debunker wrote:Hello everyone,
I made a claim in one of my posts that Christians don't really know who God of the Bible is, and that they are unware of His confusing and contradictory nature. Our esteemed member, Chief, has challenged me to produce evidence to support my claim.
I promised Chief that I'll be presenting my case sometime soon. However, I need to clarify the rules of the debate.
1- The Bible is the only permissible scripture (the use of any other scripture is NOT allowed in this debate).
2- The maximum number of opponents is 5. Chief and Quills are already invited. I would also like to invite Winston (although he's agnostic) and I'm willing to accept 2 more opponents.
3- Atheists, agnostics, every non-christian, Mods (and trolls) don't qualify as acceptable opponents.
These are the rules, Chief. I hope that you find them reasonable.
the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
This Koran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah;
on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it,
and a fuller explanation of the Book (10:37 AYA/38 MP).
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
And if he hath divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she hath wedded another husband. Then if he (the other husband) divorce her it is no sin for both of them that they come together again. (Sura 2:230, Pickthall)
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:45-47)
Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- just as the Son of Man (Jesus) did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:26-28)
"We (the Jews) slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God" - yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. ... and they slew him not of certainty - no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.(Sura 4:156-157, Arberry)
Quran Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)
debunker wrote:1- God loves you, unconditionally?
An average Christian believes that they can sin all they want because God loved them so much as to allow His son to be nailed to the cross to wipe out all their
sins. Of course, this is nowhere near the truth. The truth (according to the Bible) is that your good deeds alone can’t save you. In other words, God of the Bible
is merciless enough as to not be able to forgive you even if you loved Him and even if you led a righteous life. He needs BLOOD to be able to forgive you. And
nothing less than a worthy sacrifice will get you off the hook of facing His rampant wrath.
Now here’s where it gets very confusing. God of the Bible, knowing that His appetite for high quality blood is insatiable, He realized that no man can deliver a
sacrifice worthy enough of satisfying His divine thirst for blood. So He decided to take the burden of sacrifice off humanity and throw it on the shoulders of
Jesus by brutally killing poor little Jesus himself! I know that doesn’t make any sense. It’s like when you apologize to someone and they insist they cannot forgive you unless they kill their own son. It sounds amazingly stupid, I know, but that’s how the wise God of the Bible believes “justice” is served.
Now Christian priests, desperately trying to sell their screwed up religion to the masses, hide this truth and all they advertize is that God loves you
unconditionally. So, it really is no wonder that an average Christian thinks they can sin all they want because their sins are already taken care of, when the
fact is (according to the Bible) your sins are taken care of ONLY IF you acknowledge Jesus’ sacrifice BY trying your best to lead a righteous life. Thinking that
you can sin all you want is to make a mockery of Jesus’ sacrifice which is even worse than not acknowledging it at all.
In short: this weird, sick, twisted, crazy so-called love is NOT “unconditional” like an average Christian fool has been led to believe. And Jesus has labeled
many things taken today for granted as sins. In fact, according to Jesus, even wealth is highly discouraged. Matthew 19:23-24.
2- Jesus is God?
3- Like Father, like Son?
Was Jesus the spitting image of his Father? Let’s see, shall we?
Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Everyone else compared to the ancient Israelites were dogs. (Matthew 15:21-28)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47;
A woman begs him to heal her daughter who was possessed by a demon but he so arrogantly tells her that helping her is like taking bread from one's children and
feeding it to the dogs. But when the woman acknowledged her level of being no more than a dog compared to the superior Israelites, he agreed to help her. That was
a big change of plans. God of the Bible consistently cared for His chosen people only (Children of Israel). And here we see Jesus, spontaneously decides to break
his Father’s old traditions and care for non-Israelites as well.
Jesus also seemed to be either confused or hypocritical about his Father’s old methods. In Matthew 5:18-19, for example, Jesus asserts that we should NOT ignore
the OT. But who needs the OT, anyway? Jesus stepped all over it in his teachings. Not only did he abolish many of the old rules, he ridiculed them! Examples:
a- Unclean foods: In the OT God through Moses has defined what is clean to eat and what is unclean. For example, it was considered unclean to eat without
washing hands, then came Jesus and did three things: 1- He made these laws of cleanliness obsolete (that's why Christians eat pigs while Jews don't, for example).
