Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

His life, his examples and his psychology
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KhaliL
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Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by KhaliL »

_________________________________

Umm Qirfa was an old Arab woman contemporaneous to Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. She belonged to a pagan tribe named Banu Fazara at Wadi Al-Qurra. This old woman who was also a chief of her clan was brutally killed when Muhammad’s followers raided her tribe and won over them. The incident took place almost six years after Muhammad’s Hijra to Medina.

Ibn Ishaq, the first authentic biographer of Muhammad gives the details of incidents in his Sirat Rasul Allah:

Zayd B. Haritha’s raid on Banu Fazara and the Death of Umm Qirafa

Zayd also raided Wadi-l-Qurra where he met Banu Fazara and some of his companions were killed; he himself carried wounded from the field. Ward b. Amr b. Madash one of B. Sad b. Hudhayl was killed by one of B. Badr whose name Sa’d b. Hudhaym. When Zayd came he swore that he would use no ablution until he raided B. Fazara; and when he recovered from his wounds the apostle sent him against them with a force. He fought them in Wadi-al-Qura and killed some of them. Qays b. al-Musahhar al-Yamuri killed Mas’ada b. Hakama b. Malik b. Hudhayfa b. Badr and Umm Qirfa Fatima was taken prisoner. She was a very old woman, wife of Malik. Her daughter and Abdulla b. Mas’ada were also taken. Zaid ordered Qays b al-Musahhar to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly. [Ibn Ishaq 980]

“And he killed her cruelly”. It is of the cruel method holy warriors of Muhammad espoused to kill Umm Qirfa Tabari mentions as: “By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.” [The History of al-Tabari: the Victory of Islam, trans. Michael Fishbein, vol. 8, SUNYP, 1997, pp. 95-97]

Ibn Ishaq continues:

Then they brought Umm Qirfa’s daughter and Mas’ada’s son to the apostle. The daughter of Umm Qirfa belonged to Salama b. Amr b. al-Akwa who had taken her. She held a position of honor among her people, and the Arabs used to say, “Had you been more powerful than Umm Qirfa you could have done no more”. Salama asked the apostle to let him have her and he gave her to him and he presented her to his uncle Hazn b. Abu Wahb and she bare him Abdul-Rahman . Hazn. [Ibn Ishaq 980]

As we can see in Ibn Ishaq, Umm Qirfa held high position among her people, perhaps more like Khadija bint Khuwailid, Muhammad’s first wife. “No powerful men or women could have done any more than Umm Qirfa” as quoted by Ibn Ishaq was what Arabs used to say then. What was the reason for Muhammad and his holy warriors to kill an old woman of such high rank in the most brutal way one can imagine?

The answer can be simple: Muhammad could not have tolerated a woman enjoying the leadership of any society. This old woman made a target for him for the same reason and as some sources attest Muhammad had ordered his people to display the old woman’s decapitated head throughout the streets of Medina. He should have meant it as a lesson to then Arabs and forthcoming generations that a woman should not have to be held high positions in the society.

Now, let us see whether the account of horrifying murder of Umm Qirfa is authentic or a mere fabrication as many Muslim apologists claim. The first to report this murder are Ibn Ishaq followed by Tabari, two historians Muslims often view with eyes of suspicion. The highly edited version of Ibn Ishaq (by Ibn Hisham) does contain the account of murder but not the brutal way she has been killed. It is Tabari who exposed the brutality in her killing. And not surprisingly Sahih sources (Bukhari and Muslim) are mute on the killing of Umm Qirfa. Sahih Muslim contains the account of Muslims’ raid on Banu Farza, but the horrible killing of Umm Qirfa is not mentioned in it. Since the authenticity of Sahih Muslim is not doubted by many, Muslim apologists can not deny the validity of the account of raid of Banu Fazara as given in Ibn Ishaq and Tabari but they still found room to deny the Umm Qirfa incident. It is necessary to evaluate Sahih Muslim hadith to know whether the account (of killing of Umm Qirfa) is factual:

