What you don't know about the Quran

[Eagle]

Selective quoting again, even from such basic sources as wikipedia.

The downsizing argument unfortunately (to explain the total absence of reference to the city where one would expect otherwise) causes major problems to the NT fable however. Among many such issues one needs to explain how such a rustic and small clan did not hear of the 12 year old prodigy Lk2 and that none has ever come anywhere near his home to inquire of him (which would then necessarily make the village famous and put it on every map), especially considering the supposedly momentous events indicating that the highly anticipated messiah would soon appear, had happenned just a few years earlier. How did this small hamlet not have seen or heard anything of the visiting magis, coming from far to worship the promised king Matt2. How could their expensive gifts have gone unnoticed within this clan of poor relatives and close friends.

[manfred]

So far I have not seen a single quote of any kind from you and as you have the link you can read all of it... I have given you an answer to as to the alleged non-existence of Bethlehem... Bethlehem as a place is mention in Micah 5:2 . So it was a known place then (about 700 BC) and I already told you of the Hadrian reference.

And as to your question about the three "kings", Matthew tells us how they arrived in Bethlehem. You can either believe him or not, I really could not care less. And you are drawing conclusions from things Matthew simply did not discuss... As to the claim that Jesus's claim to be the messiah "put Bethlehem (and/or Nazareth) on the map", well, it did! But not until AFTER Jesus himself also became a well know figure, which was obviously not during his childhood.

And obviously you are only talking about any of this because the original topic is too embarrassing.

You seem to have a lot of energy to examine a religion you don't follow... Try and use it to examine the Qur'an in the same way as Ehrmann does with biblical texts. Or is that too scary for you?

[Garudaman]

This surprises you? As I said they are are testimony of FAITH. They wrote down for other what they believe and why. It is less of an "evolution" but an interpretation. They tell us their experience and what it means to them.

their experiences that told different Mary :
1. Mary who know Jesus is Son of God based on his resurrection.
2. Mary who know Jesus is Son of God based on his baptis.
3. Mary who know Jesus is Son of God based on the Angel Gabriel statement.

[manfred]

Are any of these points contradictory. You can "know" things from different sources or for different reasons, surely?

[Garudaman]

if know you based on i met you in London, thats mean i know you not based on i met you in Semarang, even i really met you in Semarang, you could change "based on" become "because of" if you confused.

[manfred]

So if you met me twice you would still know me, based on two meetings?

And do you think "knowing" is always "either - or", black or white? Or can knowledge grow?

Suppose you say "I know the language English". Does than mean you know ALL spelling of ALL words, the meaning of EVERY word and phrase, and ALL grammar rules?

Sure, do do know English, but isn't there always a bit more to find out?

[Garudaman]

Mary still didnt know that Jesus is Son of God even after his several miracles (read also the previous verses) :

Mark 3 (NIV) :
Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

Mary already know that Jesus is Son of God even before his first miracle :

John 2 (NIV) :
On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” 4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” 11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

[manfred]

Garudaman, what is this with you that you don;t understand this?

You took a passage from Mark's gospel and an unrelated one from John's. And neither passage says anything about what Mary knew/believed or did not believe.

Please read Mark's passage fully first.... It says there was a commotion and some religious teachers had an argument with Jesus. His family tried to extract him to avoid possible problems, such as violence. Jesus did not go.

And Mary's part in John;s story about the wine is limited to her merely asking other to do what Jesus is asking, i.e. filling the containers with water.

Let me put it plainly:

Different authors will not always have the exact same story line, in fact of would very odd if they did, it would suggest one copied from the other.

[Garudaman]

“He is out of his mind” is not statement of people who get provoked to start violence, so his family went to take charge of him, because they think Jesus possibly really out of his mind.

& with dialogue like this :

3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” 4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary cerlainly ask Jesus to perform the miracle of make wine.

[manfred]

I did not say that... The people who who wanted to take him away from the crowd (we don't know exactly who they are, maybe friends of the family, many some relatives) saw this as a danger, and thought "he has gone bonkers..." and tried to get him out somehow... maybe they feared a scandal, or possibly violence.