Honestly, I see no problem here, so it would seem that God decided to make life a little easier for the Israelites. But if only this were the case! 2- In fact,
Jesus explains "why" these laws are obsolete. According to the words of Jesus (Mathew 15: 16-17) these laws do NOT make any sense. He explains that whoever thinks
there's such a thing as unclean food has NO understanding! He implicitly accuses his Father (God) to be of no understanding since it is his Father who came up
with the idea of unclean foods in the first place. If this blaring contradiction doesn't catch your attention then be prepared for this piece of sheer genius: 3-
Jesus gives a justification of why his Father's old ways lack understanding, it's because regardless of what you eat it'll all turn into feces in the end anyway,
so why bother?
b- In John 8:3-7, a group of Israelites caught an adulterous and wanted to stone her to death according to the Mosaic Law. Again, Jesus wanted to abolish
this law. So what did he do? Did he say that God decided to eliminate harsh punishments out of mercy for example? No. He said "let he who has no sin cast the
first stone". He's implicitly saying, all of you are sinners too so don't judge her. So what was he thinking? His Father wasn't actually aware of this fact when
He laid down these rules in the first place? Again he implicitly ridicules his Father's orders by giving lame justifications of why they are needless.
c- Breaking the Sabbath. Mark 2:23-28.
So Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath when they collected grains to eat them. His Father was very particular about the Sabbath. He even ordered Moses to
stone a man to death for picking sticks on the Sabbath! So the Pharisees objected to this and Jesus’ response was? He defended himself by citing David and his
men’s eating from the Temple’s sacred bread which was an irrelevant incident. The priest agreed to give David and his men the bread because they have kept
themselves from women (thus they were ceremonially clean, See 1 Samuel 21:1-10). Besides, why would he hide behind David? David was a big time sinner, anyway. And to add insult to injury, he so hypocritically alters the words of his Father and claims that the Sabbath was made for man! What about Numbers 15:32-36 and Exodus 35:2?
It is no wonder that eventually the Israelites got fed up with Jesus ridiculing the laws of their Sky Daddy and wanted to kill him for his repeated disrespect of
the old laws (even though he was hypocritical enough not to reject these laws explicitly).
But one can’t help but point out God’s lack of help to Jesus as opposed to His constant support of Moses. Whenever the Israelites gave Moses a hard time, God
personally flew down to earth and gave them a severe beating until Moses intervened to calm down His rampant rage. See for example, this story of a few Israelite
men who challenged the authority of Moses and how his God came swiftly to his aid (Numbers 16).
The only good reason I can think of for God’s ignoring Jesus this way, is that He wanted His son to get killed, either because Jesus hypocritically insulted His
Father’s old ways or because He really craved Jesus’ blood to finally satisfy His thirst.
The most significant difference between Jesus and his Father, however, is Jesus’ good little heart. His crazy Father insisted that He wanted to spill someone’s
precious blood in order to be able to forgive good obedient people for their sins. And Jesus, so selflessly, agreed to play the role of the lamb… Although poor
Jesus did plead with His vicious Father to find some other way, like good old mercy, to avoid this bizarre requirement, but his Daddy wouldn’t accept anything
less than Jesus’ blood! What a stark difference in personalities! Mark 14:36.
And in case some of you might wonder if God has always been this savage, then you need not but to read the first two thirds of the Bible. A blood maniac, He most
certainly is. And just to give a glimpse of God’s evil nature, you can take a look at this little conversation between me and Winston here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1308&start=20#p18715
Bottom line: Jesus looked nothing like his grotesque Father. He was his Father’s antagonist!
4- Hypocritical Christians.
The heart of Jesus’ teachings is “The Sermon on the Mount” and the holy of holies of this sermon is “Turning the other Cheek”. The basic tenet of Christianity is
absolute pacifism. Jesus rejects the basic human right of self-defense. If someone wants to walk all over you, you should not resist but in fact you should
encourage them to do so. The best example of this is the instructions given to Christian slaves. A slave not only shouldn’t resist his slavery, but he shouldn’t
try to run away either, for that won’t be considered turning the other cheek! [Ephesians 6:5 & 1 Timothy 6:1-2 & Colossians 3:22-25]. I know this sounds beautiful
and all, but is it practical? Is it applicable? No wonder Christians have always ignored their beloved Jesus’ most basis instructions throughout history and
reverted to using the OT where God of the Bible called upon His children to exterminate/enslave whole nations.
5- Thou Shall Not Pray!
