some lesser known teachings of Islam...

[manfred]

And of course, so you are SAM. I trying to get you to use your critical thinking faculties, but sadly, it seems, I am failing. Again.

Well, take care SAM, I have to go now, I have to give a lecture at 9 am. But let's chat more later.
Best wishes

[frankie]

I've said before, I do not ignore the hadith, I said I just rejected the stories thats does not make sense (for me), to become a mukmin required to believe only 6 pillars of Islam faith, no need to believe Aisha was married at 9 years old to become a mukmin (note : mukmin not muslim)

I think this case the same as Christian and bible, every Christian when asked if he believed the earth was flat (unless he the flat-earther) will certainly reject it. but we found at the Bible that the earth is flat, so I'm asking if by refusing the flat earth theory than you do not become a Christian ? Jesus said eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have (not about the flat earth)

abinaya:

You cannot reject the sixth pillar of your faith, which tells you to obey Mohammed in everything he did, you find what Mohammed did in the sahih hadiths, therefore you cannot reject any of the sahih hadiths just because they do not make any sense to you, they are part and parcel of your faith.

By rejecting any of the sahih hadiths you are rejecting Mohammed as your prophet, which turns you into a murtard.

Do you accept this as true?

[abinaya]

@frank
rejecting sahih hadiths and rejecting Mohammed as a prophet are two different things

[Fernando]

You’re entitled to your opinion.

As you are entitled to yours, SAM, but that's no sort of an answer when we're here to compare and contrast opinions and the facts or lack of facts on which they're based.
As for proving negatives, can you prove that there is not a Flying Spaghetti Monster (ramen), a teapot in orbit beyond Mars, or an invisible pink unicorn?
Don't bother to reply, let abinaya have some space.

[manfred]

@frank
rejecting sahih hadiths and rejecting Mohammed as a prophet are two different things

Sure not quite the same. But somehow related....

We only really know about Mohammed from old texts and traditions, such as the hadith. If Mohammed were a picture, each time you decide to reject a hadith, it is like rubbing out a little piece of of the picture. You eventually end up with a picture you like, which suits you, which is what you always thought. But is that the Mohammed how he really was?

[frankie]

@frank
rejecting sahih hadiths and rejecting Mohammed as a prophet are two different things

Not according to your own scriptures they are not, you must accept both, as the Sahih hadiths show you why Mohammed was a prophet of Islam, and how Muslims should follow his example to be in obedience with Allah's laws, which Mohammed was.

It tells you this in the sixth pillar of your faith, which you have confirmed you subscribe to.

Are you now rejecting this sixth pillar of your faith, just to strengthen your argument?

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/s ... rsiman.htm


"Testimony That Muhammed (saws) Is Allah's Messenger

And I bear witness that Muhammad is Allah's slave and messenger, may Allah's prayers be upon him and upon his people (Aal) and his companions and Allah's greetings (or peace) in abundance...

Meaning: I accept and believe in an absolute fashion that Muhammad is the slave of Allah and His messenger to all peoples of both men and jinn. He came as a bringer of glad tidings and a warner, a caller to Allah with His leave and a bright light of guidance. Thus, it is obligatory to believe him in each and every issue about which he informed us, whether past, present or future and to obey him in each and every order and forbiddance and to follow the law which he brought (Shari'ah) and his path (Sunnah).

The testimony to Muhammad's (saws) status of slave of Allah and messenger goes hand in hand with the testimony as to the oneness of Allah, one is of no use without the other. In so bearing witness, a believer acknowledges the perfect servitude of Muhammad (saws) to Allah Most High and the completeness and perfection of his message. In so doing, we acknowledge the complete example in the person of the Prophet (saws) and that his person, life and example far exceed every other created being in every aspect including the law, his devotion to Allah, his character, etc.

[There is for you in Allah's Messenger a good example for whoever hopes for Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.] Al-Ahzab 21

Ibn Al-Qayyim said: Just as Muhammad (saws) was sent with the message intended for every responsible being in Allah's creation, likewise, his message was general and inclusive of all issues of life and religion both general principles and details. Just as no one is outside the scope of his message, likewise no ruling or judgement of which the nation has a need is outside the scope of his message or not explained fully by his message. Ibn Taimia said: The entire Din falls under the two testimonies since their meaning is that we worship none but Allah and that we obey his Messenger (saws). The entire religion of Islam consists of this: worship of Allah by obedience to His messenger. Every issue which is required or loved by Allah falls under obeying Allah and His messenger (saws)."

[frankie]

Seems the truth of their faith has frightened the Muslims away, strange when one of their own Islamic maxims is "truth stands clear from error"

Anyone would have thought that the Muslims would not hesitate to embrace the truth, seemingly not.

