Idesigner wrote:However the Marathas whom you so despise have completely surrounded Delhi but they did not want to reduce the beautiful city to ashes hence they left it.The British on the other hand after the 1857 revolt destroyed the beauty of much of the city.They were similiar to what Nadir Shah , the ruler of Iran did to Delhi
I understand your point. Maratha empire was born during pretty brutal time whre lootibg, rape and plunder, anarchy was the norm.
Maratha once ruled half of India. They could have turned out to be benovelent empire with a powerful monarchy . They coulld have chnaged course of history, but their short sightedness ruined everything. Here again Marathi Brahmins screwed everyone.rember all trecherous Peshwas, killing each other, poisoning each other and kidnapping each other.Our Thackrays and many Marathi of Mumbai like to do that but too bad its modern India.They can face same bitter medicine from other people, whether its congress in power or BJP.
In Delhi Maratha tried gherao which was the only strategy they knew. Before any loot starts they have to fight war with Abdali. They were defeated because of flawed military strategy. We dont know what they would have done if they had won the war. I guess loot, rape, plunder and back to Pune with lots of gold. Here they lost even their loin cloth and Padhadi. Later Sindhyas and others wont rule with any sense of justce and refoms, till English made them satrapas.Now all reforms started by those slave Maharajas.
Husky wrote:Even after 1761 when Ahmad Shah Abdali routed the Marathas in a disastrous battle at Panipat, the Marathas recovered under Madhoji Shinde and became the virtual dictators at Delhi while the Mughal ruler became their puppet.
Under the Sikhs and Madhoji cow slaughter was banned most of India after centuries and was punishable with death, how would that be possible if Muslims were ruling?
Even when ill and dying, Aurangzeb made sure that the populace knew he was still alive, for if they had thought otherwise then the turmoil of another war of succession was likely.[65] He died in Ahmednagar on 20 February 1707 at the age of 88, having outlived many of his children. His modest open-air grave in Khuldabad expresses his deep devotion to his Islamic beliefs. It is sited in the courtyard of the shrine of the Sufi saint Shaikh Burham-u'd-din Gharib, who was a disciple of Nizamuddin Auliya of Delhi.
Brown describes that after his death, "a string of weak emperors, wars of succession, and coups by noblemen heralded the irrevocable weakening of Mughal power". She notes that the populist but "fairly old-fashioned" explanation for the decline is that there was a reaction to Aurangzeb's oppression.[66] Aurangzeb's son, Bahadur Shah I, succeeded him and the empire, both due to Aurangzeb's over-extension and Bahadur Shah's weak military and leadership qualities, entered a period of terminal decline. Immediately after Bahadur Shah occupied the throne, the Maratha Empire – which Aurangzeb had held at bay, inflicting high human and monetary costs – consolidated and launched effective invasions of Mughal territory, seizing power from the weak emperor. Within decades of Aurangzeb's death, the Mughal Emperor had little power beyond the walls of Delhi.
The Third Anglo-Maratha War (1817–1818)
iffo wrote:I had very different image of India. If you can not make fun of politicians or make a cartoon of them that's too much. Its worst than Pakistan.
There is no freedom of speech there period, not about religion but also about politicians . I wonder how no one complains about it ? I mean internationally everybody complains about China or Saudi Arabia but never about India regarding freedom of speech.
Zardari
Yohan wrote:Nosuperstition wrote:After the third battle of Panipat , the Marathas were defeated by Ahmed Shah Abdali , the Afghan ruler.He granted permission to those men who lost their dear relatives in the war with Marathas , the right to rape defenceless Maratha women.After the rapes, many Maratha women are said to have jumped into wells and committed suicide.
So even the Marathas were at the receiving end of rapacious warfares.
