How was life like when you were a muslim?

[eSHaHeEN]

To say Mohammed was "progressive towards women within his time" is not at all factual, even though this is put to Muslims to make them believe their prophet to be a good man.

Islam tells us the following with regards to women:

1) They are deficient in intelligence.
2) You can beat your woman
3) Woman's testimony is half that of a man
4)Your wives are as a tilth unto you
5)Women are unclean because of their periods and thereby they are termed as hurt
6) Islam tells us that women cannot be leaders.
7) Islam allows men to marry 4 women but the reverse is not allowed.
8) Islam allows to rape women prisoners of war.
9) Islam suppressed women's progress. An example is : Khadija could run a business in pre islamic times however after islam came in, we hardly hear about any woman doing what Khadija managed to do.

How in the world can any sane person claim that islam was progressive towards women? I must say eSHaHeEN is really insulting all the women in the world!.

So in the Roman empire women were leaders, Romans didnt have female slaves and sex with them and didnt rape. Women were equal to men in all regards? The Christian church and Judaism are led by women?
This has nothing to do with religion but honestly Im tired of this Western feminist propaganda baloney that is trying to brainwash people into believing that women and men are completely equal in their abilities.
It seems to me that western feminism has eradicated common sense. Women as leaders? Are you serious? Just remind yourself for a moment about the women you grew up with and now tell me honestly wether any of these girls and women could possibly lead a group of people. From my experience the only women that would be able to lead a group show a very masculine personality.

[eSHaHeEN]

Hi eSHaHeEN,

you are making a point similar to Ali Sina... sure, "leaving" Islam is not a one step action. In fact it takes different routes for everyone. However, what is always the case, that this dis-attachment from Islam takes a very long time, and sometimes people even return to it. I hope it is not a too personal question, but for most people the last thing people leave behind are the dietary rules. Do you still eat broadly halal? I have an ex-Muslim Turkish friend, and he has not ever touched a pork sausage in his life, but, strangely he is rather fond of wine, much more so than me...

And you are making the point that we should look as Mohammed as simply a man of his time and at the Qur'an as a product of its time. Well, I do my best to do exactly that, and most Muslims find that very offensive. But if we do, what will we have in the QUr'an other than a historical source document?

Would you say that we actually need "guidances" from a "prophet"? Or can we work out our own answers to religious questions? I find that in discussing them simply, with as many people as possible is a very good way to explore, question, and establish you own secure position.

So, what are things you cling to from Islam? Which are the things you are sure are good and true, things to be kept safe? Of is this clinging more an emotional thing? Both is perfectly fine, as long as you have understood it within yourself.

If I am asking too personal questions, just tell me to shut up.

Hello Manfred,
I appreciate your post because youre actually asking the right questions which are not easy to answer. I guess one of your questions was "what is religion/a prophet good for"? Im going to answer that question soon, right now Ive got things to do.
Best regards shaheen.

[frankie]

To say Mohammed was "progressive towards women within his time" is not at all factual, even though this is put to Muslims to make them believe their prophet to be a good man.

Islam tells us the following with regards to women:

1) They are deficient in intelligence.
2) You can beat your woman
3) Woman's testimony is half that of a man
4)Your wives are as a tilth unto you
5)Women are unclean because of their periods and thereby they are termed as hurt
6) Islam tells us that women cannot be leaders.
7) Islam allows men to marry 4 women but the reverse is not allowed.
8) Islam allows to rape women prisoners of war.
9) Islam suppressed women's progress. An example is : Khadija could run a business in pre islamic times however after islam came in, we hardly hear about any woman doing what Khadija managed to do.

How in the world can any sane person claim that islam was progressive towards women? I must say eSHaHeEN is really insulting all the women in the world!.

