Sources Concerning Honor Violence

This forum is for critics of Islam to post information and questions on how to debate issues. It is not a place for the actual debate with Muslims, but a place to ask questions.
Post Reply
User avatar
IslamoCritic
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Sources Concerning Honor Violence

Post by IslamoCritic »

Leaving aside the general misogyny found within Islam, there are two that I'm aware of that could encourage it. Does anyone else have any more?
Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1882 wrote:It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that: the Messenger of Allah said: “No woman should arrange the marriage of another woman, and no woman should arrange her own marriage. The adulteress is the one who arranges her own marriage.” (Sahih)
Reliance of the Traveller p. 508, o1.1-2 wrote:Who is Subject to Retaliation for Injurious Crimes
o1.1 - Retaliation
Retaliation is obligatory (A: if the person entitled wishes to take it (dis: o3.8)) against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right. (O: Intentionally is a first restriction and excludes killing someone through an honest mistake, while purely excludes a mistake made in a deliberate injury (def: o2.3), and without right excludes cases of justifiable homicide such as lawful retaliation.)
o1.2 The following are not subject to retaliation:
-1- a child or insane person, under any circumstances
-2- a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim;
-3- a Jewish or Christian subject of the Islamic state for killing an apostate from Islam (O: because a subject of the state is under its protection, while killing an apostate from Islam is without consequences);
-4- A father or mother (or their fathers of mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring;
Here's an example of the fiqh rulings concerning honor killings being followed in Saudi Arabia:
Saudi preacher gets off light for raping, killing daughter wrote:A Saudi preacher who raped his five-year-old daughter and tortured her to death has been sentenced to pay "blood money" to the mother after having served a short jail term, activists said on Saturday.

Lamia al-Ghamdi was admitted to hospital on December 25, 2011 with multiple injuries, including a crushed skull, broken ribs and left arm, extensive bruising and burns, the activists said. She died last October 22.

Fayhan al-Ghamdi, an Islamic preacher and regular guest on Muslim television networks, confessed to having used cables and a cane to inflict the injuries, the activists from the group "Women to Drive" said in a statement.

They said the father had doubted Lama's virginity and had her checked up by a medic.

Randa al-Kaleeb, a social worker from the hospital where Lama was admitted, said the girl's back was broken and that she had been raped "everywhere", according to the group.

According to the victim's mother, hospital staff told her that her "child's rectum had been torn open and the abuser had attempted to burn it closed."

The activists said that the judge had ruled the prosecution could only seek "blood money (compensation for the next of kin under Islamic law) and the time the defendant had served in prison since Lama's death suffices as punishment."

Three Saudi activists, including Manal al-Sharif, have raised objections to the ruling.

The ruling is based on Islamic laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives, activists said.
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/63885.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, are there any serious Muslim scholars or respected religious leaders who have condoned it? I know the Chechen President has:
Chechen President Kadyrov Defends Honor Killings wrote:The bull-necked president of Chechnya emerged from afternoon prayers at the mosque and with chilling composure explained why seven young women who had been shot in the head deserved to die.

Ramzan Kadyrov said the women, whose bodies were found dumped by the roadside, had “loose morals” and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings.

“If a woman runs around and if a man runs around with her, both of them are killed,” Kadyrov told journalists in Grozny.

The 32-year-old former militia leader is carrying out a campaign to impose Islamic values and strengthen the traditional customs of predominantly Muslim Chechnya in an effort to blunt the appeal of hardline Islamic separatists and shore up his power. In doing so, critics say, he is setting up a dictatorship where Russian laws do not apply.

Kadyrov’s bluster shows how confident he is of his position. “No one can tell us not to be Muslims,” he said outside the mosque. “If anyone says I cannot be a Muslim, he is my enemy.”

Few dare to challenge Kadyrov’s rule in Chechnya.

Kadyrov describes women as the property of their husbands and says their main role is to bear children. He encourages men to take more than one wife, even though polygamy is illegal in Russia. Women and girls are now required to wear headscarves in all schools, universities and government offices.

