I thought only Muslim countries were crazy?

[Idesigner]

It makes sense Yohan.

India wanted its rulers of past to be powerful and rule country with fairness.

They all turned out worst and almost all were corrupt without any vision . There was no mighty dynasty like China or Europe to unite the country.

Looking at Modern leaders, they all copy maruding Jat, Sikh ,Marathas, Rajputs and others.When he was alive , Thackray supported corruption and defended almost all corrupt Maratha leaders, From Naik to Pawar, to Gadkari.He even defended Indira Gandhi and Sanjay's corruption.To him Hitler was the kind of leader India needed. He made fun of any movement wanting to aboslish corruption.He even threatened Anna Hazare. In India every ruler is for himself and country is still very poor..They wont hesitate to backstab their own people and side with Talibans if it helps them to stay in power an helps build foreign account.

[iffo]

I had very different image of India. If you can not make fun of politicians or make a cartoon of them that's too much. Its worst than Pakistan.
There is no freedom of speech there period, not about religion but also about politicians . I wonder how no one complains about it ? I mean internationally everybody complains about China or Saudi Arabia but never about India regarding freedom of speech.

Zardari

[Nosuperstition]

However the Marathas whom you so despise have completely surrounded Delhi but they did not want to reduce the beautiful city to ashes hence they left it.The British on the other hand after the 1857 revolt destroyed the beauty of much of the city.They were similiar to what Nadir Shah , the ruler of Iran did to Delhi

I understand your point. Maratha empire was born during pretty brutal time whre lootibg, rape and plunder, anarchy was the norm.

Maratha once ruled half of India. They could have turned out to be benovelent empire with a powerful monarchy . They coulld have chnaged course of history, but their short sightedness ruined everything. Here again Marathi Brahmins screwed everyone.rember all trecherous Peshwas, killing each other, poisoning each other and kidnapping each other.Our Thackrays and many Marathi of Mumbai like to do that but too bad its modern India. They can face same bitter medicine from other people, whether its congress in power or BJP.

In Delhi Maratha tried gherao which was the only strategy they knew. Before any loot starts they have to fight war with Abdali. They were defeated because of flawed military strategy. We dont know what they would have done if they had won the war. I guess loot, rape, plunder and back to Pune with lots of gold. Here they lost even their loin cloth and Padhadi. Later Sindhyas and others wont rule with any sense of justce and refoms, till English made them satrapas.Now all reforms started by those slave Maharajas.

Marathas ruled for a very short span of time.From death of Aurangzeb to around the time of the second/third Anglo-Maratha war.Every Empire in its beginning indulges in loot and tries to perpetuate its legacy of loot in form of excessive taxation etc and I believe Marathas were no different.Might be if they ruled for longer they could have possibly initiated good reforms and and ruled more benevolently.

You seem to be confusing the gherao of Delhi with the third battle of Panipat.The Maratha Peshwa who was in charge of attack on Delhi decided that if he lets loose his army on Delhi , the beautiful city would be reduced to rubble and on his own withdrew the siege possibly after getting the needed monetary assurances and benefits.The third battle of Panipat on the other hand happened not because of the gherao of Delhi, but because of the Marathas defeating the son of Ahmed Shah Abdali and weaning away Lahore in present day Pakistan from him.

Maratha soldiers were supposedly diease ridden prior to the war which is the reason why they lost it.But before loosing they are said to have reduced Abdali's cavalry to such insignificance that that Sikhs pounced easily on it and destroyed much of what was left of it when they were on their way back.

Even after 1761 when Ahmad Shah Abdali routed the Marathas in a disastrous battle at Panipat, the Marathas recovered under Madhoji Shinde and became the virtual dictators at Delhi while the Mughal ruler became their puppet.

Under the Sikhs and Madhoji cow slaughter was banned most of India after centuries and was punishable with death, how would that be possible if Muslims were ruling?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... ht=#616656

[Nosuperstition]

Even when ill and dying, Aurangzeb made sure that the populace knew he was still alive, for if they had thought otherwise then the turmoil of another war of succession was likely.[65] He died in Ahmednagar on 20 February 1707 at the age of 88, having outlived many of his children. His modest open-air grave in Khuldabad expresses his deep devotion to his Islamic beliefs. It is sited in the courtyard of the shrine of the Sufi saint Shaikh Burham-u'd-din Gharib, who was a disciple of Nizamuddin Auliya of Delhi.

