Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Does God exist? Is Allah God? Creation vs. evolution.
Is Religion needed? Logic vs. faith. Morality and ethics.
Nosuperstition
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:45 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

Wootah wrote:I have to agree with Yohan. Why are Hindus and Buddhists still so desperate for Western validation?

The only benefit of Hinduism and Buddhism for Mr Dawkins is that they aren't Christian. It's just more self abusing from within the Western culture. We are already reaping the horrible results of Hinduism and Buddhism in the West ... I just watched eat, pray, love.
tejpat wrote:I believe "Yohan" didn't hear of Apostasy. maybe becoz he was taught in Jesus camp that anyone who believes other than "YHWH" ,he/she should be killed. Dear "Yohan" there are people in the world who don't believe in your Biblical God, they are called Atheists.
It's worth quoting what you said. I find it hard to believe one can be an atheist of other religions. They contain far too much stupid. Let me add as well that within Christianity we have actual historical events that either you believe occurred or did not. It explains again why science came from the West and why atheism comes from the West. If you don't believe in those actual historical events then you are left believing that a loving God does not exist. Atheism is only possible because of the logical surety of Christianity. When you reject a loving God you really are rejecting God in toto.

An atheist is simply someone who threw out the baby with the bathwater. But as we are observing, having abandoned Christianity, superstition and related nonsense rise back in the West. And why be surprised. We are made to worship and worship we shall, whether that is God or a statue or money or celebrities or spirits or global consciousness or gaia.
You too sound like Balls when he said that when Hindus were under yoke of Islam,they were moral and when were let it off,it they became immoral.And as far as atheism is concerned,of six major Hindu schools of thought only one or two were theist and the rest were atheist.It is just that atheism was allowed to permeate to a greater extent amongst the masses post World War 2.The East is neither new nor unaware to either Atheism or logic.As diotima4 observed even muslims are intelligent because they too are afterall humans.

After 9/11 and after getting hit hard in Iraq and Afghanistan,they refrained from further major attacks.Shows that they too are capable of understanding logic.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:45 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

Now if Christians no longer are burning heretics and worshippers of other gods as per recommendations made by the Bible it is due to secularism and education.If no of suttees in Hindus has come down significantly (from a few hundred every year during British rule to one or two per year right now),it is also due to secularism.The day secularism disappears,these trends are likely to get revived.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

har777
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:24 pm

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by har777 »

Wootah wrote:
Sten wrote:
Wootah wrote:The only benefit of Hinduism and Buddhism for Mr Dawkins is that they aren't Christian.
Not at all. Hinduism and Buddism don't teach that unbelievers will be tortured for eternity, for example.
How is not knowing about hell a benefit, here and now or in the hereafter?
How is teaching that life is an illusion a benefit?
How is it that science did not come from cultures with these religions?
they do not do this
Encounter at Pondicherry
The following account of what the Christians did to Hindus in Pondicherry has been taken from the Diary maintained by Anand Ranga Pillai, scion of a Tamil merchant family from Madras. His family along with several others had migrated to Pondicherry at the invitation of the French who occupied that town as the headquarters of their possessions in India. These families had brought considerable prosperity to it. Pillai was appointed Chief Dubash towards the end of 1747, five years after M. Dupleix became the Governor of Pondicherry. He held the post till 1756, two years after Dupleix's departure. He had, however, kept an account of what he saw and heard since September 1736. His Diary which was written in Tamil continued till 1761 when he died.

The editor of the translation in English writes as follows regarding the treatment of Hindus in Pondicherry: The religious policy pursued in the early part of the century at Pondicherry is remarkable. It appears to have been ordered that no temple should be repaired; Nainiyappau was ordered to be converted within six months under pain of losing his post as Chief Dubash; Hindu festivals were prohibited on Sundays and the principal Christian feasts; even when these regulations had caused the greater part of the town to be deserted, the Jesuits urged that a temple should be pulled down instead of conciliatory measures being employed. (Registre des deliberations du Conseil Souverin, i, pp.125, 140, 142, 153 etc. This valuable collection of documents is being printed by the Societe di 1Histoire de 1Inde Francaise at Pondicherry.) It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that in this zealous proselytising policy lies one reason why Pondicherry was far inferior to Madras as a commercial centre; and perhaps the same cause also contributed to the absolute failure of Dupleix efforts to induce the Madras merchants to settle under the French.