Some Chechen women say they support or at least accept Kadyrov’s strict new guidelines.
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?story_i ... ction_id=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
pr126
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Blighty

Re: Sources Concerning Honor Violence

Post by pr126 »

.
The adulteress is the one who arranges her own marriage.” (Sahih)
Kadijah was one of them then. And she was good enough for the profit of Islam. :whistling:
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

User avatar
IslamoCritic
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Re: Sources Concerning Honor Violence

Post by IslamoCritic »

pr126 wrote:.
The adulteress is the one who arranges her own marriage.” (Sahih)
Kadijah was one of them then. And she was good enough for the profit of Islam. :whistling:
:lol: Good catch. It's amusing how the existence of Kadijah contradicts Islam. It would all make sense if she was hated by the religion, but we find the opposite. Muhammad loved her, so Muslims do likewise. Reminds me of the exchange with "Prince Steven": viewtopic.php?p=195881" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sum
Posts: 6631
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Sources Concerning Honor Violence

Post by sum »

Hello IslamoCritic

The following link to one of Abul Kasem`s articles explains a lot of the rationale for honour killings.

http://www.islam-watch.org/abulkasem/Mo ... uffalo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FP: Abul Kasem, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

I’d like to talk to you today about the “moderate” Muslim who beheaded his wife in Buffalo.
The liberal/Left, of course, isn’t too interested in this particular story and, as always, it's going out of its way to de-Islamize it.

But let me ask this, before the mainstream media succeeds in pushing the victim, Aasiya Z. Hassan, into historical invisibility – as it has done to so many victims of Islamic jihad and Islamic gender apartheid: When Muzzammil Hassan chopped his wife’s head off, was he doing something that he had learned to do from Islam?

Kasem: To my mind, this horrible slaughter is a case of honor killing. The killer, Muzammil Hassan, is certainly well-versed in Islamic theology and jurisprudence. He is the CEO of Bridges, the Islamic Television Station which he started to propagate the “true” image of Islam to the Western World. It is hard to believe that such an impeccably qualified person would not have been aware of what he was doing. Most likely, Muzammil Hasan had planned this all very well, and he did it according to Islamic fashion, i.e. slaughtering by beheading.

FP: Can you tell us about the legitimacy that Muslims find for honor killing in their religious theology?

Kasem: Well, you don’t need to go further than the Qur’an, which is the basis of honor killing in Islam. Let us read 4:15:
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

This verse clearly tells that a disgraced woman is condemned to a solitary confinement till death. The alternative is the judgement of Allah. The Qur’an is not clear what that judgement of Allah could be. There are various interpretations on this. Therefore, it is a fish market: anyone (man) may do to his woman whatever he wishes, including ending her life.

FP: So what is your reading of what happened in this case of beheading in Buffalo?

Kasem: According to Islam, if a woman disobeys her husband she is disgraced. Therefore, when Aasiya Zubair, the wife of Hassan, resorted to the Western justice system to seek protection from her menacing husband, she had certainly broken the Islamic tenet of complete surrender to the wishes of her husband. Thus, she had dishonoured her husband, his reputation and, most importantly, the Islamic code of conduct for an obedient wife. Therefore, it is not surprising that the killer had to end her life Islamically, to restore his pride, honor and religious conviction.

Let us read verse 4:34:
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Please note that in verse 4:34 Allah permits a husband to punish his disobedient wife. It is worthy to observe that this verse says if the husband suspects or fears disobedience and rebellion; that the actual acts might not have taken place. This verse also says that the men are the protectors of women. Thus, Islamically, Aasiya was foolish enough to seek the protection of Canadian law. It was a clear violation of Qur’anic injunction of verse 4:34, a challenge to Islam. And, as per the Islamic law, if anyone violates the Qur’anic command the only punishment is death by beheading. Thus, we may conclude that Hassan has acted in the manner that Qur’an commands him.

sum

User avatar
IslamoCritic
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Re: Sources Concerning Honor Violence

Post by IslamoCritic »

Thanks Sum. I think this next article makes a good argument for a Qur'anic justification of honor killing.

