Sensible people v senseless people

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:
Mughal wrote:The main point is definition of word sunnah and here is what I make of it

Word Sunnah is from root SEEN, NOON and NOON. It has many meanings eg path, tradition, example, habit, age, era, formula, rule, law etc etc.
Mughal, you're at it again. You say that the word "Sunnah" has at least 9 meanings. In English, you might look up a word in Roget's Thesaurus and find a list of 9 or more other words that have similar meanings. That does not mean that all the words have the same meaning, or that the original word means the same as all the others. If what you say is correct then Arabic really is a broken language. Whereas it cannot be as ambiguous as that or, as Manfred has pointed out, conversation would be impossible. I'll allow, though, that the three rasm root might be capable as being read as all nine - in which case the raw written classical Arabic - and so the Koran - is all that is broken. Which is quite enough to undermine the Koran's credibility - Allah should have chosen a more advanced language: probably Latin and revealed his book to the Romans!
Dear fernando, certain words can be used in context for each other that is all they are not 100% replacements and I have explained this already. Dictionaries are not words of God but what people make of words and based upon use of words people compile dictionaries and so many words are still left out that author of a dictionary has not come across. It does not means those meaning or uses did not exist are will not make sense. All things only make sense for their set out purpose. When e step aside from the purpose of things then they make no sense eg dictionaries are books but they are story books so taking them as story books will render them useless. Likewise books serve their purposes for which they are written. School text books are written for that purpose and other books for their purposes. All we can do is see if they serve their purposes or not or how well they serve their purposes.

regards and all the best.
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skynightblaze
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

I will reply to only a few points because rest are not worth at all.
Mughal wrote:Dear skynightblaze, if I may say so, till you get the context of things your criticism is aimless. I am not saying I disagree with everyone about everything, I was not born all knowing I learned everything from other people and am still learning and will continue doing so. If you did not understand this much from my reply then what else can I say?
I have criticized your claims about quran telling us science or it as a way of living. How is this criticism aimless ? What has that got to do with you disagreeing with everyone completely or partially?

You claim here that you are still learning but sadly that is not the case at all. Is discarding historical proofs that disprove quran a sign of learning ?? If you were learning you would accept that quran too is a corrupt book but are you doing that??

You may not be disagreeing with everything being said by people before but you disagreeing radically on many points like for e.g you claim islam teaches peace while we claim it teaches violence.

Mughal wrote: Before we can really fight against the quran we need to find out what is supposed purpose of the quran and how it is supposed to fulfil its that stated purpose. Only then we can sit and think whether whether it makes sense or it does not.
You are talking as if people are criticizing islam without even reading the quran. The main purpose of islam is world domination and that is to be fulfilled with force and we have come to this conclusion after understanding what quran says.WE understand this after reading 9:29 which is one of the offensive verses of the quran. So now tell me how am I wrong here?
Mughal wrote: This is the main aim of the quran to lead us to peaceful life but if we do not like that then we can live as we like but we cannot avoid consequences the quran warns us against.
what part of 9:29 sounds peaceful to you ?
Mughal wrote: So far the quran has not been proven wrong so if we still want to continue on our own ways then results is not going to be any different. An experiment always produces same results if all the factors remain the same.
Who told you quran has not been proven wrong? Take one of the sample errors here. Quran claims that everything is produced in pairs but sadly there are a few creatures who are not in pairs. There are countless errors and not one. The author of quran cant even write 10 lines coherently at a stretch.
Mughal wrote: As for my qualifications, they do not matter. What matters is what I am stating. If it is sensible take it otherwise ignore it.This is the way the quran is ie if you like what it has to say accept it if you do not, good luck to you.
What if you are wrong? Everything that you say is a lie in that case so why should I let your mislead people? Finally quran does not say that accept what you like. Atleast dont tell lies to people here who have studied the quran. Quran shoves everything up your throat and demands belief or else threatens us with hell fire.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:Dear yeezevee, thanks for raising your point that why I brought in dr israr. I am trying to show that islamic principles are accepted by all not just me but the difference is that these people then contradict the very principles by going against them due to their lack of understanding of the whole picture or may be that is what their objective is.

I do not bring others to show I agree with them but that they agree on the point I am making even though then they contradict themselves as well.

Concerning how shariah laws should be formed dr israr agrees and so do all the muillahs.
They also agree that law brought in by prophet are shariah law but because those laws based upon purpose and reason for application therefore sunnah is not that they are laws but that how they are formed. In short the way prophet shown to legislate is sunnah not what he legislated because laws change with changes in purpose and changes in reason for their application.
..................................................

Thanks for giving me opportunity to explain things a bit more.

regards and all the best.
sure Mughal., you must have FULL FREEDOM and full opportunity to explain your point of view ..

So you think Mr. israr was a mullah?? how about these guys??




Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Dear yeezevee, as far as I have understood muslims they can be categorised in four main categories.

1)Those who take islam as a MAZHAB (mostly soofies not involved in politics at all instead remain busy with invented ritualism in the name of islam) A great majority of people. Known as grave worshippers and superstitious among stricter muslims due to believing that prophets and saint, jinns and magicians are given supernatural powers by God. This is why they visit religous leaders and and graves of prophets and saints in order seek supernatural solutions for their worldly problems.

2)Those who take islam more as mazhab but less as a deen (practising muslims as opposed to soofies) Again a great number of people not really interested in what is going on in the world. These people think islam is just ritualism and practicing islam is as if limited to SLAAH, SAWM and ZAKAAH and HAJJ.

3)Those who take islam more as a deen and less as mazhab (extremist muslims) A sizeable minority but politically very active because to them that is islam. These people are ritualistic as well as worldly wise.

4)Those who take islam only and only as a deen and not as a mazhab at all. A tiny minority. Rational muslims. Muslims take them for secularists due to their stance against mullah made shariah laws and secularists take them for religious but in actual fact are neither religious nor secular but follow evidence in light of the scripture. They know full well that unless overall social, political, cultural, economic, ideologies, systems, structures and practices are correct nothing else can work but in order to put things right people need to be educated and brought on board to work together for the benefit of themselves as a community.

