Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

[debunker]

...

[Chief Chingachgook]

Hello everyone,

I made a claim in one of my posts that Christians don't really know who God of the Bible is, and that they are unware of His confusing and contradictory nature. Our esteemed member, Chief, has challenged me to produce evidence to support my claim.

I promised Chief that I'll be presenting my case sometime soon. However, I need to clarify the rules of the debate.


1- The Bible is the only permissible scripture (the use of any other scripture is NOT allowed in this debate).
2- The maximum number of opponents is 5. Chief and Quills are already invited. I would also like to invite Winston (although he's agnostic) and I'm willing to accept 2 more opponents.
3- Atheists, agnostics, every non-christian, Mods (and trolls) don't qualify as acceptable opponents.

These are the rules, Chief. I hope that you find them reasonable.

Ahoy there mate!!! Yup go ahead and do take your time. Agree with the rules too and may I add : Where articles or works of other authors are copy-pasted, links to them must be included.

And may I suggest skenderbeg to fill up one of two places you permitted.

The floor is all yours mate

[debunker]

High Chief,

Don't worry, if I wanted to copy/paste I wouldn't need to take my time. I promise you that the majority of what I have to say will be my own (and I'll refer to references whenever needed).

So, the opponent team so far is Quills, Winston, skenderbeg and of course our esteemed Chief!

One spot still needs to be filled.

[debunker]

...

[Skenderbeg]

The Bible warned against false prophets like Mohammed, Mohammed was met by an evil spirit in the cave, who taught him hate slavery of women. Robbery. Murder...and war forever against all none Muslims..Religion of conquest and bloodshed.....

Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1, NIV).

For Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14, NIV).

We can see here Satan/spirit scared Mohammed almost to death, and made Mohammed feel as he was possessed, there is more. but for space I wont post all..u can read it here..

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... 1.sbt.html

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(

the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

before Islam he would spend days in this dark cave, seems like he wasn't mentally stable.

This Koran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah;
on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it,
and a fuller explanation of the Book (10:37 AYA/38 MP).

Quran says confirmation of the bible, it more contradictions, as i will only post a few differences..

In the Torah, God commanded Moses that a man must not remarry his wife if after leaving him she has married another man. In fact God said it is detestable to do such a thing.

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

the Qur'an allows a man to remarry his wife when after leaving him she has married another man:.. contradicts the Bible...

And if he hath divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she hath wedded another husband. Then if he (the other husband) divorce her it is no sin for both of them that they come together again. (Sura 2:230, Pickthall)

The Death of Jesus

In the Bible Jesus clearly taught that he would die and be raised from the dead:

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:45-47)

Jesus also explained the meaning of his death:

Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- just as the Son of Man (Jesus) did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:26-28)

the Qur'an teaches about the death of Jesus on the cross it says that he never really died!

"We (the Jews) slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God" - yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. ... and they slew him not of certainty - no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.(Sura 4:156-157, Arberry)

The Quran denys Jesus death,and makes nothing clear at all just confuses people, Only the bible is clear concerning Jesus..
for a book that claims to confirm the previous scriptures and be a clearer book, is anything but clear or easy to understand..

Quran Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)

Christians to judge by the Gospel ? we have to reject Mohammed the false confused pagan, and follow the gospel .

[debunker]

Note: Please concentrate on discussing the topic at hand (God of the Bible) without discussing any other (irrelevant) religions. Here are a few good reasons:

1- Even if the Quran is the most evil scripture in the world, I don't see how this can help you defend the Bible.

2- If you are interested in attacking the Quran, then you have the whole forum devoted for this. So please let's keep this thread on topic.

3- Your changing the subject only weakens your argument.

4- I specifically clarified that one of the rules of the debate is that NO scripture other than the Bible can be used.

[debunker]

...

[debunker]

Note to moderator: I’ll be posting here on a weekly (or bi-weekly) basis only. So please don’t remove this thread to somewhere else if you notice no activity for an extended period of time.

[Skenderbeg]

There goes the confused Muslim attacking his God Allah again and his Quran which supports bible.

And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur'an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:43-48, MP)

The key sentence from the above is, For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. This verse is teaching that the different religious groups (Jews, Christians and Muslims), have each been given a divine law (Torah, Gospel and Qur'an) and that each group is to make their decisions based upon what they have been given.

Thus the Qur'an encourages Jews to judge by the Torah:

How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43,MP)

And the Qur'an urges Christians to judge by the Gospel:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)

And it encourages Muslims to judge by the Qur'an:

And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur'an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed. (5:48, MP)

now whos confused

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (5:71 AYA/68 MP).

you keep Attacking Allah and his books just like a good confused Muslim

[Chief Chingachgook]

1- God loves you, unconditionally?

