Sensible people v senseless people

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:Dear yeezevee,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZZQlXBg ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJcyFLFf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCcPuXVY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egM3haO8 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHz8cpUL ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I will scan through those videos Mughal., I operate on the basic premises., Nothing is perfect and everything need to be tweaked to get to the perfection.
people think that among muslims there were no scholars who understood the quran at all. This is proof that there were and there are. These original lectures are from 1950s. This is repetition recorded in videos in 80s but his same lectures also exist in audio from 60s and 70s.

The important point to realise is the knowledge of muslim masses at the time and coming about of people like sir syed, farahi, iqbal, jinah and parwez etc etc.
I will add to those names you mentioned more names ....
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan,
Begum Hazrat Mahal,
Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi;
Allah Baksh Muhammad Umar Soomro;
present Abdus Sattar Eidhi ;
Dr. Zakir Husain of India and many more..


Image
Here are some of them you see in this picture

BUT WHAT IS THAT HAS TO DO WITH RELIGIONS AND IN PARTICULAR ISLAM??
India had a great education system in india before the british came to india and destroyed it. That is obvious from reports produced for lord mcauley.
Off course., there were scholars and knowledgeable folks born in Islam/Islamic parents..

what British did, what Muslims did, what Hindus did, What Christians did, and what Americans/Russians/Indians/Chines are doing is nothing to do with Islam or for that matter any religious mambo jumbo Mughal

with best wishes
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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skynightblaze
Posts: 3920
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

Mughal wrote: No dear skynightblaze you cannot dismantle the claims of the quran because what you have found may well have been ancient conspiracies against the quranic text by opposing parties. people do print counterfeit notes through out the world. People have been conspiring against each other always in way they saw fit. Do you think rulers and priests and money changers were sitting idle when muhammad was given the message to deliver? They saw danger coming to them so they reacted as they saw fit in order to save themselves and their ideology, system, structure and practice.
Historical reasearch behind Sanaa manuscripts backs the ahadith . The ahadith also tell us that there were discrepancies in the various copies of the quran. Sadly for you historic research has also confirmed the same. So you are talking about conspiracy theories and not me.
Mughal wrote: False flag operations are not new and spying was always there. It runs in a family itself ie brothers and sisters try to know what parents are doing about their property. You know the favourite child and the hated one. So we cannot decide certain things with 100% certainty.
So can't the same men simply corrupt the quran? Or are you telling me that corrupt men corrupt only the hadith but leave the quran alone ? :lol:
Mughal wrote: Just because you find some copies of the old quranic text and they do not match is not proof of anything. It is because we are speculating the rest of stories about them.
Historical research has no value for you? Believing in historical research is speculation? Just look how much you have degraded yourself.
Mughal wrote: To discredit the quran we must know a lot more than we already do. That is my finding. I was like you thinking the quran is nothing because I got it from mullahs but only after reading it for understanding properly I realised that this is not a book that can be dismissed that easily as I thought before.
I have read some of your posts in the past and I have to admit that you were very scholarly in the past. Your understanding of islam was spot on however you have now taken a U -turn and that too for worst. You are degrading yourself . That is all I can say.
Mughal wrote: Please read my old posts and the new posts and see the way I am able to explains a lot of things that no muslim has explained before. If I am able to explain the quran that much then what will happen if we all started to study the quran properly? We will discover that quran is much bigger than our minds. No wonder it says you cannot comprehend the knowledge of God but only to a level that you make effort for. Our effort are very limited.
Why don't you provide your credentials about arabic so that we know that you are a reliable translator? If you are bad at arabic then obviously you have got wrong conclusions and we do not wish to land on the wrong track. As far as quran being bigger than our minds, that is a joke. Quran is the worst piece of literature that I have ever read. The author wont be able to pass 2nd grade if he wrote stuff like that. That was collective work of Muhammad and his gang so one can imagine how astoundingly dumb Muhammad must be.
Mughal wrote: The quran as I understand is not a make belief based book. It is very much a living scripture.
Yup like cutting hands of thieves, flogging people for adultery. Way to go Mughal!
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

skynightblaze wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear skynightblaze, you are going about things the wrong way. There are two things before us a) the allegedly divine testimony and b) the universe and all that is in it. These two are sufficient to draw complete conclusion from. To understand things we must know the universe and to know the universe we must know the quran. By studying them in a complementary way we can come to the right conclusion.
So are we supposed to consider quran as divine even if we find that it has 100's of errors just because above 2 conditions are met?
Mughal wrote: Put the quran to test regarding origin of the universe and see if you can find any definite contradictions between the two.See the quran and see how it explains purpose of universe and the way it works.
Contradiction found and hence by your own criteria we can dismiss the quran. Focus on 21:30.
The quran claims that earth and heavens were joined together before being separated.There is no separation. Earth is still contained within the universe and hence quran is in error.
Mughal wrote: You need to be careful not to take other peoples' wrong interpretations of the quran or the universe because you cannot do sums befoe you have numbers and you cannot write books without knowing letters first.
Just because people happen to possess negative views about quran does not mean that they do not know anything.

