The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

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sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your question is too vague and can be understood in different ways. I understand that English is not your first language and so you will have to accept my reply unless you post again in a more understandable way.

sum

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pr126
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by pr126 »

The OP:
what's the point/aim of abiogenesis & so on evolution? :sml:
rephrased OP:

I want to argue your unproven science against my religious dogma.

First shot from Garudaman:
what do you mean by scientific? abiogenesis hasn't been proven scientifically, you know! :wot:
and so on for the next 12 pages.
Do carry on.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your question is too vague and can be understood in different ways. I understand that English is not your first language and so you will have to accept my reply unless you post again in a more understandable way.

sum
you said, that the point of evolution, is about survive of species/existence, right? what's the point of survive species/existence, if/when we extinct, we can always start/repeat it again (re-abiogenesis/re-evolution)?

;)

sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
you said, that the point of evolution, is about survive of species/existence, right? what's the point of survive species/existence, if/when we extinct, we can always start/repeat it again (re-abiogenesis/re-evolution)?

Everything is chance. Survival of the fittest is chance creating more successful organisms. There is no purpose in life. It is simply evolution.

There is absolutely no certainty that if we all became extinct that evolution would lead to the human race evolving once again.

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Everything is chance. Survival of the fittest is chance creating more successful organisms. There is no purpose in life. It is simply evolution.
if there's no which need to be maintained, then of course there's no needs of survival, right? but there's survival mechanism on evolution, so certainly evolution is intended to maintain something!
sum wrote:There is absolutely no certainty that if we all became extinct that evolution would lead to the human race evolving once again.
why not? theoretically, as long there's still tree, human evolution is always possible, right? http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/07/19/r ... pinet.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:ermm:

sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
if there's no which need to be maintained, then of course there's no needs of survival, right?

It is not a case of need at all. It just happens. Do you agree?

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:It is not a case of need at all. It just happens.
it does look like that, but from what I learned, there are things that looks don't needed but actually needed, such blind gene & albino gene, those all needed for dark place!

:ermm:

sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

I think that the word "need" is confusing matters. Nature, evolution and Darwinism are totally indifferent to survival. It all just happens as there is no background higher force guiding matters. If something would survive better in certain circumstances then it will and is Darwinism in practice. If circumstances change then those organisms that can cope will survive while those that can not cope will fade away. It is all without any divine influence. If you look closely at all natural events you will conclude that it all just happens. There will be a cause and there will be a cause for the cause and it can all be traced back to the very beginning. It is like tracing your family history.

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:I think that the word "need" is confusing matters.
you can replace it with "purpose" or "reason", then!
sum wrote:Nature, evolution and Darwinism are totally indifferent to survival. If something would survive better in certain circumstances then it will and is Darwinism in practice. If circumstances change then those organisms that can cope will survive while those that can not cope will fade away.
yeah I know, but they always cope/survive when/if the circumstance is possible, right?
sum wrote:It all just happens as there is no background higher force guiding matters. It is all without any divine influence.
how about matter influence?
sum wrote:There will be a cause and there will be a cause for the cause and it can all be traced back to the very beginning. It is like tracing your family history.
yeah, this thread basically meant to discuss about that! what's the point of life/evolution? why/what's the reason life/evolution should be maintained/survived? (because as we know, it's looks pointless/no purpose)

:)

sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

There is no natural point in life or evolution. It is all simply a natural process that follows the "laws of nature". I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) that Islam teaches that there must be a point in life if only to make more plausible the existence of a higher being - a god - who has laid down laws for mankind.

I agree that some things "need" certain conditions to survive but nature does not care one way or the other about this. All is left, Darwin style, for matters to evolve as circumstances allow or die if "needs" are not met. Nature is totally indifferent.

Any point in life is for each individual to decide for himself. All divine entities are man made and indoctrinated into the people in order to create a system of order in society. How may gods are there? Many. How can you decide which, if any, are likely to exist?

Are the gods of the Jews, Christians and Islam all exactly the same with exactly the same teaching? I do not think so. What do you think?

