The New Testament is unauthentic.

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Ghaith
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The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Very interesting to know how unreliable the New Testament is :ehh: The earliest mention of any of the 4 gospels is Papias 130-150Ad the earliest manuscript is Rylands Library Papyrus P52 which dates back to the year 100-150 most likely later than 117 because the text is strongly Hadrianic. Justin Martyr made more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels. Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew while the one Christians have today is in greek. The Gospels are written in Greek while Jesus spoke Hebrew. The verses after Mark 16:8 are in doubt and 1 John 5:7 is an interpolation. Originally Peshitta excluded certain disputed books 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Wow :-|

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manfred
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by manfred »

Jesus did not speak Hebrew. He will have known Hebrew biblical passages. The language of Judea during the time of Jesus was Aramaic. Many people would have known some Greek, used as a sort of link language, and to a lesser extent, Latin.

The three synoptic gospels, including Mathew, are in Greek, but they may have a common source.

Image

It is highly unlikely that there ever was a HEBREW gospel, Mathew or otherwise. Ireneus and Eusebius seem to suggest this, a long time later, but there is no evidence to that effect. These two writers merely quote Papias, another early writer. If Mathew's gospel was translated several times, we would expect a great number of variations in the text. In fact we find very few. Also, by the the the gospels were written Hebrew was a language for scribes and priests, not spoken in everyday life, or even understood by many. So that idea is not right, I think...


Now, the real question in this thread is quite different:

Does this assertion you make prove that the Qur'an is "reliable"? If not, why even mention it?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Jesus did not speak Hebrew. He will have known Hebrew biblical passages. The language of Judea during the time of Jesus was Aramaic. Many people would have known some Greek, used as a sort of link language, and to a lesser extent, Latin.
Jesus would most likely have given his parables in aramaic making your argument about the link language ussless :whistling:
The three synoptic gospels, including Mathew, are in Greek, but they may have a common source.
Out of the 300+ Gospels before the councile of nicea im sure many of the gospels had common source and many where different ^^
it is highly unlikely that there ever was a HEBREW gospel,
"For Matthew composed the logia [sayings] in Hebrew style; but each recorded them as he was able"`Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, Chapter 39.15-16 :whistling:
Ireneus and Eusebius seem to suggest this, a long time later, but there is no evidence to that effect.
HAHA :lotpot: There is tons of evidence. Even the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew still exist and is used by a sect called Ebionites. So we have many Hebrew gospels Gospel of the Ebionites, Gospel according to the Hebrews, Gospel of the Nazarenes. Making that statement is very stupid because the jewish sects would most likely have written in Hebrew.
The three synoptic gospels, including Mathew, are in Greek, but they may have a common source.
There are also tons of contradictions between the 4 cannonical gospels manfred.
If Mathew's gospel was translated several times, we would expect a great number of variations in the text
Compare the Gospel of the ebionites with your own gospel and you find them.
In fact we find very few.
Of the greek MS sure.
Also, by the the the gospels were written Hebrew was a language for scribes and priests, not spoken in everyday life, or even understood by many. So that idea is not right, I think..
I refuted that above manfred.

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Now, the real question in this thread is quite different:
Tu quoque? No problem it shows me how little youve studied about Islam.
Does this assertion you make prove that the Qur'an is "reliable"? If not, why even mention it?
Lets se Puins last statement on the Sana Manuscripts

"The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:

Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
Quran next to Qrn
Simahum next to Simhum

In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common."



Also have a read at this manfred its a good read.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... /soth.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

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manfred
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by manfred »

As usual you have refuted nothing at all, sigh...
Gospel of the Ebionites
Epiphanius mistakenly identifies it as the "Hebrew" gospel, believing it to be a truncated and modified version of the Gospel of Matthew. The text is a gospel harmony of the Synoptic Gospels composed in Greek with various expansions and abridgments reflecting the theology of the writer. Distinctive features of the text include the absence of the virgin birth and genealogy of Jesus, an adoptionist Christology in which Jesus is chosen to be God's son at the time of his baptism, Jesus' appointed task of abolishing the Jewish sacrifices, and an advocacy of the practice of vegetarianism.
Kloppenborg (1994) "The Gospel of the Ebionites" in The Complete Gospels
Your "Hebrew" gospel is a Greek harmony of the existing synoptic gospels in use in a small heretical Christian sect.

As to your comment about the yemeni quranic texts, I am not interested in a youtube Islamic propaganda video. Let's see the texts.

