France Invaded

[iffo]

Marie
why are you soooo interested in seeing Americans forgive Osama Bin Laden?

Lets see is it because killing off 3,0000 Americans is seen as something holy in your mind?

Not only you are evil but STUPID as well. Who the **** is saying forgive Osama. You have any freaking brain in your head.

I am saying you can not forgive these guys, so don't talk big about forgiving your enemies. Get it ...or I say again.

If you so believe in forgiving....... then release all the prisoners from jail and lock the prison becasue everybody is forgiven ................... moron

[HollowScar]

Hey Miss Marie,

Isn't it beautiful when Muslims are pigging out and having orgies after fasting during Ramadan.

I feel sorry that you would stoop so low. When I left I was filled with hate too, and I screwed up my relation with a friend of mine. We don't face each other anymore, even if we are in the same class. You probably won't understand the feeling.

As for muslims "pigging out", they are starving themselves for the sake of the poor. They are then supposed to donate in this month. They don't have Christmas, with a pagan figure, where people overspend their credit cards, and sit with huge debts.

As for "orgies", may I make a comment? What the heck is going in your head? Are you that fueled with hate? Seriously, I was expecting better from you. Intercourse is a normal thing, so by having it some other time, when people are not fasting, is wrong, then what is right?

I don't use the fact that some Catholic priest rape little children to rub it in the face of Christianity, then why should you?

Isn't it beautiful when the crime and road accident rate go up during Ramadan or some other Muslim holiday because people are irritated from fasting all day long.

Are we having any problems here? North America has the highest crime rate, where 1 in about 5 women get raped in the USA. Now this is stats, and I don't use that to blame Christians. So are you just pulling this of from the back of your head, or are you actually using good resources?

Isn't it beautiful when many Muslims are starving and have to live off the 2% wealthy Muslims give them.

The governments policy has nothing to do with religion. People starve, and if the government is too corrupted to not have a good welfare system, then religion does it's best. Oh, shouldn't you be thanking your government which has some atheists in it, for having a good economical system? After all, you get to buy a flat screen tv, while paying taxes that go to war, and also donate.

Isn't it beautiful when Muslim Arabs treat non-arab Muslims like sh*t.

Where in Islam does Allah say to Arabs to treat non arabs like sh*t? So it is a bit unfortunate that arabs have money from oil, and use foreigners as slaves who make much less than minimum wage, but that is the government problem.

I do not defend Islam because I am biased, I defend it because it helped me shape my morals when I was growing up. If I am one good example of a person, then Islam made me that way. I only left because it was not the truth. When you have a conversation again, at least be logical, and use facts, to shut me up. When you take things out of proportion, I have to take the time, and reply to it, which can be time consuming.

[HollowScar]

Doesn't every religion do that?

Yes, but there is a psychological feeling of peace, when you pray amongst others. I don't know how to explain this to you, but its like a huge load is lifted of your chest. Now, this is entirely psychological, but you can see how when we look for redeption, we can get it in different ways.

Why would you need Islam or be a Muslim to do those things?

You don't have to, but to each his own. Some people find inner peace this way, some people find it the other way.

Not only you are evil but STUPID as well. Who the **** is saying forgive Osama. You have any freaking brain in your head.

I am saying you can not forgive these guys, so don't talk big about forgiving your enemies. Get it ...or I say again.

If you so believe in forgiving....... then release all the prisoners from jail and lock the prison becasue everybody is forgiven ................... moron

It is your hate that keeps lowering you. If someone attacks you, try to defend yourself reasonably, with facts. Don't call names, and criticize, or else others won't have much respect for you.

Forgiveness is a gift among many. Even Islam teaches to forgive. Now, I recommend that you guys forgive each other, and start looking at this whole thing logically.

There are criminals out there who are dangerous. Forgiveness comes, when a criminal is really sorry, and won't do it again. Also, Christians do not have that much power to open up all jails, and it would get against their rules, which they cannot break due to their patriotism. We all like to live in a safe world, so only those people deserve forgiveness, who are willing to learn and improve. I hope you understand my point here. Thank you.

[crazymonkie_]

Yes, but there is a psychological feeling of peace, when you pray amongst others.

Yes, it's called "group identification," and it can be really, really dangerous. It's a situation where it's very easy to turn a gathering into a mob. Which is not to say that it happens all the time, or even most of the time. Just that it can. Especially if it has a galvanizing force, sense of moral assuredness and tendency to put logic aside for action or submission. Islam is not the only religion that does this by any stretch, but it's been a good many years since mobs started from churches, synagogues and Jewish temples never had the problem, and as for any of the Indian subcontinent religions? Pretty rare.

