Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
paarsurrey
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Jesus had no claim on divinity

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

Jesus never claimed to be god in the literal sense. This is only a wishful thinking of the Catholics Protestants that they make a god out of him for nothing, just for their own selfish and easy salvation. If Jesus sometimes used terms god or son of god for him he did in the same meaning other righteous persons of Jews i.e the Messengers Prophets had.

Following is the proof:
John 10:34-36

31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?


http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50010.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This clearly showed what he meant was only a parable or a metaphoric language. He elaborated that they were wrongly accusing him when those Jews on whom Word of God descended OT Bible terms them God; he was one like them.

The Catholics Protestants should come out the trick of the cunning Paul and the Church and accept Jesus as one of the perfect men called Messengers Prophets of the Creator- God Allah YHWH.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Wootah
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Wootah »

Paarsurrey,

Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I'll believe you.
Show me how God remains exalted if we can actually pay off the debt we owe Him and I'll believe you.
Prove to me you actually expect God's mercy when you totally think that by being a good Muslim you deserve Heaven.

paarsurrey
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I'll believe you.
Hi friends

How is this question related to divinity of Jesus or the trinity? Please elaborate.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Wootah
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Wootah »

paarsurrey wrote:
Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I'll believe you.
Hi friends
How is this question related to divinity of Jesus or the trinity? Please elaborate.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
OK. I didn't expect that response!

The whole thing about the Trinity is that no Christian wants to believe in the Trinity. No Christian said and decided God was one being with three personalities. No Christian would willing do this, why would we want to? Why would we want to willingly add to a concept of one God. It is close to saying there are 3 Gods, we can see that. Can you see that no Christian willingly accepts the Trinity at first glance or willingly wants to add 3 personalities to the nature of God? (You are probably amazed at this response so far.)

If you can comprehend that Christians do not arrive at the Trinity willingly then why do we believe in the Trinity?

Consider, just for discussion, that Jesus did die on the cross and was raised again and that his death did represent a sacrificial atonement for our sins to God. Well logic dictates that a debt can only be paid if you have the amount of money required to pay the debt. So if the debt is to God then who and what kind of a sacrifice can pay a debt to God, who can pay for the infinite sins against God? We feel forced to accept that if the debt is infinite then only one that can pay an infinite debt can pay it. We then realise, hey, only God can pay such an infinite debt, therefore Jesus was God.

In just the same way that a debt of $100 cannot be paid off with $1, no man can pay the debt for their sins to God. Does the above explain why I asked you, "Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I'll believe you." Because if you can show me that you can pay off a debt with less than the amount then you are showing that man does not need Jesus to get into Heaven.

paarsurrey
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm

Jesus never attempted suicidal death on Cross

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I'll believe you.
Hi friends
How is this question related to divinity of Jesus or the trinity? Please elaborate.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
OK. I didn't expect that response!

The whole thing about the Trinity is that no Christian wants to believe in the Trinity. No Christian said and decided God was one being with three personalities. No Christian would willing do this, why would we want to? Why would we want to willingly add to a concept of one God. It is close to saying there are 3 Gods, we can see that. Can you see that no Christian willingly accepts the Trinity at first glance or willingly wants to add 3 personalities to the nature of God? (You are probably amazed at this response so far.)

If you can comprehend that Christians do not arrive at the Trinity willingly then why do we believe in the Trinity?
Hi friends

I am shocked to note that the Catholics Protestants have been forced to accept Trinity by someone as you have stated and they are naturally not inclined and they must not accept Trinity. If they believe in one Creator - God Allah YHWH, they must not be forced to accept this superfluous creed invented by the cunning Paul or the clever Church. There is no compulsion in religion and it must not be forced on anyone against one’s free will.

I know that it was cunning Paul and the clever Church who first invented the creed that Jesus willingly accepted flogging, spitting by Jews on him and putting him on the cross; this makes Jesus doing suicide.

