Mughal the Infidel.

[Mughal]

The quran was passed on to people by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms that is why the quranic text was copied from the copies provided by the prophet. Had that not been the case we ought to end up with countless variations in copies of the quran of unexplainable nature.

We might still have countless versions, had not Uthman burnt them!

Dear Fernando, we can speculate all we like but we can only work on what we have. We do not have versions of the quran as explained clearly in the links provided already. False propaganda counts for nothing at all. People who have power always come up with a lot of excuses and they will continue and so their excuses will lead them to the ends they have been promised.

In olden times people use to wash off skins to rewrite on them texts of the quran when ink faded away. On other materials things were burnt or placed in water to be washed away or to decompose. This was thought to be respectable way for getting worn out copies of the quran out of circulation. Since copies which contained errors were of that nature they may have been burnt as well. If one knows islamic history muslims ruled a huge chunk of land at the time of uthmanic calaphate and it could not be possible to gather all the copies of the quran. Moreover if people wanted to hide their copies they wanted to keep they could not be found. So all this seems to have been done with full cooperation of the people. Moreover there are many books in which differences have been mentioned so what was point of writing those books if original copies were burnt forcefully?

Even today people have copies of the quran which still contain errors because no one in the area bothered to correct them. Despite all the differences we have only a couple of dozens of copies that have some differences between their texts which could be corrected easily if people decided to do so. All this because most people follow their local traditions blindly. Not only that any people of any country can print copies of the quran with errors and claim there are different versions of the quran. Even the copies which all muslims think have no errors at all may have error in them if one sat down and started to hunt for errors in them. Moreover error can be identified that is why they are called errors otherwise none will know about them. Such errors in my view do not invalidate the quranic text due to being correctable.

regards and all the best.

[manfred]

Mughal, Mughal....

so the creator deliberately created cancer, malaria, blind and mentally handicapped babies....?

Really?

[Hombre]

Even today people have copies of the quran which still contain errors because no one in the area bothered to correct them.

One thing I like to know. "correct errors in Quran". How these errors came about?. Correcting errors against what?. Which version is the "correct" version.?

Otherwise, it seems tacitly you DO admit that, throughout years following Muhammad's death, various Muslim cleric DID take liberty to edit the Quran and insert their own interpretation - much like one of Muhammad own scribes, Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad Bin Sarh did - putting his own words when Muhammad was dictating his revelations.

Therefore, following same logic which you aptly promote - there is no way possible that, Quran of today contain exact same words as those uttered by Muhammad. Himself an illiterate, Muhammad could not verify indeed his exact words were written down by his scribes - yet memorized by other illiterate crowds. Worse yet, 77600 word were passed one word-for-word by same illiterate believers to next generation.

[Mughal]

Mughal, Mughal....

so the creator deliberately created cancer, malaria, blind and mentally handicapped babies....?

Really?

Dear manfred, what you need to realise is full picture of things. The creation is not one thing and then another thing and then yet another thing that have nothing to do with each other instead it is a complete process for a set purpose. Only God knows full well complete picture of things and why each and everything is the way it is but we too can try our best to make sense of things as we have been bestowed with brains and senses.

We know there are lots of participants in this creation which act as causes for many different things. Fire burns but it is also a very useful thing. One may fall into a fire by accident but it will still burn him or her. One person could burn another for one's own reasons. So things act as causes for things and likewise human beings could also be causes for various things. Since God himself plained the whole universe so he ought to have the end purpose to all this in his mind. This is why whatever happens here in this universe and whoever or whatever makes anything happen he will have dealt with it in some way before letting things happen the way they do.

For example, when a human being is born as a baby, he is put through a struggle for survival and it is not an easy struggle at all. It involves lots of trials and errors eg when a baby tries to sit he falls many times over and some times gets hurt. Likewise when a child learns to stand up or walk or run etc etc he get badly hurt. It is all part and parcel of a God set process. All this may be compensated in some way by God in this life or in hereafter or in both. This is why people do things in order to save themselves from painful suffering or to gain some kind of reward in some way. This is why we need to look at different good and bad things that happen to us as a whole. If we do not then nothing makes sense at all. Just because mankind suffer in this life does not necessarily mean God is someone bad or evil. In my view human suffering is justifiable in the sense that people are going to be compensated for whatever they suffer in this life or in hereafter or in both.

If anyone has any better explanation then I am all for it but that is how it makes sense to me.

regards and all the best.

[manfred]

It seems you are changing your line somewhat... earlier "everything" (i.e. each individual thing) was divinely planned with its own purpose. Now, it seems, you see that this will lead to all kinds of strange notions, you are taking a step back.