So in the Roman empire women were leaders, Romans didnt have female slaves and sex with them and didnt rape. Women were equal to men in all regards? The Christian church and Judaism are led by women?
This has nothing to do with religion but honestly Im tired of this Western feminist propaganda baloney that is trying to brainwash people into believing that women and men are completely equal in their abilities.
It seems to me that western feminism has eradicated common sense. Women as leaders? Are you serious? Just remind yourself for a moment about the women you grew up with and now tell me honestly wether any of these girls and women could possibly lead a group of people. From my experience the only women that would be able to lead a group show a very masculine personality.

eSHaHeEN:

You are failing to address a fundamental point here, Mohammed is taken to be mankind's role model, (the emphasis being on the word man),whatever he did is relevant for all time, giving Muslim men authority do exactly as their prophet did. But, Mohammed lived by the standards of his time i.e.7th century Arabia, and science and reason has since moved on to a position to dictate that to use children as marriage material is not only physically and mentally damaging to children, it is damaging to society as a whole.

This puts Mohammed's actions into question, as he said he was a prophet of (a) god, in which case he should have known not to sexually interfere with a child of nine, thereby giving humanity the correct "pattern of conduct" for all time.

This is not the only reason why Mohammed falls short of being a true prophet, he was a warmongering tyrant whose legacy puts Muslims into eternal conflict with Non Muslims.

Contrary to Allahs commands and Mohammed's life as a "prophet,"eternal warfare is not beneficial to humanity, the Muslim world giving testament to this fact on a daily basis.

[manfred]

So in the Roman empire women were leaders, Romans didnt have female slaves and sex with them and didnt rape.

Nobody actually said that now.... right?

And NO ROMAN ever stood up and claimed to be a moral example for ALL MANKIND, now and in the future.

I only know of one such man, and he lived some time later...

[skynightblaze]

So in the Roman empire women were leaders, Romans didnt have female slaves and sex with them and didnt rape. Women were equal to men in all regards? The Christian church and Judaism are led by women?

Are you resorting to TU Quoque (a logical fallacy)?

This has nothing to do with religion but honestly Im tired of this Western feminist propaganda baloney that is trying to brainwash people into believing that women and men are completely equal in their abilities.
It seems to me that western feminism has eradicated common sense. Women as leaders? Are you serious? Just remind yourself for a moment about the women you grew up with and now tell me honestly wether any of these girls and women could possibly lead a group of people. From my experience the only women that would be able to lead a group show a very masculine personality.

Read the following link and admit that Muhammad was a dumb ass as he said women can never be leaders. Note that he does not even say that there can be exceptions..

http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women ... rtune-1000

Yes women can lead not just a handful of people but even huge MNC's. Women have matched men in almost all the aspects. The only thing they probably cant match is physical strength. On an average, men are physically stronger but that too does not imply that all the men are stronger than all the women. You may have a woman who is into body building and she can beat the sh!t out of many men.

[eSHaHeEN]

Yes women can lead not just a handful of people but even huge MNC's. Women have matched men in almost all the aspects.

No they havent. And they never will unless they become men. Maybe youre too young or unexperienced to see that.
Im not saying there are no exceptions from the rule. Aisha led an army of 10,000 fighters and a lot of Muslim countries had Muslim female leaders much earlier than their western counterparts by the way.
However Im talking about majority. The majority of women is not able to lead a group of people.
Female personality is not acquired, it is hereditary. And theyre not taking the lead because theyre supressed by men but because they
simply dont want to take the lead. If I have the choice to trust my eyes or YOU and YOUR "dumba55" studies, I think I rather trust my eyes.

EDIT: some companies employ women as leaders for certain reasons. Because of marketing, power reasons or to fulfill a certain quota. The number of 5-6 % is not very high anyway.

[manfred]

So are you saying that a woman should not have ANY role managing people, such as head teacher, for example?

BTW, it has really has been over half a century that someone suggested I may be too young for something.... that kind of put a spring in my step...

[Hombre]

Im neither Shiite nor from Teheran. If you had read the topic of the thread, it says "muslims and ex-muslims only". now what the hell are YOU doing here?

I am here to have fun reading comments from guys like you - defending the indefensible.

I defend rationality. However the criticism towards Islam and Muslims in Western media and public opinion obviously trespasses the border of rationality on a regular basis and I believe this can only be explained with current political climate.

Spare the grief, I have lived long enough among Muslims and their view of the world, vis-a-vis other non Muslims to realize - it is, BUT rational. Otherwise, it is hard to understand your pov, when every comment t which you make, "it was of his time" is threaded in. Yes, everything in universe "was in that time". Today we live in far different standards then 1000 years ago. As we learn more about life - we adapt to new standards. While Judea-Christian societies are not afraid to proclaim, many of those practices no longer apply ot current era - Muslim still stick to and practice each & every deed or word made by Mohammad - to the letter. FEAR is the only motivation which keeps Muslim in-line - not necessarily religious conviction. Why the need to kill any Muslim who questions Muhamad? you tell me!!!!

