"kind" treatment of spouses

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
Nosuperstition
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Nosuperstition »

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tniv/SERVANTH.TXT

The above Christian/not-so Christian link uses words slavery and servanthood interchangeably.
Yohan wrote:
manohar wrote: By the way there is a big difference between Dasa=slave and shudra=servant.
What is the big difference, may I ask?

Could you also provide your Hindu caste credentials to establish that you are indeed permitted to discuss these topics, as the Hindu sacred laws demand.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... &start=255" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yohan who most probably is bishop K.P.Yohanan,Gospel for Asia also thinks that there is not much difference between slaves and servants.So wife is also a slave or servant who can be disposed of at will and that too torturously.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Nosuperstition »

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1156&p=57983&hilit ... ave#p57983" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1156&p=60391&hilit ... ave#p60391" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the King James version of the “New Testament,” the word “servant” appears 82 times. These 82 instances are derived from 5 different types of servants in the original Greek. In the English, they are doulos, diakonos, therapon, oiketes, and pais.

Speaking broadly;

doulos views a servant in relation to his master ["for one is your master, even Christ"];
diakonos, in relation to his work;
therapon, in relation to the dignity and freedom of serving his master [used of Moses in Hebrews 3:5];
oiketes, as a household servant; and
pais, as a boy (child) household servant.


When speaking of the bondman of Jesus the Christ, or the involuntarily dependant and voluntarily obedient slave under his worldly master, and their inter-connection to and protection under “The Law of Slaves,” it is the station of doulos that we speak of.

Doulos is defined by Trench, in part, as:

Of the five Greek words translated “servant” in the New Testament, doulos is the most common word. It designates one who, (a) was born into his condition of slavery, (b) one bound to his master as his slave, (c) one who was in a permanent relationship to his master, which relationship could only be broken by death, (d) one whose will was swallowed up in the will of his master [*1 Corinthians 7:23], and (e) one who served his master even to the extent that he disregarded his own interests [*Matthew 20:27, Mark 10:44]. This word was used in the first century as a designation of a class of slaves that represented a most abject, servile condition.
http://ecclesia.org/truth/slaves.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the Greeks indeed did have different words for slaves and servants.So a wife must just remain subservient,she does not possible come under the slave category and there might be no wife beating in Christianity.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

iffo
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by iffo »

Islam definately damage the brains. List to this donkey brain old dick head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=EGH ... =endscreen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by manfred »

Nosuperstition, indeed there are a great number of words in Greek for servant and slave.

δοῦλος is the common word for slave, δούλη is a female one. It can also mean servant, but it is almost always connected with not being free, with being the property of another.

διάκονος means "helper", our word "deacon" is derived from that. It is also a servant and could be a slave, but it does not have to be, it is someone helping out, maybe out of kindness, or because of family connections, or because of religious duties. In early Christian communities, the deacons and deaconesses looked after the poor, the widows and orphans and the sick.

The thing to remember that a paid or salaried "servant" was almost unheard of in antiquity. So, when we think of "servant" we think of butlers and maids, something you would not find back then.
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Garudaman
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Garudaman »

QS. 4:34. Men are in charge of women by
what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.[/quote]

QS. 38:43. And We granted him his family and a like [number] with them as mercy from Us and a reminder for those of understanding.

QS. 38:44. [We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].


strike/hit to advise ---> strike/hit which does not hurt/cause injury! :sml:

sum
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
QS. 38:44. [We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].

You and Allah have lost all credibility. Striking with a bunch of grass!!! You couldn`t make it up although Allah is capable of all things - even making you believe this blatant mind-numbing nonsense.

I can just imagine the wife standing there being struck with a bunch of grass and saying "I liked that - do it again". How on earth is that going to bring the wife into line? If that was all that was coming her way then she has nothing to fear. Of course she might die laughing at the futility of being struck with a bunch of grass.

Please do not leave FFI, Garudaman, as you are a godsend to us. Keep posting.

sum

frankie
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by frankie »

Garudaman:
Your "prophet"was a man of violence,who was a man of his time,i.e.7th century Arabia,when it was acceptable to use physical abuse for men to get their selfish,controlling ways over women.

Humanity now sees this for what it is,by making laws to stop this form of "use and abuse" of women,but it seems the Allah you believe in still finds it acceptable 4.34

Authentic Muslim sources show that Mohammed advocated and condoned wife beating,that is the hitting of wives,which we now call domestic abuse.

Could this be the reason many of the women in "safe space housing" are Muslim ?

Book 4, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?




Book 11, Number 2141: Abu Dawood
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:
Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.


Dawud Book 11, Number 2142 wrote:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a:

The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."


Sahih Bukhari vol. 7,no 715
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

Where is the love that is supposed to exist that a man should show towards his wife? And where is the Muslim rhetoric we hear so often "we treat our women with respect"?