Now, this is entirely psychological, but you can see how when we look for redeption, we can get it in different ways.

Again: It's not redemption, it's group identification.

Why would you need Islam or be a Muslim to do those things?

You don't have to, but to each his own. Some people find inner peace this way, some people find it the other way.

You've already acknowledged that the core of your former religion is rotten. I realize that one big reason you're staying is that it's comfortable for you, but it's definitely not good for your mental health to constantly be around individualist-effacing events like group genuflection (I don't even consider the salat prayer because the important part is the movement, not the idea behind it) and around people who REALLY loathe what you now believe. Find somewhere else to hang out, get new friends, just don't stick around.

Also, as a side note: It's really not worth the effort to reply reasonably to iffo. Sometimes I like to indulge in a fantasy of all people being able to understand logic and come to reasonable conclusions based on evidence, but I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's simply not going to happen. As the saying goes, you can't save them all.

[skynightblaze]

Dear HollowScar ,

I have skipped the portions of your post where I completely agree with you.Fine lets move on now.

It is about interpretation. Now, if you use polygamy to feed four women, and give them happiness, then who is stopping you to do just that. Unfortunately many misuse it. Again, Islam is one way of life, if people accept it. By that, I mean that it is not only a religion, but a culture, a tradition, and a whole bunch of morals, that pretty much come into play on a day to day basis.

Polygamy is permitted by islam.Islam doesnt say that you can practice polygamy only in cases where you can help widows.That condition isnt necessary so I dont understand how you can say that humans are misusing the law . Had quran said clearly that polygamy is to be practiced only if you can help widows then you would have a point. Why didnt quran clearly lay such a condition? Would the muslims be able to misuse in that case? Now its a different story if muslims misuse the law even when quran clarifies it but in that case religion cannot be blamed but the humans . In our case islam doesnt lay any restrictions and hence islam is to be blamed.

I dont deny islam has become a culture and a way of life. I want to ask you whether its desirable to have islam as a way of life in general when you have so many bad things in it?I pointed out the problem with that.Accepting islam as a way of life comes with disadvantages i.e you cannot convince people that they shouldnt follow the bad parts because you yourself have accepted islam as a way of life. That is the point I am trying to make.

True, but if people choose to take verses of self defense, and read that martyrs go to heaven by dying in self defense, then they choose to misguide themselves by causing death of innocents, then are they not brainwashed? Add to that the concept of the raisins, which can be misunderstood for virgins, and you have a political war in the name of religion, where the terrorists kill themselves by being naive, and the leaders benefit.

Whether the martyrs are misguided or they are the ones who follow true islam you will come to know after you read my relevant post below where I will address the issue of Jihad.

I agree with all your post here but even in the west some muslims become terrorists. Its not that each and every muslim in the west is innocent. So now acceptance of islam as a way of life is harming mankind by producing only a fraction of people amongst muslims in the west and other countries who become beasts and all because of acceptance of islam. Should we still accept islam as a way of life in general ? I already said handful of sinners amongst muslims who blindly follow the bad teachings of islam are sufficient to cause heavy casualties.

Again, how many mullahs in the west give the orders? Not many. Their are some bad apples, who fueled with hatred, choose to use religion as an excuse. Now, what you say can be used against every religion. Now, here in the west, many homosexuals feel discriminated, and are fought against, so will you consider that as a bad action, or does your sympathy only go towards the bigger problems of mass destruction?

Those mullahs give bad orders because they are inspired by the religion of islam. Doesnt quran prescribe hate for nonbelievers?

Here are the verses:

3:110
Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

This verse is fuelling hate for people of the book. Look what it says . Now tell me if the imam or mullah tells the muslims that they are superior and the people of the book are inferior what is inspiring them? Also please dont bring the context excuse here since quran is for all times i.e these verses are valid even today.


48:29
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

See again? Is the mullah wrong if he is spewing hate against non believers?

98:6
Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.


Is this love?

8:55

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

What is this?

[007:176]
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

So a disbeliever is compared to a panting dog? Is this not enough for hate and insult?

007:179
Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

So disbelievers are like cattle?


Now tell me if the mullah preaches hate in the west against disbelievers is it just the mullahs fault or is it the fault of islam too? Can anyone dare to say that mullahs dont follow their religion properly? Those some who follow these teachings are true muslims. Also what I say cannot be used against every religion unless the followers do damage as muslims have been doing.We dont see followers from other religion engaging in preaching hate in their places of worship or blowing up public places. I dont disagree that there are some bad parts in other scriptures too but that doesnt give islam the license to have them.I would say both are bad and not just islam but however crimes committed in the name of religion by people from other religions are very few as compared to what muslims do in the name of religion. You further said that homosexuals are discriminated in the west. If they are then its wrong . ITs their life and they can live the way they want. None should interfere . ITs most excellent wrong to dictate them what sexual preference they should have.