As frankie pointed out, child marriage of 9 year old girl, deprive her of the stages of maturity which dictated by natural evolution, essential to human development, as productive members of society. A 9 year girl, simply does not have the mental, nor the physical capacities to meet the everyday challenges of family planning, which every older wife & mother face . It is not good for herself, not for her children, and certainly not for society at large.

As for your claim "Age of marriage in Arab & Islamic countries is "16 to 18", is not true. In Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, and many other Islamic states, practice of child marriage is still live and practiced. It is the sickening & barbaric cultural permeated throughout the Arab & Islamic world that, every man's wet-dream is to have sex with a virgin girl - to be the first. No Muslim dares to speak publicly against it, to do that, is viewed as questioning Mohamad's deeds, or words.

That is the reason for which Islamic countries have fallen behind the Western societies, with human development. Had it not been for the oil, who knows, Muslims in ME would further behind.

Its not possible to discuss with you about Islam in a pragmatic, constructive and neutral way. You are too much influenced by Israeli nationalism to conduct such a discussion.

hmmmmm. with type of replies you make (blame Arabs & Muslims ills, & failure solely on Israel), of course you won't have "rational" conversation with me. I have seen them all from first hand experience - you seem to have got you schooling on the Arab-Israeli conflict from CNN, BBC, or PressTV, or Al-Arbiya networks.

[eSHaHeEN]

FEAR is the only motivation which keeps Muslim in-line - not necessarily religious conviction. Why the need to kill any Muslim who questions Muhamad? you tell me!!!!

Then why do native Germans come up to me and ask me how to become muslim. Out of fear?

hmmmmm. with type of replies you make (blame Arabs & Muslims ills, & failure solely on Israel), of course you won't have "rational" conversation with me. I have seen them all from first hand experience - you seem to have got you schooling on the Arab-Israeli conflict from CNN, BBC, or PressTV, or Al-Arbiya networks.

No I got my views from Zionist news. Why dont you just go to the streets and chant "kill the arabs" "kill the arabs"? Obviously you jews are morally superior so you can kill and expel as many arabs as you like.

[Hombre]

eshaheen writes:

Just remind yourself for a moment about the women you grew up with and now tell me honestly wether any of these girls and women could possibly lead a group of people.

I can't believe reading this rubbish. You live in the 7th century mister. Here is the list for you.
Indira Gandi (India) .
Benazir Bhutto (Pakistan),
Golda Meir (Israel),
Sirimavo Bandaranaike (cylon)
Margeret Thacher (GBR)

They all were 100% women, wives and good mothers.

The rest of the list you can go here and read it for yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... _ministers

[Hombre]

Then why do native Germans come up to me and ask me how to become muslim. Out of fear?

Yeah, those German, British, or French who convert into Islam, are the ill educated, street thugs, who are influence by the privileges Islam provides them, compared to woman. Judea & Christianity demand far more individual responsibility & discipline from its man, then Islam does, where man is king. They find phrases "wife must obey her husband" & "Husband can beat his wife if she does not obey him" pretty enticing indeed.

The same is true in US. Most (if not all) are blacks in prison, easy target for Muslim clerics to convince them, that Christianity is "white man's" religion, and Islam is their true religion.

No I got my views from Zionist news. Why dont you just go to the streets and chant "kill the arabs" "kill the arabs"? Obviously you jews are morally superior so you can kill and expel as many arabs as you like.

In 1948, Arabs left no choice to Israelis. Arab ultimatum was. "Only one of us stay here. either us, or you - not both". facing certain death, Israeli said, "it better be us". the fact is. those Arabs who chose to remain in their homes and land, they never lost their land,nor were expelled. today, they make up 20% of Israeli populations, and have a highly respected judge on Israeli supreme court. A former member of cabinet, and 10 members in the Knesset. Some of whom stand on the podium and call for removal of Israel with impunity. Others who did listen to their leaders to leave, they are the one who languish in concentration camps throughout the Arab states.