The whole world is mazhabi janooni not just muslims. However most of the muslims are mazhabi janooni as well. You will agree that the word is full of irrational people hence almost whole world is religiously minded and atheists are very much less in numbers but even less is the number of those who are properly deeni people. This poses a question as to why this is the case.

In my view it is because when people are born they are born in a society and they grow in that society. As we all know we are not born knowing everything. It takes a whole life time experience to find one's feet yet most of the people are not bothered with things. This is the main reason world situations do not change that quickly for betterment. Most people die as they were born kind of situation. Fewer ever bother to understand their own selves and the societies they rise from. Fewer still ever do anything that puts them at odds with their societies so that they may try and understand what is going on. So very few people in any society understand their own societies and try to see what is wrong with them and how that wrong may be put right. So people are not that insightful rather they just participate for their own private reasons in society. This why revolutions do not take place every day. This is why we see that even those who have done anything in their later days were just like everyone else eg see my work on this site and your own participation. We are of those lucky people who are s bit more alert about realities of life than many others.

Same can be said about sir syed for example or farahi, or iqbal or jinnah or parwez or ghamdi etc etc. All people who later became known as great people started just like everybody else but circumstances raised them in awareness and so they were able to do a lot of good for others.

This is how people start with mazhab and some times they reach to level of deen. In between there is a whole spectrum like grey-scale. The day most people become deeni people the world not remain as it is rather it will change drastically.

It is because deeni people are those who are fully aware of God and rights and responsibilities about people. This being the case such people can neither afford to be lazy nor crazy so when such people come about in great numbers you can imagine the kind of world it is going to be.

The question arises, could such people arise in this world? I think they can. It is going to take time but they will because the world population is forcing us to force each other in the direction that reduces cruelty and destruction. This media blackout and destruction of humanity is not acceptable and it will not last for long and as thing get worse and worse the ebb will reach and then turning point will come about ensuring things change drastically for the better till we get them as best as well envisage them at current level of our knowledge.

This is why I am becoming more and more sure that future belongs to peace, progress and prosperity and that is not possible unless people learn to live with each other in a better way than have been. That better way cannot come from religion nor secularism but from divine writ because it is the only source that is unbiased and fair to all and rational at the same time.

We began with tribal set up and ended up with huge empires. The collapsing of empires gave rise to priestly rule and after that we have of rule of money changers and it is not going to last very long because each earlier ruling system came down after saturation.

The question is, after rule of kings and mullahs and bankers whose rule is left to come about? It is because future does not belong to kings or priests or bankers. The future according to the quran only and only belongs to people who believe in superiority of constitution or rule of law. But then this rule of law is a different kind of rule of law. The question is, what is the difference?

The difference is that in the past laws were made by chiefs in their own favour against the interest of the rest. Laws were made in favour of kings when they were truly in power and laws were made by mullahs to suit themselves when they were in power. Today it is money power and laws are made in favour of rich at the expense of the poor because the rich elite backs the people who are supposed to run the state and once those people run the state they make sure their masters benefit no matter how many others lose because they are only sheep.

Only when laws are made for the good of everyone that divine constitution will become supreme and that is the direction we are moving in. It is only matter of time before we get there. There is none who could stop from happening this and |I am very much surprised how the quran lead the way in a subtle way.

That is how God works in order to fulfil his plan regardless we like it or not. All planning by kings and priests and bankers is proving useless against this natural tide.

Anyway that is how it all makes sense to me and it is not something that people should dismiss.

regards and all the best
sum
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You responded to my post but did not answer it.

PLease give a clear opinion as to whether you consider that Muhammad`s words and deeds were in accordance with Koranic guidance.

sum
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You responded to my post but did not answer it.

PLease give a clear opinion as to whether you consider that Muhammad`s words and deeds were in accordance with Koranic guidance.

sum
why would you say that sum? ..Mughal is answering every question with half a page of answer..

Are these your questions??
Sum's post-1

........This is the crux of the matter...............

1). If the Koran does not have a divine origin then why the hell should I be subjected to the advance of 7th century arab culture which seeks to impose itself on the non-muslim world in perpetuity? .............
You say that warfare is acceptable if people refuse to accept the Islamic path to a good and prosperous society. This is outragous. You are implying that the Islamic way is the way forward when in fact it is a backward path. By your own line of reasoning you are suggesting that it would be acceptable to wage war on the Islamic world because it refuses to accept the right path as seen by other relogions/cultures/societies. Any system works if all the people support it. Please tell me why I should accept the Islamic path instead of non-Islamic paths.

So far, you have not responded to my posts about Muhammad acting in accordance to the Koran and setting the example for muslims to follow to this day.

2). Did Muhammad understand the Koran and have the correct interpretation? If he did not then Islam is destroyed straight away.

3). If he did follow the guidance in the Koran then are present day muslims only following Muhammad`s example which was the correct interpretation of the Koran?

4) Surely the example set by Muhammad is the correct Islamic example, is it not? ..
Sum Mughal answered all of your questions with long drivels in various posts. and he is doing that for the past one year. It is just that.. you are not understanding his answers.

Mughal correct me if I am wrong..
sum
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by sum »

Hello yeezevee

You are quite correct - I do not understand Mughal`s replies. I still have received no clear and definitive answer as to whether Mughal regards Muhammad`s words and deeds as being in full accordance with Koranic guidance.