An average Christian believes that they can sin all they want because God loved them so much as to allow His son to be nailed to the cross to wipe out all their
sins. Of course, this is nowhere near the truth. The truth (according to the Bible) is that your good deeds alone can’t save you. In other words, God of the Bible
is merciless enough as to not be able to forgive you even if you loved Him and even if you led a righteous life. He needs BLOOD to be able to forgive you. And
nothing less than a worthy sacrifice will get you off the hook of facing His rampant wrath.
Now here’s where it gets very confusing. God of the Bible, knowing that His appetite for high quality blood is insatiable, He realized that no man can deliver a
sacrifice worthy enough of satisfying His divine thirst for blood. So He decided to take the burden of sacrifice off humanity and throw it on the shoulders of
Jesus by brutally killing poor little Jesus himself! I know that doesn’t make any sense. It’s like when you apologize to someone and they insist they cannot forgive you unless they kill their own son. It sounds amazingly stupid, I know, but that’s how the wise God of the Bible believes “justice” is served.

Now Christian priests, desperately trying to sell their screwed up religion to the masses, hide this truth and all they advertize is that God loves you
unconditionally. So, it really is no wonder that an average Christian thinks they can sin all they want because their sins are already taken care of, when the
fact is (according to the Bible) your sins are taken care of ONLY IF you acknowledge Jesus’ sacrifice BY trying your best to lead a righteous life. Thinking that
you can sin all you want is to make a mockery of Jesus’ sacrifice which is even worse than not acknowledging it at all.

In short: this weird, sick, twisted, crazy so-called love is NOT “unconditional” like an average Christian fool has been led to believe. And Jesus has labeled
many things taken today for granted as sins. In fact, according to Jesus, even wealth is highly discouraged. Matthew 19:23-24.

debunker, this is "how you see it", nothing wrong with that. We are entitled to what we believe to be the true account or actual account of a chain of events.
Yes God loves us unconditionally. Why shouldn't He since He was the one who created us? It is because of this great love that He must do something about it.
Salvation is the correct word. Remember the "God so love the world..." verse? Adam sinned and man was doomed eversince (so the story goes). It is like a son
perishing in quick sand with the father on dry solid ground. It is of little use for the son to demonstrate his love for his father by doing what little good he
could because he is perishing anyway and there is just no way for him to save himself. The father, only the father can do something and that He did
unconditionally because of His love..... and that, debunker, is Christianity's account. Jesus's death does not wipe out sins but to provide a way to The Father
who is on dry solid land. "I am the Way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father but through me" is Jesus's famous line.

You see debunker, we can 'understand' God's action and deeds by comparing Him with our very own father at home. In fact that is the very reason why he wants us to
call Him Father, thus God The Father, Loving Fathera, Heavenly Father etc., etc In fact my own understanding of God increase only when I become a father myself. I
did a lot of things for my kids which they never know of or never know why. All these I did because I love them. I bath them, put on their shoes when they are
small and helpless but I stop doing that when they grow up and can do it themselves. God does miracles and answers prayers only if we humans CANNOT help
ourselves. It is silly for me to bath and put on the shoes for my 10 year old kid. Likewise I want him to talk to me eventhough I roughly know what's in his head.

I know and sense something is wrong with him but I want him to talk it out. Likewise God wants us to pray to Him.

2- Jesus is God?

Yes He is God. He was with God since the beginning of time and He was The Word of God. The world was created through Him. He was God's Word.... heheheh...
remember your Allah? He said "Be!!!" or "Kunnnnnnn!!!" and viola it was there. Now THAT "Be!!!" or "Kunnnnn" was Jesus. When Sadam Hussein issueed an order to gas the Kurds we say "Sadam Hussein killed the Kurds" eventhough his order was carried out by his men. We cannot separate Sadam's words from him. The law says Sadam CAUSED the Kurds to be gassed to death. But for God His Word became flesh and lived among men. That is the doctrine. Who is he who talks like a President, have power or authority of a President, honored as only Presidents are honored? Must he always announce that he is President for him to be President?

Bring me a verse which effectively says "I am NOT God. I command you not to worship me!!!"

3- Like Father, like Son?

Was Jesus the spitting image of his Father? Let’s see, shall we?

Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Everyone else compared to the ancient Israelites were dogs. (Matthew 15:21-28)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47;
A woman begs him to heal her daughter who was possessed by a demon but he so arrogantly tells her that helping her is like taking bread from one's children and
feeding it to the dogs. But when the woman acknowledged her level of being no more than a dog compared to the superior Israelites, he agreed to help her. That was
a big change of plans. God of the Bible consistently cared for His chosen people only (Children of Israel). And here we see Jesus, spontaneously decides to break
his Father’s old traditions and care for non-Israelites as well.
Jesus also seemed to be either confused or hypocritical about his Father’s old methods. In Matthew 5:18-19, for example, Jesus asserts that we should NOT ignore
the OT. But who needs the OT, anyway? Jesus stepped all over it in his teachings. Not only did he abolish many of the old rules, he ridiculed them! Examples:

We must understand that the OT is actually a record of how God dealt with a generation of stubborn and proud men. Men kept on ignoring God's and sinning against
it. God gave humans a taste of their own medicines. Parents sometimes do that to their problematic kids. What our parents say or do in sarcasm mut not be taken to
be what our parents really meant. Jesus came and fulfilled the OT. He brought a new and everlasting Covenant.

a- Unclean foods: In the OT God through Moses has defined what is clean to eat and what is unclean. For example, it was considered unclean to eat without
washing hands, then came Jesus and did three things: 1- He made these laws of cleanliness obsolete (that's why Christians eat pigs while Jews don't, for example).
Honestly, I see no problem here, so it would seem that God decided to make life a little easier for the Israelites. But if only this were the case! 2- In fact,
Jesus explains "why" these laws are obsolete. According to the words of Jesus (Mathew 15: 16-17) these laws do NOT make any sense. He explains that whoever thinks
there's such a thing as unclean food has NO understanding! He implicitly accuses his Father (God) to be of no understanding since it is his Father who came up
with the idea of unclean foods in the first place. If this blaring contradiction doesn't catch your attention then be prepared for this piece of sheer genius: 3-
Jesus gives a justification of why his Father's old ways lack understanding, it's because regardless of what you eat it'll all turn into feces in the end anyway,
so why bother?

Nothing wrong with this. Here Jesus's definition of "unclean" means an action that would lead to sin, nothing to do with dirt. He said somewhere in Mark "Nothing
that goes in will make man unclean but something that comes out of him will make him unclean". The hurtful things we say, the lies we tell makes us unclean but
not the food we eat.

b- In John 8:3-7, a group of Israelites caught an adulterous and wanted to stone her to death according to the Mosaic Law. Again, Jesus wanted to abolish
this law. So what did he do? Did he say that God decided to eliminate harsh punishments out of mercy for example? No. He said "let he who has no sin cast the
first stone". He's implicitly saying, all of you are sinners too so don't judge her. So what was he thinking? His Father wasn't actually aware of this fact when
He laid down these rules in the first place? Again he implicitly ridicules his Father's orders by giving lame justifications of why they are needless.

Not exactly. The rule was laid out in sarcasm. It is men's rule. We are not to judge one another.

c- Breaking the Sabbath. Mark 2:23-28.
So Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath when they collected grains to eat them. His Father was very particular about the Sabbath. He even ordered Moses to
stone a man to death for picking sticks on the Sabbath! So the Pharisees objected to this and Jesus’ response was? He defended himself by citing David and his
men’s eating from the Temple’s sacred bread which was an irrelevant incident. The priest agreed to give David and his men the bread because they have kept
themselves from women (thus they were ceremonially clean, See 1 Samuel 21:1-10). Besides, why would he hide behind David? David was a big time sinner, anyway. And to add insult to injury, he so hypocritically alters the words of his Father and claims that the Sabbath was made for man! What about Numbers 15:32-36 and Exodus 35:2?

It is no wonder that eventually the Israelites got fed up with Jesus ridiculing the laws of their Sky Daddy and wanted to kill him for his repeated disrespect of
the old laws (even though he was hypocritical enough not to reject these laws explicitly).
But one can’t help but point out God’s lack of help to Jesus as opposed to His constant support of Moses. Whenever the Israelites gave Moses a hard time, God
personally flew down to earth and gave them a severe beating until Moses intervened to calm down His rampant rage. See for example, this story of a few Israelite
men who challenged the authority of Moses and how his God came swiftly to his aid (Numbers 16).
The only good reason I can think of for God’s ignoring Jesus this way, is that He wanted His son to get killed, either because Jesus hypocritically insulted His
Father’s old ways or because He really craved Jesus’ blood to finally satisfy His thirst.
The most significant difference between Jesus and his Father, however, is Jesus’ good little heart. His crazy Father insisted that He wanted to spill someone’s
precious blood in order to be able to forgive good obedient people for their sins. And Jesus, so selflessly, agreed to play the role of the lamb… Although poor
Jesus did plead with His vicious Father to find some other way, like good old mercy, to avoid this bizarre requirement, but his Daddy wouldn’t accept anything
less than Jesus’ blood! What a stark difference in personalities! Mark 14:36.
And in case some of you might wonder if God has always been this savage, then you need not but to read the first two thirds of the Bible. A blood maniac, He most
certainly is. And just to give a glimpse of God’s evil nature, you can take a look at this little conversation between me and Winston here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1308&start=20#p18715

Bottom line: Jesus looked nothing like his grotesque Father. He was his Father’s antagonist!

