What would Moses do about Mohammed?

[manfred]

And the Jews say that Moses is the only teacher, and denied that he was a prophet and also denies Jesus is the Messiah.

Judaism does not teach that Moses is the "only teacher", and the concept of a "prophet" in Judaism is very different from that in Islam. While some Rabbinic texts do in fact also call Moses a prophet, it is in an analogue sense; the prophets of Judaism, strictly, are those whose writings we have in the bible.

As of Jesus being the Messiah, yes, Jews do not believe that, nor do Muslims, they do not even know what the word means.

You do not have solid proof that Moses and Jesus once said that religion taught by them is complete. If not, please provide evidence verse of the Torah and the Bible that Moses and Jesus, saying their religion is perfect and complete.

Honestly SAM, do you think we are all stupid here? Verses are "proof"?
I do not have proof you have 10 fingers, does that prove you have 12?

In Christianity, Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega", and the Christianity does not accept "improvements" after God himself reveal his purpose in Jesus. There cannot be any further "prophets" after God himself walked among men. But that is also not the topic.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Rev 22:13

Judaism to not make a claim to be "perfect", and it still expects a Messiah. However, they are very clear what this Messiah should be and they are also certain it has nothing whatever to do with the murderous paedophile from Arabia.

SAM, the burden of proof is on you: you are the one who claims that Mohammed "completes" the teachings of Moses. So give an example.

[SAM]

Not a single prophet has ever said or claimed that the religion taught by them is complete and perfect, except Muhammad.

Christian worked tirelessly to prove Christianity is true based on historical rather than the true teachings of Jesus the son of Mary.

In the Quran says, "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere." But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers.

[manfred]

Not a single prophet has ever said or claimed that the religion taught by them is complete and perfect, except Muhammad.

And he was obviously a big fat liar. You are a witness to that, as you cannot show me a single thing Mohammed "perfected".

Christian worked tirelessly to prove Christianity is true based on historical rather than the true teachings of Jesus the son of Mary.

Christian theology knows about the difference between a belief and and empirical fact. No Christian offers "proof", all offer "evidence". And Christianity is entirely irrelevant to this topic, you only bring it up to distract from your failure.

In the Quran says, "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Yes it does. But SAM will not produce any proof that Mohammed perfected anything.

Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere."

So, SAM, why are you still alive? Do you not believe your own quote? Why are you not running along to Raffles Hotel and blow yourself up? You still loose the argument, but it may make you feel better, for a short time. But as a special favour to me, if you decide to kill yourself, please do not take others with you.

So, will you now produce the evidence to show how Mohammed perfected the teachings of Moses., or not?

[Fernando]

You do not have solid proof that Moses and Jesus once said that religion taught by them is complete. If not, please provide evidence verse of the Torah and the Bible that Moses and Jesus, saying their religion is perfect and complete.

Oh dear SAM, you get worse. Not only do you indulge in circular reasoning regarding the Koran's claims, now you are demanding people use the same false logic to defend their own religions.

[manfred]

Yes Fernando that bit did make me laugh too. At the end of the day what he has demonstrated is that to him Islam is "perfect" and "complete" because that is what he got drummed into his head since he was a baby. What Mohammed allegedly did to "perfect" a religion (if that is even possible) is not part of the Islamic mantra, so he cannot explain it at all.

He also cannot see how Mohammed simply remodelled various biblical characters as inferior images of himself, so that he can claim to be the most important among them. They only serve that purpose, and that is why Islam does not even care to establish what the teachings of their so called "prophets" were.

He also misses another big logical issue: there is a huge leap from saying something may be imperfect to asserting Mohammed of all people perfected it. And he cannot even give one tiny small example of anything that Mohammed introduced to even slightly "improve" the teachings of Moses. So he tries to hide that huge gulf of missing evidence by going on about other religions.

[Hombre]

As usual, you always avoiding to give a simple answer when asked..

What is the legacy or a message that Abraham left to his sons, Ismael and Isaac, as well as his grandson, Jacob.

whatever Abraham left to his sons - he never ever gave any hint, innuendo or mention of "Muhammad".

As manfred pointed out many time. By repeating passages from the Hebrew Bible about Abraham - that does not render Muhammad or anyone else - any more then cleaver con or poor plagiarizer. The very reason he was working to wipe any trace of Judaism, was for sole reason - leave no witnesses behind to attest Muhammad as a con man, much like one of his scribes found out (Abdulla bin sa'ad ibn sarh)

[manfred]

Yes, hombre, that was why he ordered all of the Arabian peninsula to be cleared of Jews, and why he killed a great many Jewish people in his "wars", such as the quraiza in Medina. He was afraid of them. Any average Jew, even without much education, would recognise Mohammed's plagiarism, would point it out, would laugh at the changes and errors in Mohammed's accounts, and certainly would know the difference between the Torah and the Talmud, which Mohammed clearly did not.

The Jews were in Mohammed's time the only people who could make everybody see that he was the emperor without any clothes, the conman he really was, and they had no compunction to be quiet, at all. Their laughter could bring down the whole house of cards.