The Vedapuri Iswaran Temple was the principal place of worship for the Hindus of Pondicherry. The Jesuit missionaries built the Church of St. Paul adjacent to it and obtained an order from the King of France that the Hindu temple should be destroyed. It could not be done due to strong resistance from the Hindus who constituted the most important native community in the town. Pillai gives an account of how the temple was desecrated repeatedly by the Jesuits and finally destroyed with active help from the French establishment, particularly Madame Dupleix.

The first incident at the Vedapuri Temple took place on March 17, 1746. On Wednesday night at 11, writes Pillai, two unknown persons entered the Iswaran temple carrying in a vessel of liquid filth, which they poured on the heads of the gods around the altar, and into the temple, through the drain of the shrine of Iswaran; and having broken the pot of dirt on the image of the god Nandi, they went away through apart of the building which had been demolished. Early this morning, when the Nambiyan and the servants of the temple, opening the main gate, entered, and saw the nuisance which had been committed, they at once reported the matter to their superiors, and to the Mahanattars; and bringing them to the spot, showed them what had been done.

As the report of this sacrilege spread, Hindus, from the Brahman to the pariah, held a public meeting. The Governor, Dupleix, when he heard of it, sent his chief peon to disperse the meeting. The peon struck a Chetti on the cheek and ordered the people to go away. The people, however, defied the order and protested, You better kill us all.

When this resistance was reported to the Governor, he sent for some Hindu leaders. He reprimanded them but promised to settle the matter in consulation with Pillai who was present. No sooner,continues Pillai, had the Mahanattars departed than from 100 to 200 Muhammadans of Mahe appeared before the Governor, for the purpose of shooting them [the Hindus]. As prior to the arrival of these, the Mahanattars had consented to a settlement, he directed the Muhammadans to guard the four gates, so that they could not go out. They obeyed this order. All this took place before 4 this afternoon. What will occur hereafter is not known. He does not record what settlement, if any, was arrived at.

The next incident recorded by Pillai took place on December 31, 1746. It was reported, he writes, to-night at 7, that an earthen jar, filled with filth, was thrown from within the grounds of the Church of St. Paul, into the temple of Vedapuri Iswaran. It very nearly fell on the head of Sankara Aiyan, who was at the shrine of the god Pillaiyar, on his way round the temple, in the performance of religious duties. When the jar struck the ground, and broke to pieces, the stench emitted was unbearable.

The outrage was reported to Pillai by ten men including some heads of castes. He made a representation to the Governor who deputed some councillors to inspect the place. But before the officials could start on their job, they were briefed privately by Madame Dupleix, the Governor's wife, who was in league with the priests of St. Paul. An inspection at the temple followed. The gentlemen, continues Pillai, then entered the temple, smelt the broken jar, pronounced that it had contained filth, and judging by the position of the scattered fragments, arrived at the decision that it must have been thrown from the church, and that there could be no mistake on that point.

But before a report could be submitted to the Governor, a member of the team insisted that the priests should be consulted. So the team went to the church and rang its bell. On hearing the sound, records Pillai, the senior priest, Father Coeurdoux, came out, and opening the door, asked the business that had brought them there. They then explained what had taken place. They remarked that, from the position of the pieces of the broken jar, and an examination of the ground about the temple and church, there could be no doubt that the direction from which the jar came was that of the latter. They also noticed that the stones at the base of the temple wall on the side of the church had all been pulled down. When those holding the investigation urged that this was not right, the priest exclaimed: It was not our doing. They, themselves, must have dug them out, with the view of lodging a complaint, and getting the wall, which is in a ruinous state, restored.

Finally, a report was made to the Governor that the complaint made was true, and that the priests of the Church of St. Paul were responsible.The Governor asked for a written report and exclaimed, I will not only write to France regarding this affair, but will also take such action with respect to it, that the priests of the Church of St. Paul will ever remember it. But he went to bed soon after and did not remember the matter when he rose next morning.

Pillai, however, brought it to his notice. The Governor told him that with a view to making the people of the Church of St. Paul smart for what they had done, he would consult with the members of the Council and take measures accordingly.9 Next, the Governor himself accompanied Pillai to the church in order to make further enquiries. The priests who used to be warm when meeting Pillai were now dead cold towards him, the reason being that they thought it was I who had brought the matter of the filth being thrown into the Vedapuri Iswaran temple, on the previous night, to the notice of the Governor, and had him to send the Councillors, to inquire regarding it.

The Governor agreed to meet the Mahanattars on January 5, 1747 and listen to their complaint about desecration of the temple. In the morning of that day, however, he asked Pillai to advise the Mahanattars not to raise the question of the temple when they met him. Pillai advised them accordingly and in private when they arrived. But in spite of my advice they began to do so and the Governor rose up, addressed a few kind words to them and went into his wife's room. That was the end of the matter so far as the second incident was concerned.