[Fernando]

Perhaps, frankie, what is frightening them is the injunction that Muslims should not inquire into things that might upset them. (I was going to cite the source, but Google is unhelpful. I'm sure others have cited it previously.)

[ISLAM_rules]

abinaya, do not listen to the kafirun, but invited them for Islam only.

[iffo]

i think all thats part of scholar

unfortunately your scholars don't agree on one thing. So which scholar will you believe. Whole thing is totally messed up

[frankie]

abinaya, do not listen to the kafirun, but invited them for Islam only.

islam rules,

Invite people to a provable fraud, whose god is a previously known pagan entity, and prophet whose only interest was to fight,kill,plunder and rape his way through the Arabian peninsular in order to please his false god Allah.

The Quran proves itself to be a fake by the many errors held within its pages, three of which are:

Claiming the earth is flat,88.20

Claiming the Jews worship an eminent Jewish scribe Ezra, as God 9.30

Claiming sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs 86.6-7

What you should be saying is, do not listen to those who put their trust in this provable fake, as to do so puts you as a "laughing stock" of the world.

[ISLAM_rules]

Because of liar like you, we oder that Chirstian kill, or pay jiziah.

[frankie]

Because of liar like you, we oder that Chirstian kill, or pay jiziah.

islam rules:

I am more than happy to be called a liar, because I am quoting from a book of lies.

But tell me,the previous scriptures, which Islam claims to share the same god with,and holds as "truth, guidance and light" say I am still loved by the Bible God, even though I may not believe in this God.

But the Quran says because I am an "unbeliever "I am NOT loved, and I must be killed (and or) pay extortion money, just because I do not accept its god as the only god.

Seems the god who you put your trust in can change his mind, which makes him a god of contradictions, and is therefore untrustworthy to put the salvation of your soul in.

[abinaya]

Quran and the prophet himself said that faith stands only with 6 pillars of faith ( the Babies cry at birth because Satan touches them not included). its mean Prophet just gave me a choice to choose, why even infidels did not give me a choice?

[frankie]

Quran and the prophet himself said that faith stands only with 6 pillars of faith ( the Babies cry at birth because Satan touches them not included). its mean Prophet just gave me a choice to choose, why even infidels did not give me a choice?

to become a mukmin required to believe only 6 pillars of Islam faith,

This forms part of your sixth pillar of faith.

“The testimony to Muhammad's (saws) status of slave of Allah and messenger goes hand in hand with the testimony as to the oneness of Allah, one is of no use without the other. In so bearing witness, a believer acknowledges the perfect servitude of Muhammad (saws) to Allah Most High and the completeness and perfection of his message. In so doing, we acknowledge the complete example in the person of the Prophet (saws) and that his person, life and example far exceed every other created being in every aspect including the law, his devotion to Allah, his character, etc.”


You must accept all that Mohammed did is held as exemplary to you for all time, despite rejecting the parts which don’t make any sense to you, your prophet is no less a prophet just because of your lack of understanding, all of which does include his “marriage “to a child of nine, which in itself is highly disturbing.

By claiming:
“rejecting sahih hadiths and rejecting Mohammed as a prophet are two different things”

you are not being consistant,you cannot reject anything Mohammed did as they form the sixth pillar of your faith, which tells you must accept all Mohammed’s actions, because he is the one man who obeyed Allah enough to be designated your role model in all aspects of your faith, including “marrying” children.

Your inconsistency belies either an ignorance of your faith, or an attempt to deceive those who you deem ignorant of it.

[manfred]

Quran and the prophet himself said that faith stands only with 6 pillars of faith ( the Babies cry at birth because Satan touches them not included). its mean Prophet just gave me a choice to choose, why even infidels did not give me a choice?

Hi again,

and first of all, whatever you want to believe is your choice, and I certainly would not tell you you do not have such a choice.

However, Mohammed did not always give people a choice to believe in him or not as you surely know. The choice Mohammed gave "infidels" and people of of the book are clearly mentioned in the Qur'an: convert or accept second class status and pay protection money. See 9:29

Now, I am curious, ... please show me, first or all, the section of text in the Qur'an about these six pillar you speak of... Also you say Mohammed mentioned them... please tell us how do you know this, and what is the source for this point.

Now, here is the problem: you say

Babies cry at birth because Satan touches them not included

There are two possibilities here...

a) this is entirely a false claim and Mohammed never said such a thing. Yet, scholars say this is a reliable source. If ONE such reliable source is should to be false, sure we can no longer rely on ANY or them. But many things you say are fundamental in Islam are based on the SAME sources. So things are falling apart....

b) the source is correct in claiming Mohammed said this. Then you need to ask if such a man is really a good person to trust to build your religious convictions on..

