Fernando wrote:Thanks ygalg - well worth 47 minutes of anyone's time.
I see he has some more videos on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvqgVS8KVJA
I'll have to have a look at those too.
For centuries, Western scholars wondered where the Quranic story of Mary giving birth under a palm tree came from. Some pointed out that another apocryphal document, “The Infancy Gospel of Matthew,” also depicts Mary eating from a palm tree and drinking from a miraculous spring. There, however, the incident takes place not during the birth of Jesus but years later.
In the Protevangelium, we read that Jesus was born not in Bethlehem but somewhere in the “desert” between Bethlehem and Jerusalem. Mary, according to this story, went into labor while riding between the towns. Her husband, Joseph, found a nearby “cave” for her and went out to Bethlehem to find a “Hebrew midwife.” When Joseph returned with her, Jesus was born. “My soul has been magnified this day,” the midwife said, according to James’s account, “because my eyes have seen strange things, because salvation has been brought forth to Israel.”
An archaeological discovery shed more light on this curious matter. In 1992, while widening a road between Jerusalem and Bethlehem, the Israeli authorities uncovered the ruins of a long-forgotten Byzantine church: Kathisma of the Theotokos, or “Seat of the God-bearer.”
“God-bearer” is a title for Mary in Eastern Christianity. A common legend held that the Kathisma church was built on a rock on which Mary rested during the flight into Egypt, which, according to the Gospel of Matthew, took place after Jesus was born. But according to scholars, earlier generations believed that this was the very location where Jesus was born — in line with the Protevangelium that describes a midpoint between Jerusalem and Bethlehem — and with the “distant place” described in the Quran.
Moreover, a medieval pilgrim wrote about a sacred water “which came from a rock” at the church. Furthermore, archaeologists found mosaics, and one of them depicted — lo and behold — a palm tree laden with dates! Stephen J. Shoemaker, a professor of religious studies at the University of Oregon, believes “this is almost certainly a representation of the date palm from which the Virgin Mary was miraculously fed.”
manfred wrote:That is an interesting one...
The first thing is to note that Mark and Luke report this story somewhat differently (e.g. one man, not two, and many other differences) compared with Matthew. This suggests it is more of an allegorical tale, a story with a teaching point, and not an accurate account of events.
The unclean spirit is attracted to the unclean beast, and when they combine, they self destruct. This is the point of allegory, I think. Evil destroys not only good, but in the end also itself.
Pigs as a matter of fact do not live in large herds, but if left to their own devices, in family groups, dominated by a "grandma pig", and keeping then like goats in a herd simply does not work. It would be totally impractical to put 2000 pigs into a bit of woodland on top of a hill. The place would be wrecked in hours and the pig would attack each other or run off in different directions.
& again, your question is wrong, as you dont have evidence that its really fairy tale, as you dont really know what happen in the past, as you didnt live since that time!
The New Testament says Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, but one rogue Israeli archaeologist says it is far more likely the Christian savior was born in Bethlehem of the Galilee, more than 60 miles from Jerusalem.
Aviram Oshri spent nearly eleven years excavating artifacts in Bethlehem of the Galilee — an ancient biblical village near Nazareth that was later settled by German Templers — which he believes show that the traditional account of Jesus’s birthplace may be wrong.
But when he produced his findings for his employer, the Israel Antiquities Authority, he found his proposal dismissed and called “worse than a joke."
Archaeological confirmation of Bethlehem as a city in the Kingdom of Judah was uncovered in 2012 at the archaeological dig at the City of David in the form of a bulla (seal impression in dried clay) in ancient Hebrew script that reads "From the town of Bethlehem to the King," indicating that it was used to seal the string closing a shipment of grain, wine, or other goods sent as a tax payment in the 8th or 7th century BCE
After the Bar Kokhba revolt was crushed, Hadrian converted the Christian site above the Grotto into a shrine dedicated to the Greek god Adonis, to honour his favourite, the Greek youth Antinous.
manfred wrote:Well, what would you class as evidence? Please prove to me that Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf are not historical characters. If I said Donald Duck is real, how do you prove me wrong?
manfred wrote:The infant Jesus talking and the palm tree story are both found in apocryphal texts, written many hundreds of years after Jesus. Their account is different from the gospels in the bible. The texts in the bible have all been written by people who met and discussed what they wrote with people who lived with Jesus and followed him. In one case, by a disciple of Jesus.
So which would be a more reliable story.... one that emerged shortly after Jesus died, within a very close group of people where there were many who had known Jesus in person, or one that was written hundreds of years later.... I don;t even want to "prove" the old the text to you, it is up to you want you want to believe, but would you not say that they are better evidence.
And the orthodox church, like all churches, agree that the birth place of Jesus was Bethlehem.
manfred wrote:And what do the pigs of the Gadarenes have to do with any of this?
There is a reason why Jesus is "of nazareth", which is again, another blunder given the total absence of archeological evidence attesting to its existence, as well as the fact that Nazareth is never mentioned in the writings of Josephus, nor is it mentioned in any other first-century writings.
The form Nazara is also found in the earliest non-scriptural reference to the town, a citation by Sextus Julius Africanus dated about 221 AD
Other sources state that during Jesus' time, Nazareth had a population of 400 and one public bath, which was important for civic and religious purposes.
As to the 2 links provided, the first one agrees with Oshri's findings, despite the selective quotes.
thats not true :
manfred wrote:The texts in the bible have all been written by people who met and discussed what they wrote with people who lived with Jesus and followed him. In one case, by a disciple of Jesus.
manfred wrote:within a very close group of people where there were many who had known Jesus in person, or one that was written hundreds of years later....
manfred wrote:And the orthodox church, like all churches, agree that the birth place of Jesus was Bethlehem.
Garudaman wrote:these not true, according to those two video :manfred wrote:The texts in the bible have all been written by people who met and discussed what they wrote with people who lived with Jesus and followed him. In one case, by a disciple of Jesus.manfred wrote:within a very close group of people where there were many who had known Jesus in person, or one that was written hundreds of years later....
& this is not true, as there's still early christians who believe different :manfred wrote:And the orthodox church, like all churches, agree that the birth place of Jesus was Bethlehem.
Matthew – a former tax collector who was called by Jesus to be one of the Twelve Apostles,
Mark – a follower of Peter and so an "apostolic man,"
Luke – a doctor who wrote what is now the book of Luke to Theophilus. Also known to have written the book of Acts (or Acts of the Apostles) and to have been a close friend of Paul of Tarsus,
John – a disciple of Jesus and possibly the youngest of his Twelve Apostles.
THE BIRTH AND CHILDHOOD OF CHRIST
The Roman empire was in effective control of the Middle East after 63 B.C. By permission of the Romans, Herod the Great (a nominal Jew of Idumaean descent) reigned as "king of the Jews" in Palestine from 37 B.C. until his death in 4 B.C. Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, "the city of David," during the latter days of Herod's kingship" (see St. Matthew 2:1, 19).
Garudaman wrote:the first video said that the authors of gospels actually are anonymous & didnt have any correlation with Jesus, & the second video said that whoever the authors of gospels, they're didnt free from the intention of spread their own/personal doctrine & the four canonic gospels were never intended to be historical record but instead doctrinal record.
Garudaman wrote:the second video, which show that there's evolution of Jesus, was prove that the authors of gospels are peoples who arent free from the intention of spread their own doctrine/theological view.
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