Pillai started functioning as the Chief Dubash when the earlier incumbent who was a native Christian and had held the post for 20 years, died on June 25, 1747. His formal appointment, however, was still in the future. The Jesuits became more and more hostile to him because they thought he was coming in the way of their demolition of the Hindu temple. The Governor had a low opinion of the Jesuits whom he regarded as deceitful people. But he was under pressure from Christians in the town and advised Pillai to meet the Superior in the Church of St. Paul and try to improve his relations with them.

The Superior who was no other than that criminal, Father Coeurdoux, asked Pillai to become a Christian when he met him on September 20, 1747. We all know, said Father Coeurdoux,that you belong to a respectable family that has been held in esteem for generations... But if you had been a Christian, many others would have become so too. Pillai was surprised and protested that he had always been impartial between Hindus and Christians. But the priest persisted, Say that you will, I am sure that all will become Christian if only you would set the example. We should be quite satisfied with you as Chief Dubash if you were a Christian. As you are not, we have had several times to urge M. Dupleix to appoint one. We have written to Europe, and we will write again. We shall do our utmost, we will speak in the Council, for we have got a letter from the King that the post must be reserved for Christians. He also asked Pillai to explain to the heads of castes the orders about the Vedapuri Iswaran temple, to which Pillai replied that he would spare no pains.

A man named Annapurna Ayyan came to Pillai on October 8 and reported, Louis Prakasan came and told me that the Karikal priest [Coeurdoux] wished to see me. When I went to him, he told me I was a good man, always did as they wished, and there was a favour I must promise them. I asked what it was that I could do. He said he had heard that you [Pillai] would do whatever I asked, and I was therefore to ask you to get the Vedapuri Iswaran Temple pulled down. I told him it was impossible, that you would never listen to me, and that, had it been possible, Kanakaraya Mudali15 would have got it done. The priest answered that he [Mudali] did not because he was a Christian and besides he was not so clever as you. He said you could persuade people with a thousand reasons, put your opponents to silence, and do as you pleased. If I explained the matter to you and got the temple removed, he promised they never would forget it so long as their church lasted. That is what he told me. Pillai laughed and said that they were always saying things like that. But he suspected that Ayyan had promised his [Pillai's] assistance to the priests.

The Jesuits succeeded in destroying the temple in September 1748 when Pondicherry was besieged by the British and the bulk of the Hindu population had moved out of the town. This morning, writes Pillai in his Diary for September 7, tents were pitched round St. Paul's Church, and two hundred soldiers and a hundred sepoys were quartered there. The Governor, M. Paradis and others went thither and desired that a mortar might be mounted there. But they asked that the Iswaran temple should be pulled down. I think the Governor may have arranged (through Madame) for their help in certain Europe matters; so, as this is a time of war, there was much talk, a council was held, and the priests were told that the Iswaran temple would be demolished. The Governor then went home.

Pillai was very unhappy when he heard the news, The Governor, he wrote,has dishonoured himself. Firstly, he has listened to his wife's words and allowed her to manage all affairs and give all orders... The priests of St. Paul's Church have been trying for the last fifty years to pull down the Vedapuri Iswaran temple; former Governors said that this was the country of the Tamils, that they would earn dishonour if they interfered with the temple, that the merchants would cease to come here, and that the town would decay; they even set aside the king's order to demolish the temple; and their glory shone like the sun. But the Governor listens to his wife and has ordered the temple to be destroyed, thereby adding shame to his dishonour,

The temple was now doomed to destruction. Yesterday, Pillai continued in his Diary of September 8, 200 soldiers, 60 or 70 troopers and sepoys were stationed at St. Paul's Church in view of the matter in hand. This morning, M. Gerbault (the Engineer), the priests with diggers, masons, coolies and others, 200 in all, with spades, pick-axes and whatever is needed to demolish walls, began to pull down the southern wall of the Vedapuri Iswaran temple and the out-houses. At once the temple managers, Brahmans and mendicants came and told me.

Pillai recollected how the Governor had been working to this end since his arrival. Before M. Dupleix, he observed, was made Governor, and when he was only a Councillor, all the Europeans and some Tamils used to say that if he became Governor, he would destroy the Iswaran temple. The saying has come to pass. Ever since his appointment, he has been seeking to do so, but he has had no opportunity. He tried to get Muttayya Pillai to do it in May or June 1743. But the latter would not consent, though the Governor threatened to cut his ears off and beat him publicly and even to hang him.

