the seat of thought and intention

[manfred]

It may be worth mentioning that throughout antiquity and the Middle Ages, up to the 17th century, the seat of human thought as well as emotions where thought to be in the heart. Aristotle said so, and the only notable person in antiquity slightly disagreeing is the physician Galen, who believed that thought happened in “empty spaces” in the head, and the brain was no more than a sort of cooling pump for the body, as Aristotle had suggested long ago.
A divinely authored text, one would assume, would either correct this odd idea, or at least ignore it. The Qur’an, however, does neither: it uncritically repeats it.

So have they not travelled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.
Qur’an 22:46

Here the heart is described as the place of reason, the organ producing thought. It is not allegorical, because it is plainly mentioned on the same plane as ears: the heart is for reasoning, the ears for hearing.
The same again here:

And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.
Qur’an 7:179

Again, the heart is the organ responsible for reasoning and understanding, in exactly the same way as eyes are for seeing and ears for hearing. Again, therefore, any allegorical reading is ruled out by the text.
The theologically absurd idea that God creates things specifically for hell is also a recurring theme in the Qur’an, but that is another topic.

A similar idea is also expressed in these two verses:
Unquestionably, they the disbelievers turn away their breasts to hide themselves from Him. Unquestionably, [even] when they cover themselves in their clothing, Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare. Indeed, He is knowing of that within the breasts.
Qur’an 11:5

Here you are loving them but they are not loving you, while you believe in the Scripture - all of it. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe." But when they are alone, they bite their fingertips at you in rage. Say, "Die in your rage. Indeed, Allah is knowing of that within the breasts."
Qur’an 3:119

In both verses it is held that “within the breasts” are found thought and intentions.
So, as in many previous examples, this shows that The Qur’an does not, by a very long way, stand up to its own claim of having divine authorship.

[sum]

Those Koranic quotes, plus the sun setting in a muddy pool, could never be written by an all knowing and all wise deity.

Where could these quotes come from? It can only be Muhammad. He was an exceptional conman.

sum

[Fernando]

It may be worth mentioning that throughout antiquity and the Middle Ages, up to the 17th century, the seat of human thought as well as emotions where thought to be in the heart. Aristotle said so, and the only notable person in antiquity slightly disagreeing is the physician Galen, who believed that thought happened in “empty spaces” in the head, and the brain was no more than a sort of cooling pump for the body, as Aristotle had suggested long ago.

Well well well! I'd read that Aristotle was the source of the idea that women had semen in (i.e. within) their hair. I didn't know that Galen postulated a cooling pump in the head to keep their semen cool. I'm at a loss, though, to understand how hiding the "semen" under a scarf wouldn't counteract the cooling effect of the brain and reduce fertility as do tight underpants.

On a more serious note, I think the idea of emotions seated in the heart isn't an unreasonable pre-scientific idea: one does feel sensations seemingly in one's chest, when moved emotionally.

[Fernando]

Those Koranic quotes, plus the sun setting in a muddy pool, could never be written by an all knowing and all wise deity.

Where could these quotes come from? It can only be Muhammad. He was an exceptional conman.

sum

Obvious nonsense of course, sum - but did Mo have any original thoughts? Maybe he got the daft notion of the muddy pool from some other story. It's too late now to bother, but it might be worth a bit of digging.

[manfred]

I didn't know that Galen postulated a cooling pump in the head to keep their semen cool. I'm at a loss, though, to understand how hiding the "semen" under a scarf wouldn't counteract the cooling effect of the brain and reduce fertility as do tight underpants.

Maybe the headscarf functions rather like a fridge door?

[Eagle]

These verses speak of spiritual insight, not the material or wordly hearing, vision and deductions. These matters of the soul, the center of spiritual receptivity and their physical location in the human body are unknown.

In the Quran, there are physical and spiritual senses. One can have the former while lacking the latter, ie unable to perceive the spiritual portent of things, as made clear in the verse from sura 7 alluded to above, just as one can have a mind/aql to reason intellectually but is unable to arrive to the correct spiritual deductions because of a hardenned QALB/heart 2:73-4.

The Quran says the QALB/heart is where spiritual insight and deductions occur, and further locates it in the the SADR 22:46,49:7.