I really find it quite amusing that devout Christians are so big on prayer. Haven’t they ever read Mathew 6: 7-13? Jesus teaches his followers how to pray. FIRST
he claims that prayers should never be repetitive with many words like prayers of the "nations" (non-Israelites). But this contradicts the fact that in the OT the
"Israelites" had structured, repetitive prayers with many words. In fact some of these prayers were even sung (e.g. Psalms). SECOND he explains that God already
knows what it is you need hence the lack of need for all these too many words! HOWEVER, he immediately contradicts "himself" by asking his followers to say only
one single prayer over and over and over and over again: "Our Father in heavens, let your name be sanctified..." What just happened to God knows what's in your
heart and no repetitions are necessary? Of course God knows what is in my heart but prayer is a very basic form of worship and if you take away my words and
cancel repetitions then you are asking me not to pray, period! And when events get heated up and the hour of his capture approaches, Jesus of the Bible reverts to
the same exact form of prayer he denies his followers. See Mark 14: 32-42.
So relax Christians, there’s no need for you to pray. Jesus taught you how to pray only one prayer. Do it before you go to bed to help you fall asleep fast (out
of boredom).
6- Thou Shall Not swear?!
The biggest lie Christians believe about their God is that He doesn’t like foul language. But God of the Bible Himself never refrained from using the foulest
language ever. In Ezekiel 23 He describes the northern and southern nations of Israel as two filthy whores! And in Ezekiel 23: 19-21 He goes to great lengths to
describe the extent their whoredom. Another example is when He threatens the Israelites of their fate of eating human dung for bread and the special treatment He
gives to their prophet (Ezekiel) is eating cow dung instead. (Ezekiel 4:12-15). Of course, foul language abounds in the holy Bible, these verses I listed are but
a few.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47;
So the point is: to swear is a divine Godly behavior, and there’s no need to deprive your kids of using this type of language to creatively express themselves. If
anything, you should promote swearing contests and crown as the winner the kid whose profanity outweighs that of God of the Bible.
BINGO Jesus was just like his father, we get it straight from the Quran, Jesus gives life just like his father Allah.- Like Father, like Son?
Was Jesus the spitting image of his Father? Let’s see, shall we?
"There goes the confused Muslim attacking his God Allah again and his Quran which supports bible."
"you keep Attacking Allah and his books just like a good confused Muslim."
What great love are you talking about Chief? That God is so savage that He can't fogive His good obedient people who love Him unless He spills someone's precious blood? What kind of love is that? And it seems that you imply that this blood requirement is justice because of Adam's sin! I don't see how this is justice! Adam's sin is Adam's sin, I have nothing to do with it, why do I have to be responsible for his sin? I know that's how God of the Bible defines justice, but it's seriousely flawed!
This simply means, you won't be saved except if you believe in Jesus and his message. Now, let me give you another famous Jesus line:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."--John 17:20-21
Jesus is saying he is in God and God is in him and he prays that the desciples become in them (both Jesus and his Father). So does this mean that the disciples are also God?! This is just figure of speach. Don't read too much into it unless you're willing to make the claim that the desciples are God too. (Hmmmm... Is this why Catholics worship the Saints?!).
Actually Chief, like I said before in the Bible the title Father has nothing to do with helping us understand Him. When God of the Bible says He's someone's Father, He's simply honoring them. I listed many example before (Jacob, David, etc). And Jesus honored his followers and told them to call His Father, their Father.
Ok, first I'll ignore the part about the meaning of Allah's word "Kunn". Because my understanding of the Quran is completely irrelevant here. Now, it is evident in the Bible that Jesus had existed before he walked the earth, and it appears (according to the Bible) that indeed Jesus was God's first creation? But so what? He still was created by God and that doesn't make him God.
Ha! The burden of proof that he said he was God and he wanted people to worship him, lies upon you! Everywhere in the NT Jesus only asked people to worship God and never hinted that he's to be worshiped, and he himself prayed to God, why would he pray to God unless he was NOT God! Some common sense please!!!!!
First, the OT is two thirds of the Bible. Second, I used the OT only to put everything in perspective. (To be able to see the big picture).
I'm sorry but you're evading the point just like Jesus did. Remember that my objection is not that Jesus abolished the cleanliness code, but that he did it so hypocritically while insulting His Father in the process. He accused anyone thinking that there's such a thing as unclean food to lack understanding as if his Father was lacking when He created these rules in the first place!
It is men's rule you say? Then what do you make of this verse?
"If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel."--Deuteronomy 22:22
And do you think when God ordered the Israelites to observe His laws He wasn't already aware that everyone was a sinner and yet He wanted the people (although all sinners) to judge the sinner according to His law? My argument was if Jesus wanted to abolish this law by saying for example that God has ordered him to abolish it out of mercy, then there's no problem here. But when he so hypocritically abolishes the law by implying it is flawed, then he's ridiculing his Father!