Jesus is THE fulfilment of the law.

4- Hypocritical Christians.

The heart of Jesus’ teachings is “The Sermon on the Mount” and the holy of holies of this sermon is “Turning the other Cheek”. The basic tenet of Christianity is
absolute pacifism. Jesus rejects the basic human right of self-defense. If someone wants to walk all over you, you should not resist but in fact you should
encourage them to do so. The best example of this is the instructions given to Christian slaves. A slave not only shouldn’t resist his slavery, but he shouldn’t
try to run away either, for that won’t be considered turning the other cheek! [Ephesians 6:5 & 1 Timothy 6:1-2 & Colossians 3:22-25]. I know this sounds beautiful
and all, but is it practical? Is it applicable? No wonder Christians have always ignored their beloved Jesus’ most basis instructions throughout history and
reverted to using the OT where God of the Bible called upon His children to exterminate/enslave whole nations.

Turning the other cheek here actually mean self-defense!!! Try this : If someone is about to slap you, quickly turn the other cheek. His swing will be off-target.

Seriously "turning the other cheek" means "don't retaliate". It doesn't mean that we offer our cheeks to be slapped like you say it is. You are confused.
Retaliation will not bring us any good. Man or even beasts do that since time immemorial. God's prized "material" is repentence, mercy and forgiveness and not how
hard you hit the other fellow human or how much we pay the other for damage. To God once a sin is commited the repentance of one and the forgiveness of the other
is enough to settle the sin. A son who offend his father need not pay money. He simply say "Sorry dad, I made a mistake. I will try not to repeat it"

The actions of a secular country must not be taken to be inseparable from Christianity.

5- Thou Shall Not Pray!
I really find it quite amusing that devout Christians are so big on prayer. Haven’t they ever read Mathew 6: 7-13? Jesus teaches his followers how to pray. FIRST
he claims that prayers should never be repetitive with many words like prayers of the "nations" (non-Israelites). But this contradicts the fact that in the OT the
"Israelites" had structured, repetitive prayers with many words. In fact some of these prayers were even sung (e.g. Psalms). SECOND he explains that God already
knows what it is you need hence the lack of need for all these too many words! HOWEVER, he immediately contradicts "himself" by asking his followers to say only
one single prayer over and over and over and over again: "Our Father in heavens, let your name be sanctified..." What just happened to God knows what's in your
heart and no repetitions are necessary? Of course God knows what is in my heart but prayer is a very basic form of worship and if you take away my words and
cancel repetitions then you are asking me not to pray, period! And when events get heated up and the hour of his capture approaches, Jesus of the Bible reverts to
the same exact form of prayer he denies his followers. See Mark 14: 32-42.
So relax Christians, there’s no need for you to pray. Jesus taught you how to pray only one prayer. Do it before you go to bed to help you fall asleep fast (out
of boredom).

God tells us not to "pray" but to "talk" to Him. The sample prayer Jesus gave is very simple unlike the Psalms which is both bombastic and rhymes too.

6- Thou Shall Not swear?!

The biggest lie Christians believe about their God is that He doesn’t like foul language. But God of the Bible Himself never refrained from using the foulest
language ever. In Ezekiel 23 He describes the northern and southern nations of Israel as two filthy whores! And in Ezekiel 23: 19-21 He goes to great lengths to
describe the extent their whoredom. Another example is when He threatens the Israelites of their fate of eating human dung for bread and the special treatment He
gives to their prophet (Ezekiel) is eating cow dung instead. (Ezekiel 4:12-15). Of course, foul language abounds in the holy Bible, these verses I listed are but

a few.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47;

So the point is: to swear is a divine Godly behavior, and there’s no need to deprive your kids of using this type of language to creatively express themselves. If
anything, you should promote swearing contests and crown as the winner the kid whose profanity outweighs that of God of the Bible.

Zzzzzz..... the OT. You are extraporlating. Bring me a verse which orders me to 'swear' like God did in Eziekel or one which teaches me to encourage my son to

swear?