They are both non existant,because there is none!

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manfred
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by manfred »

garudaman, would be be so kind and show me the phrase "bunch of grass" in the verse you quoted, in the original Arabic text?

I cannot find it...
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Garudaman
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Book 4, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

Sahih Bukhari vol. 7, no 715
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

Dawud Book 11, Number 2142 wrote:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
then those hadith either corrupt or false (not Sunnah), because contradict the Quran! :wot:
frankie wrote:Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a:

The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."
flogs a slave ---> contradict the values ​​of the Quran, which ordered do good/kind to slaves (QS. 4:36)! :nono1:

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Garudaman
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:garudaman, would be be so kind and show me the phrase "bunch of grass" in the verse you quoted, in the original Arabic text?

I cannot find it...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 8&verse=44" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in Arabic text is just "a bunch" (ضِغْثًا) no "grass", but I agree that tafsir, because it is about "strike/hit to advise", right? ;)

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manfred
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by manfred »

There is an interesting short clip of a Muslim cleric who explains wife beating to TV:

You can find it here

He says this:
Allah honoured wives by instating beatings.
How?

The prophet Mohammed said: "Don't beat her in the face, and do not make her ugly."
See how she is honoured!
If a husband beats his wife, he must not beat her in the face.
Even when he beats her he must not curse her.
This is incredible! He beats her to discipline her.
In addition there must be no more than ten beatings,and he must not break her bones, injure her,
break her teeth or poke her in the eye.
There is beating etiquette.
If he beats to discipline her, he must not raise his hand high,
he must beat her from chest level.
All these things to honour women.
She is in need of discipline.
How should the husband discipline her?
Through admonishment.
If she is not deterred, he should refuse to share a bed with her,
If she is not repentant, he should beat her, but there are rules to the beating.
It is forbidden to beat her in the face or make her ugly.
When you beat her, you must not curse her.
Islam forbids this. (before or afterwards is allowed)
With what should he beat her?
With his bare hand? With a rod?
If he beats her the beatings should not be hard, so that they do not leave a mark.
He can beat her with a short rod.
He must avoid beating he in the face or in places in the head where it hurts.
The beatings would be on the body and should not come one right after another.
Beatings are only allowed when the wife refuses to sleep with her husband.
What else can he do?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:Book 4, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

Sahih Bukhari vol. 7, no 715
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

Dawud Book 11, Number 2142 wrote:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
then those hadith either corrupt or false (not Sunnah), because contradict the Quran! :wot:
frankie wrote:Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a:

The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."
flogs a slave ---> contradict the values ​​of the Quran, which ordered do good/kind to slaves (QS. 4:36)! :nono1:

Garudaman:
contradict the values ​​of the Quran, which ordered do good/kind to slaves (QS. 4:36
Irrelevant,the Quran is full of contradictions,which are posted daily before you on this site.Even if it did have some significance,its just illustrates clearly how inconsistant your scriptures are,and therefore are a man-made prefabrication.

The so called "values" of the Quran are to be violent against anyone not accepting its commands,until "Islam is proclaimed over all religion"
This is what your sources tell you,your "prophet" was a man of violence,who advocated and condoned it.
then those hadith either corrupt or false (not Sunnah), because contradict the Quran!
You know that what you are saying is not factual because the quotes are taken from authentic Muslim sources,which Muslims themselves read. Reading the sheer attrocity of your scripture is I suspect, far too much "truth" for you to accept, but is nevertheless accepted as "true" by all your co-religionists.

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Garudaman
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
QS. 38:44. [We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].

You and Allah have lost all credibility. Striking with a bunch of grass!!! You couldn`t make it up although Allah is capable of all things - even making you believe this blatant mind-numbing nonsense.

I can just imagine the wife standing there being struck with a bunch of grass and saying "I liked that - do it again". How on earth is that going to bring the wife into line? If that was all that was coming her way then she has nothing to fear. Of course she might die laughing at the futility of being struck with a bunch of grass.

Please do not leave FFI, Garudaman, as you are a godsend to us. Keep posting.

sum
are you forget, if women have higher pain endurance than men, but have more sensitive feeling than men? ;)

sum
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
are you forget, if women have higher pain endurance than men, but have more sensitive feeling than men?

You really are desperate aren`t you? How you can bring such infantile statements to the debate shows what you are made of. The main point is that the Koran states that men can beat their wives. Do you agree that men should be permitted to beat their wives?

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Garudaman »

yeah, for the purpose of advising, so of course with strike/hit that does not hurt/cause injury...

QS. 4:19. O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.

...& for serious mistakes! :*)

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Sten
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Sten »

Garudaman wrote:so of course with strike/hit that does not hurt/cause injury...
lol
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frankie
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:yeah, for the purpose of advising, so of course with strike/hit that does not hurt/cause injury...