SADR means CHEST, as well as the additional conceptual meaning of container of secrets. The Quran doesnt say that the source of intellectual, material, wordly thought is in the sadr/chest.

The root Qaf-L-B means turning 180 degrees, upside down or inside out. Because moods and emotions change in such a manner, the word was applied to the heart which is the organ that manifests our changing moods and emotions.
Another word used in the Quran for the heart is FUAD, from the root F-Hamza-D which primarily means the oven or the fire with which one cooks or grills and so on. It is a source of energy, hence its use for the blood pump inside us, our source of energy within. QALB and FUAD, when used for the heart, cover 2 different aspects of the organ pumping blood inside us.

The now educated Judeo-Christian critics should now compare the above to what is stated throughout the Bible, about the the heart that is obstinate, forgets, knows things, grudges, rejoices and despairs, hides thoughts or silently formulates them, has desires, understands things, reasons and memorizes, is the place where thoughts are put together before being expressed Matt9:4,12:34,13:15,15:18,15:19,Mk2:8,Lk2:19,5:22,Jn12:40,Acts 8:22,Rom10:6,1Cor14:25,Isa6:10,44:18,Gen6:5,24:45,Deut2:30,4:9,8:5,15:10,28:65,1Sam1:13,23:20.

[manfred]

Oh dear, eagle, you completely missed the point.

Look at the way the Qur'an speaks:

They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear.

In this verse it mentions three part of the body and ascribes a FUNCTION to each: eyes to see, ears to hear, and HEARTS (not "BRAINS", nor even "MINDS") to understand.

What it is they do not understand, whether it is something "spiritual" (of which Islam is entirely devoid) or their mom's shopping list is an irrelevant point: in the end ALL seeing, hearing and understanding is processed the same way.


Then you come with a tu quoque: "look, the bible does it too!" How many times does that need to be explained? The bible does not make a claim of divine authorship, and it is a collection of texts by many writers, written a various times, up to 1000 years apart, each with their own message and each text has GENRE, i.e. there are poems, songs, historical accounts, stories, and much more.

The Qur'an are the ramblings of a medieval Arab who completed his "book" in about 2 decades, mostly from plagiarised material.

So did the authors of the bible assume that thinking happens in the heart? Most likely yes, as that was the prevalent view of their times. Does that explain why the Qur'an does the same? No, it doesn't. Just as the workings of a steam train does not explain how a toilet flush works.

Well, if we agree that Mohammed made it all up, then it makes perfect sense. But if you assume some divine authorship, then obviously, those few verses alone disprove that, not to mention the great many other such things.

[Eagle]

Sure it mentions 3 organs. But it isnt speaking of their physical, material, wordly function. It is talking of their spiritual function and until proven otherwise, the center of spiritual understanding is the heart.

The issue with the Bible, from the HB to the Greek Testament, and their faulty representation of the heart's physical function, was to show that one shouldnt attempt throwing stones at others when their own house is made of glass.

[manfred]

Sure it mentions 3 organs. But it isnt speaking of their physical, material, wordly function. It is talking of their spiritual function and until proven otherwise, the center of spiritual understanding is the heart.

The issue with the Bible, from the HB to the Greek Testament, and their faulty representation of the heart's physical function, was to show that one shouldnt attempt throwing stones at others when their own house is made of glass.

It isnlt made of glass. I don't claim that the authors of biblical texts never made any mistakes.

And the "center" of "spiritual understanding is the heart?

So, when you understand Pythagoras' theorem, then its the brain, but when it says "spriritual" things, such as unbelievers are dumber than cattle, then the "heart" understands that?

Maybe you should start using your brain a bit more.

The heart is a pump. It pumps blood. It is controlled by the brain to just do that, in accordance of the needs of the body.

Tell me then, if someone had a heart transplant, does he retain his original "spiritual insights" (kill the infidel, Jews are apes and pigs, and such pearls of wisdom) or does he get the ones from the donor? Or does he start fresh?

[Eagle]

What happens to the physical body has no effect on the spiritual body, exactly as the verse from sura al aaraf says, one might have the physical eyes while lacking spiritual insight just as one might have a mind/aql but a heart/qalb that is unable to understand the higher realities, as stated in sura baqara.