The answer does not require a long winded post at all. It is a very important question because we know that Muhammad committed a whole string of abhorrent acts and therefore need to know if these transgressed the Koran. If they did not then present day muslims are dutifully following Muhammad`s example which is therefore true Islam to be followed for all time. If Muhammad was transgressing the Koranic guidance why are there are no divine admonishments or corrective guidance for Muhammad? One then has to ask what the hell is going on apart from claiming that it is patently obvious that Islam is false and just a construct of Muhammad for his own personal use.

sum
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

sum wrote:Hello yeezevee

You are quite correct - I do not understand Mughal`s replies.
I still have received no clear and definitive answer as to whether Mughal regards Muhammad`s words and deeds as being in full accordance with Koranic guidance.
That is a fact sum. You don't understand Mughal, you don't understand The Cat and you don't understand any one who sympathizes Muslims that are trying to make peace with other religious folks with in the premises of Quran according to their understanding. ., but you know one has to start the dialogue somewhere ..somehow..
..we know that Muhammad committed a whole string of abhorrent acts and therefore need to know if these transgressed the Koran.
that may be true but according to them Quran also has verses that explains why Muhammad committed such abhorrent acts and apparently it is only for Muhammad that was permitted by Allah t that time. That is their way of of escaping the problem. Other way is translating Quran., Unfortunately people like you ate not giving any chance to them sum..
If they did not thethat is aacre there are no divine admonishments or corrective guidance for Muhammad? One then has to ask what the hell is going on apart from claiming that it is patently obvious that Islam is false and just a construct of Muhammad for his own personal use.
I am sure they will get some support verse from quarn on that corrective guidance for Muhammad...

The other thing you must realize is the verses that addresses Muhammad directly.. at best they are only 4 of them..
(1) And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful. ( Chapter #3, Verse #144)

(2) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things. ( Chapter #33, Verse #40)

(3) And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition. ( Chapter #47, Verse #2)

(4) Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward. ( Chapter #48, Verse #29)
If you throw out all Hadith((which most of educated Muslims would love to throw it out)) then you have left with only 4 verses that talks about " Muhammad" ., So sum ball is in your court now to prove that Muhammad committed a whole string of abhorrent acts from those 4 verses..

with best
yeezevee
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Fernando
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Fernando »

Oh, I see Yeezeevee, Mo is so virtuous. It's his Allah who does all the dirty work and deserves all the blame. That explains why Muslims worship Mo more than the do his Allah.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You responded to my post but did not answer it.

PLease give a clear opinion as to whether you consider that Muhammad`s words and deeds were in accordance with Koranic guidance.

sum
Dear sum, I have explained what islam is as per my understanding of the quran. The message is very simple ie God sets a goal for people to accomplish ie establish and maintain peace.

We are told that unless you do certain things peace is not going to be the end result and likewise if you do not stop doing certain things again there is no chance that you will be able to accomplish peace in the world. This message we must understand ourselves properly and spread it worldwide because unless everyone comes to know what we all should work towards and and why and what part we each must play in order to achieve the end goal we are not going to get anywhere. However the more we succeed in this direction the more close we get to achieving the set out objective but the more we move away from this objective by doing things wrong way we will be distancing ourselves from the set out target. If end goal has to be peace then that end goal cannot be achieved without fulfilling its related conditions. The gate to peace is not going to open unless we do things that will help us open the gate to peace. It is simple as that.

Just like if you do not grow food it will not happen all by itself likewise unless we foster peace it will not happen all by itself.

When we will go for this goal people who do not want peace on the terms and conditions state in the quran will fight their corner so the main question is, is goal of peace the right goal? Are terms and conditions set for it good for the purpose of peace? If not have we got a better goal in life to work towards? Have we got better terms and conditions to achieve our own set out individual goals?

Since no goal in life is better than going for peace and no terms and conditions are better than the ones set out for this purpose then we must accept the program and work according to it. Why? Because if we do not work according to a set out good program and we have no better alternative then who is at fault, God or man?

Since end goal is peace therefore all laws we form must ensure peace, progress and prosperity and that is what is meant by shariah laws as far as the quran is concerned.

Since conspiracies have been around always by those who do not want to give up their dominant and influential positions therefore they always came with new plans to fool masses and that is what is going on around the world ie people are trying their best to confuse each other instead of educating each other so that some could take undue advantage of others for their harmful and destructive ambitions.

This is why people will say or write anything about their opponents just to put themselves in a better light in contrast. Rulers, priests and bankers should never be trusted because their aim is to enslave others so they want to ensure their rule over others lasts. The phrase translate as no God but Allah simply means no ruler other than Allah in this kingdom of God. So long as people accept rule of any other they are condemned as people who obey other than Allah. Allah has no partners in sovereignty of his kingdom. Everything belong to Allah alone so none has right to claim ownership of anything.

People are only given right to fruit of their own labour all else belongs to God and that is why if you produce anything or invent anything or distribute anything, all means to bring the things about were created and provided by God and he does not give right to fruit of his labour to anyone but as per his dictated laws. This is why mullahs are as condemnable as kufaar as far as the quran is concerned because they have invented 2.5% zakaah rule on behest of kings to derail message of the quran. In other words if divide labour of man and labour of God, the result is, bigger share of things must go to God and tiny fraction will go to man. This is why Allah has right to give rule about things not man. This is why he says work hard for the good of each other to benefit each other not to be rivals and competitors against each other who can push the down in to hell hole.

Jiaad and dawah is made very clear ie it is for a set purpose. Educate people for peace is sure message of the quran no matter what we think. We cannot afford to throw away scriptures just because some of us are hell bent on their misinterpretation and misrepresentation and other are not even bothered to find out things for themselves and just following others like sheep.

From this it is very clear that guys who brought such message could not be evil minded people even though they might have made odd mistakes here and there because they were just humans not Gods. Why the quran keeps telling muhammad tell people you are just human being like every other human being? The only thing is that you are given the message to deliver for the good of humanity.

Mullas' tricks are obvious if we examine them in light of facts eg look at zakaat rule which makes rich richer and poor poorer. Look at worship idea that you go and praise the lord and leave the rest to us we will get you salvation and another baseless concept nothing at all to do with God. You cannot get peace by telling people go and sit on prayer mat and praise the lord and everything will be ok. God tells us things only happen when you do thing to make them happen and only those things happen towards which you work. If we work towards building a house, we ought to wend up with a house after we complete the work needed. We will not get a car instead of house because we did not work for making a car.

