The Golden Rule

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
frankie
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:
manfred wrote:48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”
- Which unbelievers is this speaking of
- Does the golden rule forbid retaliation in self-defence
- Does offensive warfare, including genocide of one's "neighbor", breach the golden rule?
manfred wrote:So when Mohammed tortures a man to find out where his money is, he following the golden rule?
Bring the proof
Eagle
Mohamed declared war on anyone not accepting Allah as the only god,with himself as prophet of this god,which is not a good enough reason to go to war with anyone.

This declaration of war stands today,as his ways and example are viewed as eternal,which is why the likes of IS,Boko Haram,Al Shabaab and Al Qaeda exist today.

Why do you insist on defending/belonging to a faith based on warfare against people just because they do not believe as you do?


Sahih Muslim 33—The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:
- Which unbelievers is this speaking of
All.
Spoiler! :
(Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) and this without the witness of Suhayl Ibn 'Amr. (And those with him) i.e. Abu Bakr, the first who believed in him and called the disbelievers with him to the religion of Allah (are hard against the disbelievers) this refers to 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab who was tough with the enemies of Allah, strong in the religion of Allah and a defender of Allah's Messenger (and merciful among themselves) and dutiful towards each other; this refers to 'Uthman Ibn 'Affan who was very dutiful and merciful towards the Muslims, and spent much of his money on them. (Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing) in prayer (and falling prostrate (in worship)) this refers to 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib who abundantly bowed and prostrated in prayer, (seeking bounty) reward (from Allah and (His) acceptance) acceptance of their Lord through jihad; this refers to Talhah and al-Zubayr who were very hard on, and tough with, the disbelievers. (The mark of them is on their foreheads from) the sign of their staying awake is on their faces from (the traces of prostration) from repeated prostration at night; this refers to Salman al-Farisi, Bilal, Suhayb and their fellow believers. (Such is their likeness) their description (in the Torah and their likeness) and their description in (in the Gospel like as sown corn) this is the Prophet (pbuh) (that) Allah (sendeth forth its shoot) i.e. Abu Bakr, the first to believe in him and the first to face the enemies of Allah (and strengtheneth it) and assists him; this is 'Umar who assisted the Prophet (pbuh) with his sword against the enemies of Allah (and riseth firm) He became strong with the wealth of 'Uthman which he used in jihad in the way of Allah (upon its stalk) and spread his message among Quraysh through 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib, (delighting the sowers) the Prophet (pbuh) was pleased with Talhah and al-Zubayr (that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them) by means of Talhah and al-Zubayr. It is also said that from Allah's saying (Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah…) up to here was revealed in praise of those who took part in the swearing of allegiance at Ridwan and the sincere, obedient prophetic Companions in general. (Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an (and do good works) and do acts of obedience in private between themselves and their Lord, (forgiveness) of their sins in this world and in the Hereafter (and immense reward) and abundant reward in the Garden'.
https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tM ... nguageId=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The above commentary doesn't support the assertion that the verse is indiscriminate towards unbelievers. It speaks of God's enemies. There are ample Quranic statement not forbidding Muslims to mingle on normal terms with people of other faith.
manfred wrote:
- Does the golden rule forbid retaliation in self-defence
No, provided it is proportionate to the threat.
- Does offensive warfare, including genocide of one's "neighbor", breach the golden rule?
Yes.
Did YWHW break that rule when he commanded his prophets and for all times to come to exterminate innocent nations whenever they or their descendants are identified?
manfred wrote:
Kinana b. al-Rabi`, who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (T. was brought) to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-`Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has," so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, translated as, The Life of Muhammad, (tr. A. Guillaume), Karachi: Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 515.)
The history books report that one of the chiefs of the Bani Nadir named Kinana ibn Rabi, who had been given amnesty and relocated to Khaybar, was put to death under the prophet's orders, by Muhammad ibn Maslama in retaliation for the murder of his borther Mahmud. The rest of the story according to which, prior to his death, he was supposedly tortured for his refusal to indicate the location of his hidden treasure, was copied by both Tabari and Ibn Hisham from Ibn Ishaq who doesnt give any isnad with it. This report was most probably a Jewish invention as it is known that ibn Ishaq, in his effort at collecting every possible historical account regardless of authenticity (leaving the authentication process to be conducted by the subsequent generations), would borrow Jewish stories from the prophet's battles.
Further, the prophet forbade any kind of torture involving burning, and in his pattern of conduct in the authentic reports, no precedent exists for such a behavior although he could have done so on many occasions. That is besides his complete disinterest in pursuing wealth, neither in his battles nor his reportedly austere lifestyle. Neither was his family put to death. It is related that Kinana's brother was alive under Umar's caliphate.