[skynightblaze]

There are two jihads. The higher and the lower one. The higher jihad is when every muslim wakes up in the morning, and tries to be the best muslim he can until night. It is the struggle against lust, greed, lies, modesty, swearing, and such. It is the struggle to be a good muslim. The lower jihad is the war of self defense. If anybody comes between you and your religion, you are supposed to defend yourself.

Then what do you say about the following quotes?

9.29.
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

DO you think thats self defense? Quran does ask you to fight those who fight you but its not the only type of fighting that is prescribed for you. Offensive fighting that is Jihad is prescribed for you too.Lets examine this topic in detail now.This verse orders the believers to FIGHT TILL ISLAM RULES ALL .Thats not self defense .HAd it meant self defense it would have said so . One doesnt require to make someone believe in his religion for self defense. Thats pure offensive fighting.

How about this verse?

[047:035]
So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds.

If fighting is just self defense then why does this verse tell the muslims to not to maintain peace when they have the upper hand? When you have the upperhand the situation is bound to be well in your control but still why should one attack the opponent? See its not just self defense but also offensive fighting that you are prescribed.

[002:193]
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Lets us see what Ibn Kathir said about the verse 2:193 and whether it talks about allowing people to worship whatever they want as you proudly claim.

Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:

(...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.

Allah's statement:

(...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:


(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:

(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)

Ibn Kathir clearly explains that muslims are supposed to fight until the islam dominates over all the religions.I hope you agree with me that fighting them so that islam becomes dominant implies forced conversion and offensive fighting. Somewhere you said you wanted the backstory. So here Ibn Kathir tells you the back story and now its time to see what Jihad actually means. Ibn kathir talks about some hadiths . Here are they:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 125:

Narrated Abu Musa:

A man came to the Prophet and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah's cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness." The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause."



Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 65:

Narrated Abu Musa:

A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

So now tell me whats fighting in Allahs cause i.e Jihad? Does it look like self defense? Fighting so that islam becomes dominant is aggression and not self defense.

Lets see more misdeeds of Muhhamad.

Tabari VII:149

"I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, 'Who's there?' I said [lied], 'I'm a Banu Bakr.' 'So am I.' Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: 'I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.' I said, 'You will soon see!' Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad."



Ishaq:369
"Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."

Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0033:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

See the self confession terrorist prophet.!! Here in this hadith he says that he has been commanded to fight until people believe in islam.Man that is no way self defense. Thats purely aggression so do you still claim that Jihad is just self defense?Also what do you feel from the above quotes from Tabari and Ibn Ishaq?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said,“No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the ‘Isha’ prayers and if they knew the reward for these
prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl.” The Prophet
added,“Certainly I decided to order the Mu’adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then
take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.”

See what kind of a moron terrorist was Muhhamad?

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) –
"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them

Where's the self defense here?

Also see :

60.2.
If they were to get the better of you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you for evil: and they desire that ye should reject the Truth.

The verse 60:2 clearly indicates the context of chapter 60 . IT says if they slay their hands and tongues you are supposed to fight them. It also implies fighting against those who criticize your religion.

9.12.
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained

The reference to "THEIR TONGUES" clearly refers to those who fight you and those who criticize your religion . AS per quran one of the reasons why believers must fight here is criticism against their religion. The other criteria is to fight those who violate their oaths but still one of the criteria to fight is if they taunt your faith.Muhhamad himself killed lots of poets during his time who mocked or criticized him.One of them was a woman.This will also debunk you regarding your claim that islam doesnt allow anyone to attack women . I will bring them in the next post.

Also you claimed that the Jihad was spiritual but then see the following verse:

004.095
YUSUFALI: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

If Jihad can be spiritual then why does the verse say that not equal are those believers who sit at home and those who fight in cause of Allah(Jihad)? IF Jihad was spiritual then sitting home would have done the job but Jihad clearly means offensive fighting.

The conclusion is islam is a religion of terrorism.Jihad i.e offensive fighting is more important that some of the pillars of islam and hence its actually a pillar of islam eventhough not included in the 5 pillars (as per the hadith quoted by me) .Muhhamad was the first muslim terrorist and islamic terrorism that we see today started from Muhhamad.I will respond to the rest of your post after you agree with me here.