He reflected on the situation that had been deliberately created by the Governor, taking advantage of the British invasion. The Governor, he wrote, allowed the Brahmans to depart, because ten or twenty of them might be bold enough to suffer death, and because he suspected them of being spies; but he ordered that those who went should not be readmitted, thus taking advantage of the war to get rid of the Brahmans, though other caste people might return. So all, both men and women, had departed. Besides, he has posted soldiers to frighten away even fifty or a hundred persons, should so many come to speak on behalf of the Brahmans. The four gates of the Fort have been closed by reason of the troubles; and he has ordered the destruction of the temple. What can we do? There are not even ten of the heads of castes to assemble and speak. We can do nothing, because he has taken advantage of this time of war to accomplish his longstanding object and demolish the temple.

So Pillai advised the Brahmans that they could do nothing but remove the images and other things to the Kalahasti Iswaran temple. But they did not agree with him and said, We will speak to the Governor about it, and tell him that if he insists, some of us will die and none will care to remain here. He told them that the Governor had made up his mind, that he was not likely to listen to them, that the temple was already being demolished, and that the only thing that could be done was to save the images and other sacred articles. I heard just now, he said to them, that the southern wall and the out-houses had been pulled down, and that they were demolishing the Arthamantapam and Mahamantapam. Don't delay. Remember how blindly matters are being driven on. The St. Paul's priests will send the European soldiers, Coffrees, Topasses, and even their parish converts with clubs into the temple to carry away, break and damage all they can. If you complain, they will only beat you. So you will lose not only the temple, but also the articles, the images used in the festivals, the Pillaiyar and all the other images. Any one can do what he pleases here now, and there is no man to question him. Still worse is it in matters connected with our temples. By his wife's advice, M. Dupleix has accomplished what has been attempted in vain for the last fifty years. But now the time has come. I cannot describe the boundless joy of the St. Paul's priests, the Tamil and pariha converts, Madame Dupleix and M. Dupleix. In their delight, they will surely enter the temple, and will not depart, without breaking and trampling under foot the idols and destroying all they can. So go quickly and remove all the articles.

More news came in quick succession. Just then, proceeds Pillai, news was brought that Father Coeurdoux, the Superior of St. Paul's Church, had kicked the inner shrine with his foot, and had ordered the Coffrees to remove the doors, and the Christians to break the Vahanams. He now went to the Governor, hoping that the latter would himself mention the subject. But the Governor did not, as if he was unware of what was being done. Some ten heads of castes also arrived and salaamed the Governor. The Governor did not talk to them directly but asked Varlam, a native Christian, to find from them what they wanted. Varlam told him that they sought his permission to remove the articles from the temple which was being destroyed. The Governor gave them the permission but told the peons to beat and disperse the crowd.

The Governor's permission, however, served no purpose. Pillai records:

I heard that the priests of St. Paul's Church told the Coffrees, soldiers and pariahs to beat the heads of castes when they went to the temple to remove their articles. They were scarcely suffered to approach the temple, and when they were removing the Vahanams, shoulder-poles and temple documents, each man was beaten twenty or thirty times. It was with extreme difficulty that they rescued the idols used in the processions and the Pillaiyar.

Then Father Coeurdoux of Karikal came with a great hammer, kicked the lingam, broke it with his hammer, and ordered the Coffrees and the Europeans to break the images of Vishnu and the other gods. Madame went and told the priest that he might break the idols as he pleased. He answered that she had accomplished what had been impossible for fifty years, that she must be one of those Mahatmas who established this religion [Christianity] in old days, and that he would publish her fame throughout the world. So saying he dismissed them.

Then Varlam also kicked the great lingam nine or ten times with his sandals in the presence of Madame and priest, and spat on it, out of gladness, and hoping that the priest and Madame would regard him also as a Mahatma. Then he followed Madame. I can neither write nor describe what abominations were done in the temple. I know not what fruit they will reap. All the Tamils think that the end of the world has come. The priests, the Tamil Christians, the Governor and his wife are more delighted than they have ever been before, but they have not yet considered what will befall them infuture.