So if we want peace then we must work towards it only then can peace result otherwise if we will keep on working for divisions and hatred then wars are the only end result and we cannot change that. So condemning islam ignorantly is not the right thing to do thinking this world does not matter we will get a better world in hereafter. Only working for a better world in this world guaranties better word in hereafter otherwise there is only going to be life of regrets and sorrows over spilt milk. These priests will not be able to save us there either as they cannot in here. This is how islam leaves us in no doubt that we are following the wrong crowd if we are working toward harming and destroying each other.

Time to question our values, our goals, our ambitions, our knowledge and see where we ought to go and where we are heading. Towards a peaceful, progressive and prosperous world or rivalries and competition against each other more fierce than ever before. Undercutting and pushing each other in to the deeper ditch of hell or are we giving each other a push in the right direction so that we all end up educated, peaceful and prosperous as a big human family?

If nonmuslims are unhappy with muslims then find out why? Is it fault of muslims or nonmuslims or of both the parties. Remove the causes of rifts and we all will be one people. That is the right way to go instead of randomly throwing mud around having no target in sight.

Does word islam mean peace?

Word islam is from root SEEN, LAAM and MEEM which indicate resting state of a thing or action of thing to achieve state of rest for itself or something else.

The concrete meaning of root slm are peace or ret but other root meanings are resultant meanings of the word eg submission means one thing acting on another to make sure it ends up in sate of rest or peace. It means ladder as well but ladder itself is used to achieve an end ie it means means of achieving peace or rest after the mission or when task is complete. So one can see very clearly that even though root has many meanings but they all end up having to do something with peace or state of rest. In other words a thing is in state of peace when it is at rest and when it is moved it disturbs that state of rest and then it needs to be corrected in order to being it back to resting position or state. Disturbance and rest are opposite of each other. Disturbance destroys peace and rest brings it back.

The concrete meaning of word islam therefore is peace not submission. Submission and other meanings are derived from this root for a set purpose and that purpose is bringing back state of rest or peace after any disturbance of peace.

regards and all the best.


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skynightblaze
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

yeezevee wrote:
sum wrote:Hello yeezevee

You are quite correct - I do not understand Mughal`s replies.
I still have received no clear and definitive answer as to whether Mughal regards Muhammad`s words and deeds as being in full accordance with Koranic guidance.
That is a fact sum. You don't understand Mughal, you don't understand The Cat and you don't understand any one who sympathizes Muslims that are trying to make peace with other religious folks with in the premises of Quran according to their understanding. ., but you know one has to start the dialogue somewhere ..somehow..
Now you are claiming here that these people are trying to make peace with premises of the quran so let us examine a few premises of the quran:

1) Quran instructs muslims to kill those who do not believe in it
2) Quran teaches to cut hands of thieves, flog people for adultery and hate unbelievers.
3) quran teaches that women are deficient in intelligence and you can beat them.

When we can clearly see that islam does not prescribe peace , we oppose these people and then you blame us for not understanding them? Are we supposed to understand that the above 3 points are a sign of peace or are desirable conduct??? So please clarify what we are supposed to understand from these people in the light of the above 3 sample teachings of quran.

Now you also say that these people are arguing from their own understanding of the quran. I have asked Mughal a few questions to which he has not even bothered to reply. I know for sure he will tell you that my replies are childish because he has already decided for himself that whatever he believes requires intelligence.I asked him to explain 9:29. Can he do that? Can he explain how the above mentioned punishments and commands are justified ?
yeezevee wrote: that may be true but according to them Quran also has verses that explains why Muhammad committed such abhorrent acts and apparently it is only for Muhammad that was permitted by Allah t that time.
SO how do you know those acts were only permitted for Muhammad and not for rest of the mankind? Can you justify that? Where does quran say that ? For e.g quran says fight those who disbelieve in Allah and the last day. No where does the quran state that this command is not applicable for all times. If it does, then please show me the verses.
yeezevee wrote: That is their way of of escaping the problem.
The question to be asked "is it a genuine way"? When we can see for ourselves that sky appears blue these people are telling us it is red. That is dishonesty.
yeezevee wrote: Other way is translating Quran., Unfortunately people like you ate not giving any chance to them sum..
Mughal has been given a chance to translate the quran. He has an entire thread here for his translations. Now that he is claiming that his translation is the correct translation he has to prove his credentials in arabic . His translation does not match the commonly used translations of the quran so the onus is onto him to prove that he has some credibility in arabic. He has provided none.
yeezevee wrote: I am sure they will get some support verse from quarn on that corrective guidance for Muhammad...
The other thing you must realize is the verses that addresses Muhammad directly.. at best they are only 4 of them..
So finally you are going down the drain like that troll cat?
yeezevee wrote:
Spoiler! :
(1) And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful. ( Chapter #3, Verse #144)

(2) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things. ( Chapter #33, Verse #40)

(3) And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition. ( Chapter #47, Verse #2)

(4) Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward. ( Chapter #48, Verse #29)

If you throw out all Hadith((which most of educated Muslims would love to throw it out)) then you have left with only 4 verses that talks about " Muhammad" ., So sum ball is in your court now to prove that Muhammad committed a whole string of abhorrent acts from those 4 verses..
with best
yeezevee
Read the part in red. Isn't that sufficient to prove that muhammad was instigating people to fight against unbelievers? There is no need to prove the obvious.