LATER, the mother of Jesus arrives with his brothers, presumably because she was called, and a message is sent to Jesus that his mother wants him. He does not go, and says effectively his discussions are more important.

Mary therefore did not call Jesus mad, as she only arrived at the scene after that. And the whole passage says nothing at all about what Mary actually believed about Jesus at that time.

Similarly, the passing reference in John's gospel that Mary asked people to do as Jesus had requested hardly amounts to much. If you say to your son "put the rice on the table" and your wife says "do as he says." does that mean your wife believes you are the son of God?

Maybe Mary really did at that point believe Jesus would cause a miracle, maybe she was just curious to see what would happen? We are also not told what went through Mary's head in the passage in Mark, except it was NOT HER who claimed her son was mad or possessed. Why are we not told if she was angry, concerned or proud? Because Mark wanted to make a very different point: Jesus had started his teaching period, his ministry. This involved distancing himself from his childhood and his family. Look at how the story ends.

[Hombre]

If I said Donald Duck is real, how do you prove me wrong?

I can. He is real and right now lives in the Whitehouse.

[Garudaman]

(we don't know exactly who they are, maybe friends of the family, many some relatives)

no, we know who :

again a crowd gathered, When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind”

maybe they feared a scandal, or possibly violence

what prophet did or said usually are quite scandalous, & people shouldnt stop thing that prophet do, & there's no possibility of violence from “He is out of his mind” or “He is possessed by Beelzebul”, "possessed by Beelzebul" is certainly not "He suggest to worship/follow Beelzebul" (do Deuteronomy 13 stuff).

Mary therefore did not call Jesus mad, as she only arrived at the scene after that. And the whole passage says nothing at all about what Mary actually believed about Jesus at that time.

the verse said : Mary went to take charge of Jesus, for peoples said “He is out of his mind”, why Mary went take charge of Jesus if she believe there's no any chance Jesus lost/out of his mind?

Similarly, the passing reference in John's gospel that Mary asked people to do as Jesus had requested hardly amounts to much. If you say to your son "put the rice on the table" and your wife says "do as he says." does that mean your wife believes you are the son of God?

Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” 4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

Mary told Jesus “They have no more wine”, & the respond of Jesus is as Mary ask him to make miracle.

[manfred]

again a crowd gathered, When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind”

The word used is not "family" is the way we understand that. It is "family" in the classical sense: people connected to you in every day life. It COULD be blood relatives, but also people like your neighbours, friends your work colleagues, anyone who makes up "your world".

Then ten verses later we are told we are told who were NOT involved in calling Jesus "mad": his mother and his brothers. His father is not mentioned at all, so who could it be? We don't know exactly, as no details are given, because it did not matter much to Mark. So, we can only assume it was perhaps some people who knew Jesus well, and may or may not be physically related to him.

what prophet did or said usually are quite scandalous, & people shouldnt stop thing that prophet do,

and that is more or less what Mark was getting at in the story. Read the end of it.

Why did Mary go there? Well wouldn't any mother on hearing her son may be in possible trouble?

As to John's account of the wedding in Canaan

John does present the story in such a way that Mary has some feeling or understanding that Jesus is special, but he stops short of saying what it is. This in not contradicting what Mark is saying, though, is it?

Also, it is interesting that the story of the marriage in Cana and the wine is not mentioned in the other three gospels, and John treats the story as one (the first) of seven signs.

Right after the wedding, according to John 2:12, Jesus goes to Capernaum and with him are his disciples, but also his mother and his brothers. I think that implies the whole family, including the brothers (and thus the sisters) were not only at the wedding but are now traveling with him. They go to Capernaum, where he sets up a kind “residence” or operational HQ, according to the tradition that Mark has received (see Mark 2:1; 3:19; 9:33 and the references to the house and being “at home”). Mark knows nothing of Cana but John mentions it again when Jesus returns from a trip to Judea, where he stirred up a considerable amount of trouble and needs some place to “lay low.” He and his disciples go back to Cana (John 4:46). Why go back there if the first visit was just for a wedding and had no connection to him? I think this is important in that it seems to become for Jesus a kind of “safe house” or place of operations when he needs to retreat to Galilee, much like Capernaum.