Now what are your qualifications in arabic language?? You claim that you are the first person on earth to understand quran and claim that every single person till date is wrong . That is a very tall claim. So, please give your qualification so that we know that you understand the letters first before writing the book.
Mughal wrote: The quran explains the facts regarding the universe in context of how important humanity is. Remember one step my God the next by man and so on. This is the way the quran is set up and should be understood. It takes us through universal maze step by step.
The creation of man is a recent phenomenon when you see how many years earth has been in existence. EArth is 4.5 billion years old and when did the first human come into being? May be a few million years ago. So earth was certainly not important in context of humanity. So sadly for you quran is wrong yet again.
Mughal wrote: I have never come across any study of the universe and the quran that is based on that foundation. This is why we have separation between state and religion through conspiracies against the divine writ.
How are you sure that it is not the truth but a conspiracy? What proof do you have that quran is from God?
Mughal wrote: This separation did not stop there it rather it gave rise to further stupid ideas ie separation between religion and philosophy and separation between science and religion and a whole lot more. This was done deliberately with only and only one purpose in mind to defeat divine plan. But at each stage it back fired back on humanity itself.
What you are saying is there is no separation between science, philosophy and religion however quran has been found to contradict science and hence clearly there is a scope for separation. For e.g quran says earth is flat how ever we know it isn't so the separation is certainly correct.
Mughal wrote: The days are not far when all these false separations are going to end. I can see this coming not in too distant future. It is because we humans are driving each other to the brink of destruction and people are bound to rethink their position before they destroy themselves or before they reach the point of no return.
That day will never come because the separations are not false.
Mughal wrote: You want to study something put effort in to it and you will get the results. Just going about things haphazardly is not going to be helpful as it never has been.
YOu automatically assume that just because people differ with you they must have been less scholarly. Give me your qualifications in arabic so that we know you are not studying quran haphazardly.
Mughal wrote: This is not an argument between you and me but within your own mind like every other mind. We all are looking for the end game and we all want to see the end goal. Islam is the end goal regardless we like it or not and the terms and conditions are being fulfilled by ourselves without even realising.
Care to give example as to how this anti islamic forum is fulfilling the goal of islam?
Mughal wrote: We are all moving towards islam bit by bit as already told in the quran. The more we fight with each other, the more damage we inflict on each other, we are making more people think about peace. Each of our actions have reactions and each time they are taking us closer and closer to islam. This only shows the quran is right when it says islam will prevail. We can see it is prevailing because more and more people are looking for peace in the world.
First of all , quran never tells you to make peace but keeping that apart, it is complete failure on part of Allah that the religion of peace today has the most violent followers in the world. The concept of peace was nothing new. Plenty of people suggested peace even before Muhammad was born.
Dear skynightblaze, if I may say so, till you get the context of things your criticism is aimless. I am not saying I disagree with everyone about everything, I was not born all knowing I learned everything from other people and am still learning and will continue doing so. If you did not understand this much from my reply then what else can I say? My point is that there are certain points that are explained by me that have not been explained by anyone else before me that I am aware of. The points already explained by others are there for all to see. I do not disturb them because either I agree with them or that I have not yet thought about them.

The aim of critical study or scrutiny is to find faults in things objectively in order to refute a claim because it does not work. It has nothing to do with criticising anything in every way and ending up totally confused. One can see my old posts how I criticised islam and quran as it was taught by mullahs. I challenged not their individual arguments but the principles they put forth. For example in case of HALAAL and HARAAM I explained the idea first and then told them why any particular thing they said was wrong because it did not fit their own theory. I challenged their rule that quran cannot be understood with out hadith and that hadith is not reliable unless it is according to the quran.

I challenged their tafaseer only and only on basis of thier own proposed rules and showed them they do not work. It is like you tell me that I can solve a mathematical problem through a particular formula but when I try to do that I cannot even apply the formula just like one cannot apply the rule of understanding the quran through hadith.

Before we can really fight against the quran we need to find out what is supposed purpose of the quran and how it is supposed to fulfil its that stated purpose. Only then we can sit and think whether whether it makes sense or it does not. if it does make sense then we have no criticism and if the idea is unworkable we need to come up with concrete suggestions. That is the way to disprove the quran. In order to do that we need to have enough time and information about the issue and sufficient ability to put things together in a sensible way. If we simply pick up the quran and say this is wrong with it and that is wrong with it then we are not going to get anywhere.

Our fight is neither with God nor with humanity at large but with ourselves as to what we know and what we can or cannot know. We are here and we must learn to live some way regardless the way of the quran or any thing that comes to our own minds. However we choose to live is going to lead us to some end as a consequences of our own actions and interactions. The end result could be seen long before we reach our end and therefore we should be able to correct ourselves if we think we are going to end up in a crashing. This is the main aim of the quran to lead us to peaceful life but if we do not like that then we can live as we like but we cannot avoid consequences the quran warns us against. So far the quran has not been proven wrong so if we still want to continue on our own ways then results is not going to be any different. An experiment always produces same results if all the factors remain the same.

As for my qualifications, they do not matter. What matters is what I am stating. If it is sensible take it otherwise ignore it. This is the way the quran is ie if you like what it has to say accept it if you do not, good luck to you. A huge number of people died before us without having much understanding of the quran so would we. What is the big deal? May be we are not at peace inside ourselves as we are not at peace when we look outside of ourselves all around us. Inner peace comes from peace outside and outside peace comes from peace inside ie both complement each other.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

yeezevee wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear yeezevee,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZZQlXBg ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJcyFLFf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCcPuXVY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egM3haO8 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHz8cpUL ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I will scan through those videos Mughal., I operate on the basic premises., Nothing is perfect and everything need to be tweaked to get to the perfection.
people think that among muslims there were no scholars who understood the quran at all. This is proof that there were and there are. These original lectures are from 1950s. This is repetition recorded in videos in 80s but his same lectures also exist in audio from 60s and 70s.

The important point to realise is the knowledge of muslim masses at the time and coming about of people like sir syed, farahi, iqbal, jinah and parwez etc etc.
I will add to those names you mentioned more names ....
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan,
Begum Hazrat Mahal,
Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi;
Allah Baksh Muhammad Umar Soomro;
present Abdus Sattar Eidhi ;
Dr. Zakir Husain of India and many more..