That is why they became the "apes and pigs" in the Qur'an. Anything to keep the Muslims away from the Jews. If they ever were to really listen to even one of them, Islam would have been finished.

Fear and aggression are almost always linked. Mohammed feared the Jews so much that he wished them all either dead or at least gone far away.

Mohammed did not foresee that his religion would spread quite so quick and so far, so despite of his best efforts he could not keep his Muslims separate from the Jews forever. But he had poisoned the Muslim mind against the Jews so thoroughly that to this day no Muslim is ever really able to pay attention to a Jew, however intelligent and balanced his view may be. They will always dismiss all things said by a Jew purely because he is Jewish.

[SAM]

I demand an answer

Please provide solid proof that Moses and Jesus once said that religion taught by them is complete. If not, please provide evidence verse of the Torah and the Bible that Moses and Jesus, saying their religion is perfect and complete.

This verse in the Quran Allah challenged the Jews,

"Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere." But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers.

In Islam, Muslims have knowledge of how to do it.

[SAM]

As usual, you always avoiding to give a simple answer when asked..

What is the legacy or a message that Abraham left to his sons, Ismael and Isaac, as well as his grandson, Jacob.

whatever Abraham left to his sons - he never ever gave any hint, innuendo or mention of "Muhammad".

As manfred pointed out many time. By repeating passages from the Hebrew Bible about Abraham - that does not render Muhammad or anyone else - any more then cleaver con or poor plagiarizer. The very reason he was working to wipe any trace of Judaism, was for sole reason - leave no witnesses behind to attest Muhammad as a con man, much like one of his scribes found out (Abdulla bin sa'ad ibn sarh)

In the Quran says,

And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Moses and David and his son Solomon, never said that their religion is perfect and complete except Muhammad. .

[Hombre]

I demand an answer

Please provide solid proof that Moses and Jesus once said that religion taught by them is complete. If not, please provide evidence verse of the Torah and the Bible that Moses and Jesus, saying their religion is perfect and complete.

This verse in the Quran Allah challenged the Jews,

"Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere." But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers.

In Islam, Muslims have knowledge of how to do it.

Are you majnoon or what?.
As far as I know, neither Moses nor Jesus ever said Judaism was "perfect religion". Nor any level headed Christian will tell you Jesus or New Testament anywhere near perfect.
In fact, their central message was, follow the 10 commandment, be honest to one another.

The Hebrew Bible is not only a book of guidance, it is also describes history of events which shape our lives to this day. It talks about human fallibility, and limitation of human capacity in front of the creator.

Only place the phrase "perfect religion" or "perfect man" was brought up, it was for Muhammad & Islam. - because Muhammad demanded it - Nowhere else - period.

For some reason, between the line I read that, as self professed "devout Muslim" you are having a 2nd thought about calling Muhammad or Quran "perfect man" or "perfect book". Now you are trying to "spread" your guilt onto Judea & Christianity - "you do it too".

[SAM]

I demand an answer

Please provide solid proof that Moses and Jesus once said that religion taught by them is complete. If not, please provide evidence verse of the Torah and the Bible that Moses and Jesus, saying their religion is perfect and complete.

This verse in the Quran Allah challenged the Jews,

"Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere." But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers.

In Islam, Muslims have knowledge of how to do it.

Are you majnoon or what?.
As far as I know, neither Moses nor Jesus ever said Judaism was "perfect religion". Nor any level headed Christian will tell you Jesus or New Testament anywhere near perfect.

Finally, our Jewish friend, Hombre recognizes Judaism and Christianity both totally imperfect and incomplete ..

May Yahweh curse you for insulting Him...

[Hombre]

Moses and David and his son Solomon, never said that their religion is perfect and complete except Muhammad. .

Only fanatic lunatics will copy passages from other books - adapt their religious leaders (prophets) as his - then declare their preached wrong. Accept prophets, and reject their preachings.

Hebrew bible was compiled over centuries, during which each learned scholar or prophet had recorded events as they happened in front of their eyes. They also added their wisdom to what it is to day - generation after generation, until 70 ACE with the destruction of Jerusalem and expulsion of Jews from their county.

That wisdom was continued from 4th - 6th centuries ACE in form of "Talmud". Both books contain volume and volume of human knowledge & wisdom.

The entire Quran was formed & its only source was by only ONE MAN whom, according to his own admission, he was illiterate (can't read nor write), and over period of only 23 years. a period smaller then this -------> .

Think of it SAM. How much wisdom can an illiterate man can generate over 23 years. NOT MUCH if any. This very fact should open your eyes and realize why 90% of Quran contain same stories told in Hebrew bible on events which happened 1000 years earlier. Why he had to kill or expel any Jew - thus prevent Muslim from learning the truth about him & his Quran.

It is time for you to stop lying to yourself - believing Muhammad was perfect man, and accept the fact he suffered from acute case of schizophrenia & epilepsy. As an intelligent and well educated man, It is time for you to use modern tool to see who really Muhammad was - not what you think.