Btw how do you know anything about the history of how quran was prepared if you discard the ahadith? How do you know that this man Muhammad was worth trusting without knowing anything about him?
Last edited by skynightblaze on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by iffo »

Postby Mughal » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:19 am
Dear yeezevee, as far as I have understood muslims they can be categorised in four main categories.
Which category you belong to Mughal?
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

iffo wrote:
Postby Mughal » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:19 am
Dear yeezevee, as far as I have understood muslims they can be categorised in four main categories.
Which category you belong to Mughal?
Iffo Now I am going to answer for Mughal .. otherwise he will again write two pages of answer for that., even then you may not find the answer in it..lol..

For e.g. read the answer for sum's question which just needs "one word" :lol:

Answer to your question is "NONE OF THE FOUR"

yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

skynightblaze wrote:
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote:
sum wrote:Hello yeezevee

You are quite correct - I do not understand Mughal`s replies.
I still have received no clear and definitive answer as to whether Mughal regards Muhammad`s words and deeds as being in full accordance with Koranic guidance.
That is a fact sum. You don't understand Mughal, you don't understand The Cat and you don't understand any one who sympathizes Muslims that are trying to make peace with other religious folks with in the premises of Quran according to their understanding. ., but you know one has to start the dialogue somewhere ..somehow..
Now you are claiming here that these people are trying to make peace with these premises of the quran so let us examine a few premises of the quran:
Not all people ., I am talking Mughal type of Muslims ., I am not sure Mughal would like to consider himself as Muslim., ., you ask that question to him SKB..

but you must realize Muslims vary million different ways in their understanding/following Islam....
1) Quran instructs muslims to kill those who do not believe in it
2) Quran teaches to cut hands of thieves, flog people for adultery and hate unbelievers?
3) quran teaches that women are deficient in intelligence and you can beat them.
well I am sure Mughal has the answer for that., Suppose he says., those rules are not for 21st century but 7th century only when prophet of Islam was alive.....
When we can clearly see that islam does not prescribe peace , we oppose these people and then you then blame us for not understanding them? Are we supposed to understand that the above 3 points are a sign of peace or are desirable conduct??? So please clarify what are we supposed to understand from these people in the light of the above 3 sample teachings of quran.
well they are not for all times .. so you don't need to understand them...
Spoiler! :
Now you also say that these people are arguing from their own understanding of the quran.
I have asked Mughal a few questions to which he has not even bothered to reply.
Spoiler! :
I know for sure he will tell you that my replies are childish because he has already decided for himself that whatever he believes requires intelligence.I asked him to explain 9:29. Can he do that? Can he explain how the above mentioned punishments and commands are justified ?
how come Mughal is answering every question with pages and pages., how did he miss your question skb?
yeezevee wrote: that may be true but according to them Quran also has verses that explains why Muhammad committed such abhorrent acts and apparently it is only for Muhammad that was permitted by Allah t that time.
SO how do you know those acts were only permitted for Muhammad and not for rest of the mankind? Can you justify that? Where does quran say that ? For e.g quran says fight those who disbelieve in Allah and the last day. No where does the quran state that this command is not applicable for all times. If it does, then please show me the verses.
well Quran only Muslims will come up with some verse that gives such meaning... "My religion is for me .. your religion is for you " something like that.. where there is a will there is way of escaping the problem.
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote:The question to be asked "is it a genuine way"? When we can see for ourselves that sky appears blue these people are telling us it is red.
That is dishonesty.
so what is wrong with a bit of dishonesty if you could save lives and killings ??
yeezevee wrote: Other way is translating Quran., Unfortunately people like you ate not giving any chance to them sum..
Mughal has been given a chance to translate the quran. He has an entire thread here for his translations. Now that he is claiming that his translation is the correct translation he has to prove his credentials in arabic . His translation does not match the commonly used translations of the quran so the onus is onto him to prove that he has some credibility in arabic. He has provided none.
Not necessarily.. that is the way he understands Islam and quran And he must have the right to understand any religions the way he wants., As long as you have the freedom to question whatever he says., that should not be a problem. .,
yeezevee wrote: I am sure they will get some support verse from quarn on that corrective guidance for Muhammad...
The other thing you must realize is the verses that addresses Muhammad directly.. at best they are only 4 of them..
So finally you are going down the drain like that troll cat?
again there is nothing wrong in it "AS LONG AS YOU HAVE FREEDOM TO QUESTION THAT"
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote: (1) And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful. ( Chapter #3, Verse #144)

(2) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things. ( Chapter #33, Verse #40)

(3) And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition. ( Chapter #47, Verse #2)

(4) Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward. ( Chapter #48, Verse #29)

If you throw out all Hadith((which most of educated Muslims would love to throw it out)) then you have left with only 4 verses that talks about " Muhammad" ., So sum ball is in your court now to prove that Muhammad committed a whole string of abhorrent acts from those 4 verses..
with best
yeezevee

Read the part in red. Isn't that sufficient to prove that muhammad was instigating people to fight against unbelievers? There is no need to prove the obvious.

Btw how do you know anything about the history of how quran was prepared if you discard the ahadith? How do you know that this man Muhammad was worth trusting without knowing anything about him?
[/quote][/quote]

well, every Muslim guy in 21st century is like Mughal and if you have freedom to question then it doesn't matter what really happened in history except explore it as history. yes I do read that and Quran did say that., but suppose some muslim guy says that is when prophet of Islam was alive .... that is what Ghamdi was doing in Pakistan.




My problem with Mughal is not what he is doing., but I am afraid he is wasting his time here., ideally he should have been doing this in Islamic forums ..

with best
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, accept the fact that we are not Gods rather we are humans. We must begin by supposition that God created the world the way he liked and not the way we would like it to be. Do we really agree on anything at all? No, so how could God follow our suggestions and create the world if we cannot come together to some sort of agreement as to how the world should be? It is therefore utterly stupid for us to question why God created the world the way it is.

Everyone cannot have his way in this world whoever has the ways and means leads the world in any direction that group chooses. This is why this world was led by tribal chiefs and then by kings and then emperors and then by religious leaders and now by bankers. Very soon this world is going to be led by people who want rule of law and that is the time when islam will be sought after because it will provide people with solution of the problem at the time ie it will give them the basis for unity and progress and prosperity that they will need. People only look for solutions when they can see the problems. Just now most people do not see any problem with the world the way it is otherwise they must have looked for answers and they would have found them.