[skynightblaze]

@HollowScar


http://wikiislam.com/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... g_Mandated


You can also go through the quotes provided in this article which tell us what Jihad is all about.

[yeezevee]

It is wonderful to see HollowScar responding with startling words at viewtopic.php?p=92661#p92661 it is great response from a 19 year old, It needs a careful reading and thorough analysis of Muhammad's Islam through his point of view. . But meanwhile let me read though these links that a friend e-mailed

http://www.bangarashtra.org/index.php?o ... &Itemid=27
http://muktadhara.net/index.html

Yes Sheep will be comfortable around sheep. it is the law of nature.. But for some reason Human being is exceptional and I am not sure why? Allah knows the best.. God knows the best..

with best wishes
yeezevee

[KufirbintKufr]

First fogive Osama or people who brought down WTT, let see can you do that, can you?

Again don't preach/lecture stuff that you can not do yourself..... Again total DUMB meaningless big talk.

You may be surprised at how much forgiveness is in my heart. The people who brought down the WTC were deceived and deluded. I recognize they committed murder, but I also know they have lost their souls. For that I am sad. I was also sad when Saddam Hussein was hung. Not because he was innocent. He was very guilty. But he too is a person created by God.

There is an ancient Jewish story that says when Pharoah's army was drowned in the Red Sea (See of Reeds), the angels in Heaven were celebrating. Then they noticed God was weeping. They asked him why he was weeping and God said, "Do you not know that these were my children too?" You see, we all choose what/whom to believe. We choose whom we will serve. Those who reject the true and living God bring death upon themselves, like Islamic terrorists who destroy their own lives. God takes no pleasure in this. But He does allow us our freedom to choose.

When any soul descends to the pit of Hell, I see no reason to rejoice. The people I choose to be friends with do not hate Muslims. We pray for them, knowing that our Lord Jesus calls all to Himself, offering forgiveness and peace. I wish you that peace.

Peace, Shalom

Me too...
I am sad when I think about all those jihadis...
What a loss fo life and possibly a loss of souls too...



19 men...deceived...

I now bless their families in my heart...

Try that iffo...Bless your enemies...

[iffo]

HollowScar
It is your hate that keeps lowering you. If someone attacks you, try to defend yourself reasonably, with facts. Don't call names, and criticize, or else others won't have much respect for you.

Some people deserve it. She is puttings word in my mouth that I was happy when 3000 americans died just because I am muslim. I don't feel one bit guilty calling names in this kind a situation.

HollowScar
Forgiveness is a gift among many. Even Islam teaches to forgive. Now, I recommend that you guys forgive each other, and start looking at this whole thing logically.

There are criminals out there who are dangerous. Forgiveness comes, when a criminal is really sorry, and won't do it again. Also, Christians do not have that much power to open up all jails, and it would get against their rules, which they cannot break due to their patriotism. We all like to live in a safe world, so only those people deserve forgiveness, who are willing to learn and improve. I hope you understand my point here. Thank you.

I know what you are saying. Forgiveness is good, but it is not always possibe. Someone god forbids rapes your mother and after that she sucides, the guys says sorry I will not do it again, i will see how you can forgive him. Anyway this my last post on this topic, its been lingering too much and is irrelevant.

[ThereIs1Adonai]

ThereIs1Adonai
You may be surprised at how much forgiveness is in my heart. The people who brought down the WTC were deceived and deluded. I recognize they committed murder, but I also know they have lost their souls. For that I am sad. I was also sad when Saddam Hussein was hung. Not because he was innocent. He was very guilty. But he too is a person created by God.

There is an ancient Jewish story that says when Pharoah's army was drowned in the Red Sea (See of Reeds), the angels in Heaven were celebrating. Then they noticed God was weeping. They asked him why he was weeping and God said, "Do you not know that these were my children too?" You see, we all choose what/whom to believe. We choose whom we will serve. Those who reject the true and living God bring death upon themselves, like Islamic terrorists who destroy their own lives. God takes no pleasure in this. But He does allow us our freedom to choose.

When any soul descends to the pit of Hell, I see no reason to rejoice. The people I choose to be friends with do not hate Muslims. We pray for them, knowing that our Lord Jesus calls all to Himself, offering forgiveness and peace. I wish you that peace.

Then please try to convince your country mate who are mostly Christains to forgive them .... let see if they listen to you

It is not about ME convincing them. It is about them listening to the words of Jesus or not listening to Him. Jesus said to forgive our enemies. That doesn't mean we don't protect ourselves, however. Forgiveness is a spiritual thing. It is separate from earthly justice and is a matter of the heart. It means we should act without hate or vengeance. I realize many hate because of the wrongs done to them, or in this case our country. That is the natural thing.... to hate. Jesus calls us to a higher place. He calls us to love; even our enemies.

