Illogical beliefs of other religions

[Ram]

hahahaha, so funny seeing ram, ramming his pinhead on walls

Follower of Paedophile Prophet Muhammad has spoken. Here is a person who follows a religion which sanctions paedophilia. He also believes in the Quran, the Manual of Terrorism.

Please answer the following Questions:-
(1) If Islam preaches tolerance,why there is no freedom of religion in any Muslim country?
(2) If Islam preaches equality of men and women, why are women treated like animals in the lands of submitters?
(3) Why do Muslim old farts love to marry little girls young enough to be their granddaughters?

The list is endless, but answer to these questions will do for now.

[Ram]

were you not into judaism?

Yes, I still am, I was just commenting on the absurdity of Hinduism, and how Chinese religions interest me more.

Ram, I am ex-muslim.

The issue is not that the Chinese religions interests you more, I have no problem with that. You find that Hinduism is absurd, I have no problem with that. I am just expressing my opinion about your opinion.

[Ram]

Illogical beliefs in Hinduism:-
To start with, Hinduism is not a single religion as such. Over six different beliefs are loosely tied together in Hinduism. To look at the illogical beliefs, one has to look at it from religious, social and personal point of views.

That is the beauty of Hinduism. Unlike Christianity or Islam, there is room for divergent ways of worshipping God. Christianity precahes that one who does not accept Jesus Christ as his saviour will rot in hell for ever. This is extremely evil doctrine. I know instances, where teachers have told little children that parents will go to hell because they are not Christian. This is frightening for little children, it is utterly barbaric. Do you think this is how children should be frightened? Christian God is just evil as Allah.

Islam is even worse. The Holy Quran preaches that anyone who is not a Muslim must be killed, which is absolutely evil. There is no such doctrine in Hinduism.

Religious point of view - Here I should be talking about scriptures. But, fortunately, a vast majority of Hindus do not even read any of the scriptures, leave alone following them. To go one step further, I dare say, most of the Hindus do not even know of their scriptures.

How many Christians have read the Bible. I dare say no more than 1%. I live in majority Christian country. I can tell you very few people have read the Bible. Not only that, most of the people couldn't care less. The criticism of Bible in the newspapers and magazines is rampant, this is what happens in free countries like the USA and Canada. Likewise, in India, people are free to express themselves. The people will listen to both sides of the issue. People in India are free to criticize the religion, even scriptures. Looks like, you rather wish people start killing each other because there is disagreement about religion. Thank God, this does not happen in India. In Pakistan, people get killed just because someone suspects that the Quran has been insulted. Is that how you want Hindus to behave?

Hindu scriptures had been revered, criticised, condemned, burned, trampled upon and completely ignored at many instances without attracting any protest from Hindus. For example, I have seen an orator talk hours about the beauty of Ramayana on a stage in a town; couple of weeks later, an other orator tearing apart the same Ramayana in criticism, from the same town, from the same stage. I marveled watching the same audience nodding their heads in approval! The bottom line is, a vast majority of Hindus don't care. So, I am not going to bother criticising the Hindu scriptures; I leave it to others.

This is what we call freedom of expression. People in the West understand that. This is exactly what happens in the West. The Bible is criticized, burnt and desecrated. No body gets worked over it.

Social - 1. The caste system. The Hindu society wants to maintain the caste system. The Govt. is not taking any concrete steps to eradicate the caste system, for, the society wants to keep it that way.It is curse only in India. The Hindus living overseas tend to come out of it in a couple of generations as can be seen amoung the Hindus In Fiji.

The caste system is very old. It has weakened in the big cities. Inter caste marriages are common in big cities, but not in the smaller cities or the country side. But it will change, it will take many generations.

2. The condition of widows. Treating widows as bad omen is really bad. The widows are vulnerable to all kinds of social evils.

It is true, widows are treated very badly. But legally, widows are allowed to reamarry and many do, specially in big cities. Nowadays, many women work in India, therefore, the status of widows has changed in the big cities like Mumbai.

3. Pride in being a vegetarian. I have come across so many Hindus who take pride and think they are superior due to their vegetarian diet. I know so many vegans in the western society who do not display similar attitudes.