Image
Here are some of them you see in this picture

BUT WHAT IS THAT HAS TO DO WITH RELIGIONS AND IN PARTICULAR ISLAM??
India had a great education system in india before the british came to india and destroyed it. That is obvious from reports produced for lord mcauley.
Off course., there were scholars and knowledgeable folks born in Islam/Islamic parents..

what British did, what Muslims did, what Hindus did, What Christians did, and what Americans/Russians/Indians/Chines are doing is nothing to do with Islam or for that matter any religious mambo jumbo Mughal

with best wishes
yeezevee
Dear yeezevee, if nothing had to do anything with islam and quran then we would not have had this site but we do. Not only that islam and muslims are becoming more and more important in the world that is why there is so much going on against islam and muslims. Things are now starting up in burma and even in india. The whole muslim world is in tumoil thanks to peaceful nonmuslims.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18921960" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c0lX2spnog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/thousands-flee ... y%3Doldest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
frankie
Posts: 2616
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by frankie »

frankie wrote:Mughal:
Islam is not about converting people from one kind of make belief system to another rather it is about educating people at large to make them realise peace is good for them and if it is good then how they should get it. The quran is therefore a book for revolutionary thinking to help people find their way to peace. The quran does not tell people to believe this or that as mullahs will,have have us believe instead it wants people to believe in themselves and change the world for the better through help of each other. This is what is dawah about or jihad about. Islam is an invitation to building a peaceful human society through hard work jihaad.
The Quran and actions of Mohammed would strongly disagree with you.

How exactly did Mohammed go about "educating people at large to make them realise peace is good for them and if it is good then how they should get it"

The objective of Islam is to proclaim it over all religion,to replace man made rules with Allahs.

How did Mohammed put into action "Allahs jihad" to build this "peaceful human society through hard work jihaad?"

You are closing your eyes to the truth Mughal,your moral compass is screaming at you,that to kill your fellow man,just because of his "lack of faith in Allah and Mohammed" cannot be right,so the Quran and Sunnah cannot possibly mean do to this is right.

How did Islam spread from Arabia to the rest of the world after Mohammeds death,was it done by word of mouth,or by fighting the unbelievers,to make them submit,pay protection money,or die?

I ask again:
How did Mohammed put into action "Allahs jihad" to build this "peaceful human society through hard work jihaad?"
Mughal:

Your total refusal to respond to my simplest questions about your faith,leads me to the final conclusion you are in complete denial about what Islam is, and how it achieves its objectives.

This should really not surprise me,but I and others have (and are) at least putting the truth before you and your co-religionists on this Forum.

It is now up to you to decide whether to stay within this false,diabolical belief system,or continue to live within this bubble of lies.

There is nothing benefical for mankind in Islamic teachings,the foundations of which are built on violence and hatred.

You are bringing proof,if proof were needed, that its teachings cannot even be interpreted to such a degree, that the very beings it was written for, cannot come to any agreement on the way it should be practiced!

How does this reflect on this god Allah,whose intelligence is supposed to be far greater than the creatures he created?

It is left to your own intelligence and logic,to hopefully come up with the answers one day.
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:
Islam is not about converting people from one kind of make belief system to another rather it is about educating people at large to make them realise peace is good for them and if it is good then how they should get it. The quran is therefore a book for revolutionary thinking to help people find their way to peace. The quran does not tell people to believe this or that as mullahs will,have have us believe instead it wants people to believe in themselves and change the world for the better through help of each other. This is what is dawah about or jihad about. Islam is an invitation to building a peaceful human society through hard work jihaad.
The Quran and actions of Mohammed would strongly disagree with you.

How exactly did Mohammed go about "educating people at large to make them realise peace is good for them and if it is good then how they should get it"

The objective of Islam is to proclaim it over all religion,to replace man made rules with Allahs.

How did Mohammed put into action "Allahs jihad" to build this "peaceful human society through hard work jihaad?"

You are closing your eyes to the truth Mughal,your moral compass is screaming at you,that to kill your fellow man,just because of his "lack of faith in Allah and Mohammed" cannot be right,so the Quran and Sunnah cannot possibly mean do to this is right.

How did Islam spread from Arabia to the rest of the world after Mohammeds death,was it done by word of mouth,or by fighting the unbelievers,to make them submit,pay protection money,or die?

I ask again:
How did Mohammed put into action "Allahs jihad" to build this "peaceful human society through hard work jihaad?"
Mughal:

Your total refusal to respond to my simplest questions about your faith,leads me to the final conclusion you are in complete denial about what Islam is, and how it achieves its objectives.

This should really not surprise me,but I and others have (and are) at least putting the truth before you and your co-religionists on this Forum.

It is now up to you to decide whether to stay within this false,diabolical belief system,or continue to live within this bubble of lies.

There is nothing benefical for mankind in Islamic teachings,the foundations of which are built on violence and hatred.

You are bringing proof,if proof were needed, that its teachings cannot even be interpreted to such a degree, that the very beings it was written for, cannot come to any agreement on the way it should be practiced!

How does this reflect on this god Allah,whose intelligence is supposed to be far greater than the creatures he created?

It is left to your own intelligence and logic,to hopefully come up with the answers one day.
Dear frankie, for your information I am not a religious man in the sense that you and others here understand religion. That is what I have been trying to explain in my posts. Islam is not a religion as per my understanding of the quran. Islam is a system of life for people that is supposed to lead them to peaceful and prosperous life.

This is why you are responding to something I rejected long ago. Unless you understand the context I am discussing islam in your response is just to mullahs' self created islam that has no basis in the quran.