[Skenderbeg]

Dubunker wrote

- Like Father, like Son?

Was Jesus the spitting image of his Father? Let’s see, shall we?

BINGO Jesus was just like his father, we get it straight from the Quran, Jesus gives life just like his father Allah.


Quran..
to be a Messenger to the Children of Israel saying, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I will CREATE for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird (annee akhluqu lakum mina al-teeni kahay-ati al-tayri faanfukhu feehi fayakoonu tayran), by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God. I will inform you too of what things you eat, and what you treasure up in your houses. Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. S. 3:49

When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou CREATEST out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird (wa-ith takhluqu mina al-teeni kahay-ati al-tayri bi-ithnee fatanfukhu feeha fatakoonu tayran), by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest." S. 5:110

Jesus in the Quran has the power to heal the blind raise the dead breath his word into a clay bird and give life. JESUS breaths life just like Allah.

The bible now..

"Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.’" John 6:35-40

Your Quran proves Jesus is able to give life, it says with Gods leave, but like the bible shows God has given his son the power of life
and the power to heal and raise from the dead whom he chooses, seems like Jesus and Allah/God work pefectly together..

Just like father and son.....

[debunker]

...

[debunker]

Dear S,

Please STOP using the Quran to support your argument. In this thread I NEVER used the Quran to make any of my arguments.

The only scripture relevant to discussing the God of the Bible is the Bible itself. So please no more Quran... It's irrelevant. and to make things a bit clearer for you, pretend that I am a Hindu, OK? So, there's no reason to keep bringing up the Quran. Stop it already.

Now, you said Jesus raised the dead, so what? He raised the dead by God's will (just like Moses split the sea by God's will).

See John 11:40-43:
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?" So they removed the stone Then Jesus raised his eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me." When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."

As for John 6:35-40, this just proves that Jesus is working under the authority of His father, as it is evident throughout the Gospel.

"There goes the confused Muslim attacking his God Allah again and his Quran which supports bible."

"you keep Attacking Allah and his books just like a good confused Muslim."

I really don't understand what do you mean by this.... I already told you, Quran is IRRELEVANT in this discussion, why can't you get it?! In fact, the only thing I can understand here is that you are trying to intimidate me by invoking the fear of my God's wrath! I already told you in another thread, the majority of Muslims wouldn't dare criticize the Bible at all, but I'm not one of them. In this thread I am NON-MUSLIM, got it?

[debunker]

Do NOT befriend INFIDELS!

Chief, in your last post you said “We are not to judge each other”. In fact that’s what’s understood from Jesus’ teachings. But I can’t help but wonder why then in the New Testament we find verses condemning “the other”. Examples:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers (infidels). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

2 John 1:10-11
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Don’t you think all these verses are very judgmental and alienating of “the others”? Why all this hostility?

And how is it possible to reconcile the stark contradiction with Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (love your enemy). Given these verses, I believe that Jesus’ instructions of loving the enemy is applicable only among the believers (Christians). In other words, since Jesus was speaking to his followers, then it would only make sense that Jesus was encouraging them to be extremely forgiving towards each other.

I believe verses like the ones I listed above are the reason why crusaders thought they were serving their God. Or is it because Jesus said many times not to ignore the OT (which constitutes two thirds of the Bible)?

Anyway, the bottom line is: Beware Christians! Don’t get friendly with the infidels or you’ll be sharing their wickedness!

[Chief Chingachgook]

What great love are you talking about Chief? That God is so savage that He can't fogive His good obedient people who love Him unless He spills someone's precious blood? What kind of love is that? And it seems that you imply that this blood requirement is justice because of Adam's sin! I don't see how this is justice! Adam's sin is Adam's sin, I have nothing to do with it, why do I have to be responsible for his sin? I know that's how God of the Bible defines justice, but it's seriousely flawed!

It is not someone else's precious blood. It is His own blood. It is His own doing. It is His great sacrifice of love for His creation, man. You must not separate Jesus from God for the event to be 'logical'. Through the sin of one man Adam man was doomed and through one man the world was saved. You are not responsible for Adam's sin but it affects you and me and there's nothing we can do about it. If your grandfather was a robber your father and you will live with the stigma.

This simply means, you won't be saved except if you believe in Jesus and his message. Now, let me give you another famous Jesus line:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."--John 17:20-21

Jesus is saying he is in God and God is in him and he prays that the desciples become in them (both Jesus and his Father). So does this mean that the disciples are also God?! This is just figure of speach. Don't read too much into it unless you're willing to make the claim that the desciples are God too. (Hmmmm... Is this why Catholics worship the Saints?!).

