a bizarre Islamic claims

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by Ibn Rushd »

ygalg wrote:the problem is dear AhmedBahgat despite the fact that Al-Nasara is really as the option one you provided referring Nazareth
(city in northern Israel) residents. the second option, which I'm providing is that it derived from the word Nazarene which originated from the word Nazir it English means Monk. i.e Nazareth is monks place. both options do not define which religion these people followed. historically it would be Judaism. the most famous biblical character from the OT who was a monk is Samson.

but we are addressing Islam where it identifies people by their faith not by their places or abstaining from...etc

in Hebrew and in Arabic we identify Christians by early definition
Nazarene. tho in Hebrew it is perverted. instead nazir or Nazarene the word is Notsry.
Good answer. Also, nasara was used to mean Christians. Some scholars have made the case that it derives from "branch" נצר so in essence the sect is a branch of Judaism, following Isa. 11:1.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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Ibn Rushd wrote: Good answer. Also, nasara was used to mean Christians. Some scholars have made the case that it derives from "branch" נצר so in essence the sect is a branch of Judaism, following Isa. 11:1.
that one, I have not perceived. netser which means offshoot. of course. each word derived from another.

my point was that in Islam it refers to Christians tho I had different POV due to semantic of the word.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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OFF TOPIC:

All my life, reading the Quran, I always thought that "Nasara" is simply a variation of the word "Ansar", both being derived from the root "NSR" which means to give victory to or to *support*... So Nasara to me always meant: the supporters (of Jesus Christ). In one verse, Jesus even asks: "who are my supporters in God?", the deciples answered: "we are!" And now, I see this absurdity, that Nasara is derived from some Jewish town?

btw, the Arabic word: yahood (Jews) is derived from a verb which means: to repent; to return (to God). In one verse, the Jews call upon God: "O, God! We repent/return --hoodna--to you." In other verses, the word yahood (Jews) is replaced with "Allatheena hadoo", meaning those who returned/repented (to God).

But why call the Jews repentants? I guess it either has to do with Golden Calf incident or the fact they turned from polytheism in Egypt to believing in only one God.

Muslims, of course means: submitters (to God).

So in the Quran we have: repentants, supporters and submitters.
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Ibn Rushd
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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ygalg wrote:
Ibn Rushd wrote: Good answer. Also, nasara was used to mean Christians. Some scholars have made the case that it derives from "branch" נצר so in essence the sect is a branch of Judaism, following Isa. 11:1.
that one, I have not perceived. netser which means offshoot. of course. each word derived from another.

my point was that in Islam it refers to Christians tho I had different POV due to semantic of the word.
I don't view Nazarenes as derived from branch, but from nazir. I hadn't heard of that meaning "monk" before, but I suppose you could see it that way. But Nazareth didn't exist before Christianity and the New Testament, that was invented after, and the location wasn't known of it until the late 4th century.

Debunker, that verse you quoted would make more sense if we read it according to Ygalg's translation, "who are my monks in God, we are". Victory and support was the changed meaning that Islam gave (cf. hamad originally meant to choose, but Islam changed it to mean to praise).
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by piscohot »

AhmedBahgat wrote:
ygalg wrote:
piscohot wrote:What's even weirder is that Allah claimed the prophets of the jews and christians to be muslims, yet there existed jews and christians with these prophets.

and to top that: Allah gave them jews, christians and muslims each a different book.

You know it's a different book because if its the same book, it would have been named the same.

muslims and their 'logic'. :lol:
good point piscohot.
indeed. the islamic claim is, that Allah gave same messages
why the name of the book is not the same?

LOL, as if a esteemed friend like piss ever had any good point. But for a dumber, sure it should be a fukin good point

Listen dumb and dumber, Islam means SUBMITTING to God, it is an action, you fools. Therefore because all prophets in all their actions were submitting to God, then all prophets must be Muslimoon

Dismiss yourself, dumb and dumber
Hey! Look!

It's the compulsive liar AhmedBag'o'sh!t again.


So all prophets are Muslimoons BUT their followers are Christians and Jews.