I have same problem with all religious people that they have been made fool of by their priests. God does not need any worship by anyone. If anything God wants people to do well for themselves in this world before the time comes for them to pass onto next world. It is priests who are selling paradise in hereafter at the expense of this world. The quran opposes this selling of paradise by telling us don't be fooled by priest and kings fight for your rights in the world and shoulder responsibilities that come with rights. The quran is book of rights and responsibilities or HAQOOQ and IKHLAAQ. That is what guidelines are all about. So long as people accept the rights of each other and and responsibilities for each other the purpose of God served because people who get their rights and meet their responsibilities have nothing to fight about. The concept of religion was invented long way back when rulers or chiefs could not force people to behave so they brought about priesthood backed by establishment to support a system that suited only tose whom wanted this system.

This is why harmful and destructive powers always opposed divine writ in order to secure themselves and spread their ideologies in the name of state and religion and economic system. Islam is seen as a serious threat by all such people and forces therefore they do all they can to keep their system in place.

Watch the youtube video about countries in the word and see what is poverty doing to the world and how it is deliberately created by those whose purpose it serves for better understanding of the quranic message and solutions for problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Zxjndf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rather than responding to my posts for sake of it please read what I have written and think over it. None of you can respond to my posts properly because you are used to responding to islam as a religion. I am saying islam is not a religion but an anti religion system. You are now lost till you read and understand what deen really means. It does not mean religion rather it means a set standard whereby all actions must be measured as per their results. If you are causing poverty and playing any part in that you are acting fo9r evil. if you are acting for harming mankind or destroying mankind you are siding with evil doers. There is no concept of sin in islam but of crime against humanity. The quran uses word MUJRIMEEN=criminals for those who do things against the advice of the quran to harm and destroy humanity.

The quran defines all acts as crime that lead to oppression, suppression, injustice, unfairness, cruelty, animosity, regression, povery and wars. This is the real message of quran for mankind. Not a religious message at all. Islam was changed into religion by those who accepted islamic way of life from various back grounds eg jews who accepted islamic way of life spread their religious beliefs and stories among muslims. Likewise the christians who turned to islamic way of life spread their beliefs and stories among muslims and same happened with parsis and pagans and hindus etc. This is why various people kept distance from each other and resulted in sectarianism. Particularly this made easy for conspirators to inflcit damage on islam and muslims. This is why islam became a religion and kings got teir right to rule and thuis ended brotherhood and ummah concept among muslims. This explains why even today muslims are killing muslims in the name of their make beliefs that have nothing at all to do with islam and quran.

Many stories that came from other faiths were re-wrapped into islamic package and sold as islam. The idea that God was powerful so he could miraculously do anything for his prophets and saints etc. This is why people let themselves be slaved to graves of prophets ad so called saints. Controversies were deliberately created and spread because it benefited rulers and priest so that while ignorant people fought each other their rule was secure. The same idea is used even today by heads of states and governments that they declare wars etc in order to divert attention of their public from their local issues that really matter for them. As they say you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. The quran exposes the truth thereby frees people who have mind to think. We are becoming ever more aware of things about each other so it is not going to take much longer to come to a conclusion whether the quran proves true or not.

The quran does not ask us to believe it but look at which way the wind is blowing and see where things are going to land. So don;t make a mistake by taking it as religous holly book for browny point collections. Muslims are fools who do not understand the quran and so are nonmuslims who do not think and take the quran in same spirit.

The message of the quran is, seek goodness for this world and for hereafter. So those who wish better hereafter must work for making this world a better place. You do not get awarded for destroying things but for building them. God make this world and gave right to people to build it the best they can and warned against anyone going for its destruction. That is islam. Not mumbo jumbo of ignorant and stupid mullahs and priests.

The prophets were not miracle or magical workers but ordinary human beings who showed ordinary people how to bring beneficial changes to the world if humanity takes a wrong turn every now and then.

This is how one has to read the quran and do all in one's power to make the world a better place for mankind. This is why we should go to war if we have to, to save mankind from suffering and destruction. We must learn how to take power away from those who are enemies of humanity locally, nationally and internationally.

So snap out of this nonsense called religion. Know islam and make it a reality. We must establish heaven kingdom here on the earth not in hereafter but here and now in the hope that we will be better awarded in hereafter if there is one.

regards and all the best.
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manfred
Posts: 11602
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

Hi Mughal,

looking over that last bit, you made some valid points, but also some very odd ones...

First I agree that God does not have needs. That is why most religious people see a prayer or a religious service as grace God gives to US, and we respond by accepting the invitation to be with Him. The idea that God somehow needs to be worshiped is ridiculous, as is the idea that some kind of brownie point system exists for the amount of ritual prayers performed.

I also agree that in most religions there have been those who tried to make a fool of others by abusing religion as a method of control. That is quite a common thing. In fact, our atheist friends, like sten, would probably say, that it the whole point of religion. Well, that is debatable. We each need to decide for ourselves what place religion has in our lives. We also need to decide if we really need to have groups of others withe same belief, or some kind of leader/teacher/priest. Some do, some don't.

Problems in my view always start when the little word "and" is introduced into religion: "God and the Conservative Party", "God and Fatherland", "God and a planet without queers", "God and Mohammed". This usually leads to people trying to make others to conform to their views, and an "us and them" mentality.

As you mention those who abuse religion for their own advantage, could there be a more obvious example of such contemptible behaviour as Mohammed?

is the Qur'an alone not ample evidence of a very irreligious man, Mohammed, manipulating others into obeying his every whim. Mohammed's main message was "obey me".

So, you are a man in search for God and a religion that makes sense. Well, perhaps it is time to look around a bit? Maybe some other religious texts have something better to offer than the Qur'an? Maybe you don't need a book at all. They say the best dishes are prepared without a cookbook.

It makes me quite sad to see you, obviously a serious person, trying to improve something like the Qur'an. It's beyond help. You are like Don Quixote fighting windmills.