Pillai learnt later on that the temple had been levelled with the ground and that the whole people were troubled at heart.He reflected, The wise men will say that the glory of an image is as short-lived as human happiness. The temple was destined to remain glorious till now, but now has fallen.

this article is from voice of dharma and only for educational purposes

LCD
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

Nosuperstition wrote:Now if Christians no longer are burning heretics and worshippers of other gods as per recommendations made by the Bible it is due to secularism and education.If no of suttees in Hindus has come down significantly (from a few hundred every year during British rule to one or two per year right now),it is also due to secularism.The day secularism disappears,these trends are likely to get revived.
That does it. a. tHE hEBREWS were given a specific command to kill anything on the battlefield. Before the battle started, people had time to remove their children from the battlefield, unlike Muslims who let their children walk around with AK47's with their fathers so they can be cut down like their fathersz, and killed, the Hebrews kept their women and children out of the battle. This is an example of the purity and decency of the Hebrew God.

Secondly, the burning of Heretics happened 100's of years after the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, which doesn't make it excusable, but there is no open ended command to burn Heretics. NONE.


Under the Hebrew LAW Code, there's no open ended command to kill pagans--none.The only so called "Burning Line" revealed in the Deuteronomy which means law refers to a punishment/ investigation for Levite Priest's Wife.

Deuteronomy reveals that no Jew under the covenant is allowed to breach the covenant, which also refers to the law code or the commandments. IF A JEW, under the law Code of Ancient Isreal, breaches that Code, that Jew is subject to the penalty of the law, but there's not a single example of Deuteronomy or the Code being forced on a non jew.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

Intelligent lad
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Intelligent lad »

LCD wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:Now if Christians no longer are burning heretics and worshippers of other gods as per recommendations made by the Bible it is due to secularism and education.If no of suttees in Hindus has come down significantly (from a few hundred every year during British rule to one or two per year right now),it is also due to secularism.The day secularism disappears,these trends are likely to get revived.
That does it. a. tHE hEBREWS were given a specific command to kill anything on the battlefield. Before the battle started, people had time to remove their children from the battlefield, unlike Muslims who let their children walk around with AK47's with their fathers so they can be cut down like their fathersz, and killed, the Hebrews kept their women and children out of the battle. This is an example of the purity and decency of the Hebrew God.

Secondly, the burning of Heretics happened 100's of years after the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, which doesn't make it excusable, but there is no open ended command to burn Heretics. NONE.


Under the Hebrew LAW Code, there's no open ended command to kill pagans--none.The only so called "Burning Line" revealed in the Deuteronomy which means law refers to a punishment/ investigation for Levite Priest's Wife.

Deuteronomy reveals that no Jew under the covenant is allowed to breach the covenant, which also refers to the law code or the commandments. IF A JEW, under the law Code of Ancient Isreal, breaches that Code, that Jew is subject to the penalty of the law, but there's not a single example of Deuteronomy or the Code being forced on a non jew.

Being better than Islam doesn't make a religion good or true. Islam is the pinnacle of evil. Islam should not be what we compare our religions with. True religion is perfect.
http://agniveer.com/god-vedas-hinduism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Love Jihad against Hindu and Christian Girls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwUB5cS6YLU

LCD
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:31 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

Actually no, because you said in another post that you saw no difference. If you see no difference between them, then you must compare. You're kind of stupid in that regard.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

Nosuperstition
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:45 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

LCD wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:Now if Christians no longer are burning heretics and worshippers of other gods as per recommendations made by the Bible it is due to secularism and education.If no of suttees in Hindus has come down significantly (from a few hundred every year during British rule to one or two per year right now),it is also due to secularism.The day secularism disappears,these trends are likely to get revived.
That does it. a. tHE hEBREWS were given a specific command to kill anything on the battlefield. Before the battle started, people had time to remove their children from the battlefield, unlike Muslims who let their children walk around with AK47's with their fathers so they can be cut down like their fathersz, and killed, the Hebrews kept their women and children out of the battle. This is an example of the purity and decency of the Hebrew God.

Secondly, the burning of Heretics happened 100's of years after the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, which doesn't make it excusable, but there is no open ended command to burn Heretics. NONE.


Under the Hebrew LAW Code, there's no open ended command to kill pagans--none.The only so called "Burning Line" revealed in the Deuteronomy which means law refers to a punishment/ investigation for Levite Priest's Wife.


Deuteronomy reveals that no Jew under the covenant is allowed to breach the covenant, which also refers to the law code or the commandments. IF A JEW, under the law Code of Ancient Isreal, breaches that Code, that Jew is subject to the penalty of the law, but there's not a single example of Deuteronomy or the Code being forced on a non jew.
Well actually there are certain verses in NT which are historically understood as sanctioning heretic burnings.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14467&p=192491&hilit=tree#p192491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And burning line revealed in deutoronomy with regards to Levites does not refer to their wives but to their daughters .