If by the law you mean the savage weird unjust blood requirement, then indeed Jesus was the fulfillment of the law. He was the perfect lamb and his blood was the only thing that could satisfy God of the Bible's thirst.
Oh yeah? Why don't we read the verse in context:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you"--Matthew 5:38-42
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."--Luke 6:27-31
I can't believe this! How dare you criticize the Psalms?! It's part of the Bible, hence it's the words of your God! I mentioned the Psalms only to prove that Jesus was confused when he claimed that we shouldn't pray (with too many words) like the "nations" i.e. non-Israelites. Pslams are sung prayers given by Jesus' Father to the Israelites! Jesus prayer lesson contradicts the fact that Israelites prayed with too many words (anyway, in that lesson of his he even contradicted himself).
I never claimed that God of the Bible said you should use foul language like He did. All I said was that Christians shouldn't reproach their kids for using profanity when they express their anger because their God did it all the time, so it's a Godly behavior to use foul language. Don't be hypocritical and please let your kids emulate their God.
debunker wrote:Do NOT befriend INFIDELS!
Chief, in your last post you said “We are not to judge each other”. In fact that’s what’s understood from Jesus’ teachings. But I can’t help but wonder why then in the New Testament we find verses condemning “the other”. Examples:
2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers (infidels). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
2 John 1:10-11
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Don’t you think all these verses are very judgmental and alienating of “the others”? Why all this hostility?
And how is it possible to reconcile the stark contradiction with Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (love your enemy). Given these verses, I believe that Jesus’ instructions of loving the enemy is applicable only among the believers (Christians). In other words, since Jesus was speaking to his followers, then it would only make sense that Jesus was encouraging them to be extremely forgiving towards each other.
I believe verses like the ones I listed above are the reason why crusaders thought they were serving their God. Or is it because Jesus said many times not to ignore the OT (which constitutes two thirds of the Bible)?
Anyway, the bottom line is: Beware Christians! Don’t get friendly with the infidels or you’ll be sharing their wickedness!
debunker wrote:2- Jesus is God?
Never, not even once in the Bible did Jesus claim to be God. He never even hinted that he should be worshiped.
-Adam is a son of God (Luke 3:38)
-In Psalm 2:7 God declares David to be His begotten son (although He later discovered that He made a BIG mistake, for David turned out to be one very naughty boy!).
In Exodus 4:22, God of the Bible declares that Jacob (Israel) is His first born son!
Some Christians also desperately argue that people worshiped Jesus and he didn’t forbid them which somehow implies that he wanted them to worship him. And their evidence is? Mistranslated verses in the Bible
But I have to disagree about David being a begotten son.
God is talking about Israel as a nation here, who as a people, are in the unique position of being God's first choice. He's not talking about a person, least of all Jacob. Where do you get the idea of Jacob?
The translation here should read obseisance, which has nothing to do with worship.
Chief, my separating Jesus from His Father has NOTHING to do with me wanting things to seem logical. In fact, many things in the Bible do not make any sense to me. All what I'm doing is that I'm saying the NT never said Jesus was God, so there's absolutely no reason to make him God.
And yes, if my grandfather was a robber then I will live with the UNJUST stigma. But how can your "just" God blame me for my father's sins? But anyway, I will "pretend" that this is justice. Now, I will also "pretend" that Jesus is God, but then doesn't this make God a big time imbecile? Let's think about it a little, shall we?
So God thinks since Adam sinned, it is justice for all humanity to bear his sin. And to clear the sin, it is justice to make someone else pay with his blood. But since no one can give a worthy sacrifice, God kills Himself as a sacrifice to Himself to serve justice demanded by Himself!!!! My head is spinning so fast I'm about to puke!
Why believe in such a nauseating joke? The truth (according to the Bible) is: God killed Jesus as a sacrifice for a sin committed by someone else! Of course, since there's neither love nor justice in this, Christians desperately need to believe that God = Jesus to take the viciousness out of God and replace it with love, when the fact is all they're doing is replacing monstrosity and unjustice with supreme idiocy.
The verse: "For God so loved the world..." talks about God "loving" the world by KILLING His "beloved" Jesus. A contradiction in itself. Why can't He love the world by simply forgiving those who love Him and try their best to obey Him, out of mercy, for example? What's so wrong about mercy? The typical Christian answer is: because that wouldn't be justice! What Justice are you talking about? That because Adam sinned, I automatically become responsible for his sin and to top it off someone else must pay with his blood! I feel sick again, I have to throw up!
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