This is a trivial critcism, more like nitpicking.

4. Living in the past. I have come across so many Hindus who take pride in the past glories of India with out paying any attention to the present problems. When pointed out, they get angry.
There will be more to add to this list. I wrote down the ones I can think of at present.

You are righ about the fact Hindus take pride in the past at the expense of present day problems.

Personal - at the personal level, most Hindus don't take criticisms positively. Although it is improving for the better, more has to be achieved. Desire to belong to a caste group is an indication of the Hindu's insecurity feeling.

On one hand you criticize Hindus for not caring when their scriptures are condemned and again criticizing them for not taking criticism positively. Isn't this is oxymoronic?

[raghy]

Hi Ram,

I am very glad that you considered to acknowledge most of the points raised by me. I quite agree with you about the improvements taking place. I sincerely hope that improvements taking place in the large cities may soon reach the smaller towns and villages, because more than 70% of India's population are distributed in the small towns and villages.

On one hand you criticize Hindus for not caring when their scriptures are condemned and again criticizing them for not taking criticism positively. Isn't this is oxymoronic?

No. I separated my points in different sections. When the scriptures are criticised, most Hindus do not care because, a) They have not read those scriptures in detail to present a counter debate OR b) they don't take the criticism of scriptures as personal criticism.

On the other hand, when faced a personal criticism, the requirement to respond puts pressure on the individual. When they fail to come up with an appropriate reply, they tend to get annoyed or angry. They think it is unfair to be criticised, again due to lack of knowledge in most cases.

P.S - Ram, I am only talking about the illogical beliefs in Hinduism. If you talk about Christianity and Islam in the same discussion, then the whole discussion will become pointless. Such discussions have taken place in many threads.This thread is started for the purpose of listening to the illogical beliefs in religions other than Islam. I wish to remind you that I requested for this thread to be moved from 'Muslims and Ex-Muslims only' forum, so that every one may take part in this thread. Let us say, this thread is more like a self- criticising thread. So, I humbly request you to refrain from criticising Islam in this thread. If you like to criticise Christianity, then please start a post in this same thread picking Christianity apart. But, in our discussion, I request you to discuss Hinduism only, please.

[LCD]

I find hinduism to be an absolute nonsense. The major religions including Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism make sense even sometime Islam makes sense. Hinduism does not make sense at all. Someone imbecile must be its inventor. I find it shocking that it is still prevalent in the 21st century.

Even sometime islam makes sense !!

Looks we have a jerk in the block

Tell me then, jerk, what sense in the following rubbish, exactly:

11: When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

12: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
[Deuteronomy 25:11-12 ]

Ahmed, normally, I would say that you had clipped the quote.
This of course is not true. what you've done is basically foudn the most vague wording. So I'll explain it as easily as possible: This is a law Code, and it is fairly strict about Justice. Members of the Isrealite community were to follow certain rules, the most serious rule being this:

Deuteronomy 25
Deuteronomy 25

1 When men have a dispute, they are to take it to court and the judges will decide the case, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty.

2 If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, 3 but he must not give him more than forty lashes. If he is flogged more than that, your brother will be degraded in your eyes.

Okay, So any domestic dispute is decided by a Court of LAW, and NOT by personal Vendetta or Revenge (Something Muslims don't understand because they clearly love being the Hand of Allah.)

So as Deuteronomy 25 states, you take it to court you don't fight. And As the verse states, this is an example where two men are fighting:

11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

1. These men broke the law code, by not taking their case to court.
2. They then set about Beating the crap out of each other.
3. And in such an instance, if a woman comes to rescue her husband by kicking his assailant or grabbing his assailant's "Balls", then there is a punishment.

Please note that that is the only penalty. I think it's a fair one. Secularly speaking, most secularlist believe people should not take the law into their own hands.

Now, you can say its brutal, but Please list a single example of it happening?

Thanks for Playing

[Ram]

Hi Ram,

I am very glad that you considered to acknowledge most of the points raised by me. I quite agree with you about the improvements taking place. I sincerely hope that improvements taking place in the large cities may soon reach the smaller towns and villages, because more than 70% of India's population are distributed in the small towns and villages.