So my friend you don’t have to believe in this suicidal attempt of Jesus; as this was never the case. It were the Jews who forcibly put Jesus on the cross; but the loving Creator – God Allah YHWH, does not forsake his beloved ones, so against all odds He saved Jesus a cursed death on Cross.

After being delivered in near-dead position from the Cross Jesus was hurriedly taken to a tomb by his friends with underhand help of Pilate. There he was treated and when healed from the injuries on the cross he made good his escape by going to India along-with his mother Mary.

My friend neither Jesus nor any Catholic Protestant ever took loan of 100$; it is just one of the myriad imagination of Paul and the Church; please get out of this loan scenario; you don’t have to pay any loan.

Just make good deeds and have good beliefs; and you will have your salvation.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Last edited by paarsurrey on Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Wootah
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Wootah »

Reason isn't native to you is it.

paarsurrey
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NTBible is neither Word of God nor Word of Jesus

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:Reason isn't native to you is it.
Hi friends

Reason is very natural with me; of course, as our Quran is Word from the Creator- God Allah YHWH, has claims and reason on every topic relating to ethical, moral and spiritual guidance of human beings in it.

The NTBible is neither Word of the Creator -God Allah YHWH, nor of Jesus, so it is naturally bereft of claims and the reasons. The Claims and reason have to be imported invariably from out of the Gospels or just from the imagination. They loan it from the cunning Paul or the clever Church .

This proves that NTBible is not Word of God.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brendalee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

You have no trouble seeing the three aspects of humans: 1)intellect/brain; 2)physical body; 3)non-physical soul....and you recognise that it would be utterly ridiculous to say that these three attributes make each person THREE people! You believe that a supposedly ALL-powerful infinate God can only have ONE aspect? Yet Muslims describe Allah's aspects in 99 ways. Surely this means you believe in 99 Gods, right?

Your "confusion" about the trinity is utterly faked. The Quran makes a false claim about 3 gods being a belief in Christianity and you must support that error just because the Quran says so. Thus you MUST refuse any and all explanations and pretend to still be confused. There is NO explanation that could be given to you that you could accept as a Muslim because the faked words of your fraudgod takes precidence over any possible logic or reasoning.

yeezevee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by yeezevee »

paarsurrey
Hi friends

I am shocked to note that the Catholics Protestants have been forced to accept Trinity by someone as you have stated and they are naturally not inclined and they must not accept Trinity. If they believe in one Creator - God Allah YHWH
don't worry about Catholics Protestants and don't get shocked by the beliefs of Catholics Protestants., Why worry about them as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT BECOMING CRIMINALS LIKE MUHAMMAD FOLLOWERS using the concept of trinity., it is non of your business.,

Or do you think as a Muslim it is your business to attack Catholics & Protestants physically and eliminate them because of their trinity belief??


Damn Muslims of 21st century parading a CRIMINAL AS PROPHET OF Allah and model to humanity., and this guy is Shocked about Catholics & Protestants believing Trinity as their Godly concept. It is funny to read a Ahamdi gullible characters talking about some one forcing people to believe in Trinity.. You talk NONSENSE without proof dear paarsurrey ., your writing as good as that fellow Promised messiah proving he is messiah by putting up some stupid story a hindu guy getting murdered because that poor fellow challenged your messiah con man ..

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/lekh-ram.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; crazy people silly beliefs

with best regards
yeezevee

Brendalee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

Not to mention that Wootah is clearly NOT referring to any PHYSICAL force. He refers only to intellectually being "forced" by logic and reasoning to accept something. Not to any external forces, but to internal individual argument.

Wootah
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Wootah »

Paarsurrey,

I know the following will be terribly difficult to understand. You will see the phrase 'false premises' and your mind will run wildly with it but I will continue.

Sometimes in logic we start with false premises and using those premises we can deduce conclusions. There is nothing wrong inside formal logic to do so. In fact often in learning logic I remember tests where we had to deduce an answer from various premises and the chain of logic would take a page. The truth of the premises did not matter. This is why your reply to my post was exasperating: You showed no level of intellect to follow the logic even if the premises were false. Discussing whether the premises are false is important but it is important to me that you can follow the logic so that I know we are actually talking to each other when we make our posts.