[manfred]

SAM, SAM, whatever have you been smoking? Islam is "perfect" because Mohammed says so? Really? So what MAKES Islam "perfect", what did Mohammed bring to perfect the teachings of Moses?

I have asked you dozens of times, and you simply cannot answer.

An aside on Christianity...

Also you seem to never really have thought Christian teachings through. "Christmas" is not merely a celebration of a "birthday" it is the commemoration of the "incarnation", something that is central to Christianity but absent in Islam.

Suppose for a moment that GOD HIMSELF delivered his own message in PERSON. How could that possibly be "improved" or "perfected"? To a Christian, the revelation of God, his message and his intent towards humankind, is complete with the Messiah, there simply is no more to reveal.

There is also nothing to add or "improve", as it would "correcting God". What is NOT complete, though, is our understanding of the message and how to implement it and make it meaningful in an ever-changing world.

This would be the Christian position, it always has been, and this is why Islam and Mohammed would be entirely rejected.

Now, again, SAM, focus on the question and at least try an answer ow say you don't know, both is fine. You say that Islam perfected the teachings of Moses. Give an example of just one thing he perfected.

Stick to that, instead of trying diversions.

[SAM]

Yahweh and God the Father does not say that Judaism and Christianity are accepted and blessed by Him.

Moses and Jesus did not say that Judaism and Christianity are perfect and complete.

Moses never mentioned that he taught Judaism and Jesus never said he was teaching Christianity.

[manfred]

Yahweh and God the Father does not say that Judaism and Christianity are accepted and blessed by Him.

Moses and Jesus did not say that Judaism and Christianity are perfect and complete.

Moses never mentioned that he taught Judaism and Jesus never said he was teaching Christianity.

SAM, what on earth are you going on about?

The terms "Judaism" and "Christianity" are LATER words to describe respective religions and to distinguish them from others. To expect Moses to call his religion "Judaism" would an anachronism, similar to Moses mentioning the gospels or meeting Samaritans, something quite mad, and only found in the Qur'an. Moses did not "start" Judaism, but he had a profound influence on it, as did other people in history. And the word "Judaism" to describe the religion of the Jews is fairly modern.

The same applies to the term "Christianity". That is a word Jesus would not have used anyway, because it is a Latin transliteration of a Greek word, which in turn refers to the belief that the "anointed one" has already y arrived. ("Christos" - annointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah") It was the ROMANS who first used the word "Christians" to describe what they saw as yet another little cult.


So, SAM, let's try a little logic here:

Because Moses did not say "Right, this is Judaism lesson 1..." he did not actually teach Judaism? What did he teach then, cake-making?

Because Moses did not say " Listen, all I have said is absolutely perfect!" this means there is something wrong with it? And Suppose he had said that, does that make it true?

Suppose I provide you with a proof of Pythagoras' Theorem. Unless I write at the bottom "this is perfect" the proof is invalid? And If I write it, and it has a mistake in it, is it still perfect because it says so at the bottom?

Can you really not see how silly it is to draw conclusions from things people have NOT said? SAM never said he would refuse to wear dresses and high heel shoes. Conclusion: SAM is a transvestite. Now, can you see, this is not a valid argument?


And even if the religion of Moses was "imperfect" as you claim, then how would a non-Jew "perfect" it? And what exactly did Mohammed do to perfect it?

[Hombre]

SAM SAMI,
our polemics with you is not about "religion" per say, or the concept of perfect vs. imperfect. It is rather about our differing mind-set to which we non-Muslims have with you.

You, as a devout Muslim (if that is true), you have been indoctrinated and led to believe humans (at least one man) can be perfect, therefor, whatever they say - is also true, and perfect. That obviously leads to cult personality - Muhammad being a cult leader.

Jews & Christians are taught in human fallibility, and no human is perfect. Hebrew Bible & New testament are dynamic documents - while their core values (10 commandments, etc) are valid - other parts contain not only basic guidance of human behaviour & morals - also act as documents describing historical events which shape our life to this day.

Quran contains the words of only one man, whom - modern psychological theory confirm, he was mentally ill. His main & only objective was control the mind & body of other people and bend them to his will.

The reason he included biblical stories in his "revelation" was pure & simple - falsely render himself as one with ancient roots to align himself as Abraham, Moses & Jesus.

Just ask yourself. Why Muhammad needed to use extreme violence to eliminate anyone who questioned him? Did any other past prophets (Abraham, Moses) or Jesus (or Buddha) used violence to convince others to believe them - no they did not - nor needed to.

True leaders lead others through sheer personality & impeccable integrity. Only false & barbaric ones do so through violence, as Muhammad did.

[Fernando]

SAM, SAM, whatever you do, don't pick up your musket - you're likely to shoot yourself in the foot - or the back of your head. You are progressing from circular logic to circular logic squared!
What you are saying is this:
I have a book that says it is perfect and that your books are imperfect.
Your books don't say they are perfect.
Therefore you can't prove that your books are perfect.
Therefore my book is right.