Now I will ask you, iffo. Can you forgive those who do not forgive Muslims for the crimes they have done? Can you pray for them and desire good for them? You see, we are all called to forgive those who do not deserve it. And in truth, none of us deserves forgiveness, or God's mercy. The very definition of mercy says it is something given where it is not deserved. Jesus said, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." Forgiveness is part of mercy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is a very hard lesson. It is against our nature to love where there has been wrong done to us. It is against our nature to love our enemies. But it is our fleshly nature that keeps us from Heaven. It is this nature that keeps us from understanding God and having relationship with Him. Jesus calls us to overcome our fleshly nature and love our enemies. Yes, this is a very difficult thing to do.

When I was young, I did not understand this, even as a young Christian. But Jesus commanded it, so when someone wronged me I would FORCE myself to pray for them. My heart may not have felt love at that time, but it was a start. Over the years I have seen so much pain and suffering of people, with rights and wrongs, and I have learned how frail and weak we humans are in this earthly flesh. It seems natural to do the wrong things that feed our greed and our flesh. We have to WORK toward holiness. We have to WORK toward the higher spiritual things Jesus taught us. And I have also learned that when we overcome our flesh, we find God; and we find peace.

I wish you this peace. And I pray Osama bin Laden will find God before it is too late. What a wretched man he is, hiding for his life because of the evil he brought to the world. He needs to know God to find peace and lay down his sword of hate.

You say I must convince other "Christians" to follow Jesus' words. That's not my job. My job is to do my best to follow Jesus' words myself. And to pray for them too. After all, they know Jesus' words too. And they must choose whether to follow them.

Peace, Shalom

[Marie]

"iffo"
Not only you are evil but STUPID as well. Who the **** is saying forgive Osama. You have any freaking brain in your head.

You are.

[Marie]

HollowScar

As for muslims "pigging out", they are starving themselves for the sake of the poor. They are then supposed to donate in this month. They don't have Christmas, with a pagan figure, where people overspend their credit cards, and sit with huge debts.

They are not starving themselves. They are prohibiting themselves from eating until a certain time. That is not the same as starvation. Starvation is going without food for days.

Yeah do not during that month. I believe wealthy Muslims do not 2% of their wealth or something like which is nothing.

As for "orgies", may I make a comment? What the heck is going in your head? Are you that fueled with hate? Seriously, I was expecting better from you. Intercourse is a normal thing, so by having it some other time, when people are not fasting, is wrong, then what is right?

That's what people who live or come from Muslim countries tell me. After the fast is over Muslim men chase after their wives.

Are we having any problems here? North America has the highest crime rate, where 1 in about 5 women get raped in the USA. Now this is stats, and I don't use that to blame Christians. So are you just pulling this of from the back of your head, or are you actually using good resources?

No I am doing this out of the back of my head, I actually did some research.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/762/ramadan-crime/

http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.a ... cleID=3746

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=139135

Where in Islam does Allah say to Arabs to treat non arabs like sh*t? So it is a bit unfortunate that arabs have money from oil, and use foreigners as slaves who make much less than minimum wage, but that is the government problem.

Arab Muslims are not allowed to marry non-arab Muslims. There are Arab Muslims who view non-arabs as inferior.

I do not defend Islam because I am biased, I defend it because it helped me shape my morals when I was growing up. If I am one good example of a person, then Islam made me that way. I only left because it was not the truth. When you have a conversation again, at least be logical, and use facts, to shut me up. When you take things out of proportion, I have to take the time, and reply to it, which can be time consuming.

I have no comment.

[HollowScar]

Yes, it's called "group identification," and it can be really, really dangerous. It's a situation where it's very easy to turn a gathering into a mob. Which is not to say that it happens all the time, or even most of the time. Just that it can. Especially if it has a galvanizing force, sense of moral assuredness and tendency to put logic aside for action or submission. Islam is not the only religion that does this by any stretch, but it's been a good many years since mobs started from churches, synagogues and Jewish temples never had the problem, and as for any of the Indian subcontinent religions? Pretty rare.

True, but still the majority of muslims are just peaceful living citizens in the west. There may be some elder in certain families who like to blame jews for controlling the media, and there may be occasional honor killings, but culture is also a part of it. In our cultures, it is pretty common to hit children, as punishment. Now this has instilled fear amongst many children, and to this day I choose not to face my father unless necessary. It happens. If Islam were to go away, then we would still have these cultures to take care of, where love marraiges are frowned upon, and love outside of family choosing, can lead to slauthering.