Jews arents apes, neither are they serpents, race of vipers, sons of hell, hypocrites, blind fools, wicked and adulterous, whitewashed tombs which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean, full of hypocrisy and wickedness, unmarked graves which men walk over without knowing it, among other pearls of wisdom which the Greek Testaments states, through Jesus' mouth, that they should be hidden from the dogs and swine...

[Eagle]

As to the passing allusion to God creating people for hell. That is not what the last revelation to mankind states, on the contrary, it says the creation of man is a natural consequence of God's attribute of mercy.

After detailing the divine law of retribution on a nation of rejectors and saying how Allah only destroys it after it has become utterly corrupt 11:116-7 the Quran says that God could prevent such doom by forcing mankind to be a single nation however people will keep differing regarding the Truth 11:118 and that is because, as a natural consequence of freedom of choice

92:4"Your striving is most surely (directed to) various (ends)".

Allah then states that those who are united owe it to His mercy, and all mankind has been created for that goal: to receive God's mercy

"and for this did He create them"

or as the Psalmist says in the HB

Ps144:9"The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are on all His works".

Mercy is a particular attribute of God, described as being "ordained" upon God's self 6:12,54. None of the other divine attributes have been described with this expression

"kataba ala nafsihi".

This statement is meant to emphasize that Allah is merciful but also that Allah made mercy a self imposed mandate upon himself. An interesting parallel can be made with a statement from the Tanakh

Psalms89:3"a world which manifests Your loving kindness, You did build".

Giving requires a receiver. So God created human beings to be the recipients of His bounty. He has brought mankind into existence and established a system of moral accountability it is therefore natural that He makes all necessary arrangements for a just retribution

41:2"A revelation from the Beneficent, the Merciful Allah".

Spiritual guidance is a natural consequence of this Mercy, despite most men being unworthy of it

43:5"shall We then turn away the reminder from you altogether because you are an extravagant people?"..

But since Allah's mercy is contingent on man's initial willingness and openess to guidance

13:11"surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition"

7:156" and My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it (specially) for those who guard (against evil) and pay the poor-rate, and those who believe in Our communications"

all people do not receive it automatically as stated in 11:118.
11:119 is a confirmation of this law of causality, that men will by nature always differ regarding the truth 11:118, with perspectives and opinions as varied as the ever-changing patterns and meanders in the sky 51:7-9. They will always be prone to intellectual dissension because God has decreed that His guidance is not a compulsion 2:253, that people must choose their paths freely after guidance has been made clear to them 2:213,10:19,42:14,21 and consequently to that decree or "word" by Allah there will be people punished in Hell. The HB contains the same concept when it states that

Prov16:4"The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil".

God has thus pre-ordained that the wicked will be led to painful suffering, not that they were from the onset made wicked and consequently punished for it.
That is the meaning of "the word" and its "fulfillment" referred to in 11:119 and elsewhere

36:7,40:5-6,41:25,46:18,38:84-5"The truth then is and the truth do I speak: That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all".

Allah will, according to His pre-ordained plan of causality in which He is in full control, fill hell with those creatures endowed with freewill who choose the misguidance of evil agents to His guidance

"and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together".

This law of causality to which humans and jinn have been subjected to and that may lead them to either punishement or reward obeys to a simple common sense logic referred to in many places such as in 32:15-20 or this verse from sura al aaraf which was quoted in the OP

7:179"And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones".

As stated in the second part of the verse, the category of people that have been made for hell are those who are heedless to their spiritual senses, not that they have been made from birth with those characterisitics, meaning their final destination is nothing but a natural consequence of their spiritual condition.

[manfred]

You have two bodies, eagle... just as I have seven intestines?

It is beyond stupid to constantly re-write the Qur'an. It says what it says. ears to hear, eyes to see, HEARTS to understand. Not Brains.

I asked you what happens to the "understanding" of a man who has a heart transplant. Two choices:

a) his "understanding" becomes that of the donor.
b) his "understanding" remains as before.

Please choose.

What you in reality is doing is retroactively applying a modern idea to the text of the Qur'an. We also still say things like "I had a change of heart." But we all understand this to be an allegorical phrase, synonymous to "I changed my mind".

The Qur'an clearly does NOT mean that, as it speaks of the FUNCTION of three bodily organs, eyes, ears and heart. It states that the heart is the organ responsible for understanding, in exactly the same say as eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. This is exactly in line with thinking at the time, so Allah was a 6th century Arab, it seems.


