Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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sum
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Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

From observing world events plus the futile attempts to get our resident muslims to see and accept the faults with the Koran and the inhumanity of Muhammad I am very inclined to believe that indoctrination is the more powerful.

If this is the case then should all muslim children be made to attend the religious education classes in school as part of general education about the various religions which would be purely factual and not a way to convert people? Something must be done to prevent the one-sided indoctrination of Islam into children and so make them aware of the main theme of other religions. It is easier to indoctrinate children than adults and so the children should be the target.

If there are going to be problems with this then please suggest what else could done.

sum

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

From the posts of the present three muslims in the forum it is clear that their indoctrination has affected the function of their brains. All brains should be able to use reason, facts and logic to guide them to form a reasonable conclusion but the impression that I get is that the indoctrination that muslims receive is as though their brains have been circumcised to the point that no matter how many facts and reason are presented to them about the errors and lack of the Golden Rule in the Koran they persist in continuing with their cognitive dissonance.

It is not possible to make any impression upon them. To answer the title of this thread, I would claim that indoctrination is more powerful than reason. This has huge implications for the world.

sum

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manfred
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by manfred »

Sometimes, though, an indoctrination can be overcome, I think. Otherwise why even trying to talk? What is worrying is the apparent inability to process facts and information. Even a simple error is repeated over and over, no matter how many times it is pointed out. It is as if true and false do not matter, only who said this is important.

I agree, that is scary.... I may be wrong, but perhaps sometimes things do "sink in" but it is not admitted.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

Hello manfred

I agree that sometimes indoctrination can be overcome but this is mainly on the individual basis. Mass de-indoctrination is another matter. I often refer back to what Ali Sina says and one thing that stayed with me was that muslims monitor each other as, for example, who does not go to the mosque as he should. The individual is put under pressure and conforms with attendance. If he really has become an apostate then it is very dangerous for him to make it known or even make any impact on the Islamic society. Islamic societies do not have elections as we do and so there is no way that a useful, non-Islamic, vote can be made.

If he is pressured into attending the mosque he is confronted with more Islamic dogma which might swing him back into the Islamic fold. One other thing that Ali Sina claimed was that should the apostate fall victim to one of life`s crises than he is likely to revert back to his early life`s religion and so back to Islam.

Bearing in mind Ali Sina`s upbringing and first hand experience of Islam I do store a lot of faith in what he claims about life for muslims under Islam.

If one follows Bare Naked Islam it is interesting to frequently see the masses supporting Islam and defying modern medicine`s advice regarding measures to limit the spread of Islam. They prefer to believe the Imams and the belief that Allah will protect them in the mosque which will be a covid-19 free zone. Indoctrination in this instance is a demonstration of indoctrination dominating reason. Their minds are damaged and it is the sheer scale of numbers that demonstrate the power of Islamic indoctrination.

sum

Mughal
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:From observing world events plus the futile attempts to get our resident muslims to see and accept the faults with the Koran and the inhumanity of Muhammad I am very inclined to believe that indoctrination is the more powerful.

If this is the case then should all muslim children be made to attend the religious education classes in school as part of general education about the various religions which would be purely factual and not a way to convert people? Something must be done to prevent the one-sided indoctrination of Islam into children and so make them aware of the main theme of other religions. It is easier to indoctrinate children than adults and so the children should be the target.

If there are going to be problems with this then please suggest what else could done.

sum
Dear sum, everyone comes from a social background and becomes used to that way of life till one learns enough to go beyond that to be able to see problems with one's own society or its way of life. Most people are either not bothered with learning or they are stopped from learning by those who become threatened by their learning because the learned are bound to force a change in their societies. This is the main hurdle which for the time most people fail to overcome. To understand all this one has to go back to origin of humanity. We evolved from amongst animals and we learned from our direct interaction with real world realities and that is the way we developed over thousands of generations.

This is where we got our original ways of life from. Only after a lot of bloodshed between us some realised we need more than what we know to live in this world properly. This is when God send his guidance for mankind to follow for living in this world properly. Since then human world has been improving itself to get as close to the standard set by God as it can. That improvement has been very very slow because most of the human world has ignored messages from God because those who controlled others did not let them get out of their control.

This is why unless people clashed with one another they could not get away from each other to think and do their own things to arrive at a right conclusion as to how they should actually live in this world. This is still going on even today and will continue till we have learned our lessons the hard way by hands of each other. So we are slaves to our own societies till we come to know better and then make a push to break away from what is not really good for us. However that will take a lot of time yet.

There are only and only three possible ways of life we can live by. a)our original way of life ie living on basis of personal gains at each other's expense. b) living by way of life advised by God which is living for ensuring well being of one another. c) living in between these two extremes.

Today we are not living by our original way of life and the proof is we human beings are not as bad towards one another as we originally used to be. However after so many human generations we are still not as good towards each other as we should be and as God wanted us to be. Why is that? It is because we humans are not learning things as fast as we should. What is stopping us? We ourselves. Most of us are lazy and some of us are crazy. The world is only getting better because of those who make a lot of sacrifices for God and humanity. The rest are busy digging the pitch and are not bothered either way.

So question for us to address is which side are we on and why or how?

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regards and all the best.

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

There is no way that you can convince anybody of the divine origins of Islam.

Quite simply, if an ideology deviates from the basic humanitarian principle of the "Golden Rule" then it is unacceptable for mankind.

sum

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

One has only to note the present muslims` acceptance of the existence of jinn, which they totally defend, to realise that indoctrination is more powerful than reason.

This raises problems for the world`s population and peace within the world. Should non-muslim majority societies prevent children from going to the mosque for indoctrination? I read several years ago that China banned children going to the mosque until they were 12yrs old. Another poster(ex-muslim) in the forum a long ago claimed that by the time that a child reached his teens he would have become a fully fledged muslim. Game over.

Several years ago, Ali Sina referred to muslims as "zombies" which I thought was a bit harsh but I am now inclined to understand what he meant. All because of indoctrination. It is not the fault of the current muslims but the fault of their upbringing and its indoctrination which has programmed them into beings unable to genuinely think for themselves. They must be mindful that Allah, at all times, knows what is in their hearts and what they are thinking and so they tow the line to avoid the thumbs down on Judgement Day.

sum

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

It would be interesting to have a muslim comment. Are SAM, Eagle or Mughal willing to give their comments on this matter? What do they believe? Do they believe that they have been indoctrinated? Do they believe that there is such a thing as indoctrination?

sum

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

Hello muslims

As your ideology says - "Silence is consent". Does this imply that you all agree that indoctrination can be applied to establish any ideology including Islam? If indoctrination is used to establish Islam do you agree that it is more powerful than facts and reason?

Please answer my question.

sum

Nosuperstition
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by Nosuperstition »

I think sum had already answered his own question in some other previous post.A technique one uses for indoctrination is to put so much religion/religious stories into one's brain such that no memory is left for other activities.Capacitor of Brain charged to the full and unable to discharge it.Couple it with reasoning being not at all taught in schools,you can create zombies.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

sum
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by sum »

If we had to judge on which is more powerful - indoctrination or reason - and we use Eagle, SAM and Mughal as evidence then indoctrination wins by a mile.

sum

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manfred
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Re: Which is more powerful - reason or indoctrination?

Post by manfred »

I agree... indoctrination is incredibly powerful, and only exceptionally can such a person reached with reason. SAM illustrated it perfectly in a recent post, when he said he would not read a biology paper on fungi because it was "atheist".
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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