So we can see that the story of Cana and the wine is placed BEFORE the commotion Mark mentions. John does not mention that part, but he does mention that Jesus went to Capernaum after the wedding in Cana, see verse 12. This contradicts your idea Mary was either ignorant of who her son was or thought him mad, and does not match the story line. (Unless you are suggesting Mary had Altzheimer's disease and had forgotten what happened the day before.)

Also, even though Mark does not tell us about the birth of Jesus and the things that come before that, he certainly starts establishing in chapter 1 who in his view Jesus was. The first time Mary is mentioned at all in Mark's gospel is the part you quote, but by then Jesus had, according to Mark, been quite active for quite some time.

And when she does get a mention, it is for a specific narrow purpose: To establish that Jesus quite early on separated from his family and childhood friends, not all of whom understood him.

[Eagle]

It wouldnt be far fetched to suggest Mary at that point, and according to the author of John's gospel, did not know anything special of Jesus hence her taughts about him that he has "gone mad" by attracting so much attention to himself with potential dangerous consequences at the hands of the Jewish elite.

Elsewhere Mary and Joseph are completely ignorant of what Jesus meant when he stated that he "must be concerned with the affairs of my Father" in response to Mary's scolding him because of his disappearance Lk2:42-50 (after the amusing incident where, as they were all returning from Jerusalem where they had attended Passover, they only noticed after a day's walk that the little Jesus had been left behind, prompting their return to Jerusalem, only finding him after 3 days search).

The NT writers not only imply this regarding his parents but also to anyone interracting with him, to whom he was completely unknown in any particular way prior to his ministry in adulthood, see Matt13 for example.
Yet the same NT that tells us his people knew nothing special about him prior to his ministry also tells us of all the wonderful signs and wonders surrounding his first moments as an infant, the celestial signs that prompted both friends and foes to look for him even from outside Palestine, people such as the Magi coming "from the east" to worship the newly born "king of the Jews", and king Herod who, fearing for his throne, began slaughtering all male infants born in Bethleem at that particular time which prompted Mary to flee with her son to Nazareth Matt2.

The NT establishes the fact that it was well known in and outside Palestine that the awaited savior had come, and countless people identified him with Jesus since his youngest days as seen from the time of Mary's miraculous conception which caused Elizabeth to refer to her as "mother of my Lord" as she saw her pregnant Lk1, the shepherds who rushed to Bethleem to see the newly born Messiah of whom the angels told them about and after seeing him Lk2:17"they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them" or Anna, the daughter of Penuel as well as Simeon who recognized in the newly born Jesus the awaited savior and told others about him.

Andnin contrast to this memory lapse by these multitudes, whether close family or people coming from far to see him and then spreading the word about him, we have a mysterious character only found in John3, called Nicodemus, a "ruler of the Jews" who was allegedly attracted to Jesus because of his miracles yet besides the "water to wine" one which made him conclude that "no man can do these miracles..except God be with him", Jesus' hadnt yet performed any miracle, did not begin his ministry, even though Jn2:24 states many miracles were performed only to later claim that a healing he performed in Capernaum was only his second miracle Jn4:54....

[manfred]

Yes, eagle, in fact this is not really discussed in much detail, as neither John nor Mark saw this as a priority. John, as garudaman also pointed out, seems to hint at Mary knowing at least in part, at the point of the wedding in Cana, the role Jesus was about to play, but it really is not a major topic for him.

As to the tale of Jesus being left behind, it does sound a bit like the movie "Home alone", and I am glad to learn it made you laugh. The canonical gospels are sparse with stories about Jesus as a child, unlike later texts which had lots of them, many even stranger. In fact, this story is the only childhood story about Jesus in the canonical gospels.