Alright you are right in your understanding of "I am the Way, Truth and Life...." Here "the Way" means the His blood/sacrifice. No one comes to the Father except THROUGH Him, through His death.

John 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, [are] in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Which version of the Bible are you quoting from?
There are many ways of interpreting the message that the Disciples will preach and Jesus prayed that they may be ONE in God. We have many denomination of Christians in the world today and Jesus wants them to be ONE in GOD, to be in agreement with the central message.

Okay, let's assume that the Bible you are quoting from is really as above. How can we logically conclude that the Disciples are also God when it is ONLY Jesus's wish? Besides there just this verse alone. There is insufficient information to treat the DIsciples as God.

Catholics don't worship their Saints. They ask them (Saints) to pray together with them (Catholics). Catholics believe their Saints are already with God in heaven. The same treatement goes for Mary, Jesus's mother.

Actually Chief, like I said before in the Bible the title Father has nothing to do with helping us understand Him. When God of the Bible says He's someone's Father, He's simply honoring them. I listed many example before (Jacob, David, etc). And Jesus honored his followers and told them to call His Father, their Father.

Let us make man in our own image says Genesis.
Jesus's parable of the prodigal son demontrates God is like a Father. "Children of God" means God is like a Father. I ask you why do you think God is angry if we pollute his planet and I ask you why do you think your dad will grill you if you cut down his orange tree in order to get it's fruits?

Ok, first I'll ignore the part about the meaning of Allah's word "Kunn". Because my understanding of the Quran is completely irrelevant here. Now, it is evident in the Bible that Jesus had existed before he walked the earth, and it appears (according to the Bible) that indeed Jesus was God's first creation? But so what? He still was created by God and that doesn't make him God.

No, you are wrong. Jesus was with God. He was NOT created. Jesus was God's speech or, as the Bible puts it, God's Word. God has the power to make His speech or His breath into flesh. Sadam Hussein's order or command are with him. Obama's speech is with him. Obama runs his policies through commands, speeches, memos, letters, statements .... etc. God created the world by His Word. That's the doctrine. In order for the world to know, God has to teach by actions, messages, miracles and exampkes and what better person to do all these other than Jesus. The world has seen, listened, disobeyed many a Prophet.

Ha! The burden of proof that he said he was God and he wanted people to worship him, lies upon you! Everywhere in the NT Jesus only asked people to worship God and never hinted that he's to be worshiped, and he himself prayed to God, why would he pray to God unless he was NOT God! Some common sense please!!!!!

You are right, "Jesus is God" is mine to prove but "Jesus is NOT God" is yours. I asked you for a verse. Give me.

debunker, if someone comes to you and say "I am a Geologist" will you believe him even if he cannot differentiate between granite and limestone rock? Need Jesus say He is God after He:
perform miracles, talk with authority, act divinely, sinless, rise from the dead, raise the dead, walk on water, etc? In John 20:28 Thomas said "My Lord and my God". At the end of Mathew Chapter 28 Jesus did not prevent them from worshipping Him.

First, the OT is two thirds of the Bible. Second, I used the OT only to put everything in perspective. (To be able to see the big picture).

But the BIG PICTURE or the Divine Plan is that man erred and fell short of the glory of God. But God, like a good father will not punish His children for ever. He promised salvation but not before man suffered some lessons. The salvation came in the form of the Messiah and a New Covenant.

I'm sorry but you're evading the point just like Jesus did. Remember that my objection is not that Jesus abolished the cleanliness code, but that he did it so hypocritically while insulting His Father in the process. He accused anyone thinking that there's such a thing as unclean food to lack understanding as if his Father was lacking when He created these rules in the first place!

It is men's rule you say? Then what do you make of this verse?
"If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel."--Deuteronomy 22:22

And do you think when God ordered the Israelites to observe His laws He wasn't already aware that everyone was a sinner and yet He wanted the people (although all sinners) to judge the sinner according to His law? My argument was if Jesus wanted to abolish this law by saying for example that God has ordered him to abolish it out of mercy, then there's no problem here. But when he so hypocritically abolishes the law by implying it is flawed, then he's ridiculing his Father!

If by the law you mean the savage weird unjust blood requirement, then indeed Jesus was the fulfillment of the law. He was the perfect lamb and his blood was the only thing that could satisfy God of the Bible's thirst.

Jesus was ridiculing the Pharisees for pointing out His disciples did not wash their hands PROPERLY, unless you were taking the Pharisees to be Jesus's 'Father'. The Pharisees were always trying to find faults with Him and His Disciples. As you can see it is the "proper" way that is an issue here.