In medieval warfare, if pre-war negotiations failed and an ultimatum to surrender was not honored, the victor got the right to a few days (usually 3- 5) of rape and plunder after the war. That was the practice all over the world. Soldiers got paid only a pittance and they looked forward to bonus rewards after a hard fought and won war in the form of loot, captured women and slaves. If they didn't receive such rewards they could revolt, and kill their leaders. Ordinary folks fled to far off places before the war started, but those unlucky enough to be stuck in the surrounded cities awaited their fate. After the plunder, order was established with the new ruler in charge. Ordinary people then slowly returned.
The situation with Hindu Marathas was different. They couldn't establish a stable kingdom/empire, when they were able to, especially when the Muslim power waned in India. In stead, they turned into mauraders and plunderers with a wide reach across the subcontinent and created permanent havoc. That was also the reason why they lost to Afghans. Proper order was established only when the British conquered the Marathas.
One can understand why Hindus take pride in the achievements of the Marathas in challenging the Muslims. That's because they have no other rulers to take such pride with (Rajputs were in Kahoots with the Muslim rulers). But that doesn't erase the fact that Hindu Marathas failed to live upto the standards people expected as they degenerated into robbers. All that takes one to this Thackeray guy who took much pride in his Maratha ancestors. Was he any different from his lawless ancestors? Weren't he and his army of thugs modern day versions of the maurading Marathas of yesterday?
Vijaynagar, was the first Hindu kingdom which gave up the Hindu practice of not molesting non-combatants. Thus they started paying the Muslims with the same token. Whenever the armies of Vijaynagar overran any Bahamani town or village they torched it. With this they put the fear of death into Muslim minds and soon, the Adilshahi and Nizamshahi sultans sued for a treaty with Vijaynagar that would proscribe the killing of civilians by either side.
IDesigner wrote:Maratha once ruled half of India. They could have turned out to be benovelent empire with a powerful monarchy . They coulld have chnaged course of history, but their short sightedness ruined everything. Here again Marathi Brahmins screwed everyone.rember all trecherous Peshwas, killing each other, poisoning each other and kidnapping each other.
Yohan wrote:skynightblaze wrote:I have stayed in Mumbai for a couple of years and visited it plenty of times and I am a marathi myself. Marathi speaking crowd do not extort money as you claim. My hometown is close to Mumbai and it is also full of marathi people and we do not go around extorting money. We do work and earn our money.
I am no fan of Shiv Sena or the tactics used by them but ----
Extortion is something that is practised by everyone in India who can get away with it. It is called corruption.India is having a much harder time to progress compared to other countries because of this. Shiva sena extortion just adds to this misery.
Idesigner wrote:All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.
skynightblaze wrote:Idesigner wrote:All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.
Can you quote the historians who document that marathis engaged in rapes or pillage between 1700 AD to 1840 AD ? More ever I do not understand why you hold a specific grudge against political leaders from Maharashtra . What about the political leaders from the south or north of India? Do you think they are straight?
Idesigner wrote:skynightblaze wrote:Idesigner wrote:All marathi castes right from Brahmins and others join that pilage, rapes and out right brutality of their army of siege in Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Bengal circa 1700-1840. Many Bengali and Rajput historians have documented their loot of even Hindu temples.This continued till English put a stop by defeating them in two small wars near Pune.. Once marathi dynasties joined English system of governance they all became cultured , brutality stopped and we had marathi renaissance of post 1857 . Unfortunately whole Maharstra again went back to dark ages once greedy maratha politicians learnt how to extort money from rich as well as their own poors. Pawar, Gadkari, Naiks, Chauhans Thakres and all joine the system.Rank and file poors of Maharstra paid heavy price, although the state is rich. Now our hope is pinned on one reformer Anna.
Can you quote the historians who document that marathis engaged in rapes or pillage between 1700 AD to 1840 AD ? More ever I do not understand why you hold a specific grudge against political leaders from Maharashtra . What about the political leaders from the south or north of India? Do you think they are straight?
India expected lot more from Maharastra as that was a well administered state after split of 1960. In all respect it was well ahead of other states. Now the state is total mess. India and Hindus expected even a great Maratha dynasty after demise of Moghuls.