Consider this Paarsurrey. When you type 'cunning Paul' and 'clever Church' you are actually saying that you have used your reason and concluded that Paul is cunning and the church is being clever and you are trying to help us to see what you have seen. Sincerely, that is very kind of you. When warning people about danger we often say that is a bad man, that spider is dangerous. There is no time to explain why. Now what you don't see is that we need time and proof that Paul is cunning and the Church is clever. You are not making arguments that we can follow to see their deception. This is why when a Christian says 'God is a trinity' you reject it so fast because the evidence is never given. I hopefully showed you the chain of logic from which Christians realised God was a trinity. You can now repeat why Christians believe God is a trinity. I guess I am trying to explain why your words seem so pathetic on this board, I suspect you think they are blazing lights of truth.

Now you asked me how does paying a debt of $100 with $1 matter to the discussion. Now it is my job to create a chain of logic for you. Let's try.

Is Allah good? yes
Is Allah good all the time? yes
Does a good God allow evil into Heaven? no
Will an evil person go to Heaven? no
How can a person become good? By doing what Allah says.
(Now the logic branches)

Branch1
Can a person become good enough to go to Heaven? Yes.
Does this mean that a person can be God's moral equal? Yes.
Does this mean a person is equal to God in at least area? Yes.
Does this mean a person needs God to go to Heaven? To the extent that God maintains heaven yes but in all other ways a person does not need God to go to heaven. (This is why Islam is a works based religion.)
Can we trust that God is who he says he is if we can be equal to him? No.

Branch2
Can a person become good enough to go to Heaven? No.
If no person is good enough for heaven how will they get to heaven? By God's mercy.
If God shows mercy to an evil person and lets them into heaven is God Just? No.
If God is not just then why should we follow his commands? None.

Branches 1 and 2 fundamentally end in a view of God that is not a tenable basis for forming a religion. Either God is not our moral superior and so why follow his commands or God is not just and so there is no reason to do what he says.

I just can't seem to escape the logic given other than through Jesus as God paying for my sins and thereby allowing God to remain both Just and Merciful. If you want me to leave Christianity then break the logic for me rather than attacking Paul or the Trinity. The Trinity isn't the issue Paarsurrey, Paul isn't the issue. Show me how you can pay a debt with less than the amount and I'll leave Christianity on the spot! I'm as keen as getting to Heaven as you are but I believe God is Good and Just and I just can't see God letting a wretch like me into Heaven on my own merit.

paarsurrey
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm

The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:

I believe (Trinity) God is Good and Just
Hi friend wootah

First of all the Catholics Protestants should present the claim of the Trinity as also the essence of its reason from the Gospels; why should you try to put words into the mouth of Trinity, your assumed god, which it individually and collectively failed to mention in your book or to provide reason for it, to start with?

I don't think your Trinity-god has anything to do with justice when it attempted to kill its own son for the sins of others; it is a cruel Trinity-god. Would you following your Trinity-god kill you own son or daughter for the sins of a passerby in the street? It is a cruel act , so you should rather leave the Trinity-god; than doing this inhuman act.

Trinity is neither Good nor Just; it is cruel and irrational.

The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary; they never believed in it.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brendalee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

Let's look at a similar "cruel act", shall we? : Let's imagine a small village in an underdeveloped country. A father sends his two sons to the market and instructs the older son to protect the younger. The older son is mild spoken and virtuous, but his younger brother is wild and more than a bit naughty. The younger son causes mayhem and vandalism at a shopkeepers stall, tipping his cut melons into the dusty road and stomping them. The shopkeeper grabs the offender and snatches a stout stick to beat him with. The older son pulls his brother back, releasing him to run away and then says, "Sir, please beat me instead. I will pay the price for my brother's crime. He is ignorant and immature, but yet I love him."