So we need to wait till people see the need for real peace, real progress and real prosperity just now they are happy with fighting between themselves and disturbing the peace and holding back progress and therefore not being prosperous to be able to get rid of poverty. When they will get fed up after exhausting themselves through negatively competing against each other then will come time for change. This is how monarchies were replaced with priestly rule and then money rule replaced both of them so when people will get fed up with money rule as well they will look for some other way of ruling themselves and that way of living will be true rule of law based upon true values and that will replace all of them.

Kings also made laws and enforced them but the problem was they made laws to take advantage of others, priests made laws but they took advantage of others and today bankers are getting laws made in their favour and poor and weak have no where to go. So one day laws will be brought in that are fair and properly balanced that are good for all and that is when islam will become dominant.

So long as laws are made to give some power over others people will keep on fighting and it is utterly stupid to blame islam for that rather the the actual culprits. People are fighting against each other for what? That is the real cause of problems and that cause must be removed if we want our world to be good for all of us.

Divine scriptures can only help us if we take time to know them and thereby let them help. Today kids are breaking away from everyone because they do not want anyone to guide them about anything and that is because kings did not guide us properly, priests did not guide us properly and bankers are not guiding us properly so these kids are going to become free of all this nonsense and come to a new conclusion and that conclusion is going to be fair rule of law. No one takes undue advantage of anyone. A new world order is soon to come about that will ensure none is master or slave of any other but people will join forces purely on basis of worthwhile values. So there is nothing difficult to understand if one has enabled oneself to do so.

regards and all the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTrbVf6SrCc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qra6pcn4AOE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNbNoX-3 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Mughal on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
frankie
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:Dear friends, accept the fact that we are not Gods rather we are humans. We must begin by supposition that God created the world the way he liked and not the way we would like it to be. Do we really agree on anything at all? No, so how could God follow our suggestions and create the world if we cannot come together to some sort of agreement as to how the world should be? It is therefore utterly stupid for us to question why God created the world the way it is.

Everyone cannot have his way in this world whoever has the ways and means leads the world in any direction that group chooses. This is why this world was led by tribal chiefs and then by kings and then emperors and then by religious leaders and now by bankers. Very soon this world is going to be led by people who want rule of law and that is the time when islam will be sought after because it will provide people with solution of the problem at the time ie it will give them the basis for unity and progress and prosperity that they will need. People only look for solutions when they can see the problems. Just now most people do not see any problem with the world the way it is otherwise they must have looked for answers and they would have found them.

So we need to wait till people see the need for real peace, real progress and real prosperity just now they are happy with fighting between themselves and disturbing the peace and holding back progress and therefore not being prosperous to be able to get rid of poverty. When they will get fed up after exhausting themselves through negatively competing against each other then will come time for change. This is how monarchies were replaced with priestly rule and then money rule replaced both of them so when people will get fed up with money rule as well they will look for some other way of ruling themselves and that way of living will be true rule of law based upon true values and that will replace all of them.

Kings also made laws and enforced them but the problem was they made laws to take advantage of others, priests made laws but they took advantage of others and today bankers are getting laws made in their favour and poor and weak have no where to go. So one day laws will be brought in that are fair and properly balanced that are good for all and that is when islam will become dominant.

So long as laws are made to give some power over others people will keep on fighting and it is utterly stupid to blame islam for that rather the the actual culprits. People are fighting against each other for what? That is the real cause of problems and that cause must be removed if we want our world to be good for all of us.

Divine scriptures can only help us if we take time to know them and thereby let them help. Today kids are breaking away from everyone because they do not want anyone to guide them about anything and that is because kings did not guide us properly, priests did not guide us properly and bankers are not guiding us properly so these kids are going to become free of all this nonsense and come to a new conclusion and that conclusion is going to be fair rule of law. No one takes undue advantage of anyone. A new world order is soon to come about that will ensure none is master or slave of any other but people will join forces purely on basis of worthwhile values. So there is nothing difficult to understand if one has enabled oneself to do so.

regards and all the best.
Mughal:
So we need to wait till people see the need for real peace, real progress and real prosperity just now they are happy with fighting between themselves and disturbing the peace and holding back progress and therefore not being prosperous to be able to get rid of poverty. When they will get fed up after exhausting themselves through negatively competing against each other then will come time for change. This is how monarchies were replaced with priestly rule and then money rule replaced both of them so when people will get fed up with money rule as well they will look for some other way of ruling themselves and that way of living will be true rule of law based upon true values and that will replace all of them.
This is exactly what is happening in the Muslim world as we speak,they are "happy with fighting between themselves and disturbing the peace"they are not working towards a peaceful solution to their problems,they could put down their weapons of violence and start talking,but no,they see violence as they only answer.

You say "then will come time for change".There is no room for change in Islamic teachings,the "divine scripture" you speak of, the Quran, is Allahs eternal,and final word,given to mankind.Islamic teachings advocate and condone violence in the name of its god,for all time.So if you are looking to change the world for the better Mugal,you won't find it following Islamic teachings.

But there is room for change in secular rules.They can be changed, for the betterment of mankind,and have been proved to do so.

This is why Islam fails mankind,it puts its followers eternally at war with the rest of the world,until Allahs laws reign supreme.
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Dear frankie wars are not over yet between any people because the gap between rich and poor is increasing throughout the world. Obviously the result is violence when things get unbearable. Not long ago europeans and american and russian and etc etc were all up in arms and streets were littered with bodies. may be you just want to single out a people for no reason at all. That is not fair on your part. Please take a look around before you single out any people. All people fight because they have reasons to do so.