Dumbest
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by piscohot »

joseph wrote:HOwever, today, only the Koran remains uncorrupted.
Shows us a quran from the day of Muhammad and then compare it with what you have today.

If you cannot do it, stop the B.S. about the quran remaining uncorrupted.

Has the bible been changed?

What do other religions do when they discover ancient texts pertaining to their religion?
They display it for all to see.
And there is evidence that the bible was the same now as it was at least to the time when the dead sea scrolls were written.

What do muslims do when they discover ancient texts on the quran?

:roflmao:

They HIDE it!!!!!!!!!

Why do muslims need to hide the ancient texts?
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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Ibn Rushd wrote: I don't view Nazarenes as derived from branch, but from nazir. I hadn't heard of that meaning "monk" before, but I suppose you could see it that way. But Nazareth didn't exist before Christianity and the New Testament, that was invented after, and the location wasn't known of it until the late 4th century.

Debunker, that verse you quoted would make more sense if we read it according to Ygalg's translation, "who are my monks in God, we are". Victory and support was the changed meaning that Islam gave (cf. hamad originally meant to choose, but Islam changed it to mean to praise).
I'm struggling whether it is indeed derived from nazir or it is something else. Nazareth writes with צ and not ז as nazir. netser is also with צ and not ז.
the question is, is it a perversion done by the Jews or it refers something else than a monk thus nazir?

what is factual, is that the Jews and Islamists refer to Christians by this etymology: n,ts,r and not the Latin Christian which would be Messianic in Semitic language.

in consideration to nazir.
jesus with his apostales, in the pictures shown, have long hairs which it suit to monks. monks according to the OT are to grow long hair and are not allow to cut the hair nor fingernails...etc and forbidden of drinking wine. (possibly where Muhammad got the idea to forbid the wine. perhaps in thinking, he would make an army strong as Samson)
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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btw Ibn Rushd a valid point you made.

Nazareth came to be known in the late 4th century.

a note from wiki: Nazarene (sect)
The Nazarenes (Hebrew: Netzarim, נצרים) were an early Jewish Christian sect similar to the Ebionites, in that they maintained their adherence to the Torah, but, unlike the Ebonites, also accepted the virgin birth and divinity of Jesus.
Last edited by ygalg on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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debunker wrote:OFF TOPIC:

All my life, reading the Quran, I always thought that "Nasara" is simply a variation of the word "Ansar", both being derived from the root "NSR" which means to give victory to or to *support*... So Nasara to me always meant: the supporters (of Jesus Christ). In one verse, Jesus even asks: "who are my supporters in God?", the deciples answered: "we are!" And now, I see this absurdity, that Nasara is derived from some Jewish town?

btw, the Arabic word: yahood (Jews) is derived from a verb which means: to repent; to return (to God). In one verse, the Jews call upon God: "O, God! We repent/return --hoodna--to you." In other verses, the word yahood (Jews) is replaced with "Allatheena hadoo", meaning those who returned/repented (to God).

But why call the Jews repentants? I guess it either has to do with Golden Calf incident or the fact they turned from polytheism in Egypt to believing in only one God.

Muslims, of course means: submitters (to God).

So in the Quran we have: repentants, supporters and submitters.
Jew is a slang word in English for Yehudi. is derived from Yehuda (judah=Jacob's fourth son (Biblical); one of the 12 tribes of Israel (Biblical); Hebrew kingdom in southern Palestine)

if we were educated in Semitic languages, we would understand the ancient Semitic texts far better.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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In Christian tradition Jesus is sometimes called the "Nazarene" as he is reported to have grown up in the town of Nazareth. So, by extension, followers of Jesus (or some of them) may well have been known as the Nazarenes by others. This in a sense looks like also being a rather clever play with words. In ancient Hebrew natzr (or netzer) is a branch or an off-shoot. It makes perfect sense for Jewish people to refer to early Christians as "off-shoots" in the sense that they are a "sect" from the Jewish point of view. So this is an insult without being really obvious about it, a very subtle, tongue-in-cheek one, very much in keeping with Hebrew culture.

The connection with monk seems to be a more unlikely one at first, as the spelling is not consistent. However, there is one other fact that may add some weight to this idea: Mohammed's main, if not the only vaguely Christian contact was a heretical monk, a Nestorian one, of all things.