Luke does not really fully explain the odd scenario that Jesus was left behind and that it took a day to find out, but he hints at it.

He says this:

After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they travelled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him.

From this we can deduce that they travelled in a group, possibly with relatives and friends, and they thought Jesus was with some of them, rather than his parents or brothers. And "for a day" is to be taken loosely, a day's journey would be about 25-30 kilometres. We know this because it took three days to cover the 80 km to Jerusalem, Luke says. In reality, that is 5 to 6 hours a day. So it could be that after they finished the day's trip, i.e. after some 5 or six hours, they discovered he was missing and they went back.

What was the point of Luke, telling us this story? As often that becomes clear if you look at the end of the story.

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

He wanted to make the point that Jesus, in this way, revealed himself (partially) to his parents, but they did not really take it in at that point, at least not fully. It is telling us something quite important: even the ones closest to him need more than some words to understand who he is, it is something that takes not simply a comment, it takes the whole life as he lived it, closely observed, to work it out, and some will never see it. It sets the scene for a much bigger drama. Why did he have to die on a cross to save us, if all that was needed is a word? Well, we have a start to the answer to that question here: God revealing himself to man requires more than words, because we will not easily believe what we are told.

Mary is mentioned again, specially, as one who "treasured all these things in her heart". So Luke is suggesting Mary does not fully get what Jesus was saying to her, but she is pondering on it. Her journey of discovery began at that point, it did not end there.

Also, as this is the ONLY "childhood" story, so it pre-dates, John's account of the Wedding in Cana, and the commotion in Capernaum mentioned by Mark followed at some point after that.

Therefore it would be wrong to conclude that Mary's understanding of Jesus had not developed as time moved on.

[Garudaman]

The word used is not "family" is the way we understand that. It is "family" in the classical sense: people connected to you in every day life. It COULD be blood relatives, but also people like your neighbours, friends your work colleagues, anyone who makes up "your world".

21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

Then ten verses later we are told we are told who were NOT involved in calling Jesus "mad": his mother and his brothers.

they're not & cant be involved, because they're arrived after Mark 3:22-30 dialogue, but they're certainly thought there's possibility Jesus lost/out of his mind.

Why did Mary go there?

to take charge of Jesus, for they said, “Jesus is out of his mind”.

Well wouldn't any mother on hearing her son may be in possible trouble?

possible trouble of her son lost his mind.

This contradicts your idea Mary was either ignorant of who her son was or thought him mad, and does not match the story line. (Unless you are suggesting Mary had Altzheimer's disease and had forgotten what happened the day before.)

thats only true if we have possible interpretation of Mark 3 other than Mary & Jesus brothers thought Jesus may lost his mind.

& what do you think about the respond of Jesus to the crowd who told Jesus that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him?

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.
34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

why Jesus respond to them with the response as if those who believe that Jesus is Son of God/Messenger of God/not crazy preacher, are more Jesus's mother and brothers, compared to his blood mother & brothers, if not because Jesus thought his mother & brothers really thought Jesus may lost his mind/not the Messenger of God?

[manfred]

garudaman, we are going round in circles. I have explained it to you, several times now. Why do you put two verses together as if they follow each other, when they are ten verses apart?

And this is a topic about the Qur'an, so why do you want lengthy discussions about the gospels? It certainly seems that the texts themselves have little interest for you. You know that there are serious problems with the Qur'an's treatment of Mary, so rather than trying to address those you are trying, very feebly, to find problems about Mary in the gospels too.

Well, this particular one really has been answered exhaustively, and I don't want to go over it again, as I am not convinced it even interests you.

why Jesus respond to them with the response as if those who believe that Jesus is Son of God/Messenger of God/not crazy preacher,

Do you really misunderstand that part so completely?

I already mentioned that to you too. This is what Mark wanted to say by telling the whole story... Jesus is starting his ministry, and he needs to step away from his immediate family to do that effectively. Jesus is not responding to the "mad" thing here at all, he is explaining that he is here for all people with good intentions and not just for his family.