Look at history of india and pakistan, is there peace within india or within pakistan? It is war between classes and caste of people and as I said it is aggressors who need to lay down arms not the ones aggressed against. He whose right are taken away is forced to take up arms. Why did indians fight british rule? Why did americans fight british rule? What were first and 2nd world wars about?

People need to learn sense anywhere and everywhere so that they become human beings and live properly as they should. otherwise people are just animals and labelling them changes nothing at all.

Wars in muslim world are funded by their enemies. It is because muslims want to change ruling system to islamic and others who have the advantage oppose it and they ar backed by same forces that caused division of india.

Look at what happened before india became independent, monetary system was put in place so that people could still be rules when occupiers leave. People who were given titles by the british for their loyalty to them were set upon those people and that rule is still on. Indian education system that was there long before british was destroyed by the british. indian unity was destroyed by the british. When british went to india they went there seeking livelihood but through conning they managed to turn indians against each other and finally took over india as its rulers. The locals were treated worse than 2nd clas citizens in their own homeland.

So today we cannot blame muslims alone for whatever wrong is happening anywhere because the mess created in muslims lands by their enemies at the time is going to take time to sort itself out.

Europeans and americans have been playing double game for a long time now and people are gradually beginning to realise that and that is why they no longer trust them and take their presence as a bad news. Even if these people change their fears about them will continue for a time. Conspiracies do not remain hidden any more therefore all people must put all their cards on the table in order to create trust between themselves. This is why there is much greater need for building bridges than burning the boats.

In the oldest forum I pointed out these points and took it as good thing that people of one country are going to another because through mixture of people we are likely to become better aware of each other and help educate each other and this can help us break down real barriers based upon negativity about each other.

Even then I suggested that there is greater need for educating people to be realistic rather than basing themselves on make beliefs. Education is the only way to remove rifts from between people anywhere and everywhere that was always my stand and it still remains the same.

If we want to benefit from each other we must learn to live with each other and that is not possible unless we turn to values that help us become caring and sharing people failing that hell is the only place we will all end up in sooner rather than later. This hell is not made by Allah but by ourselves by not accepting each others rights and by not fulfilling our responsibilities towards each other.

So real problem is not islam or quran but people and their treatment of each other. The sooner we accept peace as our goal and accept the conditions for peace and work within that framework, we will see a sea change in the world.

Why don't people look at what I am doing and get involved and spread the idea and so bring people together rather than following the ideas that push them apart and set them against each other?

The basic truth is if we will push ideas for wars then wars we will get so it is up to all of us individuals to see what is it exactly that we are really doing. fanning the fire of hatred and wars or cooling minds through sensible ideas to become peaceful and prosperous as human family.

I am bringing better awareness to other peoples' attention so that together we could help muslims better their vision. It is same idea that I suggested in the first forum that we must get to educated nonmuslims first if we want to bring change in muslims world if we think nonmuslims know better. It is because better educated people take less effort to convince and once nonmuslims are convinced about an idea then we can target educated muslims and bring them aboard and then rest will follow. It is for this reason I do not want nonsense response to my posts. If you know facts I do not need to convince you but if you do not then you cannot help and so no point in arguing till you get educated about the idea.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by frankie »

Mughal:
"wars are not over yet between any people because the gap between rich and poor is increasing throughout the world. Obviously the result is violence when things get unbearable. Not long ago europeans and american and russian and etc etc were all up in arms and streets were littered with bodies. may be you just want to single out a people for no reason at all. That is not fair on your part. Please take a look around before you single out any people. All people fight because they have reasons to do so."
Yes it is true,mankind does have a history of violence,but when the Golden Rule is followed properly, this sort of violence should be non existant.Unfortunately this is not the case,because of mans selfish desires.

BUT,you cannot say the same for the people that follow Islamic teachings,they are divinely commanded to view all their fellow Non Muslims as inferior,unclean and worthy of being either subjugated or murdered at the behest of their god,Allah.

This cannot be conducive to a peaceful co-existance within all humanity,when you have one set of humans claiming divine authority to take over someones land,property and even family members to enslave them,you have a recipe for warfare.
All people fight because they have reasons to do so."
Exactly so,the Muslims reason is because Allah and his "prophet"commands them to "fight until non has the right to be worshipped but Allah".
I am bringing better awareness to other peoples' attention so that together we could help muslims better their vision.
The way to help Muslims is by putting their diabolical teachings before their eyes on this Forum and elsewhere,so that they see how false and dangerous they are,and abandon them.

Their teachings amount to a recipe for eternal warfare throughout humanity!
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by kaimana1 »

Dear mughal i must take issue with what you wrote here-

That is not how arabic works my friend!
You wrote:
Does word islam mean peace?

Word islam is from root SEEN, LAAM and MEEM which indicate resting state of a thing or action of thing to achieve state of rest for itself or something else.

The concrete meaning of root slm are peace or ret but other root meanings are resultant meanings of the word eg submission means one thing acting on another to make sure it ends up in sate of rest or peace. It means ladder as well but ladder itself is used to achieve an end ie it means means of achieving peace or rest after the mission or when task is complete. So one can see very clearly that even though root has many meanings but they all end up having to do something with peace or state of rest. In other words a thing is in state of peace when it is at rest and when it is moved it disturbs that state of rest and then it needs to be corrected in order to being it back to resting position or state. Disturbance and rest are opposite of each other. Disturbance destroys peace and rest brings it back.

The concrete meaning of word islam therefore is peace not submission. Submission and other meanings are derived from this root for a set purpose and that purpose is bringing back state of rest or peace after any disturbance of peace.





I say WRONG That is impossible- Verbs in Arabic have several forms, (i believe 11 main ones)- Each form gives a slightly different meaning to the root meaning and each form has its own verbal noun (as im sure you know mughal each noun is derived from the verb in arabic). I will use the root of Islam (SLM) to illustrate this (The numbers refer to the verb form - I will only list the main forms of this verb.)