QS. 4:19. O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.

...& for serious mistakes! :*)
Garudaman:
Your "religious"teachings command you to be violent towards all non Muslims,they tell you to fight people until either you or they are killed,to claim victory for your false god.Quran 9.111
Your role model "prophet" shows you how this violence should be put into action,Bukhari Book 52 volume 4.Fighting in the cause of Allah(Jihad)

You are following teachings that command you to fight, kill and subjugate people that don't believe in what you believe e.g.Quran 9.29.

Islam is the only belief system that tells its followers to do these crimes against humanity in the name of a divine entity.

Why do you follow teachings that command violence?

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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by Ariel »

Muslims in Saudi Arabia know how to take care of their wives. They treat them if they are precious gems they do not want to lose. Saudi women’s male guardians began receiving text messages on their phones informing them when women under their custody leave the country.
‘Where’s my wife?’ Electronic SMS tracker notifies Saudi husbands

Denied the right to travel without consent from their male guardians and banned from driving, women in Saudi Arabia are now monitored by an electronic system that tracks any cross-border movements.

Since last week, Saudi women’s male guardians began receiving text messages on their phones informing them when women under their custody leave the country, even if they are travelling together.
Manal al-Sherif, who became the symbol of a campaign launched last year urging Saudi women to defy a driving ban, began spreading the information on Twitter, after she was alerted by a couple.

The husband, who was travelling with his wife, received a text message from the immigration authorities informing him that his wife had left the international airport in Riyadh.

“The authorities are using technology to monitor women,” said columnist Badriya al-Bishr, who criticised the “state of slavery under which women are held” in the ultra-conservative kingdom.

Women are not allowed to leave the kingdom without permission from their male guardian, who must give his consent by signing what is known as the “yellow sheet” at the airport or border.

The move by the Saudi authorities was swiftly condemned on social network Twitter -- a rare bubble of freedom for millions in the kingdom -- with critics mocking the decision.

“Hello Taliban, herewith some tips from the Saudi e-government!” read one post.

“Why don’t you cuff your women with tracking ankle bracelets too?” wrote Israa.

“Why don’t we just install a microchip into our women to track them around?” joked another.

“If I need an SMS to let me know my wife is leaving Saudi Arabia, then I’m either married to the wrong woman or need a psychiatrist,” tweeted Hisham.
The trigger

But what provoked the new control method? Local media has reported that controversy caused by the escape of a Saudi woman to Sweden in recent month triggered the move.

The Saudi woman was reported to have converted to Christianity and fled the country, but she denied earlier reports of her conversion and said she wants to return to Saudi Arabia, local daily Al-Yaum reported in July.

The 30-year-old woman also denied that she appeared in a YouTube video posted on July 10 where a veiled woman who was thought to be her claims to have converted to Christianity after having a dream.

“I am a Muslim, I’m fasting in Ramadan and I will not change my religion until judgment day,” she told the newspaper.

The woman said she was facing some family problem when her boss, a Lebanese-national, convinced her that the solution to her problems was to leave Saudi Arabia to a freer country.

“A Lebanese man and another Saudi colleague helped me flee Saudi Arabia to Bahrain, and from there to Qatar before going onwards to Lebanon,” she said. She alleges that when she arrived in Beirut she was taken to a monastery where she was asked to work as a maid.

The woman’s father filed a lawsuit against the two men for helping his daughter leave the country without his knowledge. The Lebanese man was reportedly jailed Monday in the city of Khobar on the eastern coast of Saudi Arabia.

The kingdom applies a strict interpretation of Shariah, or Islamic law, and is the only country in the world where women are not allowed to drive.

No law specifically forbids women in Saudi Arabia from driving, but the interior minister formally banned them after 47 women were arrested and punished after demonstrating in cars in November 1990.

Last year, King Abdullah granted women the right to vote and run in the 2015 municipal elections, a historic first for the country.

In January, the 89-year-old monarch appointed Sheikh Abdullatif Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, a moderate, to head the notorious religious police commission, which enforces the kingdom’s severe version of sharia law.

Following his appointment, Sheikh banned members of the commission from harassing Saudi women over their behaviour and attire, raising hopes a more lenient force will ease draconian social constraints in the country.
But the kingdom’s “religious establishment” is still to blame for the discrimination of women in Saudi Arabia, says liberal activist Suad Shemmari.

“Saudi women are treated as minors throughout their lives even if they hold high positions,” said Shemmari, who believes “there can never be reform in the kingdom without changing the status of women and treating them” as equals to men.

But the many restrictions on women have led to high rates of female unemployment, officially estimated at around 30 percent.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 51255.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

Post by pr126 »

the ultra-conservative kingdom
Newspeak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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