Again: It's not redemption, it's group identification.

Redemption can be found in many ways, but by being a part of a group, an individual finds acceptance.

You don't have to, but to each his own. Some people find inner peace this way, some people find it the other way.

You've already acknowledged that the core of your former religion is rotten. I realize that one big reason you're staying is that it's comfortable for you, but it's definitely not good for your mental health to constantly be around individualist-effacing events like group genuflection (I don't even consider the salat prayer because the important part is the movement, not the idea behind it) and around people who REALLY loathe what you now believe. Find somewhere else to hang out, get new friends, just don't stick around. [/quote]

I still consider myself a former muslim, and I have stopped praying. I am done with this religion, not because it is harsh, but because I could not find the truth in it. As for my old friends, they are still similar. They don't abuse me or anything, and I am willing to take my time, and debate them.

Also, as a side note: It's really not worth the effort to reply reasonably to iffo. Sometimes I like to indulge in a fantasy of all people being able to understand logic and come to reasonable conclusions based on evidence, but I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's simply not going to happen. As the saying goes, you can't save them all.

I can see where you are going with that, but if I was on the other end of the debate, and I was losing strong points, then I would be a bit bitter too. I just think that you guys should be a bit lineant on him, as he has taken his time to be here, to defend his religion, which not many muslims do.

Some people deserve it. She is puttings word in my mouth that I was happy when 3000 americans died just because I am muslim. I don't feel one bit guilty calling names in this kind a situation

You should be patient. I understand that some people can attack you, with harshness, but if you respond to them with harshness, they will likely use that against you.

I know what you are saying. Forgiveness is good, but it is not always possibe. Someone god forbids rapes your mother and after that she sucides, the guys says sorry I will not do it again, i will see how you can forgive him. Anyway this my last post on this topic, its been lingering too much and is irrelevant

Yes, but that person has to feel guilt. In Islam, guilt is good. This is the way you know, you have done a mistake, and feel bad about it.

Yes Sheep will be comfortable around sheep. it is the law of nature.. But for some reason Human being is exceptional and I am not sure why? Allah knows the best.. God knows the best..

Good ideology, but I don't see what my age, has to do with anything. I am just saying, that being a muslim can feel good. I have been there. Try being a muslim for one day in the west, and go for prayers and such, and you will see that, you feel like you belong. Now, this is entirely psychological, but it is tre among many.

DO you think thats self defense? Quran does ask you to fight those who fight you but its not the only type of fighting that is prescribed for you. Offensive fighting that is Jihad is prescribed for you too.Lets examine this topic in detail now.This verse orders the believers to FIGHT TILL ISLAM RULES ALL .Thats not self defense .HAd it meant self defense it would have said so . One doesnt require to make someone believe in his religion for self defense. Thats pure offensive fighting.

Well, these are what I learned as a muslim, throughout my life. Now, I see what you mean. I will use his as one of my arguements against Islam. Thank you.

Polygamy is permitted by islam.Islam doesnt say that you can practice polygamy only in cases where you can help widows.That condition isnt necessary so I dont understand how you can say that humans are misusing the law . Had quran said clearly that polygamy is to be practiced only if you can help widows then you would have a point. Why didnt quran clearly lay such a condition? Would the muslims be able to misuse in that case? Now its a different story if muslims misuse the law even when quran clarifies it but in that case religion cannot be blamed but the humans . In our case islam doesnt lay any restrictions and hence islam is to be blamed.

I dont deny islam has become a culture and a way of life. I want to ask you whether its desirable to have islam as a way of life in general when you have so many bad things in it? I pointed out the problem with that.Accepting islam as a way of life comes with disadvantages i.e you cannot convince people that they shouldnt follow the bad parts because you yourself have accepted islam as a way of life. That is the point I am trying to make.

I do not support polygamy, as I am a human being, and know that every woman deserves her own husband, and not shared. Also, according to government and stats websites, almost all the muslim countries has more male than female population. THis should be a great arguement, if you choose to debate muslims.

Thank you all for opening my eyes even more, but next time, I would appreciate if more facts were used, rather then some frivolous accusations. Every religion has flaws, and I don't think this is the topic, where I can discuss such issues. Thank you.

[HollowScar]

Hey!

They are not starving themselves. They are prohibiting themselves from eating until a certain time. That is not the same as starvation. Starvation is going without food for days.

There are many strong arguements you can bring, but does it really matter if they are starving themselves, or are just prohibiting. By prohibiting themselves some food, aren't they starving themselves for a certain time?