The idea that the current quran is exactly preserve is ludicrously silly.The idea that is has anything to do with God is highly offensive to anyone believing in God.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Your "Hebrew" gospel is a Greek harmony of the existing synoptic gospels in use in a small heretical Christian sect.
:whistling:
"Those who are called Ebionites accept that God made the world. However, their opinions with respect to the Lord are quite similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use Matthew's gospel only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the Law." - Irenaeus, Haer 1.26.2

Eusebius of Caesarea wrote that they used only the Gospel of the Hebrews Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, IV, 21, 8

James R. Edwards and Bodley's Librarian Edward Nicholson claims that there was only one Hebrew gospel in circulation,Matthew's Gospel of the Hebrews,They also note that the title Gospel of the Ebionites, was never used by anyone in the early Church

You attacked the wrong gospel Manfred hahahahahahahahahahahaha :lotpot:

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

But there is more my dear Manfred.

Epiphanius contended that the gospel the Ebionites used, was written by Matthew and called the Gospel of the Hebrews. Epiphanius, Panarion 30.3.7

:whistling: Most scholars in the 20th Century identified the Gospel of the Nazarenes as distinct from the Gospel according to the Hebrews and Gospel of the Ebionites Craig A. Evans Ancient texts for New Testament studies: a guide to the background literature ISBN 978-1-56563-409-1 2005 "The Jewish Gospels. With one or two notable dissenters, most scholars in the last century have followed Philipp Vielhauer and Georg Strecker (in Hennecke and Schneemelcher NTApoc), and more recently A.F.J. Klijn (1992), in extrapolating from the church fathers three distinct extracanonical Jewish gospels: the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of the Ebionites, and the Gospel of the Hebrews. A recent study by Peter Lebrecht Schmidt (1998), however, has called this near consensus into question. Critically assessing the discussion from Schmidtke to Klijn, Schmidt thinks that originally there was only one Jewish gospel, probably written in Aramaic about 100 CE, called the "Gospel according to the Hebrews," which was subsequently... " cf. Hans-Josef Klauck Apocryphal gospels: an introduction 2003 p37

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

As to your comment about the yemeni quranic texts, I am not interested in a youtube Islamic propaganda video. Let's see the texts.
Why dont you watch and than later decide if its propaganda or not :D ?

That much for John 8:32 eh?

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manfred
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by manfred »

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
I don't think John was referring to Muslim propaganda when wrote that.

Maybe he was thinking of Mohammed and various Muslim apologists when he said this: (8:44)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

manfred wrote:
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
I don't think John was referring to Muslim propaganda when wrote that.

Maybe he was thinking of Mohammed and various Muslim apologists when he said this: (8:44)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Im afraid John is just something the Churche father artibuted to the 4 gospel writer :emb:

And for the verse please have enough respect for the 4th canonical gospel not to abuse it.
John 8:41-42

41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

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manfred
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by manfred »

Yos, the "gospel of the Hebrews" was for the "Hebrews". It was also sometimes called, for that reason, the "Hebrew gospel". It is also an apocrypha text, based on Mathew, and it is written in Greek, and about 100 years after Mathew, at least.

It seems that to this day Muslims have trouble, like Mohammed, to distinguish between apocrypha and biblical texts.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Yos, the "gospel of the Hebrews" was for the "Hebrews". It was also sometimes called, for that reason, the "Hebrew gospel". It is also an apocrypha text, based on Mathew, and it is written in Greek, and about 100 years after Mathew, at least.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha :lol: And no source to back it up either. No Manfred your Gospel of Matthew in your canonical gospel is a copy/translation of the Gospel of the hebrews and i got all the proof to back it up.

Epiphanius contended that the gospel the Ebionites used, was written by Matthew and called the Gospel of the Hebrews. Epiphanius,
Panarion 30.3.7
Jerome records that it was regarded by many of the Nazarenes and Ebionites as the original version of Matthew: "In evangelio quo utuntur Nazaraeni et Ebionitae, quod nuper in Graecum de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus, et quod vocatur a plerisque Matthaei authenticum
Albertus Frederik Johannes Klijn Jewish-Christian Gospel tradition 1992 p88
Some authors, such as Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Jerome identify specifically Matthew as the author of the Gospel of the Hebrews
Schoemaker p.199 1904
They call it the Gospel of the Hebrews, for in truth, Matthew alone of the New Covenant writers expounded and declared the gospel in Hebrew using Hebrew script."
(Panarion, 30.3.7)
Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis in Asia Minor during the first half of the 2nd century, writes that Matthew composed the logia in the Hebrew tongue and each one interpreted them as he was able. He also notes that the story of the Sinful Woman was originally from the Gospel of the Hebrews
Bart Ehrman (1999) Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, Oxford University Press, p.43 Eusebius, Church History 3 . 39 . 16
Pantaenus, Origen and other Church Fathers also believed Matthew wrote the Gospel of the Hebrews (Church History 5.10.3, 6.25.4) None of these Church Fathers asserted that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek
Bart Ehrman (1999) Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, Oxford University Press, p.43
erome makes frequent reference to the Nazarene Gospel of the Hebrews being composed in Hebrew in his commentaries (Commentary on Isaiah 4, Commentary on Ezekiel 16:3, Commentary on Isaiah 40:9, Commentary on Micah 7:6) Jerome considered that the Gospel of the Hebrews, was written in the Chaldee and Syriac(Aramaic) language but in Hebrew script. Jerome claimed to have translated the whole into Greek (Against Pelagius 3:2) but this is doubted by many scholars since Jerome also made this claim about the Old Testament before he had actually done so. Jerome claimed that a Hebrew original of the Nazarene text was preserved in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilus of Caesarea had gathered.(Illustrious Men 2"). In recent years some modern scholars have given more credence to Jerome's testimony.
Peter Lebrecht Schmidt "'Und es war geschrieben auf Hebraisch, Griechisch, und Lateinisch: Hiernymus, das Hebraer-Evangelium, und seine mitterlaterliche Rezeption," Filologia Mediolatina 5 (1998), 49-93