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

A source is a source. It says what it says. Given his very own dead pot society, this account of Mohammed's behaviour is entirely within character.

If you dismiss any inconvenient source about Mohammed, you end up with a fictional Mohammed, a legendary person who never lived.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

It speaks of God's enemies.
In Islam you are not allowed to make friends with unbelievers. ALL are "enemies".
Did YWHW break that rule when he commanded his prophets and for all times to come to exterminate innocent nations whenever they or their descendants are identified?
As there is no such command this is a nonsense statement.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

The Golden Rule has never been practiced in Christianity, what the Church wants is for themselves not as it is written in the Bible.

Christian history has shown that they will always torture, torment, oppress others in the general population in the hope of giving them pleasure and wealth, which is the abuse of the Golden Rule in the letter rather than the spirit, which represents its essence. Many facts that the Catholic church has covered a number of atrocities throughout history are stated and revealed.

The Catholic Church has been responsible for many atrocities in its history, which should bear most of the blame. The facts of Christian history are indisputable whenever they have power, they have oppressed those who are weaker than they are. There seems to be an undeniable principle of the Church that those in power will oppress those who do not.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

And how does whatever some did or failed to do change what clearly is the teaching of both Judaism and Christianity?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:A source is a source. It says what it says. Given his very own dead pot society, this account of Mohammed's behaviour is entirely within character.

If you dismiss any inconvenient source about Mohammed, you end up with a fictional Mohammed, a legendary person who never lived.
It isn't about convinency. Muslims do not just accept a report or reject it at face value, but scrutinize it through various meticulous angles so as to arrive to a decent level of certainty. The ahadith, although a secondary source of religious guidance, went through an authentication process that the major scriptures of Christianity and Judaism cannot even hope for, let alone their secondary sources. That authentication process of the ahadith is still open even today, with ahadith seen in the past as undisputed but now downgraded to a lower level of certainty. No writing in the history of mankind received a divine pledge of protection other than the Quran. Anything else is open to human error.

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:In Islam you are not allowed to make friends with unbelievers. ALL are "enemies".
No, Muslims can freely mingle with non-Muslims that do not seek harming us 60:8-9.
manfred wrote:
Did YWHW break that rule when he commanded his prophets and for all times to come to exterminate innocent nations whenever they or their descendants are identified?
As there is no such command this is a nonsense statement.
Who commanded the invasion of Canaan, smiting the "enemies" through the hands of Moses and Joshua?

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

No, Muslims can freely mingle with non-Muslims that do not seek harming us 60:8-9.
That is not quite what it says. You are quite happy to present the Qur'an very selectively..
Who commanded the invasion of Canaan, smiting the "enemies" through the hands of Moses and Joshua?
Moses died before Joshua became the leader who took back the land of Abraham. And when the bible tells us about a sequence of events, with a religious interpretation, it does not issue an instruction to repeat past events. When I write about the slave trade does than mean I promote it?

You said this:
Did YWHW break that rule when he commanded his prophets and for all times to come to exterminate innocent nations whenever they or their descendants are identified?
At no time did God command "that his prophets and for all times to come to exterminate innocent nations". That would be more Mohammed's line.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

Of course that sura 60 says to be freely mingle with peaceful non Muslims. This negates the first claim.

The purpose of retrospective religious interpretation in the Bible isn't the issue. It is YHWH who ordered to genocides. Did he break the golden rule?