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/21-9.htm

While there might not have existed verses for killing people who are pagan by birth and practice,if chosen people turn to paganism,the punishment once again involves burning.
If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Chemosh the Moabite god is said to receive extra strength when the besieged Moabite king sacrificed his son to him.This is no more different than Hindu gods not receiving food from sacrifices and thus becoming weak when demons obstruct offering of oblations.People of those periods fundamentally believed gods/God having human characteristics of strength or vigor renewal by offering of sacrifices,human or animal.

The burnt offering of Jepthah is another point to note in the O.T.

O.K lets leave all this,it seems muslims if given the opportunity would once again like to rule all of us.Let us concentrate on muslims.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

LCD
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:31 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

I'd love to concentate on muslims but hicks like yourself, will end up bashing Christianity and the Jews, because its what you do, and i'm oing to take apart the crap you wrote above.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

LCD
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:31 am

Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

Nosuperstition wrote:
Well actually there are certain verses in NT which are historically understood as sanctioning heretic burnings.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14467&p=192491&hilit=tree#p192491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Really, yes, so since this came out of Jesus's mouth why didn't the jews near him immediatly go and start killing people?

Such bull. This is not an open ended command, i don't care what Pope burned anyone based on what they thought this was a sanction for. Its BS and you know it. Funny how its part of a much larger passage and how only a pop could use one section of it to burn someone.


Matthew 7 (New International Version)

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Matthew 7
New International Version (NIV)
Judging Others

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.



And burning line revealed in deutoronomy with regards to Levites does not refer to their wives but to their daughters .

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/21-9.htm

While there might not have existed verses for killing people who are pagan by birth and practice,if chosen people turn to paganism,the punishment once again involves burning.
If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known),


Yep and I dealt directly with this cause it happens in "Isreal" under the law, and guess what, it doesn't say, go to Syria, go to Afghanistan. Go to Russia. does it, it says, under the towns of the law. Thanks for whining and ignoring what I said, as usual.

14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
And it also says inquire probe and investigate, which is part of the LAW CODE of a City governed by the LAW.
Thanks for ignoring as usual.
Chemosh the Moabite god is said to receive extra strength when the besieged Moabite king sacrificed his son to him.This is no more different than Hindu gods not receiving food from sacrifices and thus becoming weak when demons obstruct offering of oblations.People of those periods fundamentally believed gods/God having human characteristics of strength or vigor renewal by offering of sacrifices,human or animal.
I don't have to deal with Hindu Gods, I only have to deal with Jews and Christians. I don't have to deal with the burning of Animals, i only have to deal with the burning of people, Thanks for not lisstening as usual.
The burnt offering of
is another point to note in the O.T.

O.K lets leave all this,it seems muslims if given the opportunity would once again like to rule all of us.Let us concentrate on muslims.
Jepthah, is a lesson. Plain and Simple. It is not a sanctioned human sacrifice. God, in no way says "yes" to what Jepthah did or appears to do. It is all Jepthah, and people like you have no concept at all of what God Sanctions and God Blesses, and nowhere in that section does God say, "yes, i like that, kill your daughter."

Here are some important matters that people like you forget or skim over because it doesn't fit your "burning narrative."

Judges 11
3 So Jephthah fled from his brothers and settled in the land of Tob, where a gang of scoundrels gathered around him and followed him.
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
I don't know if you can actually read, God was already behind Jephthah, because he was being attacked, and then Jepthah is the one WHO DECIDED he didn't trust God to have his back, and that he could make a deal with god. DO WE SEE A SINGLE INSTANCE OF GOD SAYING, "GOOD idea?"

Last but definitely not least is verse 40.
From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

Who is the hero? Who is commemorated? The Daughter. She was good and meek, and she was a victim of her Father's stupidity. There's no commemoration of the Cheiftan who killed his daughter. And if it was sanctioned and thought as proper and right the tradtion would be to sacrifice a virgin each year, not commemorate her death and bravery.

The sooner people like yourself learn to read, the better.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

Really, yes, so since this came out of Jesus's mouth why didn't the jews near him immediatly go and start killing people?
Because Jews of those period were a subject populace of Rome and had to abide by those laws.Simple.Anyway Jews who remained Jews believed Jesus to be a sorcerer who learned magic from Egypt and were already baying for his blood.One more example of how bad fruits are to be treated.

Once you reach significant numbers you will begin to exert yourself.Fact I saw Biblical Telugu evangelicals describe idolatry as Satanic on T.V as they have attained significant numbers in A.P.Same goes for those Jews who followed Jesus.

