has humanity understood the quran properly?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »




sum
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Glad you are back.

I think that humanity does understand the Koran but there is one question that must be asked.

Did Muhammad fully and correctly understand the Koran?

sum

User avatar
Fernando
Posts: 4949
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Fernando »

Welcome back, Mughal.
Sum was nearly there, when he asked whether Mohammed understood the Koran properly. But the real question is "did Allah understand the Koran corectly?". After all, he wrote the thing and declared it to be easy to understand. If it itsn't, it's Allah's fault not mankind's.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Glad you are back.

I think that humanity does understand the Koran but there is one question that must be asked.

Did Muhammad fully and correctly understand the Koran?

sum
Dear sum, humanity does not understand and cannot understand the quran fully. The reason is human knowledge depends upon human research and exploration or experimentation and experience. People can only understand the quran as far as they have reached in the process of their learning.

According to the quran all the messengers Allah sent for humanity were human beings ie they went through same process of learning knowledge as anyone else. The only additional knowledge that came to them was sent to them by God. Of that revelation they understood as much as it was possible for them to understand according to the level of their learning.

You will see many children memorise a book or story but they do not really understand it till they grow up enough and become learned enough where at they could make sense of whatever they have memorised. So having factual information about something is one thing but having proper sense of that information is quite another matter. That cannot come till one has learned sense of making proper sense of information.

As I have explained already in my various posts on this forum, I have my own understanding of things instead of following others blindly.

What is important to understand is, God could not have revealed his message any other way for humanity to serve his purpose of creation. God decided to express himself so he created the universe but he also wanted to be appreciated so he created human beings. Since he wanted to be appreciated freely so he created human beings with ability of making choices as well as he created them as babies so that they know nothing at all when they are born and learn to discover themselves and everything else including God with a little bit help from his revelations.

Had God created people fully learned or knowledgeable then people could not have appreciated God by discovering God by their own hard efforts.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:Welcome back, Mughal.
Sum was nearly there, when he asked whether Mohammed understood the Koran properly. But the real question is "did Allah understand the Koran corectly?". After all, he wrote the thing and declared it to be easy to understand. If it itsn't, it's Allah's fault not mankind's.
Thank you for your welcome dear fernando. As for your question did Allah understand the quran? If it is his word then surely he did.

You are talking about a repeated verses in surah 54. Please read other verses of the surah as well to help you clarify context in which God is talking. Word translated as easy is YASSAR which is from root YAA, SEEN and RAA. This root has many meanings including word easy. Likewise word ZIKR from root ZAAL, KAAF and RAA has many meanings.

We human beings know from our own life experiences that there is nothing easy in life. Our birth is not easy neither is our death or living in this world. In the quran God himself has said that he has put humanity through a very hard struggle so that purpose of God could become fulfilled for which he created the universe and people in it. So the quran is not saying that the quran is easy to understand for people but that it could become easy once it is understood. You see when we have not done something before and we have to do it the very first time, it seems difficult or very hard but once we have experienced it and become experts in something then it become easy or a piece of cake. So anything is easy for human beings which they have learned and all things seem difficult which one has not done before.

Moreover I have explained already the way for understanding the text of the quran so one should take advantage of that.

Regards and all the best.

User avatar
Centaur
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:14 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Centaur »

Mughal wrote:
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Glad you are back.

I think that humanity does understand the Koran but there is one question that must be asked.

Did Muhammad fully and correctly understand the Koran?

sum
Dear sum, humanity does not understand and cannot understand the quran fully. The reason is human knowledge depends upon human research and exploration or experimentation and experience. People can only understand the quran as far as they have reached in the process of their learning.

According to the quran all the messengers Allah sent for humanity were human beings ie they went through same process of learning knowledge as anyone else. The only additional knowledge that came to them was sent to them by God. Of that revelation they understood as much as it was possible for them to understand according to the level of their learning.

You will see many children memorise a book or story but they do not really understand it till they grow up enough and become learned enough where at they could make sense of whatever they have memorised. So having factual information about something is one thing but having proper sense of that information is quite another matter. That cannot come till one has learned sense of making proper sense of information.

As I have explained already in my various posts on this forum, I have my own understanding of things instead of following others blindly.

What is important to understand is, God could not have revealed his message any other way for humanity to serve his purpose of creation. God decided to express himself so he created the universe but he also wanted to be appreciated so he created human beings. Since he wanted to be appreciated freely so he created human beings with ability of making choices as well as he created them as babies so that they know nothing at all when they are born and learn to discover themselves and everything else including God with a little bit help from his revelations.