Otherwise, Most Israelis including myself, shun, and condemn those extreme right wing groups driven by religious conviction, who shout "kill Arabs". Maybe they are responding to Pals same call to kill Jews.

"Rocks & trees telling believers, there is a XXX hiding behind me, come and kill him".
This garbage is enshrined in the Quran, calling to kill Jews - neither in the Hebrew Bible, nor in New Testament calls to kill Muslims where ever find them. Besides, whom the hell these days, teaches his children to talk to trees and rocks? . Only backwards.

[eSHaHeEN]

Gandhi and Bhutto got the position because they were related to famous leaders.
Golda Meir almost got Israel destroyed during the Yom-Kippur war. The Jordanian king TOLD HER that Syria and Egypt are going to attack and she doesnt even ask "when?"
I dont know who Bandaranaike is.
And Margeret Thacher is more a man than a woman. you can ask an english miner what he thinks of her.

Oh and before you mention Angela Merkel. Angela Merkel only got that position because Helmut Kohl bullied everybody out of the party who did not submit to his dominance. She was the only one left to take the position.
She has no children and has been divorced three times.
Recently some democracies can afford to have women in leading positions. But this has to do with the role of politicians in general who have been deprived of their power. These days politcians are more messengers of the state than decision-makers. they dont have any share in the political decision. neither do the voters. this why we get the same policy every 4 years no matter what we vote for.

There are various areas where western culture can serve as a role model. However female leadership did not make western culture successful. and it does neither do that in china nor in russia nor anywhere else in the world. Say what you want I stay with my opinion. the future will show that I was right about that.

[eSHaHeEN]

Yeah, those German, British, or French who convert into Islam, are the ill educated, street thugs, who are influence by the privileges Islam provides them, compared to woman. Judea & Christianity demand far more individual responsibility & discipline from its man, then Islam does, where man is king. They find phrases "wife must obey her husband" & "Husband can beat his wife if she does not obey him" pretty enticing indeed.

Really? You can google Marcel Krass if you like. Hes a german engineer who turned muslim. I find it funny how some jews these days praise the judeo-christian culture when a couple of decades ago judeo-christian culture was putting jews into ovens.

In 1948, Arabs left no choice to Israelis. Arab ultimatum was. "Only one of us stay here. either us, or you - not both". facing certain death, Israeli said, "it better be us". the fact is. those Arabs who chose to remain in their homes and land, they never lost their land,nor were expelled. today, they make up 20% of Israeli populations, and have a highly respected judge on Israeli supreme court.

Somebody comes into your country and establishes a state, because his ancestors allegedly were there 3000 years ago. What do you expect? Of course people show resistance.

Hey man lets end this discussion. I didnt come here to support or fight a zionist who regards Islam as part of the enemy. Wish you a good life sir.

[Hombre]

Gandhi and Bhutto got the position because they were related to famous leaders.
Golda Meir almost got Israel destroyed during the Yom-Kippur war. The Jordanian king TOLD HER that Syria and Egypt are going to attack and she doesnt even ask "when?"
I dont know who Bandaranaike is.
And Margeret Thacher is more a man than a woman. you can ask an english miner what he thinks of her.

Oh and before you mention Angela Merkel. Angela Merkel only got that position because Helmut Kohl bullied everybody out of the party who did not submit to his dominance. She was the only one left to take the position.
She has no children and has been divorced three times.
Recently some democracies can afford to have women in leading positions. But this has to do with the role of politicians in general who have been deprived of their power. These days politcians are more messengers of the state than decision-makers. they dont have any share in the political decision. neither do the voters. this why we get the same policy every 4 years no matter what we vote for.

There are various areas where western culture can serve as a role model. However female leadership did not make western culture successful. and it does neither do that in china nor in russia nor anywhere else in the world. Say what you want I stay with my opinion. the future will show that I was right about that.

I know all about Yom Kipur war. You have no clue what really happened there. Otherwise, Agha eshaheen. I hope you understand the following. kosse' sheriata be-zar kennar. your are funny with strange sense of humor. Excuses excuses. Who cares how they got there in the first place. The LEAD their nations with distinction, for which most were re-elected by open and democratic vote. For whatever reasons, you have innet bias against woman, in your book, they are breeding & breading (food) machines. their place is in the kitchen & the bedroom - "obeying" their husband whatever he wishes.