Jephtah is neither elevated but nor is condemned for offering human sacrifice.God who spoke so many times to his chosen people could have easily stopped Jephtah's offering of a human sacrifice just as he did in case of Abraham.In another instance God punishes Israelites with famine as they do not sacrifice humans to another god as part of covenant.Shows that God of Bible was once a tribal god and anti-human sacrifice verses of later O.T are a result of Zoroastrian influence.

If a religion that is completely devoid of any reference for human sacrifice is to be chosen,it will be Islam I think as it is completely purged of this human sacrifice non-sense.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

LCD
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

God punishes Israelites with famine as they do not sacrifice humans to another god as part of covenant.Shows that God of Bible was once a tribal god and anti-human sacrifice verses of later O.T are a result of Zoroastrian influence.

If a religion that is completely devoid of any reference for human sacrifice is to be chosen,it will be Islam I think as it is completely purged of this human sacrifice non-sense.
okay, you drop a bombshell of a lie like the above, i need a chapter and a verse please.

Also, name a single other Human virgin sacrifice performed by a priest on an unwitting human in the OT or the NT, i mean it must be ripe with them, since God clearly asks for them all the time. Please, show me another.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

LCD wrote:
God punishes Israelites with famine as they do not sacrifice humans to another god as part of covenant.Shows that God of Bible was once a tribal god and anti-human sacrifice verses of later O.T are a result of Zoroastrian influence.

If a religion that is completely devoid of any reference for human sacrifice is to be chosen,it will be Islam I think as it is completely purged of this human sacrifice non-sense.
okay, you drop a bombshell of a lie like the above, i need a chapter and a verse please.

Also, name a single other Human virgin sacrifice performed by a priest on an unwitting human in the OT or the NT, i mean it must be ripe with them, since God clearly asks for them all the time. Please, show me another.
In 2 Samuel 21, David is king over Judah. A famine oppresses the land; King David learns that LORD God is punishIn 2 Samuel 21, David is king over Judah. A famine oppresses the land; King David learns that LORD God is punishing Israel for King Saul's sin (Saul attacked the Gibeonites in violation of Joshua's treaty Joshua 9:15). Therefore, in order to relieve the famine, David must appease the Gibeonites. On negotiation, the Gibeonites demand to be given seven descendants of Saul to be hanged "unto the LORD." David picks two of Saul's sons and five of Saul's grandsons. Coincidentally, the five grandsons are the children of Michal, the woman David had wanted to marry (see 1 Samuel 18:25). David gives these Israelites to the Gibeonites so the Gibeonites can hang them.
http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/br_3.html

Surely god of Gibeonites is not the god of Israelites?Is he?
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

LCD
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

I went to your stupid site:

LORD God did not explicitly request the hangings. But LORD God imposed an insufferable famine on the Israelites, LORD God named the Gibeonites as the people to be appeased, and the Gibeonites named the penalty. When it was done, LORD God apparently found the human sacrifice to be satisfactory: the chapter continues with accounts of battles, and the famine is not mentioned further. This sequence — an angry god causes a natural disaster, innocent life is slain to appease the god's anger, and the hardship ceases — this is the same sequence of events found in the human sacrifice rites of other primitive religions.

Nope this is a hanging pure and simple, nothing more. Punishment of remaining Saul Loyalists. God doesn't lift the famine because of the hanging and a hanging is not a sacrifice in anyway, the site, you sent me too is stretching the truth immensely. The famine isn't mentioned, nor does it say it was lifted. And you still bent the truth to say that God pusnished the isrealites because they didn't sacrifice to the Gibeonites God, which clearly, shown here that the Gibeonites aren't performing a blood sacrifice, nor do they mention any God but the Lord, and God isn't punishing the isrealites for not sacrificing, he punishing them for a breach of his covenant.

But you're so borderline illiterate its hillarious. You are a joke,
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

LCD
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

looked through no supersition's sight, the whole sight is nothing but anti-semetism incorperated. Other articles linked to the sight discuss Zionist, Jewish take over of america. The article in question cherry picks stuff from the bible, to claim that Jews believe it okay to sacrifice babies to ball by quoting the Talmud which clearly states idol worship for jews is wrong, but that it makes a distinction between the difference between actually committined a blood sacrifice and being tricked by someone unscrupulous. The whole sight is a jew hating race baiting joke.
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

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manfred
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by manfred »

On that site I could not get past the first big clanger...

It says it is "An educational forum for the examination of religious truth and tolerance" but it is nothing like that.