Had God created people fully learned or knowledgeable then people could not have appreciated God by discovering God by their own hard efforts.

regards and all the best.
can you answer the question instead of story telling and humanity blah blah. Are you implying muhammed was a less human?
Click to win $50,0000 :rock:

only 2% of KKK are radical, the rest are peaceful law abiding moderates
Islamic Football Team: Striker:Extremist; Defender: Moderate One; Goallie :Leftist

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Centaur wrote:
Mughal wrote:
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Glad you are back.

I think that humanity does understand the Koran but there is one question that must be asked.

Did Muhammad fully and correctly understand the Koran?

sum
Dear sum, humanity does not understand and cannot understand the quran fully. The reason is human knowledge depends upon human research and exploration or experimentation and experience. People can only understand the quran as far as they have reached in the process of their learning.

According to the quran all the messengers Allah sent for humanity were human beings ie they went through same process of learning knowledge as anyone else. The only additional knowledge that came to them was sent to them by God. Of that revelation they understood as much as it was possible for them to understand according to the level of their learning.

You will see many children memorise a book or story but they do not really understand it till they grow up enough and become learned enough where at they could make sense of whatever they have memorised. So having factual information about something is one thing but having proper sense of that information is quite another matter. That cannot come till one has learned sense of making proper sense of information.

As I have explained already in my various posts on this forum, I have my own understanding of things instead of following others blindly.

What is important to understand is, God could not have revealed his message any other way for humanity to serve his purpose of creation. God decided to express himself so he created the universe but he also wanted to be appreciated so he created human beings. Since he wanted to be appreciated freely so he created human beings with ability of making choices as well as he created them as babies so that they know nothing at all when they are born and learn to discover themselves and everything else including God with a little bit help from his revelations.

Had God created people fully learned or knowledgeable then people could not have appreciated God by discovering God by their own hard efforts.

regards and all the best.
can you answer the question instead of story telling and humanity blah blah. Are you implying muhammed was a less human?
Dear centaur, I do not tell stories but explain needed or necessary rules for proper understanding of the quran. If one does not know formulas for solving mathematical problems then one cannot no matter how hard one tries. Similarly anyone who claims to understand the quran perfectly is fooling oneself because none can understand the quran completely perfectly. After all we human beings whose learning starts from the day we are born till we die yet there is no end to learning about things. It is time you started looking for answers to your questions from the quran by learning to understand the quran by yourself. All I am doing is explaining the way to do so. This will free you from all biases and prejudices and you will be able to make sound judgement about the quran.

Free your mind from all nonsense and be sincere in studying the quran for yourself. The quran tells people to do this that is why people say TAOOZ and TASIYAH before reading the quran. The verses translate I seek refuge in Allah from the satan the rejected one and I begin in the name of Allah merciful and beneficent. Who is satan? A mulla who misinterprets the quran for his own reasons or a religious or spiritual leader or a money lender or capitalist who uses his money system against system of God. So one has to be careful what one has in one's mind before reading the quran otherwise one will see things in the quranic message which are not there.

Regards and all the best.

User avatar
Centaur
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:14 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Centaur »

Dear centaur, I do not tell stories but explain needed or necessary rules for proper understanding of the quran. If one does not know formulas for solving mathematical problems then one cannot no matter how hard one tries. Similarly anyone who claims to understand the quran perfectly is fooling oneself because
you cant start your argument on a false premise like your assumption that Quran is somehow a book from God almighty and every one considers it so. Then, your argument goes like this, humanity don't understand spaghetti monster and will never understand fully. what kind of logic is that?. Leaving that aside can you, now answer the question,as Quran says Mohamed is the best pattern of conduct for humans to emulate, Do you believe Mohammad understood Quran? its a simple question which so far you weren't willing to answer.
Click to win $50,0000 :rock:

only 2% of KKK are radical, the rest are peaceful law abiding moderates
Islamic Football Team: Striker:Extremist; Defender: Moderate One; Goallie :Leftist

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Centaur wrote:.... like your assumption that Quran is somehow a book from God almighty and every one considers it so. Then, your argument goes like this, humanity don't understand spaghetti monster and will never understand fully. what kind of logic is that?. Leaving that aside can you, now answer the question,as Quran says Mohamed is the best pattern of conduct for humans to emulate, Do you believe Mohammad understood Quran? its a simple question which so far you weren't willing to answer.
More succinctly. what exactly Mohammad behaviour and conduct merits blind emulation of his behaviour.?

dear mughal please tell me - what is your understanding of "cult personality". Muhammad was a cult leader - much like Jim Jones in Giana, or L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology was.