If you mission is to give Muslims an alternative, better Islam, well that has been tried before, and never worked. All you end up doing is create yet another sect, at best. If you want to find something for Muslims to believe in, then find the best. Sadly that is not in the Qur'an.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear yeezevee,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZZQlXBg ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJcyFLFf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCcPuXVY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egM3haO8 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHz8cpUL ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I will scan through those videos Mughal., I operate on the basic premises., Nothing is perfect and everything need to be tweaked to get to the perfection.
people think that among muslims there were no scholars who understood the quran at all. This is proof that there were and there are. These original lectures are from 1950s. This is repetition recorded in videos in 80s but his same lectures also exist in audio from 60s and 70s.

The important point to realise is the knowledge of muslim masses at the time and coming about of people like sir syed, farahi, iqbal, jinah and parwez etc etc.
I will add to those names you mentioned more names ....
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan,
Begum Hazrat Mahal,
Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi;
Allah Baksh Muhammad Umar Soomro;
present Abdus Sattar Eidhi ;
Dr. Zakir Husain of India and many more..


Image
Here are some of them you see in this picture

BUT WHAT IS THAT HAS TO DO WITH RELIGIONS AND IN PARTICULAR ISLAM??
India had a great education system in india before the british came to india and destroyed it. That is obvious from reports produced for lord mcauley.
Off course., there were scholars and knowledgeable folks born in Islam/Islamic parents..

what British did, what Muslims did, what Hindus did, What Christians did, and what Americans/Russians/Indians/Chines are doing is nothing to do with Islam or for that matter any religious mambo jumbo Mughal

with best wishes
yeezevee
Dear yeezevee, if nothing had to do anything with islam and quran then we would not have had this site but we do. Not only that islam and muslims are becoming more and more important in the world that is why there is so much going on against islam and muslims. Things are now starting up in burma and even in india. The whole muslim world is in tumoil thanks to peaceful nonmuslims.
"Mughal" you twisted everything out of its line., What I said was "good people who use logic/rational and humanistic approach to guide their lives and help others who happened to be Muslim is NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM/QURAN/Muhammad and same goes to all religions.,

I didn't say "if nothing had to do anything with islam and quran then we would not have had this site but we do"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18921960" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c0lX2spnog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/thousands-flee ... y%3Doldest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
OK.. I will., any way please continue and Eid Mubarak


with best wishes
yeezevee
sum
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You MUST come off the fence and tell us if you believe that the Koran has a divine origin. Please make this clear. This is the crux of the matter.

If the Koran does not have a divine origin then why the hell should I be subjected to the advance of 7th century arab culture which seeks to impose itself on the non-muslim world in perpetuity? This 7th century arab culture should be kicked into touch as it contributes nothing to the welfare of mankind.

You say that warfare is acceptable if people refuse to accept the Islamic path to a good and prosperous society. This is outragous. You are implying that the Islamic way is the way forward when in fact it is a backward path. By your own line of reasoning you are suggesting that it would be acceptable to wage war on the Islamic world because it refuses to accept the right path as seen by other relogions/cultures/societies. Any system works if all the people support it. Please tell me why I should accept the Islamic path instead of non-Islamic paths.

With all due respect, your posts are becoming more vague and intangible waffle. It is becoming more like the King`s clothes all over again.

So far, you have not responded to my posts about Muhammad acting in accordance to the Koran and setting the example for muslims to follow to this day. Did Muhammad understand the Koran and have the correct interpretation? If he did not then Islam is destroyed straight away. If he did follow the guidance in the Koran then are present day muslims only following Muhammad`s example which was the correct interpretation of the Koran? Surely the example set by Muhammad is the correct Islamic example is it not? If Muhammad could not get it right then Islam is pure farce with not a single redeeming feature.

Please let me know whether Muhammad understood the guidance in the Koran and set the Islamic example to follow which muslims are doing today.

sum
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Thanks dear manfred for your kind remarks and yeezevee thanks for eid mubarak and I really hope that we bring happiness to each and every household one day through love and care for each other.


Dear sum, you are talking about sunnah of the prophet.

The main point is definition of word sunnah and here is what I make of it

Word Sunnah is from root SEEN, NOON and NOON. It has many meanings eg path, tradition, example, habit, age, era, formula, rule, law etc etc.

Within itself the word carries the meaning of being prompted to act on something and leave a trace for others to follow eg some one decides to do something so he sets things in motion in reaction to his thought of doing something or some one tells some one to do something so in reaction to that some one does something and leaves clues or traces to this effect.

In relation to islam sunnah could be of Allah, the prophet or even shaitan ie a person who does harmful or destructive things against the common interest of humanity.

Here I am going to explain the sunnah in context of prophetic mission ie the reaction of prophet to divine constitution and commandments etc.

Islam in quranic context is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of humanity.

Islam=peace mainly between people in the land or earth and peace is impossible between human beings unless they have some agreement between them which contains conditions or terms of their agreement. The quran is that constitution that provides that basis for all human beings.

Freedom means no man can be master or slave of another man be he a prophet of Allah. In fact according to quran it is not fitting for a prophet that Allah gives him his book and yet he tells people be my slaves or servants 3/64, 79. All people are bound in brotherhood of humanity ie no masters no slaves. No imperialism nor priesthood ie no malukiyat nor mullaiyat. None can rule people in the name of country as a king nor in the name of religion as a mullah.

Since the quran is divine constitution for mankind and people need a constitution for organising their societies for a set purpose or goal so anything that is told in the constitution has to be interpreted in that context. So any terms used in the quran must be interpreted within this context.

Since the quran is constitution of islam for the whole mankind, word sunnah of the prophet can only have a specific meanings. Any other meanings will not fit in or will cause problems. For example, some mullahs defined sunnah of the prophet as all his words, deeds and approvals by his silence etc as his sunnah. Any muslim who has a some information about this subject and has sense of reality of life will be able to see a lot of things wrong with definitions of sunnah of the prophet by all the mullahs of all the sects. One has to ask what went wrong? The answer is only given by sir syed and iqbal like people not mullahs. Sir syed draws our attention to rationality and iqbal to deen v mazhab and fasaad by malukiyati mullahs in the ummah in the name of mullah made shariat of islam.