On one hand you criticize Hindus for not caring when their scriptures are condemned and again criticizing them for not taking criticism positively. Isn't this is oxymoronic?

No. I separated my points in different sections. When the scriptures are criticised, most Hindus do not care because, a) They have not read those scriptures in detail to present a counter debate OR b) they don't take the criticism of scriptures as personal criticism.

On the other hand, when faced a personal criticism, the requirement to respond puts pressure on the individual. When they fail to come up with an appropriate reply, they tend to get annoyed or angry. They think it is unfair to be criticised, again due to lack of knowledge in most cases.

P.S - Ram, I am only talking about the illogical beliefs in Hinduism. If you talk about Christianity and Islam in the same discussion, then the whole discussion will become pointless. Such discussions have taken place in many threads.This thread is started for the purpose of listening to the illogical beliefs in religions other than Islam. I wish to remind you that I requested for this thread to be moved from 'Muslims and Ex-Muslims only' forum, so that every one may take part in this thread. Let us say, this thread is more like a self- criticising thread. So, I humbly request you to refrain from criticising Islam in this thread. If you like to criticise Christianity, then please start a post in this same thread picking Christianity apart. But, in our discussion, I request you to discuss Hinduism only, please.

Title of this thread is Illogical beliefs of other religions, including Christianity. This is a free forum.

There is no logic in any religion. We condemn Islam not because it is illogical, we condemn it because is hateful ideology. There is also hatred in Christianity but inspite of this, today, Christians are basically very tolerant people. There is freedom of religion in most Christian countries. Hindus are also basically very tolerant, that is why there is freedom of religion in India.

This forum is for fighting Islam, not Hinduism or Christianity. Therefor there is no need to have this thread in the forum. I think this thread belongs in the Garbage Can.

[charleslemartel]

There is no logic in any religion. We condemn Islam not because it is illogical, we condemn it because is hateful ideology.

So right you are. Belief as such is illogical by definition since it is without evidence. The beliefs, for which we come across credible evidence, become facts.

[raghy]

Ram said:-

Title of this thread is Illogical beliefs of other religions, including Christianity. This is a free forum.

I am not stopping you from criticising Christianity. This is what I wrote -

I humbly request you to refrain from criticising Islam in this thread. If you like to criticise Christianity, then please start a post in this same thread picking Christianity apart. But, in our discussion, I request you to discuss Hinduism only, please.

I made a part from my writing bold so that you may read it.

Ram said:-

This forum is for fighting Islam, not Hinduism or Christianity. Therefor there is no need to have this thread in the forum. I think this thread belongs in the Garbage Can.

I beg to strongly disagree with you. This thread is started by an apostate to see how the people from other religions take criticisms. This is an important thread. In fact, I may be requesting the moderators to make this thread a sticky. This website maybe dedicated to eradicating political Islam; but this particular thread is dedicated to the criticism of religions other than Islam. I see all the persons as human beings first. If you think other religions can not accept criticisms in just in one single thread, how do you expect Muslims and Ex-Muslims to accept so many forums and 100s of threads criticising Islam?

I, personally wanted to discuss Hinduism only. That's I very politely requested you to discuss only Hinduism in our discussion.

[apostate]

This thread is started by an apostate to see how the people from other religions take criticisms.

From my experience I have seen that people who are happy criticizing other religions tend to justify their beliefs when their own religions are picked apart by providing arguments which do not seem to be logical at all. When I was a Muslim, I saw Muslims making sarcastic remarks about hindu Gods and its rituals, christianity and other religions but the same people would try to counter argue when Islam or Mohammad was criticized. For example one islamic scholar I knew, made a sarcastic remark about Krishna; saying he used to flirt with Gopis but the same man went to great length to justify Mohammad's marriage with a 6 year old toddler. Second example is Ram found me to be intelligent as long as I found problems with Islam but when I pointed out problems in hinduism, I became non-intelligent. As a matter of fact it doesn't require intelligence to see problems in our religion, it just requires common sense which is so uncommon and it requires us to keep aside our egotisms.

[Ram]

Second example is Ram found me to be intelligent as long as I found problems with Islam but when I pointed out problems in hinduism, I became non-intelligent. As a matter of fact it doesn't require intelligence to see problems in our religion, it just requires common sense which is so uncommon and it requires us to keep aside our egotisms.