An Example in the Koran of a Holy Man of Allah that comes close to Justifying Honor Killings:the Case of Moses and Al-Khidr(the Green Man)
The Koran does not specifically say to do honor killings but it does gives an example that comes close to it.

1.It is when a holy man of Allah,who Islamic tradition calls Al-Khidr/the Green Man kills a boy who is bad.Moses is with Al-Khidr when this happens.

2.Thus his behaviour would bring shame and dishonor on his parents.In Islamic culture honor is very important and to lose it is very serious.

[...]

Here are the adventures of Moses and the Green Man

Chapter 18:60-82

Allah tells Muhammad of an adventure Moses had

First he had an adventure with a fish


“And when Moses said to his page, “I will not give up until I reach the meeting of the two seas, though I go on for many years.”

Then, when they reached their meeting, they forgot their fish, and it took its way into the sea, burrowing.When they had passed over, he said to his page, “Bring us our breakfast; indeed, we have encountered weariness from this our journey.”

He said, “What do you think? When we took refuge in the rock, then I forgot the fish and it was Satan himself that made me forget it so that I should not remember it and so it took its way into the sea in a manner marvellous.”Said he, “This is what we were seeking!’ And so they returned upon their tracks, retracing them.”

Then Moses has adventures with a Holy Man of Allah

“Then they found one of Our servants:

1.To whom We had given mercy from Us,

2.And We had taught him knowledge proceeding from Us(Note:a holy man of Allah).

Moses said to him, “Will I follow you so that you teach me, of what you have been taught, right judgment.”Said he(Note:the holy man), “Assuredly you wilt not be able to bear with me patiently.And how should you bear patiently that you have never encompassed in your knowledge?”

He(Note:Moses) said, “Yet you will find me, if God will, patient; and I will not rebel against you in anything.”

Said he, “Then if you follow me, question me not on anything until I myself introduce the mention of it to you.”"

The first adventure with the holy man:a hole in a ship

“So they departed; until, when they embarked upon the ship, he made a hole in it.

He said(Moses), “What, have you made a hole in it so as to drown its passengers? You have indeed done a grievous thing.”

Said he(holy man), “Did I not say that you could never bear with me patiently?”

He said(Moses), “Do not take me to task that I forgot, neither constrain me to do a thing too difficult.”"

The second adventure:the holy man kills a boy

“So they departed; until, when they met a lad, he slew him.

He said(Moses), “What, you have slain an innocent soul, and that not to retaliate for a soul slain? You have indeed done a horrible thing.”

Said he(holy man), “Did I not say that you could never bear with me patiently?”

He said(Moses), “If I question you on anything after this, then keep me company no more; you have already experienced excuse sufficient on my part.”"

The third adventure:about a wall

“So they departed; until, when they reached the people of a city, they asked the people for food, but they refused to receive them hospitably. There they found a wall about to tumble down, and so he set it up. He said, “If you had wished, you could have taken a wage for that.”"

The Holy Man explains his actions

“Said he, “This is the parting between me and you. Now I will tell you the interpretation of that you could not bear patiently.”"

The first explanation

“As for the ship, it belonged to certain poor men, who toiled upon the sea; and I desired to damage it, for behind them there was a king who was seizing every ship by brutal force.”

The second explanation

“As for the lad, his parents were believers; and we were afraid he would impose on them insolence and unbelief;so we desired that their Lord should give to them in exchange one better than he in purity, and nearer in tenderness.”

The third explanation

“As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan lads in the city, and under it was a treasure belonging to them. Their father was a righteous man; and your Lord desired that they should come of age and then bring forth their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. I did it not of my own bidding. This is the interpretation of that you could not bear patiently.”"
http://www.antisharia.com/2013/01/26/an ... green-man/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post Reply