[Hombre]

Really? You can google Marcel Krass if you like. Hes a german engineer who turned muslim. I find it funny how some jews these days praise the judeo-christian culture when a couple of decades ago judeo-christian culture was putting jews into ovens.

That the thing. Christians are intelligent enough to overcome their blind hatred, and reconcile their bloody past with Jews. It was the head of the Catholic church, who absolved Jews for the death of Jesus. And Jews are intelligent and forward looking enough to forgive - though both do not forget, When blind hatred go unabated, you do get people in the oven, whether through real oven or suicide bombing of innocent people.

We are still waiting for Muslims to follow suit, and recognize the fact, Jews were in the region, long before Islam was founded. Jews never ever severed their connections, nor continued presence in today's Israel. If Muslims are taught Judaism (and Christianity) are fake religions, and need to be eradicated, by force, and replaced by Islam - that is THEIR PROBLEM, not others. You hate, you get your ass kicked. Time to reconcile. time to see the glass half full. Many other societies who face far more atrocities and tragedies in the past, all had lifted themselves up, extended their hand in peace with their former enemies, and build themselves new and prosperous lives. Germany vs. Israel, Europe & U.S. Japan & rest of its neighbors and US.
Muslims are still bent on revenge, and hollow and useless ego, which only the death of the other side bring satisfaction. Honor killing is practiced only by Muslims - not others.

Somebody comes into your country and establishes a state, because his ancestors allegedly were there 3000 years ago. What do you expect? Of course people show resistance.

Hey man lets end this discussion. I didnt come here to support or fight a zionist who regards Islam as part of the enemy. Wish you a good life sir.

NO ONE came to Arabs country, Jews had lived there since 1500 BC. In fact is was the ancestors of today's Iran who help Jews to return to their homeland in Jerusalem. So why the hell Iranians are against Jews returning the 2nd time to the same homeland, is beyond me, beside islam which instruct them to hate Jews.
Jews have the same right to live in peace & sovereign as others. Islam is not part of the enemy, It is the anti-semitic doctrine written in the Quran, which pushed innocent Muslims to hate Jews.

Yeah, I have noticed, when others here face you with strong argument opposing your views, you resort to same tactic "I did not come here to argue about"

[eSHaHeEN]

I dont understand what you say. Im no Iranian, no Pakistani and no Afghani.

As far as I know Quran also says something like "the one who is best towards his women is the best muslim"

Some people in here are exagerating the role of Islam, Mohamed and Quran. By doing that they actually assume the same position like the islamic fanatics just from the other side.
It seems like one side of the coin demonizes the other side glorifies Mohamed. Both transfer an amount of importance to this person which is simply completely over the top.

I hope one day people might develop a more humanist approach to Islam and Quran and Mohamed and put this whole stuff where it belongs to - sorry if I repeat myself - in the corner
of history. There is nothing wrong with celebrating some tradition, but nobody should either get stuck in this stuff for too long or should give too much importance to religion in
general. No demonization, no glorification, no cutting roots with history but reconciliation of past and present and pragmatism is what people of muslim countries need these days.

People like Frankie, who say you cant have that approach without leaving Islam not only resemble the fanatics who exclude anybody from Islam who does not share their fanatic
view on the world, they also ignore the reality that most muslims already are applying this route I am proposing - without admitting it.

[eSHaHeEN]

NO ONE came to Arabs country, Jews had lived there since 1500 BC. In fact is was the ancestors of today's Iran who help Jews to return to their homeland in Jerusalem. So why the hell Iranians are against Jews returning the 2nd time to the same homeland, is beyond me, beside islam which instruct them to hate Jews.
Jews have the same right to live in peace & sovereign as others. Islam is not part of the enemy, It is the anti-semitic doctrine written in the Quran, which pushed innocent Muslims to hate Jews.