This opens another two possibilities for the origin of that curious Arabic term. It could be derived from "monk" or from "Nestorian", as Mohammed's contact would undoubtedly have used both terms to describe himself. Mohammed would have assumed that all Christians are like that monk, and "Al-Nasara" has nothing to do with any town, but is simply a made-up term for the "people of Nestor" or "Nestorians" or the "followers of that monk"...

I guess we will never know for sure which is right, we need a really good linguist...
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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here something interesting
koran 2:104
O you who believe! Say not Ra'ina but say Unzurna and hear. And for the disbelievers there is a painful torment.
above I emphasized two words Ra'ina and Unzurna. once as a member at ummah.com I asked about it and received a long explanation which required no more than two words translation. IOW they were clueless. despite these two words already be familiar to me. I googled to royal Saudi library where there admittedly point out these are Hebrew words.

ראינה Ra'ina and נצורנה Unzurna

Ra'ina - behold
Unzurna - cherish (U as to and)

nzurna relates to נצר NeTSeR
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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correction: Nestorian has no connection to Nazarene
Last edited by ygalg on Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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manfred wrote:
joseph wrote:
All previous books have been altered by evil men.
Really?

Why did God allow that?

Or could He not stop it?

Was is not careless of God to allow such wholescale corruption of His word?
God knew that He would be sending the Koran as His last Book to humanity. He vowed that He would never allow Koran to be altered at all.

Therefore, God allowed earlier books to be corrupted; and He punished those fake holy men who defiled His holy books.


If any serious thinker compares the texts all of God's earlier Books, such as Torah, Analects, Gospel, Vedas, Pslams, and many others, with the pure text of God's final Book, the Holy Koran, then they will notice that these books have so much similarites. They will also notice where and how those previous books had been been changed by selfish men.

God urges men to use Koran as the perfect standard to judge purity of other holy books. God calls Koran the Criterion.

You dont have to be Einstein to see the extent of human hand in corrupting Ala's earlier books in comparison with the purity of Ala's final book.

Its quite simple when you actually think about it.

:)
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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joseph wrote:
God knew that He would be sending the Koran as His last Book to humanity. He vowed that He would never allow Koran to be altered at all.

Therefore, God allowed earlier books to be corrupted; and He punished those fake holy men who defiled His holy books.
So your most excellent Allah knew that some men are going to corrupt his books and yet allowed this to happen and then punished the men who allegedly defiiled those books. It seems your Allah is a bigger fucktard than you are.
joseph wrote: If any serious thinker compares the texts all of God's earlier Books, such as Torah, Analects, Gospel, Vedas, Pslams, and many others, with the pure text of God's final Book, the Holy Koran, then they will notice that these books have so much similarites. They will also notice where and how those previous books had been been changed by selfish men.
The only book that represents and shows selfishness of a criminal is well documented in your holy sh!t-quran. how allah comes to rescue of the fornicator when caught cheating his wife and having sex with a slave women, how allah comes to rescue your sex craved prophet when he saw his daughter-in-law in panties and how your allah pomoted pedophila just to satisfy the lust of a barbaric criminal
joseph wrote: God urges men in the Koran to use it as the perfect standard to judge purity of other holy books.
Alas! the god is not more than a pimp of a criminal pedophile and the book is not the gold standard to be judged against.
joseph wrote: You dont have to be Einstein to see the extent of human hand in corrupting Ala's earlier books in comparison with the purity of Ala's final book.
Haven't we heard that enough times. Can you prove that your book is not corrupted? If not, then why are your muslims killings each other and not able to understand the message in your quran which is apparently very easy to understand or are muslims so dumb that they cannot even comprehend a book that a semi-illiterate man of 7th century found easy to understand?
joseph wrote:
Its quite simple when you actually think about it.

:)
It is. We know it but when will you
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by ygalg »

joseph wrote:
manfred wrote:
joseph wrote:
All previous books have been altered by evil men.
Really?

Why did God allow that?

Or could He not stop it?

Was is not careless of God to allow such wholescale corruption of His word?
God knew that He would be sending the Koran as His last Book to humanity. He vowed that He would never allow Koran to be altered at all.