It has been narrated on the authority of Salama (b. al-Akwa') who said: We fought against the Fazara and Abu Bakr was the commander over us. He had been appointed by the Messenger of Allah. When we were only at an hour's distance from the water of the enemy, Abu Bakr ordered us to attack. We made a halt during the last part of the night to rest and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day, the Messenger of Allah again met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah, I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca.[Sahih Muslim: Book 19, Number 4345]

There is slight variation in the Sahih Muslim account. We see in the above hadith, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam leading the raid in the place of Zaid bin Harith the person we see in Ibn Ishaq and Tabari. Leaving it aside, the account is accurate as a raid on Banu Fazara has been taken place on the order of Muhammad. Sahih Muslim attests to its authenticity. There was an old woman among the raided tribe as Sahih Muslim hadith testifies “Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat”. As we read in Sahih Muslim, this woman, her daughter and many were escaping the raid and had they reached a nearby mountain, their lives would have been spared but an arrow from Salama bin Al-Akwa one of the Muslim raiders decided their fate. The woman could not escape with her daughter and all were taken as captives. Being silent on the fate of old woman who tried to escape, Imam Muslim reports what happened to her daughter. It was a horrid fate that awaited the beautiful girl as Muhammad bought her from the person who possessed her and surrendered the ill-fated as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca.

So, what happened to the mother of this daughter who also been taken as prisoner? Sahih sources stay mute on the old woman’s fate, so there should be an alternative account to rely on for those who seek truth. And we have two historians reporting she had been killed by the followers of Muhammad. If Muslims can not suspend the account given in Sahih Muslim, they are in no position to suspend the killing of Umm Qirfa since they can not produce their own version on the fate of the old woman who had been taken as captive by Muslim raiders.
Sahih Muslim hadith brings up the fact there was an old woman among the captives of Banu Fazara. Her daughter was sold by Muhammad in slavery. This much is clear from the Sahih. But what happened to the mother of this unfortunate girl?

Ibn Ishaq and Tabari answer the question. That a noble woman of high rank who did nothing other than adhering to her traditional beliefs has been brutally killed by Islam’s holy warriors. Umm Qirfa; a martyr almost unparalleled in history...


[Courtesy: Copperkid of FFI ]
Last edited by KhaliL on Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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kenmirzz
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by kenmirzz »

Hi Mr Khalil

Reading this story really boil my blood. How can this accursed "Prophet" are held in high honor by 1.5 billion individuals and for 1300 years, Islamic scholars merely read the account of Umm Qirfa without the slightest pang of conscience?

I bet that is why divine punishment overtake them when they ( Companion and Family) themselves decapitated one another as soon as the accursed "Prophet" went to hell.

I dont know how Muslim apologist is going to defend the raid and murder except denying the authority of the report.

Humanity is but one family. :)

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by Steve Lion »

Tragedies have happened in history but the fate of this old woman suffered at the hands of muslims really upsets me. We have to consider that before saying anything about Abu Bakr Or Zaid we should understand that these people were fueled by the evil thoughts of Mohd The Paedo. Afer all a man(Abu Bakr) who was a failed father and left his six year old in the lap of a sick paedo could have saved someone else's daughter same goes for Zaid, after all he also had to surrender his wife to his esteemed foster father. Shame on Muslims and their history.
"Seek the truth and the truth will set you free" - Jesus

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by xTruthseeker »

I wish I could remember the "reason" behind what my tafsir (exegesis) teacher at Al Huda told us about this issue.
This is barbaric.
No one deserves to suffer in such a way.
As Dr. Johnson said: "God himself sir, does not propose to judge man till the end of his days. Why should you and I?"

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gupsfu
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by gupsfu »

The fact that they went through so much trouble to kill a non-believer in such a cruel way is evidence that those who followed Muhammad's teachings did not regard non-believers as human beings. Such Islamic mindset has not changed even to this day. That's why they still prefer to execute their victims by slow decapitation using a blunt knife rather than instantly killing them with a bullet.