Yeah, I have noticed, when others here face you with strong argument opposing your views, you resort to same tactic "I did not come here to argue about"

Might be that Israel existed before Islam. But it was also destroyed before Islam. And Islam was not responsible for that.
Other than that there were non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine even before the Jews were there. The state of Canaan is mentioned in your Tora.
The whole population of palestine consisting of people of greek, roman, phoenician, sumerian, ancient egyptian, hurrite and amurrite heritage was not eradicated
and replaced with one blow when arabs conquered the area in 7-8th century AD.
You cant just expel people because you say your ancestor was there 3000 years ago. This is insane.

However I already said I dont want to talk about Zionism or Judaism or compare wether Jesus or Mohamed was morally superior. Please dont draw me into an argument anymore. And please stay out of the discussion because this forum is for "muslims and ex-muslims only" and not for
"Zionists who have a problem with Islam". Why am I even talking to you? I wish some (ex-)muslims would join the discussion.

[Hombre]

Then why do you call Israelis "zioniats"?. why not "Jews" & "Israelis". that would be more appropriate and render you as civilized, with hate free individual - no?

As for Ex-Muslims here. In fact, one time I was tempted to convert to Islam. but first, I post these questions, and no decent Muslims could reply. Maybe you can. Who knows? you may convince me after all.

That it! I no longer able to resist the temptation and wonderful privileges, with little accountability, to which Islam will provide me as a men. What else can you ask Allah? & his prophet? 4 wives to please me every night. Who would want to resist these privileged life?

But first, I need few questions clarified, before I plunge into that worm and fuzzy bed of “1000 Arabian nights” of Islam.

* Am I going to enjoy the freedom to engage in an open, constructive, and free dialog about Islam, much like non-Muslims do with their respective religions.
If I do, will I be accused of blasphemy, and face beheading,?

* With lowest education per capita among Arab-Islamic populations.
Will my children be attending universities to learn Architecture & Engineering, to erect buildings, and machinery. Or purveyors of Car bombs & suicide bombers.

* I have been taught that, freedom, of expression and one's thoughts, are fundamentals to human endeavor.
Will I be told by my Muslim clergy, these attributes are “Anti-Islamic”.

* My beautiful daughter had just turned 8 years old.
Will I be expected to pledge her to marry her cousin when she turns 11 years old? Or, will she be forced to marry one of my 55 year old relatives as his 4th wife?

* My teenage daughter did what every young adult of her age does naturally around the world. She fell in love with her high school sweetheart. Recently, she was seen holding hand with her boyfriend. As I am told, an act forbidden by Allah.
Will I be expected to put the family honour ahead of my own daughter's life. Look the other way, when my wife pins her down, while one of my sons chocks my own flesh and blood daughter to death, while she is asleep

* The fact is, Islamic countries publish the lowest number of books per capita then anywhere else.
Will I be allowed to read literature published by the infidels, to expand my intellectual horizon, without being accused as "traitor to my religion" ?.
Or will I be told. “No need for Math or Science books. Qur'an is the perfect book, where you get ALL your knowledge from".

* Mosques are said to be places of inspiration, enlightenment, and solitude with Allah.
Will I hear from my clergy, about the inferiority of Judaism and Christianity, whom, Allah commands me to hate ?

* Speaking of “inferiority of the non-believers” .
Will I be expected to treat Jewish or Christian members of my own family, also as “inferiors“?

* Interacting with Jews.
Whom should I listen to? A wise and intelligent Jewish professionals, about mine and my family's lives?. Or the trees and rocks, telling me to kill them?.

* While in the Mosque, are my children going to learn about the beauty and sanctity of life, or the glory of death, by homicide bombing of innocent people. Because MY ALLAH, commands us so.

* On the way home, after Friday payers.
Am I going to be forced to watch a frail woman, being stoned to death in the city center, because she was raped by her Brother-in Law, and became pregnant. Killed, only to save the family honour, while the rapist is never charged of any crimes.

* Am I going to see, and hear on the daily evening news, or commentaries on Arab TV that, all our social, educational & economical ills, are the fault of the Americans & Jews?. With no offer of self accountability for ones own actions and deeds.

* Am I going to be told by my Imam, to marry more wives, and have 24 - 30 children. Not worrying about how to feed, dress and educate them. Because - Allah will do it for me.