Oh yeah? Why don't we read the verse in context:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you"--Matthew 5:38-42

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."--Luke 6:27-31

You asked, "Is it practical?", "Is it applicable?" I ask : Which rules, regulations, laws fits EVERYONE perfectly? Jesus was teaching us not to be satisfied with doing good because even sinners do good.

I may add : Who, except muslims, will do the extreme by oppressing minorities in their midst. They ask for Jizya and Christians pay them. They bomb their homes and Christians gave them their churches to bomb too.

.......

I can't believe this! How dare you criticize the Psalms?! It's part of the Bible, hence it's the words of your God! I mentioned the Psalms only to prove that Jesus was confused when he claimed that we shouldn't pray (with too many words) like the "nations" i.e. non-Israelites. Pslams are sung prayers given by Jesus' Father to the Israelites! Jesus prayer lesson contradicts the fact that Israelites prayed with too many words (anyway, in that lesson of his he even contradicted himself).

Psalms is not the words of God. In fact most part of the Bible are narrations and stories. A lot of Psalms are attributed to King David. Psalms are sung during worship. They are mostly songs of worship collected over centuries.

Jesus was ridiculing the pagans and hipocrites for showing off praying using big words and standing in street corners and parks like the Muslims sometimes do in London and New York. He gave a sample prayer. Not once did He stop people praying. Prayer should be like talking to a friend.

I never claimed that God of the Bible said you should use foul language like He did. All I said was that Christians shouldn't reproach their kids for using profanity when they express their anger because their God did it all the time, so it's a Godly behavior to use foul language. Don't be hypocritical and please let your kids emulate their God.

You agree God did not command me to use foul language. I will not allow my kids to use foul language because even non-Christians don't do that.

[Chief Chingachgook]

Do NOT befriend INFIDELS!

Chief, in your last post you said “We are not to judge each other”. In fact that’s what’s understood from Jesus’ teachings. But I can’t help but wonder why then in the New Testament we find verses condemning “the other”. Examples:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers (infidels). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

2 John 1:10-11
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Don’t you think all these verses are very judgmental and alienating of “the others”? Why all this hostility?

And how is it possible to reconcile the stark contradiction with Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (love your enemy). Given these verses, I believe that Jesus’ instructions of loving the enemy is applicable only among the believers (Christians). In other words, since Jesus was speaking to his followers, then it would only make sense that Jesus was encouraging them to be extremely forgiving towards each other.

I believe verses like the ones I listed above are the reason why crusaders thought they were serving their God. Or is it because Jesus said many times not to ignore the OT (which constitutes two thirds of the Bible)?

Anyway, the bottom line is: Beware Christians! Don’t get friendly with the infidels or you’ll be sharing their wickedness!

That's correct. There is no "Moral Police" , no Court of Biblical Law in Christianity.

There is no hostility here and no command to kill. The early Christians in Corinth were told to avoid sinful people. No hostility.

[Quills]

2- Jesus is God?
Never, not even once in the Bible did Jesus claim to be God. He never even hinted that he should be worshiped.

Hello debunker,

You are right, Jesus is not God. Jesus himself said that the Father is greater than Him at John 14:28

-Adam is a son of God (Luke 3:38)

Yes, as we are all sons and daughters of God.

-In Psalm 2:7 God declares David to be His begotten son (although He later discovered that He made a BIG mistake, for David turned out to be one very naughty boy!).

But I have to disagree about David being a begotten son.

Since Jesus is God's firstborn, meaning He was directly created by God, Jesus is the only one in the unique position of being a 'begotten' son. Everyone and everything else was created through Jesus, so no one else can be begotten.

Commentators of the Bible have criticized that the translation of the Greek word monogenes by the english words only begotten is not accurate. They point out that the last part of the word (genes) doesn't come from the Greek word gennao meaning beget. But comes from the Greek word genos meaning kindred.

This is probably why Bibles differ on the translation, and confuses people.

Monogenes http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/v ... umber=3439
Genos http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/v ... umber=1085
Gennao http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/v ... umber=1080

In Exodus 4:22, God of the Bible declares that Jacob (Israel) is His first born son!

God is talking about Israel as a nation here, who as a people, are in the unique position of being God's first choice. He's not talking about a person, least of all Jacob. Where do you get the idea of Jacob?

Some Christians also desperately argue that people worshiped Jesus and he didn’t forbid them which somehow implies that he wanted them to worship him. And their evidence is? Mistranslated verses in the Bible

The translation here should read obseisance, which has nothing to do with worship.