yeezevee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by yeezevee »

That good man paarsurrey says
Trinity is neither Good nor Just; it is cruel and irrational.
And I am not certain he knows the meaning of " cruel" or Cruelty..

yeezevee

Wootah
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Re: The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by Wootah »

paarsurrey wrote:First of all the Catholics Protestants should present the claim of the Trinity as also the essence of its reason from the Gospels; why should you try to put words into the mouth of Trinity, your assumed god, which it individually and collectively failed to mention in your book or to provide reason for it, to start with?
Of course there is evidence in the Gospels. But right now I am arguing that God is a trinity from the logic of understanding Jesus's sacrifice and resurrection.
I don't think your Trinity-god has anything to do with justice when it attempted to kill its own son for the sins of others; it is a cruel Trinity-god. Would you following your Trinity-god kill you own son or daughter for the sins of a passerby in the street? It is a cruel act , so you should rather leave the Trinity-god; than doing this inhuman act.
Trinity is neither Good nor Just; it is cruel and irrational.
Bad trinity God, bad. Don't die so I can live.

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

paarsurrey wrote:
Wootah wrote:

I believe (Trinity) God is Good and Just
Hi friend wootah

First of all the Catholics Protestants should present the claim of the Trinity as also the essence of its reason from the Gospels; why should you try to put words into the mouth of Trinity, your assumed god, which it individually and collectively failed to mention in your book or to provide reason for it, to start with?

I don't think your Trinity-god has anything to do with justice when it attempted to kill its own son for the sins of others; it is a cruel Trinity-god.
Well wait a second. You're saying that God would never allow it's own son to be killed, but yet God also regularly asks one to give up their own life in the Quran?? So regular humans can give up their own life but Jesus can't?
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night

paarsurrey
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Re: The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by paarsurrey »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
Wootah wrote:

I believe (Trinity) God is Good and Just
Hi friend wootah

First of all the Catholics Protestants should present the claim of the Trinity as also the essence of its reason from the Gospels; why should you try to put words into the mouth of Trinity, your assumed god, which it individually and collectively failed to mention in your book or to provide reason for it, to start with?

I don't think your Trinity-god has anything to do with justice when it attempted to kill its own son for the sins of others; it is a cruel Trinity-god.
Well wait a second. You're saying that God would never allow it's own son to be killed, but yet God also regularly asks one to give up their own life in the Quran?? So regular humans can give up their own life but Jesus can't?
Hi friends

There is no Son to God; as God has no wife. Trinity is man-made; when Jesus made good his escape to India and he was out of the reach of his enemies; one of his staunch enemy named Saul of Tarsus thought of character assassination of Jesus by spoiling Jesus' teachings. Paul and his associates manufactured Trinity at Rome; they in fact borrowed it from the Romans.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

paarsurrey
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Re: The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:Jesus's ... resurrection.
Hi friend wootah

Jesus never died on the Cross; so there is no question of his resurrection. The first pillar of Trinity falls; in fact this pillar never
came up the ground level.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brendalee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

Astonishing, paarsurrey! Do you realise that what you say is pretty much the opposite of what Christians believe?

I'm gobsmacked! I mean, who would credit the coincidence?

Brendalee
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: The concept of Trinity is alien to Jesus and Mary

Post by Brendalee »

paarsurrey wrote: Hi friends

There is no Son to God; as God has no wife. Trinity is man-made; when Jesus made good his escape to India and he was out of the reach of his enemies; one of his staunch enemy named Saul of Tarsus thought of character assassination of Jesus by spoiling Jesus' teachings. Paul and his associates manufactured Trinity at Rome; they in fact borrowed it from the Romans.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Whoa! Again and again! Spooky!!!

P.S. (Off topic) Hey, you know, I once knew someone who went to Rome and my uncle's ex-wife knew a bloke named Saul.(Of course, that isn't about Christians.)

Wow. It is just sooo amazing how everything you say is just the opposite of what Christians believe!!!

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