There is no register button that I can see. So it is no forum. Discussion is not allowed. Who is doing ALL the "examination"? The man with the monopoly to truth, obviously.

And tolerance? This is about as tolerant as Stalin. You may "listen", but don't you dare speak. And education? Well, surely we don't want facts to get in the way of a good "education"?

And when I saw that page about the Jewish conspiracy to introduce Judaic Law in America, I really could take no more. Two aspirins later, I thought I leave a note here
Defend Judaic Law!

Judaic law is coming to America! It is being welcomed by President Bush and the Supreme Court. Read all about it on the Internet: http://www.Come-and-Hear.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the first time, large sections of the Talmud, the Jewish book of Holy Law, are on the Internet. Learn how to defend Judaic law against ignorant criticism. Learn how the Talmud will affect our society and culture. Read what the Talmud says about:

Religious Freedom
Atrocities & Just Wars
The Death Penalty
Marriage
Sexual Fulfillment
Divorce
Pederasty and Homosexuality, and
The Special Place of Gentiles in the Coming Age

Right, what was this site again.... education???


So that site, as it is now, has to be dismissed as completely misleading, starting for the description it gives itself.
To improve it, it has to allow dissenting views to be displayed, obviously. But it can't, because it is so full of nonsense, nothing would be left to stand. As it is now, it's worse than a blog, because is does not even display or invite comments.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by Nosuperstition »

On that site I could not get past the first big clanger...

It says it is "An educational forum for the examination of religious truth and tolerance" but it is nothing like that.

There is no register button that I can see. So it is no forum. Discussion is not allowed. Who is doing ALL the "examination"? The man with the monopoly to truth, obviously.

And tolerance? This is about as tolerant as Stalin. You may "listen", but don't you dare speak. And education? Well, surely we don't facts to get in the way of a good "education"?

And when I saw that page about the Jewish conspiracy to introduce Judaic Law in America, I really could take no more. Two aspirins later, I thought I leave a note here
Instead of rubbishing it in whole as rubbish just because a few anti-Jewish sentiments have been expressed,you would have done better,if you had taken the points raised by them and deconstructed them one by one.Afterall you are a theologian and that supposedly makes you quite knowledgeable and as this forum is open for discussion instead of being closed for discussion.
It's true, in Judaism it's all about the Jews. Everybody else are dogs. Look at this quote from the Babylonian Talmud. If a non-Jew ever rests for a day he is allowed to be murdered by a Jew. They have to keep working 7 days a week, apparently.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11091&p=167647&hilit=dogs#p167647" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A lot many anti-Jewish things have also been said right in this forum,does that make this forum garbage,non-sensical and rubbish in its entirity?
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by manfred »

The "points" on that site do not warrant the respect of a "point by point" reply. It is sick. It is beneath contempt. I am starting to wonder if the real reason you post things like that here is to bring the forum into disrepute. We absolutely do not do what you do with your treatment of Jews and Christians. And we certainly do not want to give the impression that we do.

We present Islam from its own teachings and INVITE a Muslims response. We don't malign people with fairy tales. You have a quite irrational hatred of all things Jewish, and you go to ridiculous lengths to satisfy that feeling. Even the briefest of visits to your site shows this.

We, for very most the most part, don't hate Muslims. On the contrary, we care about them, and we want help them to see what Islam really is.

Islamocritic asked you about that. Did you see that?

I am surprised you found an internet service provider willing to host such a site, or may be they never looked at it?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

LCD
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Re: Atheists - nothing wrong in Hinduism & Bhuddhism

Post by LCD »

Instead of rubbishing it in whole as rubbish just because a few anti-Jewish sentiments have been expressed,you would have done better,if you had taken the points raised by them and deconstructed them one by one.Afterall you are a theologian and that supposedly makes you quite knowledgeable and as this forum is open for discussion instead of being closed for discussion.
Lesson one, moral equivalence: Muslims, like Nosuperstition have no concept of it. A person in politics says something anti-semetic... He is quoted on this sight. His quote is displayed as a sign of his personal bias, not the sights.

Nosupersition's site= The entire site is designed around portraying that the JEWS are evil, Article after article says it, by the sights founder, and organizer. That site is anti-semetic.

Muslims have no concept of anything--they are borderline retarded. :x
You should command that the Qur’an be collected.’” Abu Bakr added, “I said to `Umar, ‘How can we do what the Prophet never did?Jeremiah 31:25 "there will be no more Jews on the Earth when the sun, moon and stars stop shining," i.e. the end of the Earth and civilization.

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