Quills

[debunker]

Quills,

You sound so much like a Jehova Witness. By the way, I happen to believe that Jehova Witnesses are the only true Christians. They are the closest to understanding the Bible (except when it comes to a few things like denying Hell, etc). And your claim that Jesus is NOT God (as it is EXTREMELY obvious from reading the New Testament) infuriates all other Christians. Why is telling a truth that is as clear as the midday sun so maddening to other Christians? It's OBVIOUS just by reading the Bible!

It's so sad that the only true Christians (as defined by the NT) are such a trivially small minority among Christians.

But I have to disagree about David being a begotten son.

This is the only English version where the word "begotten" is used.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=49;
In the Arabic Bible, also the word "begotten" is used.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=28;

However, I have no problem with ignoring the word "begotten" in these two translations.

God is talking about Israel as a nation here, who as a people, are in the unique position of being God's first choice. He's not talking about a person, least of all Jacob. Where do you get the idea of Jacob?

Ok, it could be understood like you said.

So what you're basically saying is that although Jesus is God's creation, he's God's greatest creation. I have no problem with that. It is obvious, reading the Bible, that Jesus is a very special son of God, but that does NOT make him God as we both agree.

The translation here should read obseisance, which has nothing to do with worship.

We both agree here. Good luck convincing Chief and others of this!

[debunker]

...

[Chief Chingachgook]

Chief, my separating Jesus from His Father has NOTHING to do with me wanting things to seem logical. In fact, many things in the Bible do not make any sense to me. All what I'm doing is that I'm saying the NT never said Jesus was God, so there's absolutely no reason to make him God.

There are ample evidence (verses, actions, examples, deed, authority, miracles, prophecies, being sinless, born of a virgin, promise to come again, promise to be with people till the end of times, predicted His death and resurrection, promise to send the Holy Spirit..) to conclude Jesus IS God and there is NOT A SINGLE VERSE in which Jesus denied, refused the calling, rebuke people for taking Him as such.

And yes, if my grandfather was a robber then I will live with the UNJUST stigma. But how can your "just" God blame me for my father's sins? But anyway, I will "pretend" that this is justice. Now, I will also "pretend" that Jesus is God, but then doesn't this make God a big time imbecile? Let's think about it a little, shall we?

Think about it as genes and DNA's

So God thinks since Adam sinned, it is justice for all humanity to bear his sin. And to clear the sin, it is justice to make someone else pay with his blood. But since no one can give a worthy sacrifice, God kills Himself as a sacrifice to Himself to serve justice demanded by Himself!!!! My head is spinning so fast I'm about to puke!

If Adam and Eve were ejected from Paradise and fall into say, quick-sand, their offsprings would all be born in that quick-sand, so to speak. Who else can help them out except an outsider who comes passing by.

Why believe in such a nauseating joke? The truth (according to the Bible) is: God killed Jesus as a sacrifice for a sin committed by someone else! Of course, since there's neither love nor justice in this, Christians desperately need to believe that God = Jesus to take the viciousness out of God and replace it with love, when the fact is all they're doing is replacing monstrosity and unjustice with supreme idiocy.

It's not a joke. It is called faith. All religions are based on faith. The important thing is the teaching. There are still many unanswered questions in ALL faiths. There are many things we don't know about the WHY's and the HOW's of God. When we are small kids there are many things we don't know about our parents. We take things for granted.

I told you there are more evidence indicating Jesus is God than there are evidence that He is not. It is not coined by Christians just to make the story flow.

The verse: "For God so loved the world..." talks about God "loving" the world by KILLING His "beloved" Jesus. A contradiction in itself. Why can't He love the world by simply forgiving those who love Him and try their best to obey Him, out of mercy, for example? What's so wrong about mercy? The typical Christian answer is: because that wouldn't be justice! What Justice are you talking about? That because Adam sinned, I automatically become responsible for his sin and to top it off someone else must pay with his blood! I feel sick again, I have to throw up!

You still don't get me and my quick-sand analogy and my head is spinning too. It is because of His GREAT LOVE and out of GREAT MERCY for His people in the quick sand that He must do something about it. It is written : It is by His Grace that we are SAVED. That's why Jesus is called a SAVIOUR, a REDEEMER...

I think what you really want to ask is this : Why don't God just say "Be!!!" and voila, everything is undone, Adam and his girlfriend is back in Paradise.... etc" That you have to ask God. Whichever way God has choosen He has choosen.

I think you need to take a break debunker! Your head is spinning and you're about to throw out... You seem to be running in circles and beating around the bush.