Brown describes that after his death, "a string of weak emperors, wars of succession, and coups by noblemen heralded the irrevocable weakening of Mughal power". She notes that the populist but "fairly old-fashioned" explanation for the decline is that there was a reaction to Aurangzeb's oppression.[66] Aurangzeb's son, Bahadur Shah I, succeeded him and the empire, both due to Aurangzeb's over-extension and Bahadur Shah's weak military and leadership qualities, entered a period of terminal decline. Immediately after Bahadur Shah occupied the throne, the Maratha Empire – which Aurangzeb had held at bay, inflicting high human and monetary costs – consolidated and launched effective invasions of Mughal territory, seizing power from the weak emperor. Within decades of Aurangzeb's death, the Mughal Emperor had little power beyond the walls of Delhi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb#Death_and_Legacy

The Third Anglo-Maratha War (1817–1818)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Maratha_War

Marathas expanded and remained in power only for about 110 years.

[Nosuperstition]

I had very different image of India. If you can not make fun of politicians or make a cartoon of them that's too much. Its worst than Pakistan.
There is no freedom of speech there period, not about religion but also about politicians . I wonder how no one complains about it ? I mean internationally everybody complains about China or Saudi Arabia but never about India regarding freedom of speech.

Zardari

Politicians are regularly mocked at in newspaper cartoons in India.Somehow Intelligent lad brought up the issue of freedom of hurting religious sentiments which is not allowed in India.

[Nosuperstition]

After the third battle of Panipat , the Marathas were defeated by Ahmed Shah Abdali , the Afghan ruler.He granted permission to those men who lost their dear relatives in the war with Marathas , the right to rape defenceless Maratha women.After the rapes, many Maratha women are said to have jumped into wells and committed suicide.

So even the Marathas were at the receiving end of rapacious warfares.

In medieval warfare, if pre-war negotiations failed and an ultimatum to surrender was not honored, the victor got the right to a few days (usually 3- 5) of rape and plunder after the war. That was the practice all over the world. Soldiers got paid only a pittance and they looked forward to bonus rewards after a hard fought and won war in the form of loot, captured women and slaves. If they didn't receive such rewards they could revolt, and kill their leaders. Ordinary folks fled to far off places before the war started, but those unlucky enough to be stuck in the surrounded cities awaited their fate. After the plunder, order was established with the new ruler in charge. Ordinary people then slowly returned.

The situation with Hindu Marathas was different. They couldn't establish a stable kingdom/empire, when they were able to, especially when the Muslim power waned in India. In stead, they turned into mauraders and plunderers with a wide reach across the subcontinent and created permanent havoc. That was also the reason why they lost to Afghans. Proper order was established only when the British conquered the Marathas.

One can understand why Hindus take pride in the achievements of the Marathas in challenging the Muslims. That's because they have no other rulers to take such pride with (Rajputs were in Kahoots with the Muslim rulers). But that doesn't erase the fact that Hindu Marathas failed to live upto the standards people expected as they degenerated into robbers. All that takes one to this Thackeray guy who took much pride in his Maratha ancestors. Was he any different from his lawless ancestors? Weren't he and his army of thugs modern day versions of the maurading Marathas of yesterday?

Vijaynagar, was the first Hindu kingdom which gave up the Hindu practice of not molesting non-combatants. Thus they started paying the Muslims with the same token. Whenever the armies of Vijaynagar overran any Bahamani town or village they torched it. With this they put the fear of death into Muslim minds and soon, the Adilshahi and Nizamshahi sultans sued for a treaty with Vijaynagar that would proscribe the killing of civilians by either side.

http://learntheology.com/history_of_jihad_hindus.html

If the monarchs really have the will they can impose rules of chivalry on their soldiers even if they belonged to the medieval period.Marathas had their centre of power in Maharashtra where the land is not as fertile as the Gangetic plain which is the seat of power of both the Delhi Sultanates and the Moghuls.Naturally their habitat does not allow them to give much leeway to their opponents.The situation is similiar to the Arabs indulging heavily in slave trade right upto modern times in order to survive.

