Does Quran Sanction Rape?

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debunker
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by debunker »

@ Khalil

the verses CLEARLY said SIN (in Arabic). And the translations toned it down to "faults".
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by charleslemartel »

Debunker,

I have asked many Muslims what sins of Muhammad Allah was talking about? Do you have any idea?

Ignoring the blind person, for example, can hardly be classified as sin.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

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debunker wrote:this is the problem with history... everyone's got their own version to tell... so the blacks are lying?
Most of them are actually being lied to. The whole Alex Haley "Roots" scenario where a small band of gun toting whites round up and kidnap a whole bunch of blacks simply wasn't true, and black scholars know this, but common blacks do not and nobody mentions this because it hurts the guilt trip that they love to play on the white man. The guilt trip works for them, so it's part of their cause. So they are very quiet about this fact even though any black scholar worth a salt has to admit it's true when asked or else lose his reputation. Ands of course, as soon as I learned this, it all made sense. Do you think whites could just go in there and round these people up without the Africans banding together and fighting them? But there were no or very little white casualties. Don't you think that's interesting? It's because they just went in there and picked them up already gift wrapped for them by the opposing side in an inner African war. All the white people were actually doing, is taking advantage of the violent, warring ways of the African tribes and using it for their own benefit much like someone does when they buy a bankruptcy foreclosure for next to nothing. That's not very good, but it's not demonic and it all makes perfect sense. Hey, and if you don't like that, just remember that even Muhammad himself had a purchased slave.
Last edited by Muhammad bin Lyin on Mon May 04, 2009 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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KhaliL
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by KhaliL »

debunker wrote:@ Khalil

the verses CLEARLY said SIN (in Arabic). And the translations toned it down to "faults".
The verse says "Will Forgive" Why do you think your prophet should necessarily sin because Allah promised him that he WILL forgive in case he sin?

And you did not check Picktal... :oops:

KF

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by debunker »

@ Charles

I don't know what were his sins... the Quran never clarified... but these verses clearly expose the lie that he was perfect.

@ Khalil

the verse said "past" and "future" sins were forgiven... besides the translations are toning down the language... in fact Sakir completely mistranslated one verse... so what? I don't care if these translations were deliberately trying to tone down the language...
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

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debunker wrote:@ Charles

I don't know what were his sins... the Quran never clarified... but these verses clearly expose the lie that he was perfect.
Knowing his life history, do you think he committed any of the sins in the list of Muhammad's crimes Ali Sina has prepared? Or do you discard all those accounts which Ali Sina uses to prove his charges?
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

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debunker wrote:@ Khalil

the verse said "past" and "future" sins were forgiven... besides the translations are toning down the language... in fact Sakir completely mistranslated one verse... so what? I don't care if these translations were deliberately trying to tone down the language...
Of the past sins, Ibn Abbas clarified it as Muhammad's sins BEFORE his prophet-hood. He becomes under the care of god ONLY after being designated as Prophet.

Still, it is only an opinion because this one from Two Jalals tells us story from another viewpoint:

God may forgive you, by virtue of your struggle, what is past of your sin and what is to come, of it, so that your community might then desire to struggle [like you] — this [verse] also constitutes a justification of the [concept of the] infallibility (‘isma) of prophets, against sin, by way of a definitive rational proof (the lām [in li-yaghfira, ‘that He may forgive’] is for [indicating] the ultimate reason [for the conquest], so that the content [of this latter statement] constitutes an effect and not the cause), and that He may perfect, by way of the mentioned victory, His favour to you and guide you, thereby, to a straight path, upon which He will confirm you — and this [straight path] is the religion of Islam;[Tafsir Jalalain on Quran: 48:2]

Your response?

KF

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by debunker »

@ Khalil
All prophets are sinless according to Quran because they did NOT disobey their god. Period;
I just saw this comment. See below.

Jonah sinned
21:87
And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no god save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.

Moses sinned
28:15-16
And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Satan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

David sinned
38:24-25
He (David) said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.

Of course not to mention those other verses about God forgiving Muhammed's sins.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1700&start=560#p35514" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And in 47:19 and 40:55 in the post above God orders him to ask for forgiveness for his sins. Muhammed is not above asking God for forgiveness! It's in the Quran. And I clarified enough.
Of the past sins, Ibn Abbas clarified it as Muhammad's sins BEFORE his prophet-hood. He becomes under the care of god ONLY after being designated as Prophet.