As I also said to SAM, if you merely ignore any source which says something about Mohammed you are not comfortable with, and only accept others which you like, then ask yourself, who is this Mohammed I believe in? Is it a real person or is it merely a work of fiction of my own making? Are you not then creating a Mohammed to your own desires? If the Mohammed you follow is in reality something you have yourself created, then what are you following?

And feel free to call me an "infidel" if you like, many Muslim have called me worse. And, far from limiting your choices, I want to give you more choices you currently have, the choices you get by thinking things through entirely by yourself.



On a lighter note... surely you don't go to McDonalds, do you? They use BACON.

[frankie]

islam rules:

You have not addresses any of the points raised previously; if you believe Islam to be the “truth “these claims should not be in your book of guidance, as they are completely wrong.

If your god cannot get the basics right about his own creation, what hope can you have in the rest of his book?


Claiming the earth is flat, 88.20

Claiming the Jews worship an eminent Jewish scribe Ezra, as God 9.30

Claiming sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs 86.6-7


And this:

the previous scriptures, which Islam claims to share the same god with, and holds as "truth, guidance and light" say I am still loved by the Bible God, even though I may not believe in this God.

But the Quran says because I am an "unbeliever "I am NOT loved, and I must be killed (and or) pay extortion money, just because I do not accept its god as the only god

.

The man you call a prophet, Jesus, submitted to, and obeyed the Bible God Yahweh, who tells us to have love for all mankind regardless of faith, by being obedient to His Commandments, but here we have Allah who totally contradicts Yahweh, when he tells Muslims he only has love for them, which in turn tells Muslims to have love only for fellow Muslims.

And so you are left with a very pertinent question, was Jesus lying when he preached unconditional love according to the Commandments of Yahweh, and if He was lying, why He is classified as a prophet of Islam?

[frankie]

islam rules:

You have not addresses any of the points raised previously; if you believe Islam to be the “truth “these claims should not be in your book of guidance, as they are completely wrong.

If your god cannot get the basics right about his own creation, what hope can you have in the rest of his book?


Claiming the earth is flat, 88.20

Claiming the Jews worship an eminent Jewish scribe Ezra, as God 9.30

Claiming sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs 86.6-7


And this:

the previous scriptures, which Islam claims to share the same god with, and holds as "truth, guidance and light" say I am still loved by the Bible God, even though I may not believe in this God.

But the Quran says because I am an "unbeliever "I am NOT loved, and I must be killed (and or) pay extortion money, just because I do not accept its god as the only god

.

The man you call a prophet, Jesus, submitted to, and obeyed the Bible God Yahweh, who tells us to have love for all mankind regardless of faith, by being obedient to His Commandments, but here we have Allah who totally contradicts Yahweh, when he tells Muslims he only has love for them, which in turn tells Muslims to have love only for fellow Muslims.

And so you are left with a very pertinent question, was Jesus lying when he preached unconditional love according to the Commandments of Yahweh, and if He was lying, why He is classified as a prophet of Islam?

islam rules:

I am still waiting for a response from you.

Allah is shown to be in error three times from the verses quoted, and one of your most respected prophets, Jesus, contradicts Allah throughout His ministry.

1. Why are there errors in a book said to come from an all knowing entity?

2. If unconditional love is preached as a bona fide religious instruction from Jesus, (who took His authority from the Ten Commandments,) was good enough for Jesus, why was it not good enough for Mohammed, who claimed to represent the same god?

[manfred]

Both in Sahih Bukhari and in Sahih Muslim you find this

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said:
That the Angel of Death came to Moses and said: Respond (to the call) of Allah (i. e. be prepared for death). Moses (peace be upon him) gave a blow at the eye of the Angel of Death and knocked it out. The Angel went back to Allah (the Exalted) and said: 'You sent me to your servant who does not like to die and he knocked out my eye.' Allah restored his eye to its proper place (and revived his eyesight) and said: Go to My servant and say: Do you want life? And in case you want life, keep your hand on the body of the ox and you would live such number of years as the (number of) hair your hand covers. He (Moses) said: What, then? He said: Then you would die, whereupon he (Moses) said: Then why not now? (He then prayed): Allah, cause me to die close to the sacred land.

And Muslim who would like to comment on this one?

[piscohot]

Birth marks are caused by the evil eye?
Narrated Um Salama: that the Prophet saw in her house a girl whose face had a black spot. He said. "She is under the effect of an evil eye; so treat her with a Ruqya." Bukhari - Volume 7, Book 71, Number 635.

LOL.

Other birthmarks are from the the devil.

Only Muhammad's birthmark is from Allah.

Hadith no: 16
Narrated / Authority of: Jabir bin Samura
"I saw the Seal of Prophethood of Rasullullah (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) between his two shoulders, which was like a red tumour (protruding flesh), the size of which was like that of a pigeon's egg".