1. (Verb) To be safe, sound, at peace سَلِمَ
Verbal noun: سلام (Salaam) Soundness, Well-being, safety, peace, security (There are other nouns from the first form with similar meanings i.e. سَلَامَة سِلْم )

2. (Verb) To keep (someone) safe, sound, to deliver, handover, surrender سَلَّمَ
Verbal noun تَسْلِيم (Tasleem) Handing over, keeping safe, delivering, surrendering (something or someone).

4. (Verb) To submit/surrender (something or someone), and also to become a Muslim أَسْلَمَ
Verbal noun: إِسْلَام (Islaam) Surrendering, Submitting.

10. (Verb): اسْتَسْلَمَ To surrender (intransitive i.e. oneself).
Verbal noun: اسْتِسْلَام (Istislaam) Surrender

As you can see mughal the noun Salaam (Peace) is the verbal noun of the 1st form.

The noun Islaam (Islam) is the verbal noun of the 4th form. It means Submitting/Surrendering. It doesn't mean Peace. Twisting and/or imposing a translation on a word doesnt change reality my dear mughal.


I have seen many quransts do this on other verses and different words as well. like for example- on free minds you have some members there that try to say regarding the verses about obey allah and his messenger is referring to gabriel the angel while others say it means the muslim reader who becomes the messenger- No wonder why most quranists are non arabs- they can expand the meanings of various words to whatever they choose without feeling any guilt about the intellectual dishonesty they display.

However, this results in massive differences- No wonder why sunni/shia muslims don't take quranists seriously- If you have 100 quranists in a room you will have virtually 100 different sects in one room.
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

yeezevee wrote:
Now you are claiming here that these people are trying to make peace with these premises of the quran so let us examine a few premises of the quran:
Not all people ., I am talking Mughal type of Muslims ., I am not sure Mughal would like to consider himself as Muslim., ., you ask that question to him SKB..
but you must realize Muslims vary million different ways in their understanding/following Islam....
Muslims may be understanding islam differently but in order to prove that a particular interpretation is genuine you got to provide proofs or reasoning or else it is wishful thinking. Just because someone tells you violence means peace , it does not constitute a valid interpretation. It only means that it is one of the delusional ways to believe that quran has something useful in it rather than considering it as a valid interpretation.

Btw not all the islam can be interpreted differently.Let us take an example from the quran itself which you and likes of Mughal want to defend. Quran teaches you to beat your wife. How in the world can there be a different interpretation for this? I am sure you would bring some other quranic verses however they do nothing to account for the evilness of this verse. This verse is evil to the core and quran needs to be thrown out of the window for this verse alone. There are no second interpretations and you even have a bigger problem defending this if you are arguing from a quran alone perspective. Traditionalist try to soften down this verse with ahadith but their way of interpretation is again wishful thinking because it does not make any sense.

yeezevee wrote:
1) Quran instructs muslims to kill those who do not believe in it
2) Quran teaches to cut hands of thieves, flog people for adultery and hate unbelievers?
3) quran teaches that women are deficient in intelligence and you can beat them.
well I am sure Mughal has the answer for that., Suppose he says., those rules are not for 21st century but 7th century only when prophet of Islam was alive.....
Quran does not say that in any verse. Now since quran claims itself as a book for entire mankind these verses are applicable even today . What you say above cannot be backed and hence it is wishful thinking and not a genuine argument. If Mughal and likes really feel that they are saying correct things then to convince people they have to make sense and back themselves with concrete evidence or reasoning. Otherwise it is wishful thinking and not a genuine interpretation.
yeezevee wrote:
When we can clearly see that islam does not prescribe peace , we oppose these people and then you then blame us for not understanding them? Are we supposed to understand that the above 3 points are a sign of peace or are desirable conduct??? So please clarify what are we supposed to understand from these people in the light of the above 3 sample teachings of quran.
well they are not for all times .. so you don't need to understand them...
You are again making claims without proofs or any reasoning.

Yeezevee wrote:how come Mughal is answering every question with pages and pages., how did he miss your question skb?
Just check the last page or two. He speaks about everything other than addressing my points.The proof is in writing. My last post to Mughal has not been addressed by him .
yeezevee wrote:
that may be true but according to them Quran also has verses that explains why Muhammad committed such abhorrent acts and apparently it is only for Muhammad that was permitted by Allah t that time.
SO how do you know those acts were only permitted for Muhammad and not for rest of the mankind? Can you justify that? Where does quran say that ? For e.g quran says fight those who disbelieve in Allah and the last day. No where does the quran state that this command is not applicable for all times. If it does, then please show me the verses.

well Quran only Muslims will come up with some verse that gives such meaning... "My religion is for me .. your religion is for you " something like that.. where there is a will there is way of escaping the problem.
I suppose your religion for you and mine for me is in direct contradiction with 9:29. Now the problem is even more compounded. Why is quran sending different messages? 9:29 can no way possibly be a self defense verse or a peaceful verse. It is a clear case that the author of quran seems to have changed minds. Btw telling 100 peaceful things cannot nullify the violent things that you tell so bringing a peaceful verse to defend a violent one does not work.
yeezevee wrote:
The question to be asked "is it a genuine way"? When we can see for ourselves that sky appears blue these people are telling us it is red. That is dishonesty.
so what is wrong with a bit of dishonesty if you could save lives and killings ??
Can you give me an example where such method was used and lives were saved? As far as I know ,fellow muslims consider such people as kafirs and resort to riots and history is a proof of it so this approach actually has helped in sparking violence and riots rather than saving lives.Secondly such an approach does fool the innocent non muslims into believing that islam is really a religion of peace.
yeezevee wrote: Not necessarily.. that is the way he understands Islam and quran And he must have the right to understand any religions the way he wants., As long as you have the freedom to question whatever he says., that should not be a problem. .,
None is denying anyone's rights here. We are here to debate and exchange opinions. To convince others you must provide rational arguments and not wishful thinking. We debate here to find truth and not to force people into believing or unbelieving something.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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