And of course it is an everlasting genocidal instruction, among others. In the HB and as corroborated by Jesus in the NT when he said to abide by it to the minute details, several types of wars are promulgated. There is the compulsory command/mitzva among the 613 revealed at Sinai, binding on Jews of all times to destroy Amalek's seed Deut25:19 without showing any pity whenever the opportunity is there, and exterminate the remaining Canaanite nations from the land of Israel whenever any of them or their descendants are identified Deut20:16. This is a timeless ordinance, as already said, part of the 613 binding commandements, and is thus an explicit order to genetically exterminate a certain people. Every command within the Torah is understood as eternally binding and those that are inapplicable today due to the absence of a Temple will be reinstated in the utopian messianic era, where every nation will be forcefully subdued to the Jewish God.

The eternally binding command to blot out Amalek's seed and other Canaanites, if one fails acting upon this law anytime a descendant of such tribes is genetically identified, then one becomes subject to divine anger as what happened to king Saul 1Sam28:18,1Chr10. Saul suffered a violent and dishonourable death. His household was decimated at the hands of the Philistines who also dispossessed his community. The same happened prior to the entire Israelite community that was sent for a 40 years desert wandering for their refusal to engage the promised land's natives in battle.

Along with those known, compulsory genocidal warfare as described earlier, during which no atrocities towards men, women, children, cattle and plants may be spared, there are laws relating to optional warfare, for the sole purpose of Israel's "national glory" as labelled by their rabbis. In such cases any random nation the Israelites arbitrarily choose, and set themselves out to conquer can either be "peacefully" submitted, resulting in the enslavement and taxation of its population, or in case of their rejection of the "peace offer", a military subjugation resulting with the execution of all adult males, the capture as spoils of war of their women, children, and livestock
Deut20:10-14"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby".
In addition, should it be necessary to completely subdue that nation
2Kings3:19"you shall fell every good tree, and you shall stop up all springs of water, and you shall clutter every good field with stones".
In the land of Canaan, those natives that werent driven out or exterminated as per the Torah's injunctions during the invasion, were subdued into slavery Josh17:13. Their descendants suffered the same fate under Solomon's rule 1Kings9:20-1.

After all and as stated in both the HB and the Talmudic writings, the purpose of creation and the reason why the heavens and earth are maintained is for the chosen race to observe Torah.

All these citations werent made to disparage the Bible, rather at pointing what would have been the outcome had the Quran been the product of human base desires, whims, greed and lust. The fact is the Ishmaelites went through almost identical situations as the Israelites in their confrontations with opposing tribes and nations, and yet we do not find anything remotely similar in terms of abuse and excess as is seen throughout the Hebrew writings, and by the hands of true prophets of God.

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

Of course that sura 60 says to be freely mingle with peaceful non Muslims. This negates the first claim.
you heard about abrogation. "mingle" means perhaps using the same street, provided you push him to the narrow parts. And by "peaceful non Muslim" you mean a dhimmi.

And the God of the bible did not order genocides, don't be ridiculous.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

Show the hadith from the prophet Muhammad stating sura 60 was abrogated. Also show that the mingling intended in this particular verse includes pushing dhimmis on the side of the road

Of course that YHWH breaks the golden rule by commanding genocides. See the references above.

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

Eagle you comments are very telling and also quite disturbing. The golden rule is an almost universally accepted principle of ethics that only Islam does not have.

You cannot defend this absence so you make up absurdities about biblical texts. The reality the golden rule is a prominent theme in almost all religions and secular philosophies, and you seem to be ashamed of Islam for so blatantly rejecting it.
"mingling" is not honouring the golden rule. It implies using the same shopping mall. The whole of the Qur'an is about "us and them", you cannot lie to me, I know the text.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:And how does whatever some did or failed to do change what clearly is the teaching of both Judaism and Christianity?
The OT and NT have been fabricated several times over the centuries in order to suit the elder’s political and personal ambitions. So what did they do? Change the verses to suit their trade.

God forbade so and so, yet they kept changing verses until they finally found satisfaction in this world, but they never felt humiliated ... never despised, disgusted, hated, mocked, contempt… never revulsion, repulsion, aversion, scunner, scorn and so on. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

No they haven't. You mean the Qur'an.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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