Your response?
My response is that those scholars/translators are cry babies who can't bear the thought that Muhammed was a normal human being who sinned. It's clear in the Quran that he was but a human and that he sinned and God forgave his sins. God also ordered him to ask for His forgiveness. Period.

If all what I said already is not convincing, then fine... I don't want to talk about it any more.


@ Charles

I don't care for what Sina wrote. In fact in one of his articles, he had the nerve to even mock Muhammed for the verses about God reproaching him for the blind man... Sina said that he'd done this only because the disbelievers who were present criticized him for it!!!! Really? And how did Sina know that? Was he personally present and heard the disbelievers criticize Muhammed for the way he treated a blind man? The verses were clearly reproaching him because he ignored a man who came earnestly seeking God while he tended to those who didn't care.
Knowing his life history, do you think he committed any of the sins in the list of Muhammad's crimes Ali Sina has prepared?


What list? Do you have a link? I won't read whole articles.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by KhaliL »

debunker wrote:@ Khalil
Spoiler! :
All prophets are sinless according to Quran because they did NOT disobey their god. Period;
I just saw this comment. See below.

Jonah sinned
21:87
And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no god save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.

Moses sinned
28:15-16
And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Satan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

David sinned
38:24-25
He (David) said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.

Of course not to mention those other verses about God forgiving Muhammed's sins.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1700&start=560#p35514" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And in 47:19 and 40:55 in the post above God orders him to ask for forgiveness for his sins. Muhammed is not above asking God for forgiveness! It's in the Quran. And I clarified enough.
Of the past sins, Ibn Abbas clarified it as Muhammad's sins BEFORE his prophet-hood. He becomes under the care of god ONLY after being designated as Prophet.

Your response?
My response is that those scholars/translators are cry babies who can't bear the thought that Muhammed was a normal human being who sinned. It's clear in the Quran that he was but a human and that he sinned and God forgave his sins. God also ordered him to ask for His forgiveness. Period.
If all what I said already is not convincing, then fine... I don't want to talk about it any more.

debunker,

It is retiring hours in Middle East. Tired after a long eventful day.

I know Jonah and others Quran mentioned. But listen: You did not get my point on what constitutes "SIN".

An act or acts branded as "sin" only after god declaring forbiddance thus become sin. In the case of Jonah, god's declaration comes after Jonah running away from his people. God said later he disobeyed him. So, technically neither Jonah nor Moses, David... are sinned because their otherwise sinful acts occurred before god prohibiting them or branding them as sin.

There is something to ponder. I would thank my Sufi past for the above and…

Goodnight;

KF

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by sum »

Hello debunker

This matter of Muhammad sinning is very important and we need to know what these sins were in order not to regard them as an example to follow for all time.

It may be that muslims all over the globe are copying Muhammad and, in good faith, sinning. We also need to know his "faults" for the same reason. It is very remiss of Allah not to point out Muhammad`s sins and faults and perhaps this is the reason why Islam is so offensive to non-muslims. It also suggests that Allah`s final guidance for all mankind for all time was all make believe after all. I would claim that this is another piece in the jigsaw of showing that Islam is false.

Can muslims really accept that Allah would, in one breath, say that Muhammad sinned but not tell us in what way and in the next breath tell us that Muhammad is the perfect example for mankind to follow for all time? Allah has certainly left us in the dark as to what examples of Muhammad we should not follow.

Perhaps it was sex with a nine year old girl or even taking and trading in slaves. Who knows?

sum

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by debunker »

Hello sum,

Your last post was not serious at all and I'll have to ignore it.