Yeah do not during that month. I believe wealthy Muslims do not 2% of their wealth or something like which is nothing.

I hear the same things about people in Hollywood who donate, but their donations are nothing compared to our tax payments. What can we do?

That's what people who live or come from Muslim countries tell me. After the fast is over Muslim men chase after their wives.

That's bizzare. Men are men. So, if you imprison a man from abstaining sex, isn't he going to be hornier? I don't know about other men, but I won't chase after my wife (not married yet), but embrace her. Yeah, maybe it is because I am a bit more civilized on certain aspects.

No I am doing this out of the back of my head, I actually did some research.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/762/ramadan-crime/

http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.a ... cleID=3746

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=139135

Interesting. Were these men even muslims? Was this true for the majority of muslim countries? These are some questions that need to be answered. Now I can show you links on crimes increasing during Christmas, and New Years, but lets face it, what can we accomplish from this?

Arab Muslims are not allowed to marry non-arab Muslims. There are Arab Muslims who view non-arabs as inferior.

I know that. Some countries are much more stricter than other, so when you say Arab muslims, you are being way too general. I know a person whose father is an Arab, and his mother is Indian. Now if Arabs have racism, what can we do? At least us guys can take a petroleum degree from the west, and get respect, and money for it. There are laborers working for about $7 a day. Facts of life, huh.

I have no comment.

We are not having a press conference here. Every religion has flaws, and deviates us from the truth. Just because Christianity is much lighter does not mean it is the truth. I left Islam for a reason. Now, I cannot find to truthh in any other religion. What makes you think you are on the right path?

[skynightblaze]

I do not support polygamy, as I am a human being, and know that every woman deserves her own husband, and not shared. Also, according to government and stats websites, almost all the muslim countries has more male than female population. THis should be a great arguement, if you choose to debate muslims.

Thank you all for opening my eyes even more, but next time, I would appreciate if more facts were used, rather then some frivolous accusations. Every religion has flaws, and I don't think this is the topic, where I can discuss such issues. Thank you.

The argument that world has more female population than male population is from Zakir Naik a specialized liar. Actually if you consider age group wise the population of males between 15-64 is more than the females . All the arguments presented by Naik are debunked in the following link.Proper sources have been supported to back the data.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... lygamy.htm


Also I like your approach . You ask for proofs and without it you wont believe. Please stay the same way. I really appreciate. Dont believe a single statement written here unless proof is provided for it.Same goes for muslims who tell you that Muhhamad attacked people because they attacked him. ITs a lie. Ask them to provide proof for their arguments.I will present counter arguments to defeat them too.


I will soon show you how islam allowed attacking women too. Muhhamad killed a woman called Asma because she used to criticize him. He also allowed muslims to attack the women just because they were from pagans. Ofcourse I am going to provide proofs to back my claims here.

[HollowScar]

The argument that world has more female population than male population is from Zakir Naik a specialized liar. Actually if you consider age group wise the population of males between 15-64 is more than the females . All the arguments presented by Naik are debunked in the following link.Proper sources have been supported to back the data.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... lygamy.htm

I think I liked Naik when I was a muslim. It was only several years ago, I knew about him, and recently found out that he outdid Ahmed Deedat in such a short time. However, I found three mistakes from him. The first one is regarding polygamy, where he stated that there were more females, without any research. The next one is where he talked about the Earth being like an Ostrich's egg, which in arabic, was actually talking about the way the ostrich buries the egg, an flattens the sand on top of it, proposing a flat earth theory. The third mistake was, how he claimed that the sun and the moon had an orbit, which is false, as the sun does not have anything to orbit around, but rather it rotates. I am pretty sure that there are many flaws, but he chooses to ignore the details. He looks for science, and he gets it.

Also I like your approach . You ask for proofs and without it you wont believe. Please stay the same way. I really appreciate. Dont believe a single statement written here unless proof is provided for it.Same goes for muslims who tell you that Muhhamad attacked people because they attacked him. ITs a lie. Ask them to provide proof for their arguments.I will present counter arguments to defeat them too.

I am not that kind of person. I believed in religion for a long time. I believed in Jinn, aliens, and what not. I am one of those guys that would not be arrogant, and pray to God thinking, that I would be rewarded good in the end. Everyone who heard in my school, was surprised as I was the one that prayed a lot, and was one of the least likely guys to leave. There are muslims who are much worse than I am not, and they still hung on to their faith. One guy actually said that he had a beer the previous day, and whatever happened was between his God and him. My philosophy, is to do whatever brings you close to God.

I did believe in Jesus, and asked him for help, several nights, but got none. I am not an ignorant, so I do take the first step ahead towards something, and yet found nothing much.