User avatar
Fernando
Posts: 4949
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Fernando »

Mughal wrote:You are talking about a repeated verses in surah 54. Please read other verses of the surah as well to help you clarify context in which God is talking. Word translated as easy is YASSAR which is from root YAA, SEEN and RAA. This root has many meanings including word easy. Likewise word ZIKR from root ZAAL, KAAF and RAA has many meanings.
Thank you, Mughal. You may have noticed that I have remarked on other threads about using the roots of Arabic words to win arguments. I'm afraid that by using them here, you are losing the argument: if the words Allah used have so many different meanings, Allah has failed to make his Koran easy to understand. I don't know whether this is an unavoidable problem with Arabic. As others have pointed out, it happens in other languages but I don't think it is anything like as bad. If Arabic is/was like that, why didn't Allah choose a more suitable language? Latin was very well developed and widespread at the time and I don't recall its being very ambiguous when I was at school. Indeed, I found it quite difficult to attach even a single meaning to some words! :sml:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Centaur wrote:
Dear centaur, I do not tell stories but explain needed or necessary rules for proper understanding of the quran. If one does not know formulas for solving mathematical problems then one cannot no matter how hard one tries. Similarly anyone who claims to understand the quran perfectly is fooling oneself because
you cant start your argument on a false premise like your assumption that Quran is somehow a book from God almighty and every one considers it so. Then, your argument goes like this, humanity don't understand spaghetti monster and will never understand fully. what kind of logic is that?. Leaving that aside can you, now answer the question,as Quran says Mohamed is the best pattern of conduct for humans to emulate, Do you believe Mohammad understood Quran? its a simple question which so far you weren't willing to answer.
Dear centaur, please see my reply to same set of questions to sum in my other post.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:
Centaur wrote:.... like your assumption that Quran is somehow a book from God almighty and every one considers it so. Then, your argument goes like this, humanity don't understand spaghetti monster and will never understand fully. what kind of logic is that?. Leaving that aside can you, now answer the question,as Quran says Mohamed is the best pattern of conduct for humans to emulate, Do you believe Mohammad understood Quran? its a simple question which so far you weren't willing to answer.
More succinctly. what exactly Mohammad behaviour and conduct merits blind emulation of his behaviour.?

dear mughal please tell me - what is your understanding of "cult personality". Muhammad was a cult leader - much like Jim Jones in Giana, or L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology was.
Dear hombre, cult is personality based but the teachings in the quran are about constitution and law. The quran teaches us to learn to live or abide by law of God not by any person or king or human ruler. This is why islam is deen not mazhab. A muslim is a person who accepts living by rule of law of God in this world rather than by law of a person or persons. This is why in deen of islam monarchy is forbidden and so is forbidden any mechanism whereby one person could negatively exploit another. No human being is allowed to trap another in order to stop or slow down one's development and progress. This is why money based business concept is also forbidden because thereby people profit at the expense of each other. People inflict losses on each other in order to have monopoly over things through business deals. This is why any way of life other than the one given by God is anti deen of islam. This is why there is no concept of priesthood in deen of islam whereby people could be exploited negatively by religious leaders. The fact is islam which is pushed by mullas is very opposite of what actual islam is.

The quran is very clear about all these things. Deen of islam is mainly about proper community network of humanity called ummah. You cannot become an ummah or remain an ummah if you exploit each other negatively whereby you end up inflicting losses upon each other. People who have changed meanings of quranic words why could they not have written books to further their own agendas in the name of God and his messengers? This is why their books are not as trustworthy as the quran so anything found in them against the quranic concepts is not acceptable at all. Deen of islam is based upon quran alone because that is the only book which is from God as far as deen of islam is concerned. Since deen of islam is quraan based not prophet based therefore whatever mistakes prophets made (as is stated in the quran) do not affect the authenticity of the quran or deen of islam. Despite making odd mistakes as stated in the quran all the messengers of God were a great people according to God himself. The quran does not claim all messengers of Allah were perfect ie they never made any mistakes at all rather they did their best according to their God given abilities in light of messages of god they received and that is why they were the best example of human beings.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear frankie, you need to learn the way for understanding the quran which works and not the way people tell you which clearly does not work. All tafaseer of the quran are full of mistakes and no one says they are not. It is because they are thoughts and opinions of their authors..
Arn't you one of the same authors? yes, you are. By writing a whole book on the Quran with your own thoughts, opinions & interpretations - indeed you are one of them.
Dear hombre, it is not just opinions but right or wrong opinions in light of rules of judgement and real world realities. A teacher tells his pupils how to solve a problem and once they come to know the formula they can solves problems by themselves and they can also catch out the teacher when their teacher makes mistakes in solving a problem. I have been learning from same people whose mistakes I came to know and am trying to correct those mistakes, so what is wrong with that?