Now you suggest a slightly more tenable idea, but there is still a problem... if all in planned in advance, in every detail, then why did Allah plan Auschwitz? If all is pre-determined, then we cannot decide anything for ourselves, so we cannot be responsible for anything either....

[Mughal]

Even today people have copies of the quran which still contain errors because no one in the area bothered to correct them.

One thing I like to know. "correct errors in Quran". How these errors came about?. Correcting errors against what?. Which version is the "correct" version.?

Otherwise, it seems tacitly you DO admit that, throughout years following Muhammad's death, various Muslim cleric DID take liberty to edit the Quran and insert their own interpretation - much like one of Muhammad own scribes, Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad Bin Sarh did - putting his own words when Muhammad was dictating his revelations.

Therefore, following same logic which you aptly promote - there is no way possible that, Quran of today contain exact same words as those uttered by Muhammad. Himself an illiterate, Muhammad could not verify indeed his exact words were written down by his scribes - yet memorized by other illiterate crowds. Worse yet, 77600 word were passed one word-for-word by same illiterate believers to next generation.

Dear hombre, messages of God are always in human languages so when random or non-deliberate errors occur in them we can know them in various ways and we can also repair or correct them by learning how to do so.

Editing is something very different from non-deliberate errors. The quran has never been edited purposefully ever as explained in the links I have provided. Yes there are thousands of quranic copies which contain all sorts of errors but none of the errors are purposeful editing errors. This is why there are no different versions of the quran. Different versions means totally different copies with totally different information like four gospels in the new testament. Editing means omitting some information and adding some information in order to give the original book a totally new direction that was never meant by its original author. This has never been the case with the quranic text ever. This is why we have the very same book that was left behind by the messenger of God himself. This is how things make sense to me as regard the quran and deen of islam. I see nothing at all wrong with my belief in existence of God or his revelation. All I can wish for is God bless all of us with more and more knowledge so that we all could understand his message better and better so that we may try our best to end up with life truly worth living.

regards and all the best.

[manfred]

OK, Mughal, reality check....

if, as you say, the Qur'an has errors, why would it be relevant to anyone today, as a binding guide to live one's life? Why even bother with it? What does it offer we cannot find elsewhere or work out ourselves?

[sum]

Hello Mughal

Here are Hadith Sahih Muslim (19:4294) and Koran 9:29

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Koran 9:29 Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The hadith supports and does not contradict the Koran. Do you support the literal meaning of the above?

sum

[Fernando]

I'm sorry Mughal, that I missed your reply further up the page - I seem to have overlooked this thread for a few days. I'm sure people might well have hidden their copies of the Koran, as you say, to stop them being burnt. I'm not so sure, though that fading of ink might introduce errors separate from making words illegible - it's an interesting idea, though.
Anyway, I'm glad that you agree that the Koran never was unchangeable. Thankyou.

[Mughal]

Dear friends, we need to realise the fact that God only works cannot have any errors in them in context of their purposes but human only works are not necessarily error free. In case of revealed messages of God we have both working together so God part has no possibility of errors but man part has. Since ordinary people make copies of messages of God so they at times end up making mistakes. Since we cannot eliminate error correction ability of human beings either so we can accept that it is possible for human beings to make and correct errors. This is why overall we do not end up losing a message of God that is supposed to remain in the world for guidance of mankind for a set duration.

regards and all the best

[manfred]

we need to realise the fact that God only works cannot have any errors in them

Fine, so no error in works of God.

Qur'an: tons of error.

Your conclusion?

[Mughal]

I'm sorry Mughal, that I missed your reply further up the page - I seem to have overlooked this thread for a few days. I'm sure people might well have hidden their copies of the Koran, as you say, to stop them being burnt. I'm not so sure, though that fading of ink might introduce errors separate from making words illegible - it's an interesting idea, though.
Anyway, I'm glad that you agree that the Koran never was unchangeable. Thankyou.

Dear Fernando, anyone can make any kind of changes to any copy of the quran one has in one's possession or control. The point is elimination of actual message of God from this world by mankind. That they can never do because no one among mankind has the ability to do so. For sake of argument if all nonmuslims started printing quranic copies with all kinds of errors from now on muslims will still have original text of the quran with them. This is why the text of the quran will remain unchanged always as it has been.

regards and all the best.

[Mughal]

we need to realise the fact that God only works cannot have any errors in them

Fine, so no error in works of God.

Qur'an: tons of error.

Your conclusion?

Dear manfred, known or understood errors are correctable at any time by anyone who understands them so they are not the kind of errors which could invalidate the quran. Suppose you do a calculation and make an error, it is up to you to correct it or leave it as it is if you think it does not matter for you because you are already aware of it. However, if someone else has any problem with your error he can correct it or leave it as it is after becoming aware of it. So errors and corrections do not matter if overall thing is still intact and valid as it is supposed to.

regards and all the best.