I will soon show you how islam allowed attacking women too. Muhhamad killed a woman called Asma because she used to criticize him. He also allowed muslims to attack the women just because they were from pagans. Ofcourse I am going to provide proofs to back my claims here.

I would love to see more on that. Although it was claimed that Muhammad loved his daughters, and told everyone to love theirs. When it was said you could hit your wife, if she did something wrong, one man went to Muhammad and asked what to hit his wife with, and Muhammad's response was to hit her with a Miswak (small toothbrush). Now muslims look at this as sarcasm, as you cannot really hit anybody with something so small, and he was brushing when the man asked, so Muhammad could have been creative.

Thanks for your informative response, Mr. skynightblaze. I really owe you one.

[paarsurrey]

The problem we Christians have is when the Bible is not taken as a whole.

Hi friends

The Bible cannot and should not be taken as a whole, as it was never a complete “whole”. It is not a book written by one author or at one time. It is a collection of heterogenous books having nothing in common, not selected by Jesus; but selected haphazardly by people who were not authorized by Jesus to do this work. For instance four Gospels were selected from 56 books; the selectors never mentioned as to why they selected four and rejected the rest of them. It is erring men selecting unauthorized from Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[charleslemartel]

I did believe in Jesus, and asked him for help, several nights, but got none. I am not an ignorant, so I do take the first step ahead towards something, and yet found nothing much.

The truth is that there is nobody out there who would/can come and help you. Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and all the others are gone and can't come back to help even if they wished. All they have left are words which may or may not be of much help. No one can help a man other than himself.

Why do we need help from others? Man has been searching for truth/God/peace/happiness/enlightenment ever since he has walked on this earth and there have been only a few who have claimed that they have found it. And each one of them (I am counting only those whose claims seem believable) has said that whatever is there to find, it is within yourself. They have said that they found it only when they turned inwards.

What are you actually looking for? What are you asking from Jesus or God? Are you clear about your quest? The first and the best step to solve any problem is to properly identify or define the problem. Have you tried to pin point your problem?

Coming out of a bar at night, George sees Harry, a friend and fellow bar patron who’d left minutes before, on his hands and knees searching for something under a lamp post. "Harry, what did you lose?" asks George. "I lost my keys under a car," says Harry. "If you lost them under a car, why are you looking under the lamp post?" asks George. "Because the light is better here," says Harry.

Are we much different from Harry? Harry was looking under the lamp post because it was easier to look there. What can be easier for us than to ask some God to come and help us? When we were kids, we used to cry and parents rushed to help us. Now that we have grown up, we hope that our imaginary daddy, who actually does not exist, will come to our rescue whenever we are in trouble. We have grown only physically; mentally we are still kids. Shall we, or can we, not grow up?

There are far deeper and relevant questions than "Does God/hell/heaven/afterlife/beforelife exist?". One can begin a journey from only where he actually is. You want to learn the mysteries of the universe? You should begin with the mystery of yourself. You want to have a good future? You will have to begin working towards that goal in the present. You want to be in the heaven after death? You should begin with trying to make your life in the "here and now" better.

Ask the right questions to yourself. This is the first step.

[KufirbintKufr]

I would love to see more on that. Although it was claimed that Muhammad loved his daughters, and told everyone to love theirs. When it was said you could hit your wife, if she did something wrong, one man went to Muhammad and asked what to hit his wife with, and Muhammad's response was to hit her with a Miswak (small toothbrush). Now muslims look at this as sarcasm, as you cannot really hit anybody with something so small, and he was brushing when the man asked, so Muhammad could have been creative.

It is not really the case. Mere suspicion is enough.

4: (34) Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

So if a wife has a bad luck and her husband is paranoid she will be beaten constantly.

You see it is a progress :
admonishment
banishment
beating...

So after two serious steps do you believe a man is supposed to hit her with a Miswak ?
Who would actually change his/ her behaviour after being hit with a Miswak?

In islam there are really strict punishments: crucifixion, cutting off limbs, stoning, slaughtering, whipping...and all of the sudden ...miswak ?

Muhammad hit Aisha (no mentioning of Miswak)
Muslim 2:2127

(...)
Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

Abu Dawud (2142) -
"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Bukhari 72:715

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

The truth is that there is nobody out there who would/can come and help you. Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and all the others are gone and can't come back to help even if they wished. All they have left are words which may or may not be of much help. No one can help a man other than himself.

That is merely your opinion. I was helped by God many times. Millions were helped by Him. Why do you think Lourdes is so crowded ? If no one was ever helped there soon the place would be forgotten.