Well....well. I did not criticize you because you found "problems" with Hinduism. I criticized you because you are mixing up facts - for example, you lumped the Manusmriti with scriptures. The Manusmriti is not a religious text. It is a legal code, although I admit that there are many laws which are very cruel towards the people of the low castes and women. Also, you fail to see the fact that the Indian constitution is secular which grants equal rights to people of all religions. This does not mean there is no discrimination in India. You also fail to see that a) widow marriage is legal in India and b) at least legally, discrimination based on caste is also banned.

You are also wrong because you compare Hinduism with Islam. Unlike Islam, there is nothing in any Hindu scripture which says that non-Hindus are kaffirs or infidels and will burn in hell. Today, there are 150 million Muslims live in India. As a matter of fact, inspite of discrimination, Muslims in India have thrived. Their population is 4 times bigger than in 1947, when India gained independance. There are many successful Muslims in India, Mr. Azim Premji, one of the richest Indian is a Muslim, the famous movie stars - the Khans, Shabana Azmi and Nassuridin.

There are supertitious beliefs in all religions. Christianity has many such beliefs, like the second coming of Jesus Christ; He will be reborn and the righteous will go to heaven and the rest of us will burn in hell. Moses walking on water is another supertition. There are countless such supertitious beliefs in Christianity and Judaism.

[Ram]

I, personally wanted to discuss Hinduism only. That's I very politely requested you to discuss only Hinduism in our discussion.

The title of this thread is "Illogical beliefs of other religions", that includes all religion. Besides this is an open forum. Each and every topic in the Forum takes on life of its own. Each topic spins off in every direction. This is the beauty of this Forum.

[Yohan]

I find hinduism to be an absolute nonsense. The major religions including Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism make sense even sometime Islam makes sense. Hinduism does not make sense at all. Someone imbecile must be its inventor. I find it shocking that it is still prevalent in the 21st century.

I agree with you. I took an Eastern Religions course at university and I was wondering how could anyone believe that stuff with 330 million gods, and things to do. I was like, this is the craziest religion of all. I never studied it beyond that introductory class, only Buddhism and Chinese religions interest me.

One can understand Hinduism better if one understands how it came about. Hinduism's uncountable Gods come from the innumerable ancient local pagan deities worshipped by locals all across the subcontinent. This multitude of local Gods and beliefs were later slowly absorbed into the theology and worship of the Aryans, most of it developed in the subcontinent itself and came to be based upon a trinity of Gods: the creator, the preserver and the destroyer. Almost all innumerable local Gods one gets confused about, can be extrapolated (or absorbed) into one of the three (and its consorts), mostly 'the preserver'. It is like a layered cake, with two layers!

[Yohan]

Social - 1. The caste system. The Hindu society wants to maintain the caste system. The Govt. is not taking any concrete steps to eradicate the caste system, for, the society wants to keep it that way.It is curse only in India. The Hindus living overseas tend to come out of it in a couple of generations as can be seen amoung the Hindus In Fiji.

True. If Hindus can't get rid of the arranged marriage, they are doomed to preserve the caste system.

2. The condition of widows. Treating widows as bad omen is really bad. The widows are vulnerable to all kinds of social evils.

May be.

3. Pride in being a vegetarian. I have come across so many Hindus who take pride and think they are superior due to their vegetarian diet. I know so many vegans in the western society who do not display similar attitudes.

True. Hindus view vegetarian diet as a status symbol among themselves.

4. Living in the past. I have come across so many Hindus who take pride in the past glories of India with out paying any attention to the present problems. When pointed out, they get angry.
There will be more to add to this list. I wrote down the ones I can think of at present.

True. This is typically a symptom of people with deep cultural inferiorities, complexes and sensitivities. Actually most people have some of it, but some like Hindus have a lot.

Personal - at the personal level, most Hindus don't take criticisms positively. Although it is improving for the better, more has to be achieved. Desire to belong to a caste group is an indication of the Hindu's insecurity feeling.

Hindus lack self confidence in many aspects. Confident people take criticisms positively and in stride.