Christians dont want to admit they have a translation of the gospel of hebrews :cry:

You gotta do your homework Manfred :nono1:

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

My advise to you manfred is instead of hating and making up lies about Islam here you go and read your bible and learn about it.

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manfred
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by manfred »

yawn... read for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_the_Hebrews

In addition, we have:
The complete text of Matthew in Hebrew is preserved in a lengthy,
polemical treatise composed in the fourteenth century by Shem Tob ben
Isaac (sometimes called Ibn Shaprut). Shem Tob’s purpose was to refute the
Christian Gospel story, point by point.
Jewish versions of the gospel of Mathew, by Dr Craig Evans.

My advise to you yos is, to stop attacking other religions with fabricated ideas but to look at Islam instead.

Somehow you don't seem to get it into your head that whatever you say about any other religion, be it true or false (mostly false in you case), it does not change the nature of Islam.

It is only because Islam is indefensible that you opt for trying to attack other religions. Effectively you are saying "Ok, my own religion is a load of nonsense I cannot defend, so the best I can do is to try and dig some holes in other religions. If I make them look back, my own religion will look less silly."

Well, yos, that tack is not working at all.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Hahahahaha manfred youve ignored all the sources that pretty much t proves The gospel of hebrews is the true gospel of Matthew and your is a translation. See how you cant face the truth instead of having look at some of the sources i posted you posted a wikipedia link subhanallah. Lets go to your link and expose your unauthentic gospel from there.

The Gospel of the Hebrews (Greek: τὸ καθ' Ἑβραίους εὐαγγέλιον), commonly shortened from the Gospel according to the Hebrews or simply called the Hebrew Gospel, is a hypothesised lost gospel, or lost version of Matthew's gospel, preserved in seven or more fragments within the writings of the Church Fathers. A major source regarding the Gospel is the testimony of Jerome who received a copy from a Nazarene group while he was at Chalcis between 373 and 376.[4] Jerome records that it was regarded by many of the Nazarenes and Ebionites as the original version of Matthew: "In evangelio quo utuntur Nazaraeni et Ebionitae, quod nuper in Graecum de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus, et quod vocatur a plerisque Matthaei authenticum."[5]There was a strong tradition in the early church that the apostle Matthew had written a gospel in the Hebrew language. This association is mentioned by a number of early Christian writers, including Papias, Origen, and Eusebius. Some authors, such as Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Jerome identify specifically Matthew as the author of the Gospel of the Hebrews.[19] Jerome relates that the Nazarenes and Ebionites believed that the Gospel of the Hebrews was the original Gospel of Matthew (Commentary on Matthew 2 . 12) Epiphanius in the Panarion wrote that, "They [Jewish Christians] too accept Matthew's gospel and like the followers of Cerinthus and Merinthus, they use it alone. They call it the Gospel of the Hebrews, for in truth, Matthew alone of the New Covenant writers expounded and declared the gospel in Hebrew using Hebrew script." (Panarion, 30.3.7)Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis in Asia Minor during the first half of the 2nd century, writes that Matthew composed the logia in the Hebrew tongue and each one interpreted them as he was able. He also notes that the story of the Sinful Woman was originally from the Gospel of the Hebrews.[20][21] Apart from Papias' comment, we do not hear about the author of the Gospel until Irenaeus around 185 who remarks that Matthew issued a written Gospel of the Hebrews (Against Heresies 3.1.1) Pantaenus, Origen and other Church Fathers also believed Matthew wrote the Gospel of the Hebrews (Church History 5.10.3, 6.25.4) None of these Church Fathers asserted that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_the_Hebrews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hahahahahah you didnt even read it did you Manfred? :lotpot:

The complete text of Matthew in Hebrew is preserved in a lengthy,
polemical treatise composed in the fourteenth century by Shem Tob ben
Isaac (sometimes called Ibn Shaprut). Shem Tob’s purpose was to refute the
Christian Gospel story, point by point.
Why did you stop? Post the whole thing or didnt you like what comes after hahahaha :lotpot: `?
The complete text of Matthew in Hebrew is preserved in a lengthy,
polemical treatise composed in the fourteenth century by Shem Tob ben
Isaac (sometimes called Ibn Shaprut). Shem Tob’s purpose was to refute the
Christian Gospel story, point by point. Although disputed, Shem Tob may
actually preserve an independent textual tradition of Matthew, possibly
related to a “Gospel in Hebrew letters,” mentioned by the second-century
church father Papias. If so, what does it tell us about the Jewish believers
who preserved it?
Hahahahahaha and its gets better
Shem Tob’s Hebrew Matthew is based upon neither the Vulgate nor Byzantine Greek, which, if it had been
translated in the fourteenth century, it would have been. It is an important
witness to a much earlier tradition, possibly one that is in some way related
to a Hebrew version of Matthew that early Church Fathers discuss.
http://craigaevans.com/Jewish%20Matthew.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Hahahahahahaha what you posted has nothing to do with the Gospels of Hebrew manfred, its irrelavant so why did you post it? Did you wishfull think it was talking about the Gospels of the Hebrews
My advise to you yos is, to stop attacking other religions with fabricated ideas
Hahahahahahahaha.
Somehow you don't seem to get it into your head that whatever you say about any other religion, be it true or false (mostly false in you case), it does not change the nature of Islam.
Hahahahaha ok manfred who said it had anything to do with Islam?
It is only because Islam is indefensible that you opt for trying to attack other religions.
"The New Testament is unauthentic." I hope i dont have to tell you(an admin) to stay on the topic manfred hahahahahaha?
Effectively you are saying "Ok, my own religion is a load of nonsense I cannot defend
Hahahahahahahahahaha when you get schooled by an High school kid on something you have a Thd in you decide to start attacking his personal belief in his faith. Come on manfred you can do better than that.
If I make them look back, my own religion will look less silly."
Hahahahahahahaha manfred your the admi of the most anti-islamic forum in the world. Your shooting you self in the foot badly hahahahahaha.
Well, yos, that tack is not working at all.
Hahahahahaha your a funny fella manfred im having a blast hahahahaha

Make sure you read your own sources next time before you post them might save you the embarrasment ;)

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Ariel
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ariel »

Dear Yos. You should stop with this "Hahahahahaha "stuf if you want people to take you serious. You are not a child anymore, so stop acting like one.
I say this in your own interest. Believe me.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Ariel wrote:Dear Yos. You should stop with this "Hahahahahaha "stuf if you want people to take you serious. You are not a child anymore, so stop acting like one.
I say this in your own interest. Believe me.
Read first and understand why i laugh at manfred. Before making a comment ariel.

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Ariel
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ariel »

Yos1994 wrote:
Read first and understand why i laugh at manfred. Before making a comment ariel.
I have read it, and it does not matter if Manfred in your eyes is wrong, but your Hahahahahahahahaha's don't make his post more wrong. That you should realize. If I ( lets speak for myself) see all those silly Hahahahahahahahaha's I do not want to read your answer anymore, and that is a shame, because even if I often disagree with you, your words are also valuable. So don't spoil your posts with the hahahahahahaha's.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

Ghaith
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ghaith »

Ariel wrote:
Yos1994 wrote:
Read first and understand why i laugh at manfred. Before making a comment ariel.
I have read it, and it does not matter if Manfred in your eyes is wrong, but your Hahahahahahahahaha's don't make his post more wrong. That you should realize. If I ( lets speak for myself) see all those silly Hahahahahahahahaha's I do not want to read your answer anymore, and that is a shame, because even if I often disagree with you, your words are also valuable. So don't spoil your posts with the hahahahahahaha's.
Is he perhaps right in your eyes :huh: ?

This is not a matter of opinion its a matter of history and facts.

Im laughing at manfred because he had made a claim that he has very high degress in theology yet he made some very uneducated statement.
Im not insulting him.

And who are you to talk mrs mossad agent?

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Ariel
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Re: The New Testament is unauthentic.

Post by Ariel »

Yos1994 wrote:
And who are you to talk mrs mossad agent?
I am a wise old woman you should listen too my friend.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

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