It is another matter that if there is overpopulation and in situations such as those of droughts and famines,slave trade once again raises its ugly head even if the land is fertile.

[Nosuperstition]

Maratha once ruled half of India. They could have turned out to be benovelent empire with a powerful monarchy . They coulld have chnaged course of history, but their short sightedness ruined everything. Here again Marathi Brahmins screwed everyone.rember all trecherous Peshwas, killing each other, poisoning each other and kidnapping each other.

Only the Moghul Empire can be considered somewhat benevolent in its treatment of Hindus.Even the Delhi Sultanates who preceded the Moghuls were extremely cruel to their Hindu subjects,massacred them in hundreds of thousands,imposed the Ziziya tax and other excessive forms of taxation which resulted in famines and deaths of thousands of subjects.There were times when the Sultans were benevolent but they were not as benevolent as the Mughals.Their centre of power being a rich land allowed such a benevolence towards their subjects.

Now one must also remember that the ascendancy to thone of even muslim rulers was always fiercely contested by the wanna be kings who were mostly brothers.Might be Hindu Marathas picked up this trait from them.The moral of Ramayana in this aspect is that brothers should not contest for the throne as is exemplified in case of Ram and Bharath.

And servants must remain loyal to their lords as has been exemplified by Hanuman and Ram in the Ramayana,wife should remain loyal to her husband as is exemplified by the story of Sita and Ram.So treachery towards monarch/lord/husband is not backed up on a religious grounds.

[Idesigner]

Many historians has commented about brutality of almost all Moghul Empires. Even Jahangir and Shahjahan indulged in destroying Hindu temples. Jahagirs attack on temples of Garhwal is well recorded.Theur numerous wars and large scale monument building drained their coffers. In comparision to Sultanate days, north India was quite stable and peaceful during Moghul time.

Moghuls lAND Revenue system was quite exploitative. Quiet a few peasant revolts took place during their rule.

[skynightblaze]

I have stayed in Mumbai for a couple of years and visited it plenty of times and I am a marathi myself. Marathi speaking crowd do not extort money as you claim. My hometown is close to Mumbai and it is also full of marathi people and we do not go around extorting money. We do work and earn our money.

I am no fan of Shiv Sena or the tactics used by them but ----

Extortion is something that is practised by everyone in India who can get away with it. It is called corruption.India is having a much harder time to progress compared to other countries because of this. Shiva sena extortion just adds to this misery.

Corruption is more rampant in the public sector. It is simply hopeless. To get your work done you have to bribe people especially in the government offices otherwise you simply don't stand a chance to get your work done and yes India lags behind other countries because of corruption.

[skynightblaze]

All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.

Can you quote the historians who document that marathis engaged in rapes or pillage between 1700 AD to 1840 AD ? More ever I do not understand why you hold a specific grudge against political leaders from Maharashtra . What about the political leaders from the south or north of India? Do you think they are straight?

[Idesigner]

All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.

Can you quote the historians who document that marathis engaged in rapes or pillage between 1700 AD to 1840 AD ? More ever I do not understand why you hold a specific grudge against political leaders from Maharashtra . What about the political leaders from the south or north of India? Do you think they are straight?

India expected lot more from Maharastra as that was a well administered state after split of 1960. In all respect it was well ahead of other states. Now the state is total mess. India and Hindus expected even a great Maratha dynasty after demise of Moghuls.

For Maratha rape and pillage , many bengali poets, intellectual have mentioned dark days in their state when Maratha used to loot while coming and going. One poet has written epic poem about this brutality.. His name was Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar, a Puneri Brahmin perhaps. Other refferences are from History by Majumdar & Sirkar and citation by Nirad Chaudhari. They all mentioned that their villages used to be pillaged by Marathas while going and returning.

As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians. Our oly hope now is Hazare and Kejriwal.

I forgot name of Rajput historians . Will look into.

[Yohan]

All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.

Can you quote the historians who document that marathis engaged in rapes or pillage between 1700 AD to 1840 AD ? More ever I do not understand why you hold a specific grudge against political leaders from Maharashtra . What about the political leaders from the south or north of India? Do you think they are straight?

India expected lot more from Maharastra as that was a well administered state after split of 1960. In all respect it was well ahead of other states. Now the state is total mess. India and Hindus expected even a great Maratha dynasty after demise of Moghuls.