[yeezevee]

Yohan says

True. Hindus view vegetarian diet as a status symbol among themselves.

True. This is typically a symptom of people with deep cultural inferiorities, complexes and sensitivities. Actually most people have some of it, but some like Hindus have a lot.

Hindus lack self confidence in many aspects. Confident people take criticisms positively and in stride.

I say Yohan was/is/will be a Hindu lol..., You will never have chance of tasting other religions dear Yohan. To boost their self confidence 90 million of them should be moved to Pakistan in an exchange program and another 90 million with Bangladesh.. Here are real Hindus..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7852837.stm

Progress is made I think they will be happy in Land of Pure..

yeezevee

[continuum]

As pointed out by Ex_muslimah, the evil caste system which is sanctioned by scriptures like Manusmriti which says that "Brahmans are born from Head of Brahmma, ... and Shudras are born from feat of God", "If a shurdra hears shlokas then molten lead should be poured into his ears" etc. Hindus say that Manusmriti is not followed by Hindus. Then why was this evil practice followed till last century by hindus with its evil effects continuing till today.

The fallacy is that you think Varna system is evil and then conclude the same. You have to look at this system from the point of view of Karma. The varna system was set up to divide religious duties accroding to one's nature or characteristics and karma. Doing one's religious duty according this division helps a soul to advance spiritually. Doing another's work results in downfall. This is the understanding. The basic principle is doing one's work without any tinge of selfishness.

Now you say Manu Smriti says molten lead is to be poured etc. However there is NOT one instance in history where any of the barbaric punishments mentioned in Smritis were ever implemented. The reason is even the Brahmins did not interpret these parts literally, instead they merely took these verses as protest from scriptures against certain activities. This is and was the orthodox position.

You can bring up all the instances of social issues in caste system, however, the scriptural understanding does NOT involve any exploitation at all. The restrictions mentioned apply only to religious rituals etc. and NOT to any secular activities or education in general. The restrictions are actually prescriptions more to be right.

2) The Women issue in hinduism
a) Widow not allowed to be re-married.

This is true.

b) Divorce not permitted.

even for men.

c) Sati

All scriptural instances of Sati is voluntary act.

d) Husband has to be considered as God by a married women and obey him in all respects.

A wife is to be respected as a Goddess too.

e) Women cannot inherit his husbands property after his death. Note: it is the indian penal law which allows a hindu women to inherit her husband property.

Where does any Hindu scripture talk about this restriction ? Even

f) Devdaasi system.

Highly misunderstood social system, NOT scriptural. However there have been cases of exploitation here too. Hindus are NOT perfect.

M.S. Subulakshmi, a Brahmin religious singer, comes from a Devadasi lineage. In Hinduism arts like Bharatanatyam, music, songs etc. are seen as devotional and danvcers are highly respected in religious society, even today.

3) Funny Hindu unscientific beliefs like
a) According the ‘center of the universe’ status to the earth, considering the sun and the moon as planets and listed them as nava grahas - the nine planets.

The Sanskrit word graha comes from the word grih which means “to seize” or “to take hold of". The word does not mean planets, but means "something that influences".

I am NOT aware where Hindu scriptures say Earth is center of Universe, however it talks about bhu-mandala, which is reference to Solar System. Being observes from Earth, the ancient people charted out movements of planetary objects with respect to Earth. So their explanation is with respect to Earth. There is nothing inherently illogical about geocentric theory, it is merely a point of view.

b) Eclipse being considered as inauspicious event. Lunar and Solar eclipse occurs because of rahu and Ketu.

This come from belief in astrology. In astrology Rahu and Ketu are imaginary points used in calculating eclipses.

c) Feeding the crows to overcome the evil eye of Rahu.

Never heard of this. Never saw this mentioned in any Hindu scripture.

d) Considering cow as sacred and belief that it contains crores of God's in its stomach.

Most religions generally believe God is present everywhere and that God has special presence in certain places. In Christianity it is churches and places like Bethleham etc. In Hinduism cow is considered as having special presence of God and Gods sanctifying the animal products usable in religious rituals. Again, God and Gods are present in every living being in their bodies. Every belief is unscientific as it is not proven. Some find these beliefs funny.

e) Bowing to lifeless Idols as God's which includes worshiping the vagina of Parvati and penis of Shiva.