[manfred]

The errors in the Qur'an are all due to non-Muslims? No offence, but if that is your contention then I am seriously thinking you need to consult a psychiatrist...

But if you say there are are errors in the Qur'an, and therefore you should correct them, are you more intelligent or better educated than Allah? And to your contention that not all errors invalidate the Qur'an, where did you get that idea? If an all-knowing deity is supposed to be the author of this text, you do not expect ANY kind of error in it. In reality we have historical errors, factual errors, moral errors, and internal contradictions, so we have errors of every kind possible in the text, and yet you say they don;t matter?

Here is the straight forward logical conclusion: once you realise there are errors in the Qur'an, you should dismiss the claim of divine authorship, and if you feel you need guidance, look elsewhere. Hint: your are your own best guide, if you manage to be honest with yourself. There are many religious teachers. Have a look at what they say. Are any of their words ringing bells with you?

If the Qur'an needs a mammoth task on your side to be half-way reasonable, and much needs to be edited out or re-written, don't waste any more time on it than you already have. Life is too short for wasting it on the ramblings of 7th century Arab warlord.

The Qur'an you have produced is not the one Mohammed taught, so it will not be accepted by Muslims, and the non-Muslims, to be honest, prefer to get their guidance from other sources.

I know this all sounds harsh, but I am trying very hard to help you.

[Fernando]

So one "correct" Koran might exist, among many incorrect ones. So somebody could take the correct Koran and a pen and put all the others right.
But how does he know which is the correct one?

[Mughal]

Mughal, Mughal....

so the creator deliberately created cancer, malaria, blind and mentally handicapped babies....?

Really?

Dear manfred, you need to start thinking a bit to understand what I am trying to explain. You all of a sudden jump to God alone doing this and that without realising all things play their parts along with God and human beings.

As I explained already it is plan and purpose of God that is ultimate but to get from a to b everything has a part to play because God put everything to work for that end. This is why human beings are also put to struggle to accomplish their part. The problem is God created human beings without knowing anything at all. The reason is because God wanted to keep his interference with human beings to a bear minimum. If he did not then people could not appreciate God by their own independent thoughts and actions.

God created this world to be appreciated by an intelligent creature ie human being. So he put everything to work towards that end and along the way things create problems for each other due to their lack of knowledge. This causes all kinds of suffering for mankind but then God will please them in time to come for their suffering provided they had a genuine reason to think and do what they thought and did. It is due to this people get all kinds of illnesses because they do not know how this world works and how they ought to live in it to stay safe and healthy and happy. All because the message God has sent for them to help them live properly they are not bothered with understanding it properly and following it faithfully. The result is, terrible suffering which could have been avoided to a large extent though not completely.

regards and all the best.

[Mughal]

OK, Mughal, reality check....

if, as you say, the Qur'an has errors, why would it be relevant to anyone today, as a binding guide to live one's life? Why even bother with it? What does it offer we cannot find elsewhere or work out ourselves?

Dear manfred, the quran offers human beings a solid starting foundation. How? It is because zero cannot equal one nor one can equal zero. If we assume there was absolutely nothing there to begin with then nothing at all can come out of absolute nothing. So the question arises where have we come from? We know for sure, we did and could not have created ourselves. If someone or something did create us then acceptance of existence of that being becomes absolutely necessary. Whatever created us has to be ever present because if it too was like ourselves absent then became present it could not have given us starting foundation.

Whatever created us has to be intelligent ie it has to have qualities or attributes or properties or characteristics of a God. Not only that it has to have purpose and plan for doing what it did. This is why concept of revelation of God is also of vital importance. When we bring in concept of revelation of God then question arises how do we make sense of message of God? If we do not discover the way to make proper sense of message of God then we can never understand it. If we do not understand it as it ought to be understood then we cannot act upon it faithfully and that is why we are fighting with each other. We attribute all kinds of nonsense to message of God thinking that is what it means whereas we have not idea how to make proper sense of message of God.

When God and human beings work together, God part is fine but human part is problematic and that is why we end up with human errors even in the text of the quran. However people are good at making mistakes but they are not bad in correcting them as well. This means people need to devise a methods whereby they could correct error found in the copies of the quran. This requires highly knowledgeable, motivated and dedicated team of people which could carry out this task. While such a team is not available individuals will have to rely upon themselves and do as much as they can. If no one will do this then it is humanity which will stand to lose for a yet long time not God. Throwing away the baby with the tub is not the right way to go about this issue. It is because if we will get rid of God and his message then there is no future for humanity at all because time comes when hopelessness over takes our human world and only thought about God and his message keeps us sane. All our ways of entertaining ourselves fail us. Many try to escape by suicide, many by drugs and many by their misbehaviour by hands of each other. So our world minus God and his revelation will only get worse not better as we can see it before our eyes due to having wrong concepts about God and his revelation and its understanding.

regards and all the best.