Mullahs told ummah to live like the prophet by being like or doing exactly what he did in 7th century arabian settings. If he travelled by camel then that is the sunnah and if he used smoke signals so should we. If he wore a dress we should dress like him and so on. All this is not islam at all. Why not? Because it goes directly against the goals, aims and objectives or terms and conditions of islamic constitution=the quran. By following mullahs' islam people can never achieve the set goal of peace. There can never be peace in the world between human beings if we followed mullahs interpretation of islam which they did to please their kings long way back in time.

1)The fact is that people live as they live each according to his own nature or personality.

2)No two people are alike nor are they expected to be.

3)It is not possible to know each and every move of anyone ever.

4)It is not possible to have information about anyone to each and every minute detail

5)It is not possible to transmit vast information perfectly.

6)The prophet was a man not a woman, he lived like a man not like a woman. Women cannot grow beard and they have periods and give birth etc etc.

So any information of this nature cannot be called sunnah of the prophet because most of such information does not even exist.

The quran telling us the life of the prophet is best example for us to follow cannot mean this because the quran was not sent for us to do the impossible. So anyone who interprets the quran in an impractical way is misinterpreting the quran and misrepresenting it.

Even in the quran there are verses which according to existing interpretations tell us that certain things were only and only for the prophet and not for his followers. This tells us very clearly that the whole life of the prophet is not an example for us to follow but only certain of his actions in reaction to divine commandments for a set purpose.

The other factor is the changing world in which we live ie we all were born babies but we did not remain babies. So things that change with time and place cannot be defined as sunnah either. In story of the quran as interpreted by mullahs Adam and eve wore leaves of the trees as clothes. Does that mean all their children should do that because that is sunnah of our parents, who were parents of all the prophets? Why then our prophet did not wear tree leaves as his clothes because that is what his parents wore? Why did he not live in caves like prophets before him? All such like recorded incidences tell us these do not come under definition of sunnah of the prophets.

All these things force us by way of reason to define sunnah objectively. So the question is what is sunnah purpose wise?

The only answer is that Allah sent the prophet with his mission like a king sends his general for a battle to the battle ground to fight the war.

The question is, what role his followers ought to play? They are supposed to learn his goals, principles for his ways and means and help accomplish the goals. The followers are supposed to be supporters of their prophets ie they are supposed to help them do what they came to do. Like children help their parents or army helps its general to win the battle he comes in the battle field for.

This has nothing to do with kurta=shirt, pajaama or pagdi=turban per se because a man has to wear clothes. People live as they see their societies living. The fight is all about what is right and what is wrong and why that is the case?

In this context if we have to do things we should do them the right way ie we must have right goals and use right ways and means to achieve them.

Now coming to beard it is not the sunnah of the prophet at all rather that is the way his society used to live. All he did was told people to do things such a way that they look right and good. You wear clothes but ensure they fulfil their purposes eg they cover your body, they provide needed protection eg from heat and cold etc, they are nice and clean and and they look great on you when you wear them.

You have a beard then look after it ie don't make it look terrible on you because that will reflect badly on your personality. You wash your beard, comb it, trim it properly etc etc.

I hope my explanation helps understand the definition of word sunnah It will be good idea for us to question mullahs and expose them for what they really are ie people who follow others in doing things without any research and exploration of their own.

The quran in islam is a divine constitution and sunnah is all about how the prophet implemented it in his time in order to show how muslims to come should implement it in later times. This means laws the prophet legislated in light of the quran for his society in his time only apply in later times if the same situations and circumstances reoccur ie laws were formed by the prophet for a set purpose and for a set of circumstances or for certain situations. If those situations or circumstances do not occur again then those law do not apply.

The security measures that were taken by the prophet at the time were taken because the way the thing were at that time but today security situation is different so new laws ought to be legislated that meet current situations and circumstances. So the example of prophet is not the law but how he legislated and for what reason and how he implemented the laws and applied them to to achieve peaceful community life. Likewise muslims should legislate laws for their purposes that are applicable for their circumstances and situations that face them in order to ensure the end product ie peaceful society or community or state.

In islam law is not legislated for controlling people but for regulating society so that everything runs smoothly like in a household if all members in the house worked according to given rights and responsibilities.

This shows very clearly that mullah made laws are unislamic becausethey were formed on behest of kings to control people. By telling us to live like prophet did in 7th century today in 21st century, mullah are trying to destroy the message of the quran as well as holding back muslims from progress and therefore from prosperity and therefore from living peacefully. It is because if you turn back the clock then you cannot cope with life and cause problems for yourselves and rest of humanity. A very clear proof that mullahs are either ignorant fools or they are enemies of islam and muslims therefore agents of the devilish people who rather make human being suffer than be happy.

I hope this explanation helps understand the place value of the quran, the hadith and the fiqh clearly. Each has its own sphere and cannot be valid for any other purpose than is clearly defined.

How islamic laws are legislated dr israr (urdu)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGwILYbn ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dr israr is explaining that quran sets limits called HUDOODULLAH and people are free to legislate as they please within those set limits.

That means one cannot legislate for oppression or suppression of people or to inflict on people injustice or unfairness or cruelty or animosity etc etc all this because if people did that then peace will not be the result of doing that.

However in practice kings asked mullahs to make laws that suited them and they spread tem as islamic shariah. A shariah that we all have heard about but never bothered to study it.