Regards.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

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Cassie wrote:
What a liar. 47-4 also tells you to behead every disbeliever until the war is over. How barbaric. Muslims have the choice of freeing or ransoming captives. Is that better morals than the pagans? No. They were better than the Muslims. The fact that Muslims took slaves for 14 centuries - even establishing slaving colonies like Zanzibar in order to rape Africa of slaves proves Asad a liar. The fact that the Muslims raided Europe and the Caucasus talking women and children into slavery proves Asad a liar. The fact that Muhammad beheaded Asad's own people and enslaves women and children of Asad's ethnicity proves him a traitorous liar. He was a traitor to the Jews - who are the enemies of the Muslims.
Dismissed. What a hate mongering women you are. Asad is not a traitor, he was one of exceptional Jew Quran talks about. Jews were traitor to themselves which was precisely the reason why their own God sent armies to destroy them. Yeah we were so horrible that when the perhaps the largest armies ever on Earth came to conquer Muslim, Islam still prevailed. The conquer were conquered not by sword but by virtue of Islam. You talk pretty big for someone whose kind is responsible for the most heinous crimes committed on Earth. WWI, WWII, dropping a humongous nuclear bomb on innocent civilians traumatizing them for the rest of their lives, and the list never ends. The Japanese attacked your military bases and how you respond? Drop a bomb on gazillions civilians! And it is your civilized world who is responsible for almost extinction of the Jewish folk. You have been life dismissed. Don't ever talk to me. Kapish?

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by fudgy »

Khalil here we go: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2203 You may start with Asin.

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by charleslemartel »

debunker wrote: @ Charles

I don't care for what Sina wrote. In fact in one of his articles, he had the nerve to even mock Muhammed for the verses about God reproaching him for the blind man... Sina said that he'd done this only because the disbelievers who were present criticized him for it!!!! Really? And how did Sina know that? Was he personally present and heard the disbelievers criticize Muhammed for the way he treated a blind man? The verses were clearly reproaching him because he ignored a man who came earnestly seeking God while he tended to those who didn't care.
Knowing his life history, do you think he committed any of the sins in the list of Muhammad's crimes Ali Sina has prepared?


What list? Do you have a link? I won't read whole articles.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by charleslemartel »

fudgy wrote:
Cassie wrote:
What a liar. 47-4 also tells you to behead every disbeliever until the war is over. How barbaric. Muslims have the choice of freeing or ransoming captives. Is that better morals than the pagans? No. They were better than the Muslims. The fact that Muslims took slaves for 14 centuries - even establishing slaving colonies like Zanzibar in order to rape Africa of slaves proves Asad a liar. The fact that the Muslims raided Europe and the Caucasus talking women and children into slavery proves Asad a liar. The fact that Muhammad beheaded Asad's own people and enslaves women and children of Asad's ethnicity proves him a traitorous liar. He was a traitor to the Jews - who are the enemies of the Muslims.
Dismissed. What a hate mongering women you are. Asad is not a traitor, he was one of exceptional Jew Quran talks about. Jews were traitor to themselves which was precisely the reason why their own God sent armies to destroy them. Yeah we were so horrible that when the perhaps the largest armies ever on Earth came to conquer Muslim, Islam still prevailed. The conquer were conquered not by sword but by virtue of Islam. You talk pretty big for someone whose kind is responsible for the most heinous crimes committed on Earth. WWI, WWII, dropping a humongous nuclear bomb on innocent civilians traumatizing them for the rest of their lives, and the list never ends. The Japanese attacked your military bases and how you respond? Drop a bomb on gazillions civilians! And it is your civilized world who is responsible for almost extinction of the Jewish folk. You have been life dismissed. Don't ever talk to me. Kapish?
Traitors are exceptional to the community they belong to; Asad is one of them, he was a Jew wasn't he?
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by sum »

Hello debunker

You said that my post was not serious and so you would ignore it. It most certainly was serious and raised very obvious problems that Allah seems to have overlooked or couldn`t be bothered with. You can not ignore the fact that Allah said that Muhammad sinned, muslims say that Muhammad had faults, Allah says that Muhammad is the peferct example for mankind to follow but does not clarify what examples of Muhammad`s faults and sins should not be followed.

How do muslims decide what not to follow? They will simply have to look at the whole of Muhammad`s words and deeds and decide for themselves what was not acceptable. Two points come straight to mind where Muhammad was either concerned about contravening the social norms - marrying his adopted son`s wife - and Abu Bakr being uneasy about Aisha, who was only six years old, being engaged/married to a fifty year old man.