These Islamists are truly sub-animals who need to be completely wiped off the face of the Earth.
"Is there anybody out there? Just nod if you can hear me." ~ Roger Waters

yeezevee
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by yeezevee »

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/08/21/ ... -mohammed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Copper Kid did a Cartoon story on that in the above link...

yeezevee

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KhaliL
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by KhaliL »

yeezevee wrote:http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/08/21/ ... -mohammed/

Copper Kid did a Cartoon story on that in the above link...

yeezevee
Hi yeezevee,

I added the link in my courtesy to Copperkid. My article was based on his comic presentation of the story. You can read the article in Wikiislam too. Here is the link: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Story_of_Umm_Qirfa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards
KF

yeezevee
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by yeezevee »

You can read the article in Wikiislam too. Here is the link: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Story_of_Umm_Qirfa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards
KF


Islamic Wiki Says
...The highly edited version of Ibn Ishaq (by Ibn Hisham) does contain the mention of the murder but not the brutal way in which she was killed. It is Tabari who exposed the brutality of her killing. And not surprisingly, Sahih sources (Bukhari and Muslim) are mute in regards to the killing of Umm Qirfa. Sahih Muslim does contain an account of the Muslim raid on Banu Farza, but the sadistic killing of Umm Qirfa is not mentioned. Since the authenticity of Sahih Muslim is not doubted by many, Muslim apologists cannot deny the validity of the accounts of the raid as given by Ibn Ishaq and Tabari if they are found to be similar..
I am so glad to read your posts/articles in ffi dear KhaliL . Copper kid did a great job with many of his cartoons. In these modern times with these modern weapons war with Islam having "weapons of mass destruction" in the hands of Muhammad following young Muslim men who have little or no common sense and willing die for the sake of Islam_Muhammad_ Allah is is unthinkable. In fact it will be Millions of innocent Muslims that will be victims of such tragic war. So the only alternative left is educating Muslims and non-Muslims with early Islamic History and Quran.

I didn't know the original story of How brutally this old lady Umm_Qirfa was killed by these Muhammad following roguish thugs until I saw that Copper Kid's Cartoons. The story from these Apologetic Muslims is as mentioned in Wiki .. This is what I knew from the book of "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (THE SEALED NECTAR)"
An expedition led by Abu Bakr As-Siddiq or Zaid bin Haritha was despatched to Wadi Al-Qura in Ramadan 6 Hijri after Fazara sept had made an attempt at the Prophet’s life. Following the morning prayer, the detachment was given orders to raid the enemy. Some of them were killed and others captured. Amongst the captives, were Umm Qirfa and her beautiful daughter , who was sent to Makkah as a ransom for the release of some Muslim prisoners there. Umm Qirfa’s attempts at the Prophet’s life recoiled on her, and the thirty horsemen she had gathered and sustained to implement her evil scheme were all killed.

Memoirs of the Noble Prophet [pbuh] by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri. You may like to glance at it., It is freely available as pdf file at http://www.2muslims.com/books/alraheeq.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am sure if one goes through that Horrible early Islamic history starting from the year 621: First pledge at Aqaba to the year 732 The battle of Tours in France one will find thousands of such Brutal stories as that of "Umm_Qirfa". That is just 100 year of Islamic history. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 11&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Through out the Islamic history the Gazis, the Shahids, the Jihadis of have always used the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) injunction that is TERROR, MASSACRE, DESTRUCTION & EXTORTION as a means of imposing Islam or enslavement. On that note let me add some stories from Hadiths :
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).”
The Raid on Bani al-Mustaliq by Muhammad-December, 627CE:

Bani al-Mustaliq was a branch of the Khozaa (Jewish) tribe. Two months after Muhammad returned from Dhu Qarad campaign, Allah suddenly told him that B. al-Mustaliq, under the leadership of Haritha b. Abi Dirar was mobilizing forces against him. B. al-Mustaliq were friendly to Muhammad but the rumour was spread that B. al-Mustaliq were now joining with the Quraysh to launch an attack against the Muslims. The Muslims even killed a man from B. al-Mustaliq alleging him to be a spy. On this pretext Muhammad rallied all the fighting men around him to assail the B. al- Mustaliq. B. al-Mustaliq were a prosperous Jewish clan who had immense wealth and property, and after the successful ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Medina the B. al-Mustaliq Jews took all precautionary measures to prevent such an invasion on them. They sought help from other clans as well. Muhammad gave no opportunity to this clan to embrace Islam before facing ethnic cleansing. On previous occasions, he used the rule that the infidels be given a three days reprieve to decide whether to accept Islam or face liquidation.
Sahih Muslim on this raid:

Book 019, Number 4292: Ibn ‘Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi’ inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi’ said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.
Further confirmation of this sudden pillage is referred in Sahih Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717: Narrated Ibn Aun:

I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn ‘Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn ‘Umar was in that army.
Ali b. Talib killed a few wounded B. al-Mustaliq people; among them were Malik and his son. Muhammad seized their cattle herd, took many as captives and divided them among the Jihadists. Two hundred families were taken as captives, two thousand camels and five thousand sheep and goats, as well as a huge quantity of household goods were taken as booty. Juwayriah, the young, beautiful and vivacious daughter of B. al-Mutaliq chief was one of those captives. The household goods were sold in an auction to the highest bidders. During the battle a Muslim was mortally wounded by another Muslim by accident. Muhammad allowed the Jihadists to rape the B. Mustaliq women captives. Here is a Hadith from Sahih Bukhari:Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459: Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, “We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, ‘How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us?” We asked (him) about it and he said, ‘It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.”
After raping his captive-girl, Said al-Khudri took this young girl to the nearest slave market for a quick sale. Here is the continuation of the above story, as told by al-Waqidi (vol.i, p.413) and excerpted by Rodinson: “A Jew said to me: ‘Abu Said, no doubt you want to sell her as she has in her belly a baby by you.’ I said: ‘No; I used the ‘azl.’ To which he replied [sarcastically]: ‘Then it was lesser child-murder!’ When I repeated this story to the Prophet he said: ‘The Jews lie. The Jews lie.’”
Raid against Umm Qirfa of B. Fazarah by Zayd b. Haritha/Abu Bakr-January, 628CE

When Zayd b. Haritha’s first raid at Wadi al-Qura failed, Zayd conducted several raids. In one of these he set out for a mercantile trip to Syria to do some border trading there. When he arrived at Wadi al-Qura, he again raided i but his caravan was waylaid and was attacked by B. Fazarah tribe. During the fighting B. Fazarah killed a number of Muslims including Ward b. Amr, one of Zayd’s dear comrade-in-arms. Zayd himself was wounded. After Zayd returned to Medina with his wound he vowed to avenge the death of his comrade by raiding B. Fazarah again. After his recovery from the injury Muhammad sent Zayd with an army against the B. Fazarah. He attacked them at Wadi al-Qura and inflicted heavy casualties on them. He took Umm Qirfa (her real name was Fatimah bt. Rabiah b. Badr), the wife of Malik b. Hudhayfah, the chief of B. Fazarah, as a prisoner. Umm Qirfa was a very old woman having a young and extremely beautiful daughter. She (Umm Qirfa) was the aunt of Uyeina and was married to her cousin, Malik, the uncle of Uyeina. Zayd took her daughter as a captive and ordered a Jihadi, Qays b. Mohsin to kill Umm Qirfa. Qays tied each of her legs with a rope and attached the ropes to two camels. Then he drove the camels in opposite directions thus renting her in two. Rodinson writes that Umm Qirfa was torn from limb to limb by four camels.

Two brothers from the same family were also brutally executed. When told, Muhammad fully approved this ferocious punishment meted out to a grand old lady. When Zayd brought Umm Qirfa’s daughter to Muhammad, he allocated her to Salamah b. Amr al-Akwa, a Jihadist who captured her. She belonged to a very distinguished Arab family. Then Muhammad found that one of his maternal uncles, Hazn b. Abi Wahb was eyeing on Umm Qirfa’s beautiful daughter. So he asked her owner, Salamah b. Amr b. al-Akwa, if he would give her to his (Muhammad’s) uncle. Salamah readily agreed to Muhammad’s request. This distinguished lady was then passed on to Muhammad’s uncle for his private use.
Another version of this story says that the leader of this raid was Abu Bakr b. Abi Quhafah (told by Salamah) and runs like this:

Muhammad appointed Abu Bakr as the leader of this raiding party. When Abu Bakr arrived at Wadi al-Qura, he ordered his troop to rest there; then they prayed. After prayer, Abu Bakr made a raid on B. Fazarah. The Muslims killed a number of B. Fazarah people and captured a number of their women and children. Among them was Umm Qirfa, a very old lady, wearing a worn-out piece of leather coat. With her was her young daughter, the fairest of the Arabs. Abu Bakr gave Umm Qirfa’s pretty, young and vivacious daughter to, the Jihadist, who had captured her as a booty. After Salamah b. al-Akwa returned to Medina and met Muhammad at the market place, he (Muhammad) asked Salamah to give this pretty young lass to him. Salamah told Muhammad that he liked her but had not had sex with her yet. Then he offered her to Muhammad.
Quoting Salamah, Tabari (Tabari, vol. viii, p.97) writes:


‘When I returned to Medina, the messenger of God met me in the market and said, “Salamah-how excellent the father who begot you!-give me the woman.” I said, “Messenger of God, I like her, by God, and I have not uncovered her garment.” He said nothing to me until the next day, when he met me in the market and said, “Salamah-how excellent a father begot you!-give me the woman.” I said: “Messenger of God, I have not touched her garment. She is yours, Messenger of God.” The Messenger of God sent her to Mecca, and with her he ransomed some Muslim captives who were in the hands of the polytheists.’
There is a similar Hadith from Sahih Muslim (Refer to: Sahih Muslim: Book 19, Hadith number 4345)

When Muhammad entered Mecca he granted a general amnesty to the Meccans except for eight people (or ten people, according to Ibn Sa’d). He ordered that those were to be killed even if they were found under the curtains of Kaba. Previously shedding of blood in the holy precinct was strictly forbidden by the polytheists. Muhammad proclaimed that Allah had permitted only him to cause bloodshed in the holy sanctuary, just for a few hours. Here is a Sahi Hadith from Sahhi Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 303:Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah made Mecca a sanctuary and it was neither permitted for anyone before, nor will it be permitted for anyone after me (to fight in it). And fighting in it was made legal for me for a few hours of a day only. None is allowed to uproot its thorny shrubs or to cut down its trees or to chase its game or to pick up its Luqata (fallen things) except by a person who would announce it publicly.” ‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul-Muttlib requested the Prophet, “Except Al-Idhkhir, for our goldsmiths and for the roofs of our houses.” The Prophet said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” ‘Ikrima said, “Do you know what is meant by chasing its game? It is to drive it out of the shade and sit in its place.” Khalid said, “(’Abbas said: Al-Idhkhir) for our goldsmiths and our graves.”
Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 14, Number 2678: Narrated Sa’id ibn Yarbu’ al-Makhzumi:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: on the day of the conquest of Mecca: There are four persons whom I shall not give protection in the sacred and non-sacred territory. He then named them. There were two singing girls of al-Maqis; one of them was killed and the other escaped and embraced Islam. Sarah was the freed slave-girl of one of the sons of Abd al Muttalib. Muhammad claimed that she used to molest him while he was in Mecca. It is reported that Muhammad eventually forgave Sarah. Hind bt. Utbah, the wife of Abu Sufyan b. Harb. She chewed the liver of slain Hamzah at Badr II. She accepted Islam and Muhammad pardoned her. Later, Umar killed Sarah by causing his horse to trample her at al-Abtah. Another source lists that on the day of occupation of Mecca, Muhammad commanded that six men and four women be killed. The women were: 1. Hind bt. Utbah b. Rabiah, 2. Sarah, the freed slave girl of Amr b. Hashim b. Abd al-Muttalib; she was killed (waqidi) on the day of invasion. 3. Quraybah; killed on the day of invasion, 4. Fartana escaped death and lived until the Caliphate of Uthman.
Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4321:

It is reported on the authority of Sa’b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.
Surprise Raid on B. Khatham at Talabah by Qutbah ibn Amir ibn Hadidah-August, 630CE
During this period Muhammad sent Qutbah ibn Amir at the head of twenty men to conduct a surprise raid on B. Khatamah, inhabiting Tabalah near Turbah, and no reason is given in any of the Hadiths. The Muslims killed a man who pretended to be dumb. Then they attacked the infidels while they were asleep. The Muslims slaughtered whomever they could and took a great number of camels, goats and women as booty.
Any ways, those days of Islam is over., what is needed now is mass education...