People need to realise that the quran is very clear as to what it stand for and anything people attribute to prophet or earlier muslim generations if it works with the quran then it is fine but if it does not then interference from kings and mullahs is obvious so such interference must be rejected.

This explanation of principles should be sufficient to tell us what is true islam and what is not. The islam we come across is mostly not islam that is in the quran. It is mullah based islam that is recipe for wars even between muslims never mind muslims and kaafirs.

This is why mosque are funded and mullahs are given visas from backward countries to make islam a word of abuse in the world. Mullahs get money and authorities get what they want ie foolish masses. So the show goes on till we the masses learn better and stop being fooled by priests and governments or politicians etc.

regards and all the best.

Current jihaad is american made nothing to do with quranic teachings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcZKso_Z ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwU8eavP ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Fernando
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Fernando »

Mughal wrote:The main point is definition of word sunnah and here is what I make of it

Word Sunnah is from root SEEN, NOON and NOON. It has many meanings eg path, tradition, example, habit, age, era, formula, rule, law etc etc.
Mughal, you're at it again. You say that the word "Sunnah" has at least 9 meanings. In English, you might look up a word in Roget's Thesaurus and find a list of 9 or more other words that have similar meanings. That does not mean that all the words have the same meaning, or that the original word means the same as all the others. If what you say is correct then Arabic really is a broken language. Whereas it cannot be as ambiguous as that or, as Manfred has pointed out, conversation would be impossible. I'll allow, though, that the three rasm root might be capable as being read as all nine - in which case the raw written classical Arabic - and so the Koran - is all that is broken. Which is quite enough to undermine the Koran's credibility - Allah should have chosen a more advanced language: probably Latin and revealed his book to the Romans!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal's statements :
Mughal wrote:..............
Dear sum, you are talking about sunnah of the prophet.

......................................

1). In relation to islam sunnah could be of Allah, the prophet or even shaitan ie a person who does harmful or destructive things against the common interest of humanity.


2). Islam=peace mainly between people in the land or earth and peace is impossible between human beings unless they have some agreement between them which contains conditions or terms of their agreement. The quran is that constitution that provides that basis for all human beings.

3). Since the quran is divine constitution for mankind and people need a constitution for organising their societies for a set purpose or goal so anything that is told in the constitution has to be interpreted in that context. So any terms used in the quran must be interpreted within this context.

4). Since the quran is constitution of islam for the whole mankind, ......... One has to ask what went wrong? The answer is only given by sir syed and iqbal like people not mullahs. Sir syed draws our attention to rationality and iqbal to deen v mazhab and fasaad by malukiyati mullahs in the ummah in the name of mullah made shariat of islam.

5). Mullahs told ummah to live like the prophet by being like or doing exactly what he did in 7th century arabian settings. If he travelled by camel then that is the sunnah and if he used smoke signals so should we. If he wore a dress we should dress like him and so on. All this is not islam at all. Why not? Because it goes directly against the goals, aims and objectives or terms and conditions of islamic constitution=the quran. By following mullahs' islam people can never achieve the set goal of peace. There can never be peace in the world between human beings if we followed mullahs interpretation of islam which they did to please their kings long way back in time.


6)The prophet was a man not a woman, he lived like a man not like a woman. Women cannot grow beard and they have periods and give birth etc etc.


7). The only answer is that Allah sent the prophet with his mission like a king sends his general for a battle to the battle ground to fight the war.


8). The quran in islam is a divine constitution and sunnah is all about how the prophet implemented it in his time in order to show how muslims to come should implement it in later times. This means laws the prophet legislated in light of the quran for his society in his time only apply in later times if the same situations and circumstances reoccur ie laws were formed by the prophet for a set purpose and for a set of circumstances or for certain situations. If those situations or circumstances do not occur again then those law do not apply.

9). The security measures that were taken by the prophet at the time were taken because the way the thing were at that time but today security situation is different so new laws ought to be legislated that meet current situations and circumstances. So the example of prophet is not the law but how he legislated and for what reason and how he implemented the laws and applied them to to achieve peaceful community life. Likewise muslims should legislate laws for their purposes that are applicable for their circumstances and situations that face them in order to ensure the end product ie peaceful society or community or state.

10). In islam law is not legislated for controlling people but for regulating society so that everything runs smoothly like in a household if all members in the house worked according to given rights and responsibilities.
This shows very clearly that mullah made laws are unislamic becausethey were formed on behest of kings to control people. By telling us to live like prophet did in 7th century today in 21st century, mullah are trying to destroy the message of the quran as well as holding back muslims from progress and therefore from prosperity and therefore from living peacefully. It is because if you turn back the clock then you cannot cope with life and cause problems for yourselves and rest of humanity. A very clear proof that mullahs are either ignorant fools or they are enemies of islam and muslims therefore agents of the devilish people who rather make human being suffer than be happy
.
Well Mughal's statements above have too many red flags, too much hand waving and lot of histrionics but funny thing is Mughal is directing people to that fellow dr israr
How islamic laws are legislated dr israr (urdu)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGwILYbn ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dr israr is explaining that quran sets limits called HUDOODULLAH and people are free to legislate as they please within those set limits.

.....................
Current jihaad is american made nothing to do with quranic teachings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcZKso_Z ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwU8eavP ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That confuses hell out of me.. I am not sure why Mughal is giving dr Dr Israr Ahmad tubes..









do you really understand what that dr. srar Ahmad saying above dear Mughal ??

with best
yeezevee
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »




Black Flags from Khurasan by Dr Israr Ahmed



black flags from khorshan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbBYCkQc ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Qadianis are not muslims - Dr.Israr Ahmad (r.a)
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manfred
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

The prophet was a man not a woman, he lived like a man not like a woman. Women cannot grow beard and they have periods and give birth etc etc.
So "real men" behave like Mohammed??

A woman cannot grow a beard?