As to the doctrine of pre-determination which is clearly established in Islam despite of the fact that you are trying to hide it, that is a topic of its own. Allah, who tortures whoever he wants to, as the QUr'an tells us, made many people (and jinn) purely to torture them in hell. As he MADE them for this purpose, they are not responsible for their nature. This means Allah is as evil and sadistic as Mohammed was, something that is hardly surprising.

[Eagle]

There is no notion of predetermined people for hell in Islam as shown above, just as there is no rewrite of the verses in question. Only proper reading skills. The verse speaks of the spiritual function of these organs, not their material or wordly function.

A transplanted heart doesnt change the condition of the spirit just as a body reduced to ashes and resurrected doesnt affect the soul.

And yes, a believer has 2 bodies of which he is conscious of and maintains, each according to its needs.

[manfred]

There is no notion of predetermined people for hell in Islam as shown above, just as there is no rewrite of the verses in question. Only proper reading skills. The verse speaks of the spiritual function of these organs, not their material or wordly function.

A transplanted heart doesnt change the condition of the spirit just as a body reduced to ashes and resurrected doesnt affect the soul.

And yes, a believer has 2 bodies of which he is conscious of and maintains, each according to its needs.

organs have "Spiritual functions"? Explain to me the "spiritual function" of the sphincter muscle. Let me guess.... the release of the solids is it worldly function, and the gases, are they the spiritual thing?

It is not "proper reading skills" to make text say what you wish it to say. It is proper reading skills when you place text into its context, and try to work out what the AUTHOR wanted to say, using all available information. And when you say "there is no re-write", I will grant you that you perhaps not aware of that you are doing that, but to me it is very obvious: because you cannot accept that this is simply wrong, you are concluding that the test "means" something it does not say. Sadly I have seen you do that a hundred times. The use of "heart" as a metaphor is ruled out by the very word of the Qur'an, as it places the heart on the same plane as the ears and eyes.

So, eagle, a Muslim has two bodies... eagle this is getting better and better. Do you claim benefit or pay taxes for both? Do you ever argue with your other self?

And a non-Muslim has how many? I love to hear this explained in detail, and either of you two can do that, I am sure.

Also, as you rightly say that a heart transplant does not (at least not usually) change a person's "understanding", it must be clear that the heart cannot be the seat of understanding.

And nowhere in the verses given does the Qur'an suggest that it means some other kind of heart, or suggest that people have two of them.

All that is you speaking, eagle, not the Qur'an....

[sum]

Hello Eagle

Your quote -
7:179"And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones".

So, Allah condemns to hell those whose heart does not understand. Nothing happens but Allah wills it. This verse is brutal and without understanding or mercy. Why should men be punished for not understanding when it is beyond their ability? This is not a case of understanding but simply of following orders. Do you really believe that trying to sell Islam will persuade everyone to accept it as to most it will be an evil and malignant ideology? Why should people believe in it when there is absolutely no proof that Muhammad was a prophet? Why should anyone accept the word of Muhammad who admitted lying and committed just about every criminal and immoral act that one could think of?

There are many gods out there and up for grabs so please explain why anyone should believe that Islam is the "truth" and the others are not?

sum

[Eagle]

The physical organs with a spiritual function are the ones mentionned. There might be others that also helps one deriving spiritual understanding but the point of the QurAn is already made through these few examples. As to the duality of organs, of course any religious scripture is repleat with such references

Ezek12:2,Jer5:13"they have eyes yet they see not, they have ears yet they hear not".

It is poor reading, as well as reasoning skills to assume that the above is talking of people who are literally blind and deaf instead of describing their inability to perceive the spiritual portent of things through these physical organs.

As to the 2 bodies, sure, a non-Muslims has both, whether he accepts it or not and among the signs of its existence is the self-reproaching conscience, ingrained in all people, making them originally perceive the basic moral limits of behavior whenever they overstep them, as well as man's ability to perceive the existence of an intelligent design (with the most reasonable of all being the Islamic model, in all objectivity). Not a single culture is devoid of these 2 examples, among others the Quran speaks of, except when they willingly cease hearkening these inborn hardwired spiritual mechanisms.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014121 ... -disappear

[manfred]

t is poor reading, as well as reasoning skills to assume that the above is talking of people who are literally blind and deaf instead of describing their inability to perceive the spiritual portent of things through these physical organs.