For Maratha rape and pillage , many bengali poets, intellectual have mentioned dark days in their state when Maratha used to loot while coming and going. One poet has written epic poem about this brutality.. His name was Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar, a Puneri Brahmin perhaps. Other refferences are from History by Majumdar & Sirkar and citation by Nirad Chaudhari. They all mentioned that their villages used to be pillaged by Marathas while going and returning.
As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians. Our oly hope now is Hazare and Kejriwal.
I forgot name of Rajput historians . Will look into.
Idesigner wrote: India expected lot more from Maharastra as that was a well administered state after split of 1960. In all respect it was well ahead of other states. Now the state is total mess. India and Hindus expected even a great Maratha dynasty after demise of Moghuls.
For Maratha rape and pillage , many bengali poets, intellectual have mentioned dark days in their state when Maratha used to loot while coming and going. One poet has written epic poem about this brutality.. His name was Bhaskar Pandit Kolhatkar, a Puneri Brahmin perhaps. Other refferences are from History by Majumdar & Sirkar and citation by Nirad Chaudhari. They all mentioned that their villages used to be pillaged by Marathas while going and returning.
As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians. Our oly hope now is Hazare and Kejriwal.
I forgot name of Rajput historians . Will look into.
The Marathas committed unspeakable atrocities on the helpless population of this district. An eye-witness, Vaneshwar Vidhyalankar, the court pandit of the Maharaja of Barddhaman wrote - ' Shahu Rajah's troops are niggard of pity, slayers of pregnant women and infants, of Brahmins and the poor, fierce in spirit, expert in robbing the property of every one and committing every kind of sinful act.
Nosuperstition all those stories you mantioned in Purans cant be authenticated by Shiv Purana or Vishnu Puran. Both Purans put their own diety at top and other as devotee, but it stops there.Later some people will add all kind of porno material to entertain themselves or demean others, or sometime out right forgery like Bhavisya Purana. I have read Brahma Purana and Bhagvat in detail. Cant find anything insulting about Shiva.Ofcourse Avtaras of Vishnu were shown worshipped by Shiva. Only stupid people will take any Puran stories seriously. One can be Hindu without believing in any puranic mumbo jumbo.Purans were written by some selfish brahmin priests for their own self interest to give permanent begging rights to their descendents.
When confronted with Vishnu, according to Skanda Purana, Vīrabhadra swallows his chakra and this causes Lord Vishnu to act wisely.[4]
Idesigner wrote:As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians.
In War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.
Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.
Fine. Your sources reflect the brutalities of the maratha empire. Marathas and brahmins are different even though both speak the same language i.e. marathi. I am not sure whether brahmins were involved in these acts but it seems brahmins were one of the victims of marathas..
Nosuperstition wrote:Idesigner wrote:As mentioned before, the brutality and lawlessness was the norm in those days.Moghuls, muslims, Pathans, Pindahra, small principalities,Thugs and lot others mad a profession out of loot and rape, extortion, kidnapping after fall of Moghul power.. We have to thank English for punishing or incorporating all of them. . They could have easily continued with Shivaji dynasty if they were not short sighted and after extortion like present day Maratha politicians.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/24/india.randeeprameshIn War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.
Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.
British too had their fair share of skeletons in the cupboard.A guy of the Old Forum said that we Brits razed down defiant African and Asian cities and towns without any hesitation and the egoes of those people were hurt as they could not swallow/digest the fact that despite numbers being on their side they had to cow down to the numerically inferior British after the wars.
According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.
According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.
However Puranas are also religious texts for Hindus.It is the Puranic stories and their characters that have found their way into the minds of ordinary Hindus along with the Ramayana and the Mahabharata even though the Shrutis( or Vedas )and Smritis are also Hindu holy books.
A line in the Mahabharata supposedly says that you must take into account about what the Shrutis,Smritis,Itihasas(read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata) and the Puranas say on a particular topic and finally act according to your own conscience.
pr126 wrote:Yohan wrote:Only USA has full 'freedom of expression' rights.
For now. This may change.
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