Image
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
Fernando
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:
The prophet was a man not a woman, he lived like a man not like a woman. Women cannot grow beard and they have periods and give birth etc etc.
So "real men" behave like Mohammed??

A woman cannot grow a beard?

Image
So that's why Muslims want their women in burkas!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

manfred wrote:
The prophet was a man not a woman, he lived like a man not like a woman. Women cannot grow beard and they have periods and give birth etc etc.
So "real men" behave like Mohammed??

..............
that is big red flag from Mughal..

Huh!



lucky that Bangladesh guy speaks Arabic....

Yap Quran is wonderful "quran
1 Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest.

12.2: Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

13.37: And thus have We revealed it, a true judgment in Arabic, and if you follow their low desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you shall not have against Allah any guardian or a protector.

20.113: And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

26:195: In plain Arabic language.

33:20: They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little.

39:8: An Arabic Quran without any crookedness, that they may guard (against evil).

41:3: A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

41:44: And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say: It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.

42: 7: And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire.

43:3: Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

46:12: And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.
yes we need to learn Arabic..
yeezevee
Posts: 6547
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Fernando wrote:So that's why Muslims want their women in burkas!
Sorry to say this but That is a very silly comment Mr. Fernando...................
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Dear yeezevee, thanks for raising your point that why I brought in dr israr. I am trying to show that islamic principles are accepted by all not just me but the difference is that these people then contradict the very principles by going against them due to their lack of understanding of the whole picture or may be that is what their objective is.

I do not bring others to show I agree with them but that they agree on the point I am making even though then they contradict themselves as well.

Concerning how shariah laws should be formed dr israr agrees and so do all the muillahs.They also agree that law brought in by prophet are shariah law but because those laws based upon purpose and reason for application therefore sunnah is not that they are laws but that how they are formed. In short the way prophet shown to legislate is sunnah not what he legislated because laws change with changes in purpose and changes in reason for their application.

The foundation of law in islam is islam itself ie the objective of achieving and maintaining peace. This being the case the rule for formation of laws is that anything that harms society is illegal and anything that benefits society is legal or lawful.

On this basis shoora=muslim parliament must deliberate as to what law should be concerning which issue. However what we see in books of fiqh is a whole lot of laws are anti islam because they create problems for people than help solve their problems. They create troubles instead of peace. They take away people's God given rights instead of fulfilling them. The quran is full of verses if one reads it. The whole war of words in the quran is all about rights and responsibilities of people to each other.

This is how we can very clearly see how the quran makes itself very clear and if people want to twist words out of their proper context then they expose themselves.

The real problem with people is they are not interested in rules and disciplines. They rather live in chaos and confusion. The result is the world that we have created for ourselves by this kind of mindset and attitude and approach to things. That is how people reap what they sow. If we want to change things for the better then we must organise ourselves and discipline ourselves and work hard according to some worthwhile roadmap.

Thanks for giving me opportunity to explain things a bit more.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

O yes, thanks for very nice picture of bearded woman. I know you like having fun. In general women do not have ability to grow beard. Not all people are normal men and women. Some vary from that normality or generality. My point was to show that not everyone can follow prophet in everything he was or did. Some differences are natural so telling us sunnah means something impossible nothing less than utter stupidity.
frankie
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by frankie »

Mughal:
Islam
in quranic context is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of humanity.

Islam=peace mainly between people in the land or earth and peace is impossible between human beings unless they have some agreement between them which contains conditions or terms of their agreement. The quran is that constitution that provides that basis for all human beings.

Freedom means no man can be master or slave of another man be he a prophet of Allah. In fact according to quran it is not fitting for a prophet that Allah gives him his book and yet he tells people be my slaves or servants 3/64, 79. All people are bound in brotherhood of humanity ie no masters no slaves. No imperialism nor priesthood ie no malukiyat nor mullaiyat. None can rule people in the name of country as a king nor in the name of religion as a mullah.

Since the quran is divine constitution for mankind and people need a constitution for organising their societies for a set purpose or goal so anything that is told in the constitution has to be interpreted in that context. So any terms used in the quran must be interpreted within this context.
You exhibit the same trait as all Muslims,i.e.you are full of bluster,at the end of which the reader is non the wiser.

Fundamentally it matters not whether Islam is a "religion" or not,the writings in the Quran are given to be from a divine origin,whose words are for ALL time.Its states categorically that Mohammed is the role model for humanity for ALL time. Therefore there is NO context,the Quran and its prophets example is THE context.

The freedom and justice you talk about, are only legitimate when practiced under the rules of Sharia,consequently then, there is NO freedom OR justice for Non Muslims because they are living in Dar al Harb,which makes them enemies of Allah,and therefore the enemies of Muslims.This means Muslims have Allahs consent to fight them,to bring them "in line" with Allahs rules or regulations,or bear the consequenses.

All this comes about because a deluded 7th century Arabian,made himself his tribal gods mouthpiece,the only way this man knew how to live, was by the way all desert dwellers lived in his time,by tribal warfare.This is how the Quranic writings come across,they are written in this time period,where all they knew about was "the survival of the fittest",i.e. submit,obey or die.

The Quran therefore cannot come from divine origin,its writings are based on submitting to a god through violence,killing the enemy,taking his property,and enslaving his women and children.

These are the traits of mankind,forever seen and felt throughout his history.They are not the traits of a divine intelligence,whose "rules" should allow him to be of a higher order.

If you have any sense of morality,or indeed any intelligence, you cannot possibly deduce that the Quran is from the same divine source as the N.T.(which it has to be, to legitimise it),for one simple reason, the teachings are diametrically opposed to each other.

Please stop all your reams and reams of mindless "justifications" they are absolutely meaningless,all they do is illustrate a desperation for Islam to be all true,when it is not.
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