For Maratha rape and pillage , many bengali poets, intellectual have mentioned dark days in their state when Maratha used to loot while coming and going. One poet has written epic poem about this brutality.. His name was Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar, a Puneri Brahmin perhaps. Other refferences are from History by Majumdar & Sirkar and citation by Nirad Chaudhari. They all mentioned that their villages used to be pillaged by Marathas while going and returning.

As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians. Our oly hope now is Hazare and Kejriwal.

I forgot name of Rajput historians . Will look into.

Every history book I have read have noted Marathas as lawless bands marauding all over India. That should be proof enough. But Hindu nationalists look at them differently through their religious prism. Well, they look at the whole Indian history that way, false neverthless.

[skynightblaze]

India expected lot more from Maharastra as that was a well administered state after split of 1960. In all respect it was well ahead of other states. Now the state is total mess. India and Hindus expected even a great Maratha dynasty after demise of Moghuls.

For Maratha rape and pillage , many bengali poets, intellectual have mentioned dark days in their state when Maratha used to loot while coming and going. One poet has written epic poem about this brutality.. His name was Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar, a Puneri Brahmin perhaps. Other refferences are from History by Majumdar & Sirkar and citation by Nirad Chaudhari. They all mentioned that their villages used to be pillaged by Marathas while going and returning.

As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians. Our oly hope now is Hazare and Kejriwal.

I forgot name of Rajput historians . Will look into.

Fine. Your sources reflect the brutalities of the maratha empire. Marathas and brahmins are different even though both speak the same language i.e. marathi. I am not sure whether brahmins were involved in these acts but it seems brahmins were one of the victims of marathas..

The Marathas committed unspeakable atrocities on the helpless population of this district. An eye-witness, Vaneshwar Vidhyalankar, the court pandit of the Maharaja of Barddhaman wrote - ' Shahu Rajah's troops are niggard of pity, slayers of pregnant women and infants, of Brahmins and the poor, fierce in spirit, expert in robbing the property of every one and committing every kind of sinful act.

http://bardhaman.nic.in/histandback.html

Anyway I am a marathi brahmin and not a maratha. Let me make clarify that I am not interested in defending anyone including the brahmins because I know they have been the arseholes in the past. Just to give an example, my mother's eldest aunt (90 years back) was interested in pursuing her studies however people of those times including brahmins used to spit on her because they did not like a woman getting education. She used to come back home and change her clothes and go back.

[Nosuperstition]

Nosuperstition all those stories you mantioned in Purans cant be authenticated by Shiv Purana or Vishnu Puran. Both Purans put their own diety at top and other as devotee, but it stops there.Later some people will add all kind of porno material to entertain themselves or demean others, or sometime out right forgery like Bhavisya Purana. I have read Brahma Purana and Bhagvat in detail. Cant find anything insulting about Shiva.Ofcourse Avtaras of Vishnu were shown worshipped by Shiva. Only stupid people will take any Puran stories seriously. One can be Hindu without believing in any puranic mumbo jumbo.Purans were written by some selfish brahmin priests for their own self interest to give permanent begging rights to their descendents.

When confronted with Vishnu, according to Skanda Purana, Vīrabhadra swallows his chakra and this causes Lord Vishnu to act wisely.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virabhadra ... _of_Daksha

Yes I know that .Vishnu is shown to be powerless before Veerabhadra a god born from Shiva.

However Puranas are also religious texts for Hindus.It is the Puranic stories and their characters that have found their way into the minds of ordinary Hindus along with the Ramayana and the Mahabharata even though the Shrutis( or Vedas )and Smritis are also Hindu holy books.

A line in the Mahabharata supposedly says that you must take into account about what the Shrutis,Smritis,Itihasas(read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata) and the Puranas say on a particular topic and finally act according to your own conscience.

[Nosuperstition]

As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians.

In War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.

Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/au ... deepramesh

British too had their fair share of skeletons in the cupboard.A guy of the Old Forum said that we Brits razed down defiant African and Asian cities and towns without any hesitation and the egoes of those people were hurt as they could not swallow/digest the fact that despite numbers being on their side they had to cow down to the numerically inferior British after the wars.

According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.