[sum]

Hello Mughal

After your apostasy what made you decide that Islam was the "truth" after all? Did you start going back to the mosque and have your original programming reinforced and reinstated?

This is what you wrote in FFI a few years ago when you became an apostate -

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... highlight= below

Mughal
You wrote and I quote:
"Will any ex-muslim please explain to me how the fear of hell is so deeply instilled into a muslim`s mind that it prevents any doubts about Islam from surfacing?"

I have written about it in depth in my articles as to how people born in muslim household are indoctrinated and how they may be unwound or de-indoctrinated.

Islam in not a new thing rather it has been there long before we were born and muslim communities by now have become very much set in their ways.

Islam is talked about on daily basis and many aspects are part of normal muslim conduct.

Islamic teachings and the way of life is designed for indoctrination and reinforcement. Mannerism and rituals are heavily observed. Watch news on muslim radio or tv or other nedia etc eg whatever a muslim does must start with the formula, in the name of Allah the most beneficent and the most merciful. This is the case even with muslim politicians who claim to be secularists and democrats and even in non-muslim countries.

As soon as a baby is born in a muslim household in a muslim country, the imaam is called by the parents to say the ADHAAN (=call for prayer) in the right ear of the new born baby and the AQAAMAT (= announcement that congregation is about to stand up for the prayer) in the left ear.

As soon as a child is able to speak, the formulas that there is no god but allah and muhammad is his messenger and in the name of allah the most beneficent and the most merciful are taught and the child is taught what is Islamically right and wrong. The child is taught what Allah will do if the child does good or bad. The child is taught that it is disrespectful to question religion or religious authorities or to be disobedient to them because so it is written in the quran and the hadith. The child is told what the quran and the hadith is.

Little daily things work as reminders for the child eg saying salaam for greeting people when one meets others and the child is criticised if s/he does not do so.

Thus the child is educated bit by bit about Islam and if any question about anything is asked by a child it is answered the Islamic way. For example, a child asks, who made the word? The answer, Allah. How did he make it? The story of origin of the world is told as is found in the Islamic books with ending Allah knows best.

Only when child go to school for professional education, they learn maths and sciences etc etc but as permitted Islamically. If any teacher or pupil goes beyond what is allowed, they get in trouble. You may remember the case of Dr Younus of Pakistan and various others from around the world.

The critical ability of the individual is guided along rather than being allowed to question things freely. That is because all subjects taught in the schools within muslim countries are under pinned by Islamic teachings and they are set within Islamic limits.

After a person has been through the education system in the muslim countries, it is very difficult to unteach the person what the person has already learned as knowledge and practice. De-indoctrination has to be a forced process if there is any hope of mass de-indoctrination.

For example, for an ex-muslim, it will be very difficult if not impossible to unlearn the behaviour and mannerism etc learned since childhood. To get rid of it one has to be fully conscious at all times and very much self critical which is very difficult indeed.

Another important point to remember would be that once a child is raised in a particular way, the child feel his/her duty to defend it as a matter of honour and self worth ie the loss of self identity or sense of belonging is not acceptable to a person thus indoctrination acts as a virus that reproduces and replicates itself all by itself.

I am very short on time therefore am unable to go into nitty gritty of things but hope others will help build up the picture for you.

Mughal

I am puzzled by your stubborn refusal to see and accept reason regarding the obvious failings and inaccuracies in the Koran. I am also disappointed in your refusal to tell me whether Muhammad`s words and deeds were in full accordance with the Koran and whether Muhammad really was the perfect example for muslims to emulate.

Can you clear the air for me?

sum

[manfred]

Hi again, what took you so long?

Dear manfred, the quran offers human beings a solid starting foundation. How? It is because zero cannot equal one nor one can equal zero.

This is very much like Mohammed's "proofs". You make an obvious statement from which you conclude something entirely unrelated. How does 0<>1 suggest anything at all about the Qur'an, much less it being a "solid starting foundation"?

As something being some sort "solid" guide in life, I would evaluate that by looking at what the Qur'an does to Muslims. Islam is intolerant, misogynistic, homophobic, violent and totalitarian. That is what the guidance amounts to, and you can see that when you speak to pretty much any Muslim.

"solid"?

You mention creation, but Islam is not the only religion teaching creation. To evaluate a religion you need to look at what makes it unique.

General comments about creation do not make some issues go away? Where does evil come from? Why is there suffering? Islam has some very odd answers to this.

[Fernando]

. The problem is God created human beings without knowing anything at all.

He/she/it seems to have known quite a bit - like how to be a nasty, vindictive, torturing entity.