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:
Mughal wrote:You are talking about a repeated verses in surah 54. Please read other verses of the surah as well to help you clarify context in which God is talking. Word translated as easy is YASSAR which is from root YAA, SEEN and RAA. This root has many meanings including word easy. Likewise word ZIKR from root ZAAL, KAAF and RAA has many meanings.
Thank you, Mughal. You may have noticed that I have remarked on other threads about using the roots of Arabic words to win arguments. I'm afraid that by using them here, you are losing the argument: if the words Allah used have so many different meanings, Allah has failed to make his Koran easy to understand. I don't know whether this is an unavoidable problem with Arabic. As others have pointed out, it happens in other languages but I don't think it is anything like as bad. If Arabic is/was like that, why didn't Allah choose a more suitable language? Latin was very well developed and widespread at the time and I don't recall its being very ambiguous when I was at school. Indeed, I found it quite difficult to attach even a single meaning to some words! :sml:
Dear fernando, I did not say and never said the quran was easy to understand unless it was once understood properly and then it was taught correctly thereafter. Allah will have failed if there was no way at all to decode the message in the quran for humanity but as I have explained in my other posts the way to decode message of God so at least there is a way to do so and when more and more people will apply it to solve this problems it will become solved after a while but if people will not bother to employ the method then that is failure of people not God because people are not under control of God in this regard due to being given freedom of choice. Moreover the points you have raised about arabic language have been explained already in my other posts.

regards and all the best.

sum
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You have one major problem when discussing Islam - Muhammad.

The whole of Islam depends on the words and claims of Muhammad - no one else at all. It is alleged that Allah only communicated with Muhammad as no one else claims to have had instructions from Allah. None saw or heard Gabriel giving Muhammad the revelations. Everything depends on Muhammad`s words.

You always try to avoid any discussion on whether Muhammad could be believed or whether he was the perfect example for mankind to follow, or more likely a charlatan and warlord who was a master of mob psychology. Does his life story bother you?

Do you agree that if Muhammad falls then all Islam falls?

sum

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You have one major problem when discussing Islam - Muhammad.

The whole of Islam depends on the words and claims of Muhammad - no one else at all. It is alleged that Allah only communicated with Muhammad as no one else claims to have had instructions from Allah. None saw or heard Gabriel giving Muhammad the revelations. Everything depends on Muhammad`s words.

You always try to avoid any discussion on whether Muhammad could be believed or whether he was the perfect example for mankind to follow, or more likely a charlatan and warlord who was a master of mob psychology. Does his life story bother you?

Do you agree that if Muhammad falls then all Islam falls?

sum
I also have noticed our friend avoids any discussions about Muhammad - nor ever mentions him here. I will be most interested to read his reply.
So, we are back to that perennial question - WHO AS MUHAMMAD?

User avatar
Fernando
Posts: 4949
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Fernando »

Hombre wrote:I also have noticed our friend avoids any discussions about Muhammad - nor ever mentions him here. I will be most interested to read his reply.
So, we are back to that perennial question - WHO AS MUHAMMAD?
It's not surprising that Mughal never mentions Mohammed - after all, the Koran hardly ever does! :whistling:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Presumetly, in Quran Muhammad is reffered to as "Messanger of Allah", or "Apastle". Both concotted by none other then Muhammad himself.

sum
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

To Mughal, Muhammad is Islam`s Achilles Heel and I agree with Mughal.

Muhammad is the greatest weakness in the Islamic ideology.

sum

User avatar
Fernando
Posts: 4949
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Fernando »

sum wrote:To Mughal, Muhammad is Islam`s Achilles Heel and I agree with Mughal.

Muhammad is the greatest weakness in the Islamic ideology.

sum
There must be a proverb, or an aphorism or something, in there somewhere. Like a paraphrase of the treacle tin's motto:
"Out of strength comes forth weakness''.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Post Reply