[Idesigner]

Fine. Your sources reflect the brutalities of the maratha empire. Marathas and brahmins are different even though both speak the same language i.e. marathi. I am not sure whether brahmins were involved in these acts but it seems brahmins were one of the victims of marathas..

Yes Maratha Shivaji founded the empire.Its understandable that in order to establish his own kingdom he had to resort to banditry etc. All dynasties go through that phase. Later it was job of descendents to consolidate and rule people with fairness . Shivaji's descendents turned out to be pretty weak. Their administrators and ministers who used to be Brahmins usurped power and started all kind of dirty deeds.They always preferred to work back stage. They were called Peshwas..Later only one could form princely state i.e. Holkars. I think house of Holkar is Brahmin.

Many Brahmins must have joined in that loot.. That Bengali bard specifically mentions Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar as culprit. Well its history. Who knows what my ancestors had done in those days. Wish they all had a national vision and could have founded great Hindu empire.

See till this date C.M. of Maharstra is always manipulated by others and in close contact with opposition politicians, so called enemies etc.. The real power is wasted in hands of puppeteers. As a result no leader of national cader could develope after independence.All poerful local leaders with great manipulating power in Delhi. Never wanting to becom P.M.

[Yohan]

As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians.

In War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.

Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/24/india.randeepramesh

British too had their fair share of skeletons in the cupboard.A guy of the Old Forum said that we Brits razed down defiant African and Asian cities and towns without any hesitation and the egoes of those people were hurt as they could not swallow/digest the fact that despite numbers being on their side they had to cow down to the numerically inferior British after the wars.

According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.

Punishments were brutal in that day and age all across the world. Even a poor hungry teenager caught stealing a little food in England was deported to far away places like Australia, and probably died before reaching there. If the Sepoy mutiny succeded in expelling the British, there would be no India today.

[Idesigner]

According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.

Yes aftermath of 1857 was extremely brutal. So far number goes we dont have any historical witnesses. Mittal and others often takees lots of undelivered mail from those days as proof. As if nascent postal system was widely used by numeous illiterate people.It was not in distance past. We have records from many princely states. Few I am bit familiar.My small town in India was at cross road wheere Tatya Topes soldiers took refuge. All talk about hanging of lots of captured soldiers and theirsupporters, sympathizers and people who gave them refuge.

Yes English leveled quite afew villages around Delhi and in UP. If Mittal can locate numerous mass graves in UP I would believe the number. Brit troops used to bury hindus and burn muslims. If we can locate lots of cemeteries of muslims following the aftermath then we can check out his numbers. This didnt happen in historic past.

Brits of Clive time were pretty brutal and predatory when they got hold of Bengal. Lots of looting, brigandary by Brits took place. Later they will destroy lots home industry related to weaving.They were foreign rulers who came to India for business and later loved to rule innferior races.

[Idesigner]

However Puranas are also religious texts for Hindus.It is the Puranic stories and their characters that have found their way into the minds of ordinary Hindus along with the Ramayana and the Mahabharata even though the Shrutis( or Vedas )and Smritis are also Hindu holy books.

A line in the Mahabharata supposedly says that you must take into account about what the Shrutis,Smritis,Itihasas(read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata) and the Puranas say on a particular topic and finally act according to your own conscience.

Read Purans. Stories are absolutely mind boggling and mostly talk about giving alms to Brahmins at every stage.It even monopolisez bagging as Brahmin's vocation, other beggars should be punished. It strongly supports caste taboos. Read that Satnarayannarayan Katha of skandh purana.It does not talk about any reforms. It never mentioned any bad traditions which Hindus should give up. No wonder lots of later day Hindu reformers discarded whole work as big b.s.

Original Mahabharat composition predates all Puranas , smrutis and even some Upnishadas.

[Ram]

Yohan wrote:

Only USA has full 'freedom of expression' rights.

For now. This may change.

Obama: “The Future Must Not Belong to Those Who Slander the Prophet of Islam”

pr126, I don't know if Obama said that. But Obama did not speak against the freedom of expression. You are saying that because you hate Obama, matters not what Obama says. The Republican President Richard Nixon was the biggest culprit for suppressing the freedom of expression, and you know what happened to him. Americans will never tolerate the suppression of any freedom, so stop bellyaching.