manfred wrote:The problems in this scenario are the same for all people, religious or not. They are fiendishly, hideously difficult...
manfred wrote:Hi Iffo,
A healthy pregnancy, if left to its own devices, results in the birth of a human being.
Suppose that the cause of the pregnancy is indeed a rape.
Then we have a number of serious questions, none have an easy answer...
1) Are children the absolute property of of parents? For example, should parents be allowed to beat or kill children when they feel like it without consequences, as in ancient Rome? Or do children have rights and parents have duties?
2) What about a foetus? If left alone, it will eventually be a child. When exactly can a foetus be called effectively a child? At conception? At birth? At some other point in-between? Why at that point? Do parents have a responsibility towards a foetus?
3) What crime did the foetus commit to automatically say it can/should be killed? If the mother does not want the child, can she decide alone that it should die? Or should she consider carrying it and then give it up for adoption, as she did not want it? There is a tricky balancing act between the rights and welfare of the woman and that of the child...
The problems in this scenario are the same for all people, religious or not. They are fiendishly, hideously difficult...
Many religious conservative people see the the rights of the child and the duties of the mother more important, so you get comments like the one you quoted.
It is a VERY horrible predicament to find to be pregnant after a rape. Emotions, particularly anger and depression will be strong. A victim of rape needs a lot of care are support in a whole host of areas. How to deal with the pregnancy is just one of them, but both an important one and a difficult one. Bear in mind that the decision on that will also have to be lived with.
So, what is your take on that, Iffo...
A woman got pregnant after a rape. She feels angry, violated and dirty. She did not want to be pregnant and she certainly does not want this child, a daily reminder of her nastiest day in her life so far. She does not want to see her attacker every day in the face of a baby, HER baby... But what is the foetus guilty of to deny it its future life? Maybe that particular baby will turn out to be another mother Theresa, another Einstein, another Michelangelo....
You got talking to her and listened. What would you say to her?
manfred wrote:Given God the blame for things we do is a common but totally inappropriate approach to ethics. It is not very different from blaming the devil, a similar lame approach.
It is the inshallah approach to life. We don't need to try to improve our own situation, it is futile anyway, God will have to sort all it out. We are not responsible for anything, as all things are pre-planned. So I stole food in the market, well, I was hungry and God gave me the opportunity. So what is wrong with that? I raped a woman? Well I was horny and God sent her to temptingly walk passed me. Allah gave me the opportunity, so I would be insulting Allah in refusing it.... I got caught? Well, Allah is angry with me about something else, otherwise he would not allow me to get caught. It's probably because I missed Friday prayers... Anyway, he guides who he wants...
Now, what does a man mean who says that an ensuing pregnancy after a rape is "God's will"? He certainly does not try to sanction rape. He is trying, in his own way, to emphasize that the growing baby is a creature of God in its own right. It is not to be disposed of lightly.
manfred wrote:1) Are children the absolute property of of parents? For example, should parents be allowed to beat or kill children when they feel like it without consequences, as in ancient Rome? Or do children have rights and parents have duties?
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
LCD wrote:Your display of the law code of isreal, i don't have to debunk. Those people lived under god as is described in the section, and he protected them and fed them, and they knew the rules.
Although their exact status of slaves varied from the founding of Rome to its eventual decline,
Several emperors began to grant more rights to slaves as the empire grew. Claudius announced that if a slave was abandoned by his master, he became free. Nero granted slaves the right to complain against their masters in a court. And under Antoninus Pius, a master who killed a slave without just cause could be tried for homicide.[50] Legal protection of slaves continued to grow as the empire expanded.[citation needed] It became common throughout the mid to late 2nd century AD to allow slaves to complain of cruel or unfair treatment by their owners.[51]
iffo wrote:So the way I understand one should not thank God for anything in christanity because god is not doing anything, is it correct?
I don't know why people than say "Thanks God" . And say Jesus loves me, does Jesus love Christains?
manfred wrote:iffo wrote:So the way I understand one should not thank God for anything in christanity because god is not doing anything, is it correct?
I don't know why people than say "Thanks God" . And say Jesus loves me, does Jesus love Christains?
Did I say that? Of course people thank God for all sorts of things. I meant to say perhaps it would be better to be thankful for ALL things, even those we do not appreciate.
Does God love Christians?
Christians would say God has shown love to all mankind. ALL are loved.
Like saying 'thank god' I can say thank god for health if he has intervene and given me good health but why will I say thank god for sickness? Or for giving me cancer? It will make no sense, would it.
Christianity also like Islam have the concept of paradise/hell, who will go to hell according to Christianity ?
manfred wrote:Like saying 'thank god' I can say thank god for health if he has intervene and given me good health but why will I say thank god for sickness? Or for giving me cancer? It will make no sense, would it.
All things that can happen in our lives in reality have both a value to us and a challenge. I don't think it is right to be selective in being grateful for some things and not others. You may remember when the old pope John Paul II died. One of the last things he said was to say thank you to God for his sickness and imminent death, as it seemed to him that these things made people look closer at his life and work, and may bring some closer to God. If Jesus did not spurn suffering and death, maybe we also should search a little more for the good things that come through even death.
The Buddha was absolutely right when he pointed out that we only suffer because of our desire. Want nothing at all, accept all with equal happiness, and look for the value in all things.Christianity also like Islam have the concept of paradise/hell, who will go to hell according to Christianity ?
While Christianity have concepts like paradise and hell, they are fundamentally different from Islam. First of all "paradise" is usually only used to refer to the garden of Eden of the story of Adam and Eve.
I think I have gone over that many times here... ALL are invited to join God, all mankind, not just one religion or another. In order for there to be a real invitation, it must be possible to refuse it. Hell is a place God "keeps away" from, to allow those who have finally and utterly rejected God's call to join him to get what they have chosen.
Suppose you are repeatedly asked to come to a journey. You refuse, over and over. Eventually the journey takes place without you. So you got you wish, you could stay at home. However, when you learn how exciting the journey is from people who went, you get upset.
The suffering is hell is not torture, it is caused by the realisation of what might have been.
Atheists often claim that Christians believe they will go to hell. This is not the case, at least not generally. It is not our beliefs or lack of them that determines such issues, it is who we are, and what we choose to do with your life. Beliefs don't automatically turn people into good or bad people, it is their actions that do that. With or without belief in God, people can make good and bad life choices.
While Christianity have concepts like paradise and hell, they are fundamentally different from Islam. First of all "paradise" is usually only used to refer to the garden of Eden of the story of Adam and Eve.
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