frankie wrote:Mughal: The hadiths quotes are given the classification as Sahih by your own people, which means that Muslims can emulate their prophets example with confidence, knowing that their scholars have done the work before them, classifying the reports of Mohamed's ways and example as "sound" and reliable.
Dear frankie, it is not enough for a person to say some quote is authentic but that quote must prove consistency with message of God which is more authentic because it is and was widely known to people always in comparison to any other words by anyone else. Moreover texts need to be properly interpreted before they could be used for or against. Since people have not managed to interpret the text of the quran properly how can I accept they interpreted the texts in the hadees books? This is why till someone like me interprets them properly they are useless. Yet other problem in this regard is that there are claims that they have been manipulated as well by rulers of the time so that makes it absolutely necessary that they are properly scrutinised as well before they are taken as authentic messages to be acted upon.
frankie wrote:And so your answer does not make any sense to those who put their trust in these reports, and have done so for centuries.
There way of authenticating reports does not make sense to me. I am not rejecting their isnaad as far as they make sense anything beyond that is editing or pure falsehood which all people of knowledge should reject not just me.
frankie wrote:Do you think Allah would allow his scholars to be in error when reporting the ways and example of his "perfect example for mankind, "which in turn would make anyone who read these alleged erroneous reports and put them into action, disobey Allah?
I do not just think but accept that human error are possible even in the copies of text of the quran however such human errors are natural and do not cause any problems. The problems are caused by deliberate changes people make for misleading readers. Such error can be caught by scrutinising a text carefully. Messengers of Allah were such people whom Allah chose out of his knowledge because he knew they will be able to deliver his message as it ought to be delivered. This is why there are no problems with actual text of the quran as I already explained in detail in my other posts. The deliberate editing or additions or omissions in hadis reports can be caught easily because they will contradict framework of deen of islam as clearly explained in the text of the quran. This is why people need to stop believing every nonsense in the name of deen of islam and instead they need to start working on these texts as I have explained and things will soon become clear.
frankie wrote:If Mohammed is given to be mankind's role model for all time, then the sahih hadiths quoted show Mohammed to be a very poor role model, as his actions prove him to be a tyrant, which then follows, the god that gave him his instructions to act this way must be a tyrannical god.
As I explained to you earlier the quran does not make any man a standard to be followed independent of guidance of God in a matter one undertakes. On that basis all messengers of God and their faithful followers were and are an excellent example of following the guidance of God. In the quranic context righteous people are those who ensure delivery of God given rights to mankind by organising and regulating themselves into an ummah. In doing so people of God will have to take things of those who have wrongfully taken away things of those who had them rightfully. You can ask people nicely but if they do not comply then force has to be used appropriately to do the job. I explained that in detail in my posts already. After all why do we need standing armies and police if we just need to sit and let people think and do as they please in order to harm or destroy humanity? That in itself proves there is nothing wrong in use of force provided the end is ensuring well being of mankind. The quran does not tell us anywhere that anyone is a role model unless one follows the God given guidance. If there is any verse in the quran of this kind please share. The quran tells us Abraham is an example just like Muhammad using exactly the same words but then it also tells us Abraham was made an example only because he followed guidance of God. When Abraham asked God for his offspring to be made leaders also for guiding the ummah, God replied they cannot be leaders if they go off the right track. A clear proof that only those people can be people of God who follow his guidance.
As for God being a tyrant because Muhammad was, is not the right way to think because God is God and can never be a tyrant. If God cannot be a tyrant because he is a knowledge able wise being then how could any of his messengers be? This is the right way to think. Since muhammad is his messenger so he could not have done things people attribute to him out of their proper context. The real question is why did people misinterpret and misrepresent the quran and attribute falsehood to Muhammad? They must have had some advantage in doing so. I have explained how rulers, money lenders and mullahs are one and the same thing behind the curtains.
I have explained clearly in great detail why there has come about corruption in the world as well as how to end it. However till people become educated enough to understand what I have explained it is not possible to get rid of corruption from this world.
The main thing mankind need to become aware of is, only and only deen of islam can help mankind become corruption free. Unfortunately most people in the world are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained, unskilled for reasoning out things properly and the reason is because that is the way human beings are born but only some of them make effort to survive the rest simply are gotten rid of by nature because they live as a useless people ie they do not have or fail to develop what it takes to survive in this world.
Those who survive even most of them do not bother to be something one day rather they just live their lives aimlessly and the reason for that is they do not want to go beyond their comfort zone in which they feel secure. This inhibiting hesitation needs to be overcome by them which they cannot without someone or something forcing it upon them.
Those who want to be something one day they only learn things that make them what they want to be and that is it so they too do not go beyond the target they set for themselves.
It is very important to realise there are only two ways people can live in this world a)being driven by their psychological drives and their sets of circumstances and b)by planning ahead.
Most people survive at the mercy of nature so they only get up when they get kicked on their back sides otherwise they are not bothered to do anything at all for sake of their own betterment. This is why you will have seen people who were getting what they needed to survive through others they did not bother to do anything because they did not see the need for doing so. If anything they looked for ways of passing their time.
This was very much obvious in houses where one person went abroad to earn a living and the rest of the family lived on it. Their families did not make much effort to better themselves in education because they saw education as a way to get a job to earn a living which they were already getting. Not only that if a child went to school and learned whatever he could he did not bother to try and educate the rest of his family or people and those who tried they got a negative response from those whom they tried to help.
In short most people never saw any value in education itself they always tied it to the idea of making a living. So this is the mindset of most human beings therefore their wrong attitude towards education and life and living and that is why such people end up with the behaviour they show towards education. This is the reason communism based way of life failed because people could not back it up with equally powerful ideology in order to convince people to live a worthy or purposeful life.