Sometimes this passage is read when a man or a woman joins a monastery, to remind people that in following Christ closely, you need to give family and friends "second place".

[Garudaman]

garudaman, we are going round in circles. I have explained it to you, several times now.

debunked explanation is not explanation.

Why do you put two verses together as if they follow each other, when they are ten verses apart?

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

And this is a topic about the Qur'an, so why do you want lengthy discussions about the gospels? It certainly seems that the texts themselves have little interest for you.

because you accused the story of Mary in the Quran is not historical, based on your unhistorical Gospel!

You know that there are serious problems with the Qur'an's treatment of Mary, so rather than trying to address those you are trying, very feebly, to find problems about Mary in the gospels too.

you mean based on your unhistorical Gospel? so why i should address "that problem" while "that problem" actually isnt really problem as your base actually is unhistorical?

Do you really misunderstand that part so completely?

I already mentioned that to you too. This is what Mark wanted to say by telling the whole story... Jesus is starting his ministry, and he needs to step away from his immediate family to do that effectively.

four of the disciples of Jesus are his family : James, Joses, Simon, and Judas.

Jesus is not responding to the "mad" thing here at all, he is explaining that he is here for all people with good intentions and not just for his family.

even while the statement of Jesus technically is the response-statement of the statement “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you (to take charge of you, for they said, “you is out of your mind”)” ?

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Sometimes this passage is read when a man or a woman joins a monastery, to remind people that in following Christ closely, you need to give family and friends "second place".

you mean if their families & friends arent also joins to ministry, right?

[manfred]

debunked explanation is not explanation.

you haven't debunked anything, you simply repeated what you said before, ignoring everything I explained to you.

his family

already explained. "family" is used more more loosely in ancient times than we do today. We know from what follows that his mother and his brothers were not meant with that, as they were not yet present.

they went to take charge of him,

we also know what is meant by that, from the verses that follow: they (some unspecified people close to Jesus) were going to call is mother and brothers.

verses 33-35

Jesus refuses to be called by his mother, saying that he wants to finish what he started.

you mean based on your unhistorical Gospel? so why i should address "that problem" while "that problem" actually isnt really problem as your base actually is unhistorica

l?


The problem in the Qur'an is that it says Jesus is the nephew of Moses, that they knew each other, and Moses was the uncle of Jesus, as Mary was the sister of Moses. Either that or Mary was 1400 years old when Jesus was born....whichever of the two you prefer.

duh....

you mean if their families & friends arent also joins to ministry, right?

A MONASTERY is a place where monks (or nuns) live.

[Garudaman]

already explained. "family" is used more more loosely in ancient times than we do today. We know from what follows that his mother and his brothers were not meant with that, as they were not yet present.

they were already present if the mean of that family are his mother & brothers, especially if they went to take charge of him, except people used to being taken charged by their friend/neighbour.
http://www.sabda.org/sabdaweb/bible/cha ... e=clearsky
http://www.sabda.org/sabdaweb/tools/lexicon/?w=2902
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%C ... E%AD%CF%89

beside that, there's no way a family take charge of their adult family member, except because a thing like, their adult family member being lost of his/her mind, isnt?

verses 33-35

Jesus refuses to be called by his mother, saying that he wants to finish what he started.

Mary & Jesus brothers didnt present when Mark 3:22-30 happen, so Mary wont be know whether Jesus really out his mind or not, thus that calling is for checking whether the rumor is true or not, not for take charge of Jesus, but if Mary was present at that dialogue/Jesus explanation, Mary would be understand that the rumor isnt true thus Mary wont be take charge of Jesus.

The problem in the Qur'an is that it says Jesus is the nephew of Moses, that they knew each other, and Moses was the uncle of Jesus, as Mary was the sister of Moses. Either that or Mary was 1400 years old when Jesus was born....whichever of the two you prefer.

thats not true, the Quran never said that.

A MONASTERY is a place where monks (or nuns) live.

Jesus disciples are the part of the ministry or the monastery of Jesus?