What is it with you that as an obviously intelligent man you have trouble to get the simplest things.

"they have eyes yet they see not, they have ears yet they hear not".

This, by the way, is another thing Mohammed "borrowed" as it matches the verse above.

Now, what it means depends on CONTEXT. While in some context is could indeed describe some unfortunate wretch who is both deaf and blind, but obviously that is not what is meant here. It applies quite well to you... you hear the message, you see the words, but you cannot deal with them, it is as if nothing sinks in, because you do not process things.

Look again at what Mohammed wrote:

They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear.

He is copying Ezekiel and he is saying much the same thing. The message is clear enough. But that was not the thing I pointed out.

It is HOW he is phrasing his abuse directed at the unbelievers: Three organs he mentions. And wants to say despite of having the facilities nothing is "sinking in". They hear things and yet it is as if they don't. They see things and yet they don't make sense of it.

And now he gives away the era he is writing in: "they have hearts, but they do not understand". Of course we can all follow what he is saying, that is not the point. It is the choice of words: He does not say "they have heads/brains/intelligence and they do not understand", he says "hearts". Why? Because in his days it was believed that the heart was the seat of understanding, and not the brain.

So he simply, without question, repeating a notion we now know to be quite silly.


Lastly.... if you say you are two people, can you marry yourself?

[Garudaman]

humans feels their sensation of their thought in their head/brain, & feels their sensation of their intention in their chest/breast/heart, & is not their thought that makes humans blind, but their intention, like if you have the intention of racist or dont want sharia, your heart/intention would make your brain to conclude that islam teach wrong things & denies any evidence which debunk that conclusion, so yes based on that case, the intention/heart is indeed (indirectly) the source of reasoning, as people need the proper heart for the proper brain-function/reasoning, & dont forget about this verse :

https://www.quora.com/Have-you-heard-ab ... -you-think

QS. 96:13-16. Have you seen if he denies and turns away - Does he not know that Allah sees? No! If he does not desist, We will surely drag him by the forelock - A lying, sinning forelock.

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
humans feels their sensation of their thought in their head/brain, & feels their sensation of their intention in their chest/breast/heart, & is not their thought that makes humans blind, but their intention,

This is nonsense. Thoughts lead to conclusions and intentions, not the other way round. You can not have an intention without the brain having to think either consciously or subconsciously to decide if there is or is not a correct belief or intention. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Your quote -
people need the proper heart for the proper brain-function/reasoning,

Please explain why the heart is needed for proper reasoning. The only function the heart has with regard to this topic is to keep the brain alive and well so that it can reason properly. The heart has no other link at all to reasoning.

If people can not see that if the sun sets in a muddy pool then that claim can not be from a god then their reasoning is very wrong and so would that indicate a faulty heart or just a faulty brain?

sum

[Eagle]

@manfred

The verse from sura al aaraf isnt speaking of intellectual processing through the senses mentionned, but of spiritual processing and this, until proven otherwise, occurs in the heart. As already shown from the example in sura baqara, some might have the mind/aql to think but lack the mechanism to spiritually process what they perceive because of their hardenned hearts.

By borrowing, is one speaking of Jesus' wise humanist utterings reported in the Greek Testament, that were almost all either stated long before in the Tanakh by the likes of Moses, or close to his time by Jewish thinkers, let alone those Pharisees whom Jesus regarded as "sons of satan", such as Hillel -one of the highest Pharisaic authority of his time- who is quoted in the Talmud saying almost word for word what Jesus would utter about a century later

"do to others what you would have them do to you".

When trying to discredit Islam, the poorest and most insignificant of all arguments consists in pointing to the moral truths it contains and arguing they were uttered long before and that the Quran merely copied them, in disregard of the fact the Quran itself recognises it isnt uttering anything new in matters of morality and spirituality, only reminding its listeners to come back to their true selves, but even upholds such principle as a tenet of faith that divine guidance is a continuity that started long before the Torah, down to the Quran. By these same lowly standards, totally insignificant when debating a Muslim, Jesus and all prophets of the Bible were false prophets who merely copied from their predecessors and hardly uttered anything new. Hundreds of quotes, similarities and incidents can be shown attesting to this.