In order to combat this mindset an idea for giving people some incentives was developed so that people who wished for a better life could work for it and that is the basis for capitalism. However when capitalism put people on the track to success it too failed to work because then people developed a mindset that if I work then what I get is mine because I worked for it.
Not only that when life became hard for those who missed the boat or were left behind they began to react against capitalism and its promoters and beneficiaries.
Since communism wants community based system and capitalism wants money based system they both ended up fighting each other and that fight has not ended yet and it can never end for so long as there are people who are rich and there are people who are poor. So long as humanity remains divided this way it cannot have peace. It is because rich do not let poor live in peace and poor also have no choice but to react and make life hell for the rich also as much as they can.
This is why rich people or capitalists brought in religion to try to create a safety valve in order to try to release excessive pressure that builds up in a human population. By way of religion rich people give a token help for useless people of society in order to keep them at bay to remain safe from their wrath. This is why religion is ritualism and minimum alms for the poor the rest is for the rich and wealthy to enjoy. This is why communists called religion opium of the masses.
If you could understand the link between communism and capitalism and religion you will realise why communists are against religion and why capitalists support religion. It is because communists see religion as a problem created for them by capitalists while capitalists know if they do not support religion then poor people of the world will tear them apart in no time for their abuses of poor people throughout the world.
One should therefore be able to see none of these can work on its own because they are brought about for all the wrong reasons. If humanity will continue living in confusion about them then it will remain in the same situation for as long as they do not bring about something different that works better than them all on its own and that is where in comes deen of islam.
What is deen of islam and why it is what it is or how it can be implemented etc etc, is all explained in detail in my writings here and there as well as on the jangforum.net in discover islam section to which I have already given links.
This will explain to anyone why mulim mullahs are funded by jews, christians and hindus etc and why muslims are allowed to build mosques etc so that thereby muslims could be kept confused through mullahs and for so long as muslims are kept confused the message of the quran can remain out of reach of mankind so the rich and wealthy are secure because there is not going to be any popular uprising against them throughout the world due injustices and cruelty that people are inflicting upon each other. It is because deen of islam is the only way of life that makes perfect sense as I have explained it in detail.
frankie wrote:No other prophet of the Bible God used violence to carry out God's instructions, they used word of mouth only, just as Jesus did.
Mohammed claimed to be a prophet in line with all previous prophets, but Mohammed did not use the same method as previous prophets to preach his message, he disobeyed the very God he claimed to represent, by using methods which would be harmful towards humanity, he used war as his opus operandi.
Any man calling himself a prophet of the Bible God must obey the commands of this God, but Mohammed disobeyed them, which means he worked for Satan who is in opposition to Yahweh,the Bible God,and Satan as the Bible tells us, is the author of lies and deception, who hates humanity and wants his entire destruction.
Your problem is not quotations but lack of interest in finding out the truth by studying things properly. It takes years to try to know anything at all because humans are born ignorant as babies and that makes them take time in knowing things properly even if they decide to know them by finding out things. This is why I cannot answer your query till I have the time to explain things as I understand them in other works in their proper contexts. If I am able to explain the quranic text why I cannot do the same for hadees books when it comes to that but life is short so it will help people if they too try their best to make sense of things for themselves. This is why I explained the way to do things so that people do not depend on me or others in this regard. All one has to do is be honest to oneself and be determined to learn things properly. One can only do so much and if one does things as one should then God will be well pleased with a person and it matters not what one claims to be in one's arrogance based ignorance. God calls such people worst than animals even though they claim to be human beings who deliberately go off the track for their vested interest ignoring proper study of the message of God out of their arrogance and haughtiness.
You need to realise that basis for deen of islam is very different from Christianity or Hinduism etc. There is no concept of original sin in deen of islam or its atonement. Not only that in deen of islam it is people who are suppose to run this world not God. God is only suppose to guide mankind how to run it that is why the quran is the way it is. This is why a muslim is not suppose to wait for supernatural intervention of God like chrisitians to put things right miraculously when they go wrong. This is why muslims who have taken their beliefs from christians are as confused as christians. Hindus also have similar beliefs that when things go wrong God incarnates in some form and comes to earth and sorts things out and then his incarnation ends in some way. The reason for such beliefs coming into muslims is very simple ie the people who turned muslims throughout the world already had a background so many of them brought their make beliefs and useless rituals with them which became part of muslim ummah and that is how deen of islam was turned into a mazhab when those who had proper knowledge of the quran gradually decreased in their number in the ummah after the death of the prophet when ummah became swamped by foreigners whose hosts could not educate them to proper deen of islam.
This is why you will see mullahs preaching hinduism or christianity etc in the name of islam. Muslims believe a lot more nonsense about jesus than chrisians and lot more hinduism than hindus. Look at people who expect second coming of jesus or imaam mahdi etc. Look at people who claim to be muslim yet worship graves. All this is done by muslims in the name of deen of islam because they do not know the quran and the mullahs are ignorant about the message in the quran. If anything they try to justify all sorts of make beliefs in the name of the quran and deen of islam. When I challenge such people I get no answers to my questions from any mullahs or any mullah follower.
If you have read my posts I have explained in detail what pillars of deen of islam are all about. Not what mullahs claim them to mean. Deen of islam is basically about building a proper human community called ummah in the kingdom of God ie the universe. Once people learn how to be an ummah and become an ummah then all will be fine as God has promised and we are promised very clearly in the quran that ummah will come about regardless how hard the opponents of this idea try to oppose or stop it from coming about. It is people who will bring it about using guidance of God not God. If it was up to God to bring about an ummah he will have done it in no time but that was not his plan nor his purpose for creation of this universe and things and people in it.
regards and all the best.