Therefore, God allowed earlier books to be corrupted; and He punished those fake holy men who defiled His holy books.


If any serious thinker compares the texts all of God's earlier Books, such as Torah, Analects, Gospel, Vedas, Pslams, and many others, with the pure text of God's final Book, the Holy Koran, then they will notice that these books have so much similarites. They will also notice where and how those previous books had been been changed by selfish men.

God urges men to use Koran as the perfect standard to judge purity of other holy books. God calls Koran the Criterion.

You dont have to be Einstein to see the extent of human hand in corrupting Ala's earlier books in comparison with the purity of Ala's final book.

Its quite simple when you actually think about it.

:)
archaeological findings inconsistent with your claims.

and we don't posses any of pure texts of God and that includes Koran as well.
Last edited by ygalg on Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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ygalg wrote:Nestorian is perversion of Netsorian and fits well with Nazarene

that means the monk belonged to the sect (Nazarene), that accepted the virgin birth and divinity of Jesus

if the monk was belonging to the sect which did not accepted both options he would belonging to Ebionites.

it displays not comfortable display for Muhammad be a prophet. as it started with this monk.

however Koranic stance only objects to divinity of Jesus, but accepts virgin birth. tho dissimilar. it does not interpret Allah as the biological father.
Nestorian texts have Jesus born of a virgin and, like the quran, have him speak as a baby. Nestorians also deny the divinity of Christ. So, old Mo's stance on Christianity is much the same as Nestor's was....
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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manfred wrote: Nestorian texts have Jesus born of a virgin and, like the quran, have him speak as a baby. Nestorians also deny the divinity of Christ. So, old Mo's stance on Christianity is much the same as Nestor's was....
I've mistaken about the Nestorian. it called after a priest Nestorius who objected to Cyril innovations over Jesus nature. Britannica
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by debunker »

@ygalg
Jew is a slang word in English for Yehudi. is derived from Yehuda (judah=Jacob's fourth son (Biblical); one of the 12 tribes of Israel (Biblical); Hebrew kingdom in southern Palestine)

if we were educated in Semitic languages, we would understand the ancient Semitic texts far better.
I presume you know that Judah has something to do with the verb to "praise".

This verb is in Arabic too, except it means to repent/return (to God)... and like I said, in many places, "Yahood" was replaced with "Allatheena Hadoo" to emphasize the origin of their name.
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

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debunker wrote:@ygalg
Jew is a slang word in English for Yehudi. is derived from Yehuda (judah=Jacob's fourth son (Biblical); one of the 12 tribes of Israel (Biblical); Hebrew kingdom in southern Palestine)

if we were educated in Semitic languages, we would understand the ancient Semitic texts far better.
I presume you know that Judah has something to do with the verb to "praise".

This verb is in Arabic too, except it means to repent/return (to God)... and like I said, in many places, "Yahood" was replaced with "Allatheena Hadoo" to emphasize the origin of their name.
of course. emphasized in the bible. "praise to god".
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Re: a bizarre Islamic claims

Post by manfred »

@joseph

Ok, the archeological evidence points out very strongly that your corruption notion is false. Logically it also makes no sense.

So if you don't want to listen to science or to reason then listen to the quran on the subject:
quran 10:64 wrote:For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.

Got it? No Change???

quran 5:46 wrote:And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law [Torah] that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Are you reading this??? The Torah and the Gospels are the word of Allah, according to the quran. Incase you are confused, the quran mentions the same thing a few more times, in 6:115 and in 18:27. Look it up. And, as we have seen the quran says in 10:64 Allah's words cannot be changed.

Now, don't weasel out of that or try to make the quran say what it does not say. Next, read this:
quran 10:94-95 wrote:If you are in doubt as to what We have revealed unto you, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you: the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. Nor be of those who reject the signs of Allah, or you shall be of those who perish.
Is that clear enough for you? The quran tells you that you should use Jews and Christians as advisors in religious questions, much like Mohammed did.
In case I am not getting through, here is another passage from the quran instructing you the same way:
quran 4:136 wrote:O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scriptures which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
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