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

And he killed her cruelly”. It is of the cruel method holy warriors of Muhammad espoused to kill Umm Qirfa Tabari mentions as: “By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.” [The History of al-Tabari: the Victory of Islam, trans. Michael Fishbein, vol. 8, SUNYP, 1997, pp. 95-97]
KF what about this whole incident never took place, can we just believe everything in Tabari?

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KhaliL
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by KhaliL »

iffo wrote:
And he killed her cruelly”. It is of the cruel method holy warriors of Muhammad espoused to kill Umm Qirfa Tabari mentions as: “By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.” [The History of al-Tabari: the Victory of Islam, trans. Michael Fishbein, vol. 8, SUNYP, 1997, pp. 95-97]
KF what about this whole incident never took place, can we just believe everything in Tabari?
Read the article in full. Apart from Ibn Ishaq and Tabari, there is a Sahih Muslim Hadith too which sheds light to the incident. Are you going to scrap Imam Muslim also?


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KF

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

And he killed her cruelly”. It is of the cruel method holy warriors of Muhammad espoused to kill Umm Qirfa Tabari mentions as: “By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.” [The History of al-Tabari: the Victory of Islam, trans. Michael Fishbein, vol. 8, SUNYP, 1997, pp. 95-97]
I am talking about the above, tearing her legs apart, i don't see it ...

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KhaliL
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by KhaliL »

iffo wrote:
And he killed her cruelly”. It is of the cruel method holy warriors of Muhammad espoused to kill Umm Qirfa Tabari mentions as: “By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.” [The History of al-Tabari: the Victory of Islam, trans. Michael Fishbein, vol. 8, SUNYP, 1997, pp. 95-97]
I am talking about the above, tearing her legs apart, i don't see it ...

I have reasons to believe in the account of Tabari:

1. Ibn Ishaq mentions Umm Qirfa has been killed in a cruel way.

"Her daughter and Abdulla b. Mas’ada were also taken. Zaid ordered Qays b al-Musahhar to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly". [Ibn Ishaq]

So, she must have been killed in such a way that Tabari mentions.

2. The awful silence of Sahih Muslim hadith on the fate of Umm Qirfa: These so-called Sahih sources are notorious for staying mute on unpleasant things about Islam and Muslims. So, we can rightly assume something really horrible should have befallen Umm Qirfa.

Again; confirmation to the horrific killing of Umm Qirfa.

When I get a hint from Sahih Muslim and when there are two historians attest to the inhumane way Umm Qirfa has been killed, I am not going to trash this account as fabrication. I have disagreements with all of Islamic accounts. And it is not because I give any hoot to Imam Muslim over Tabari that I quote Sahih Muslim more often. It is only to convince Muslims like you. I would rate Tabari way above to Imam Muslim because in my opinion, Tabari is the most prominent of all Islamic historians while the other is only a compiler of accounts.

Regards
KF

iffo
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

KhaliL FarieL
I would rate Tabari way above to Imam Muslim because in my opinion, Tabari is the most prominent of all Islamic historians while the other is only a compiler of accounts.
does your rating means anything ?? Tabari also had satanic versus do you believe that?

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KhaliL
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by KhaliL »

iffo wrote:
KhaliL FarieL
I would rate Tabari way above to Imam Muslim because in my opinion, Tabari is the most prominent of all Islamic historians while the other is only a compiler of accounts.
does your rating means anything ?? Tabari also had satanic versus do you believe that?

Yes, I believe Muhammad uttered Satanic Verses. But don't fancy of a chance in hell that I will waste my time on you by lengthening this topic to Muhammad's Satanic Mutterings. NO I will not because you are a typical Muslim with nothing above the neck but a muddy pond in which sun in Zul Qarnain's times used to set...