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:There is no natural point in life or evolution. It is all simply a natural process that follows the "laws of nature".
like other law, the law of nature requires those who obey it (the matters that can process each other), which originated/evolved from those who don't obey it : http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleade ... -particle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
sum wrote:I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) that Islam teaches that there must be a point in life if only to make more plausible the existence of a higher being - a god - who has laid down laws for mankind.
an idea/possibility which is worth to consider, considering that the evolution seems don't have any benefit except for more-valuable/functional existence!
sum wrote:I agree that some things "need" certain conditions to survive but nature does not care one way or the other about this. All is left, Darwin style, for matters to evolve as circumstances allow or die if "needs" are not met. Nature is totally indifferent.
the problem is, why they want to survive? why they should do/try to survive?
sum wrote:Any point in life is for each individual to decide for himself.
the problem is, what/which that should be decided/choosed!
sum wrote:All divine entities are man made and indoctrinated into the people in order to create a system of order in society.
unless humans indeed evolve for more-valuable existence in front of God!
sum wrote:How may gods are there? Many. How can you decide which, if any, are likely to exist?

Are the gods of the Jews, Christians and Islam all exactly the same with exactly the same teaching? I do not think so. What do you think?
if God truly exist, then there's only one God, which is that teaches the most true teaching!

;)

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pr126
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by pr126 »

If god truly exist? You have doubts?
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.


sum
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
like other law, the law of nature requires those who obey it (the matters that can process each other), which originated/evolved from those who don't obey it

Nothing can disobey the laws of nature. All actions, reactions and evolution follow the laws of nature as there is no other influence that contradicts the laws of nature. Even your brain follows the laws of nature ie can only function according to its Islamic programming.

Evolution is survival of the fittest. Nature does not care one iota how things work and is totally indifferent to what happens.

Your quote -
the problem is, why they want to survive?

Matter does not "want". Regarding the "want" of living matter please read "The Selfish Gene".

Your quote -
unless humans indeed evolve for more-valuable existence in front of God!

You are assuming that God exists. This is programmed into your brain and, being a muslim, dare not consider that Allah might not exist. If one follows the Golden Rule then there is no need for Muhammad`s created God, Allah, as mankind can progress much better without Allah or Muhammad.

There is only one person who is recorded as allegedly performing miracles and therefore defying the laws of nature - Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus performed miracles?

sum

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manfred
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by manfred »

garudaman there something about evolution as a theory you seem to not fully appreciate:

it does not presume PURPOSE at all

For example we don't have hands IN ORDER to hold things/carry things.

Evolution says it is much simpler: Imagine some animals use their forelimbs to manipulate food and things like that. If by some chance one particular animal developed a little longer digits, then this would be an advantage to the animal. So it possibly has a greater chance to live longer and reproduce. If it did, its descendants will also have this feature, and gradually "long digits" is "selected" over time. Eventually hand-like paws may develop, if the help the animal. An opposing thumb may develop in the same way, but not purposefully, just by chance, and if the animal FINDS A USE FOR THAT, it may prove an advantage again.

If we follow this through, then we have to admit something quite scare: there is no proof that intelligence is a evolutionary advantage in every situation. Maybe when humans die out, cockroaches will be the dominant species.

So, garudaman, in short, there simply is no "purpose" in evolution. We don't "purposefully" have hands with a thumb. we eventually got them because there was some survival value in appendages like that.

Other things have developed and retained without having a positive advantage, but also don't cause problems: eyebrows perhaps.

That is what it means.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Nothing can disobey the laws of nature. All actions, reactions and evolution follow the laws of nature as there is no other influence that contradicts the laws of nature. Even your brain follows the laws of nature ie can only function according to its Islamic programming.

Evolution is survival of the fittest. Nature does not care one iota how things work and is totally indifferent to what happens.
you think, which appeared first, the law of gravity, or mass that have gravity?
sum wrote:Your quote -
the problem is, why they want to survive?

Matter does not "want". Regarding the "want" of living matter please read "The Selfish Gene".
this is what you suggest me to read : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
molecule which first managed to reproduce itself and thus gained an advantage over other molecules within the primordial soup.
the matter that can manage something!

:lotpot:

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Garudaman
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:If we follow this through, then we have to admit something quite scare: there is no proof that intelligence is a evolutionary advantage in every situation. Maybe when humans die out, cockroaches will be the dominant species.
see? that's what I mean, if just simple living creature is enough for survival purpose, then why intelligent creature is needed? ;)

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manfred
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by manfred »

intelligence obviously had in the past and has now a survival value, but there is no guarantee that it always will.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"


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manfred
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Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

Post by manfred »

intelligence is one of the most recent traits that have evolved.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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