* After all, countries throughout the Middle East, have had rich history, own distinct cultural, and languages, other then Arabic, long Before Islam was introduced.
Will I be able to explore those pre-Islamic eras, to know more about myself. Or will I be told. Islam is your past, present & the future.

* I am told. The Books of Hebrew Bible, and New Testament, were corrupted to hide the incoming of Mohammad 1000 years in the future.
Would I be allowed to ask my Imam – where is the evidence to that effect?. Or be forbidden to ask the same question of the Quran's own authenticity?

Once I received answers to these question, then I will consider to convert.

[skynightblaze]

Yes women can lead not just a handful of people but even huge MNC's. Women have matched men in almost all the aspects.

No they havent. And they never will unless they become men. Maybe youre too young or unexperienced to see that.
Im not saying there are no exceptions from the rule. Aisha led an army of 10,000 fighters and a lot of Muslim countries had Muslim female leaders much earlier than their western counterparts by the way.
However Im talking about majority. The majority of women is not able to lead a group of people.
Female personality is not acquired, it is hereditary. And theyre not taking the lead because theyre supressed by men but because they
simply dont want to take the lead. If I have the choice to trust my eyes or YOU and YOUR "dumba55" studies, I think I rather trust my eyes.

EDIT: some companies employ women as leaders for certain reasons. Because of marketing, power reasons or to fulfill a certain quota. The number of 5-6 % is not very high anyway.

Your prophet has still proven himself to be a dumb ass. Here are his words ..

(Bukhari vl.5, pg.136, Bukhari vl. 4 Page 97, Nisai vl. 8 Page 227, Tirmidhi vl. 5 Page 457)
"A nation that has entrusted its affairs to a woman can never be successful."

Sahih Bukhari 9:88:219
Narrated Abu Bakra: During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."


Note what he says .. A nation can NEVER be successful where women are rulers. He did not say there can be exceptions and he is denying the efficiency of women TOTALLY. His statement is false and insulting to women all over the world to say the least. Indira Gandhi and Bhutto and even German chancellor Angela Merkel are examples where women have successfully run the nation.You are not denying exceptions in women but your prophet did.

Now you say that majority of women are not able to lead the group and that the percentage of women leading is only 5-6%. What you forget to note here is that the percentage of 5 to 6 is only BECAUSE men and women are TREATED EQUAL. That number would be close to zero if we followed islamic law. If you check out the list that I gave you, none of the names seem to be of women following islam. I guess one can easily see the difference and see which system is superior. Which system is superior- the one that produces 5 to 6 % women as leaders or the system that produces zero leaders? Even comparison of statistics will show you that the notion of men and women being equal is better as it produces more efficient results.

Secondly I do agree that the percentage is low if you look at the whole picture but these are current statistics. How do you know that this number would not scale up in the future? 50 years back the number of women leading would not even be close to 1% but the scenario has changed and it is only because of granting equal opportunities to women to prove their worth. It will keep changing in the future once we get rid of stupid notions like women being sub human or inferior.

Thirdly, we also need to look at the impact of having 5-6% as women leaders. What if these 5 to 6% women leaders are changing the world? That percentage would be small but yet the impact would be huge.

[frankie]

eSHaHeEN:

Some people in here are exagerating the role of Islam, Mohamed and Quran.

It is Muslims who are doing this, as they believe Islam to be the "one true religion "which should be "proclaimed over all religion "following the words and actions of their (false)prophet who said:

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

As far as I know Quran also says something like "the one who is best towards his women is the best muslim"

The Quran also says women are men's tilth, who can be beaten into submission.Quran 2.223 & 4.34

As pointed out to you, Mohammed was a product of his time, he proved himself time and again NOT to be a true prophet of any god, especially not a prophet of the God of the Bible whom he claimed to represent.

Mohammed legitimised wife beating for all time.

Physical abuse of another human being is an evil act. Any true prophet of an all knowing, compassionate god would know this, and therefore would not advocate and condone such evil acts upon his fellow humans.

Evidence of Mohammed's brutality towards women is well documented in the sahih hadiths, which in turn eternally legitimises domestic abuse, as well as an eternally misogynistic mind-set towards women.

http://www.salahtimes.com/hadiths/sunan ... 88%92nikah)/2142

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab


Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran ... eating.htm

And you call me a "fanatic?"