Good night man...


KF

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

KhaliL FarieL
Yes, I believe Muhammad uttered Satanic Verses. But don't fancy of a chance in hell that I will waste my time on you by lengthening this topic to Muhammad's Satanic Mutterings. NO I will not because you are a typical Muslim with nothing above the neck but a muddy pond in which sun in Zul Qarnain's times used to set...


Good night man...

Ran away because he knew my hands were geting close to his neck and I was about to squeeze it.

I am surprised he said he believed in Satanic Verses. And he call himself athesits ?? :D Belief in Satan/Angles/God go hand in hand.
He is the one atheist on planet who beileve in Satan but not in GOD. :roflmao: Level of crookness is unbeliveable.

Show level of utter stupidity and hyprocacy. I am sure even KF childern will laugh at him.

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RichardTheLionheart
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by RichardTheLionheart »

iffo wrote:
KhaliL FarieL
Yes, I believe Muhammad uttered Satanic Verses. But don't fancy of a chance in hell that I will waste my time on you by lengthening this topic to Muhammad's Satanic Mutterings. NO I will not because you are a typical Muslim with nothing above the neck but a muddy pond in which sun in Zul Qarnain's times used to set...


Good night man...

Ran away because he knew my hands were geting close to his neck and I was about to squeeze it.

I am surprised he said he believed in Satanic Verses. And he call himself athesits ?? :D Belief in Satan/Angles/God go hand in hand.
He is the one atheist on planet who beileve in Satan but not in GOD. :roflmao: Level of crookness is unbeliveable.

Show level of utter stupidity and hyprocacy. I am sure even KF childern will laugh at him.
What KhaliL means is he belives the Satanic Verses were originally in the Koran when it was convinient for Mohammed for them to be there, and later taken out when he didn't have to appease worshippers of Manat, Al-lat and al-Uzza.

KhaliL does not mean he believes in Satan. :roll:
Ex-Muslims needed to answer my questions: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4519 Serious posts only.

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

RichardTheLionheart
What KhaliL means is he belives the Satanic Verses were originally in the Koran when it was convinient for Mohammed for them to be there, and later taken out when he didn't have to appease worshippers of Manat, Al-lat and al-Uzza.

KhaliL does not mean he believes in Satan.
blah blah blah , :tongueout: its to late for this cover up ..one crook trying to cover others ass ........... nice try

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expozIslam
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by expozIslam »

iffo wrote:
RichardTheLionheart
What KhaliL means is he belives the Satanic Verses were originally in the Koran when it was convinient for Mohammed for them to be there, and later taken out when he didn't have to appease worshippers of Manat, Al-lat and al-Uzza.

KhaliL does not mean he believes in Satan.
blah blah blah , :tongueout: its to late for this cover up ..one crook trying to cover others ass ........... nice try
We know how much dishonest you are. Ah well, what more can be expected from the followers of a pedophile criminal
“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by iffo »

expozIslam
We know how much dishonest you are. Ah well, what more can be expected from the followers of a pedophile criminal
Welcome back, I hope you were able to collect all the pieces of your ass that were blown away in your last thread "Muhammad the hypocrate part 2".

expozIslam
We know how much dishonest you are. Ah well, what more can be expected from the followers of a pedophile criminal
Nice counter argument, I guess had nothing much to defend .... that's ok..... atleast you did not waste my time like RichardTheLionheart with double talk crape.......... have a nice weekend ..

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RichardTheLionheart
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Re: Umm Qirfa; a Martyr Unparalleled in History

Post by RichardTheLionheart »

iffo wrote:
RichardTheLionheart
What KhaliL means is he belives the Satanic Verses were originally in the Koran when it was convinient for Mohammed for them to be there, and later taken out when he didn't have to appease worshippers of Manat, Al-lat and al-Uzza.

KhaliL does not mean he believes in Satan.
blah blah blah , :tongueout: its to late for this cover up ..one crook trying to cover others ass ........... nice try
Stop making yourself look foolish, it's painful to watch.
Ex-Muslims needed to answer my questions: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4519 Serious posts only.

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