This is a most serious matter for muslims to contemplate. Perhaps you would care to make some comments on the matters that I had raised.

sum

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:
Cassie wrote:
What a liar. 47-4 also tells you to behead every disbeliever until the war is over. How barbaric. Muslims have the choice of freeing or ransoming captives. Is that better morals than the pagans? No. They were better than the Muslims. The fact that Muslims took slaves for 14 centuries - even establishing slaving colonies like Zanzibar in order to rape Africa of slaves proves Asad a liar. The fact that the Muslims raided Europe and the Caucasus talking women and children into slavery proves Asad a liar. The fact that Muhammad beheaded Asad's own people and enslaves women and children of Asad's ethnicity proves him a traitorous liar. He was a traitor to the Jews - who are the enemies of the Muslims.
Dismissed. What a hate mongering women you are. Asad is not a traitor, he was one of exceptional Jew Quran talks about.
Did you see that quote where I showed you how Asad blatantly and completely changed the meaning of 67:5 compared to the other translators? This guy changed the meaning on purpose to hide the embarrassing fact that it was talking about meteors chasing things, and he turns thrown flames into "futile guesses". That's a liar for you and you're being duped.
fudgy wrote: Jews were traitor to themselves which was precisely the reason why their own God sent armies to destroy them. Yeah we were so horrible that when the perhaps the largest armies ever on Earth came to conquer Muslim, Islam still prevailed.
Musims never fought the Romans. In fact, they started heading out that way but then turned back. Check your fact book fudgy and stop listening to these lies that your fellow propagandist lying bros are telling you. yes, your fellow Muslims are liars and they are lying to you.
fudgy wrote: The conquer were conquered not by sword but by virtue of Islam.
Gee, then what was all the blood about? What the hell is the matter with your ability to reason? Who or what is hypnotizing you like this? Fudgy, here are some blatant facts that you need to accept. Your prophet bought and sold slaves. Your prophet allowed his men to have sex with the wives of the men they just killed. In fact, in one spot, Muhammad tells them not to bother to pull out and not worry if they get the woman pregnant. Did you know that fudgy? There's probably a lot these liars aren't going to tell you while they invent their fake glorification of Muhammad and lie to you about how great Islam is. These are facts fudgy, no matter how you need to color them for yourself. Wake up and smell the coffee. I wish I could just snap my finger and suddenly you would snap out of your trance, but the trance is far too deep at this point.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

fudgy wrote:You talk pretty big for someone whose kind is responsible for the most heinous crimes committed on Earth. WWI, WWII, dropping a humongous nuclear bomb on innocent civilians traumatizing them for the rest of their lives, and the list never ends. The Japanese attacked your military bases and how you respond? Drop a bomb on gazillions civilians! And it is your civilized world who is responsible for almost extinction of the Jewish folk.
Whose kind would that be, whites?

Y'know 225,000 civilians died in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the Japanese imperial forces slaughtered 30,000 civilians in the first night they took Nanking and at least 300,000 in the six week long rape of Nanking that followed. The death toll in Asia from Japan's marauding armies was in the millions. They needed to be stopped, and the use of nuclear weapons - paradoxically - probably saved countless lives and many more years of bloodshed in the Pacific.
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by charleslemartel »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: What the hell is the matter with your ability to reason? Who or what is hypnotizing you like this? Fudgy, here are some blatant facts that you need to accept. Your prophet bought and sold slaves. Your prophet allowed his men to have sex with the wives of the men they just killed. In fact, in one spot, Muhammad tells them not to bother to pull out and not worry if they get the woman pregnant. Did you know that fudgy? There's probably a lot these liars aren't going to tell you while they invent their fake glorification of Muhammad and lie to you about how great Islam is. These are facts fudgy, no matter how you need to color them for yourself. Wake up and smell the coffee. I wish I could just snap my finger and suddenly you would snap out of your trance, but the trance is far too deep at this point.
Truth does not matter to them; their egos matter more. How can they accept that they are born into a regressive religion? They use their intelligence to wriggle out of the embarrassing situations. They do not defend their faith; they defend their egos. To think that one is among the chosen people by the creator God is a great boost to the ego.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by hamid »

charleslemartel wrote:
Truth does not matter to them; their egos matter more. How can they accept that they are born into a regressive religion? They use their intelligence to wriggle out of the embarrassing situations. They do not defend their faith; they defend their egos. To think that one is among the chosen people by the creator God is a great boost to the ego.
How do you know we defend our egos and not our faith?

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