The "lifeless idols" is again infused with special presence of God(s). When Hindus bow to them, they are bwing to the God(s), not the "lifeless matter" according to their beliefs. While there are left side tantric sects who view Shiva Lingam as sexual organs, this is NOT the view of majority Hindus. Shiva Lingam is a distinguishing symbol of God, viewed as infinite nature of God by Vedantic schools.

f) Hanuman lifting the entire mountain on his finger, swollowing the Sun and monkeys speaking like humans.

Since Hanuman is no ordinary being in Hindu scriptures (Some view Him as Shiva others view Him as Prana, life-force) he is able to do all things.

The story of swallowing sun seems to be local stories created for kids from amar chitra katha. I did not find this story in Hindu scriptures.

The Sanskrit word for monkeys is Kapi. However, to my knowledge Ramayana uses the word Vanara for a species of intelligent apes that walk upright like human beings and are of the size of human beings. This could be reference to one of the species in evolution tree, NOT modern day monkeys.

g) Shiva being God cannot recognize his own son and kills him by be-heading him and then cannot re-store his original head but requires the head of elephant to bring him to life.

Sometimes God(s) acts as though He(they) is(are) ignorant. Since He knew the future of the boy, He asked other Gods to bring the first animal head they see. That is why the specific instructions here.

[continuum]

These does not seem to be scientific explanations to be me by any standards instead it is skulduggery by any common sense. This is what I had said justifying the illogicalities instead of accepting that they are illogical beliefs.

Do you even know the definition of logic ? People who do not know what is logic, should not talk about logic. There is nothing "illogical" about this belief although one may call this belief as unscientific.

As for the explanation given by her, it is well known among Hindus in general that Rahu and Ketu are imaginary points in Hindu astrology. Hindus were NOT ignorant of heliocentric and geocentric theories. Refer Aryabhatta and other Hindu works. Some of these Hindu scriptures which contain references to geocentric theories are dated to the same time.

[AhmedBahgat]

Second example is Ram found me to be intelligent as long as I found problems with Islam but when I pointed out problems in hinduism, I became non-intelligent. As a matter of fact it doesn't require intelligence to see problems in our religion, it just requires common sense which is so uncommon and it requires us to keep aside our egotisms.

hahaha, well, you have proven that most of the goons in here are nothing but a bunch of manipulated and confused double faced freaks

[skynightblaze]

This is an interesting thread. I am a born hindu but atheist by religion since 18 years of age howeever .2-3 years back for a month or so i defended hinduism when muslims used to ask me questions.I could answer them satisfactorily be showing them similarities in their own religion but deep down i knew i was not able to defend it and i realized that i was defending the indefensible. I had to invent or attach some meanings to defend it and thats when i realized that i am fooling myself . Thats why i gave up on hinduism and decided to have no religion.

Personally i dont think religion is necessary to tell me what is good and what is bad. I can do that easily myself.There are flaws in the hindu religion which i agree . There are some evil teachings that need to be condemned in hinduism but these teachings are not restricted to hinduism.

Every single religion has evils in it .No religion is logical . We should reject all the religions . There are some good parts and some bad parts in each religion. We as individuals should gather the wisdom of the past but at the same time reject their ignorance and evolve as better individuals . This is how we would mature into intellectual human beings.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Second example is Ram found me to be intelligent as long as I found problems with Islam but when I pointed out problems in hinduism, I became non-intelligent. As a matter of fact it doesn't require intelligence to see problems in our religion, it just requires common sense which is so uncommon and it requires us to keep aside our egotisms.

hahaha, well, you have proven that most of the goons in here are nothing but a bunch of manipulated and confused double faced freaks

Well you're first in line. How often have you embarrassed yourself here?

[truth seeker]

I, personally wanted to discuss Hinduism only. That's I very politely requested you to discuss only Hinduism in our discussion.

The title of this thread is "Illogical beliefs of other religions", that includes all religion. Besides this is an open forum. Each and every topic in the Forum takes on life of its own. Each topic spins off in every direction. This is the beauty of this Forum.