Sensible people v senseless people

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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Mughal
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Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends,

Please read this post along with my other posts because I am always in mode of explaining things rather than arguing for sake of it. If you argue without any ense I am not for it but if you have anything sensible to say I am all for it. My point in my posts is to show people the unique criterion whereupon they can unite as a family and stop harming and destroying each otyher out of stupidity. Wasting human rsources in stupidity is not going to do any of us any good and harm and destruction that we inflict upon each other is self evident fact unless you are dereft of any value for any human life.

On any religious or anti religious webesite we each claim to know what the quranic text is actually saying, how do we know that what we are saying is true?

Please state your rules for your arguements.

Are you aware that arabic is a unique language? What is so unique about it? If you are an expert on arabic language you should have no problem knowing this. If you do not know this, can you then trust anyone who has explained the quran to you?

Are you aware that the quranic text itself is uniquely structured but what is so unique about that structure? If you are an expert on the quran againt you will have no problem knowing that. If you are not aware of this fact then how right are you in accepting anyone else's explanation of the quranic text?

Almost each and every word in arabic language has multiple meanings, can any of us deny that? Of course not. How do we know which meanings is most suitable in its place within the text that is there? If you are an expert in translating/interpreting any piece of information that should be a piece of cake. In arabic language some words have very very long explanations extending over thousands of words, involving pages after pages of explanations. This is also true about other languages to some extend, particularly about dead are dying languages.


Most muslims due to their igorance believe that the quran was fully explained by the prophet of islam, is that true? Any proof? No, there is no proof for that at all. It is because the quran needs no explanation and that is why there did not exist any. What we need is education for humans to be able to understand the quran. A baby cannot understand anything including the quran, why not? Is it because the quran is wrong or is it because he does not yet have sense to understand it? Books of language, maths, history, sciences etc etc already exist before kids are born but they do not know them til they are taught. So the explaantion is not needed for the books but for the people to help them understand the books that are written for their set purposes.

Most works that exist on islam other than the quran are collection of hearsay accounts which are neitehr totally false nor totally true. They can only be looked at in light of the quran as a criterion for their truth or falsehood. The quran can only be true if it could satisfy set out criterion base upon rules of wisdom. If the quran proves to be unique in what is claims to be as per its stated purpose then rest of information about islam can be easily understood through that insight. This further helps us understand other religious scriptures the same way to see waht is really true and what is really false in them and why.

Books we read today they came into being because people wanted to explain things for each other in order to spread knowledge. Some books were written for educating people about education itself. Other were writtenfor written for set purposes to explain things to them. School text books are an example of how children are educated to enable them to understand how to deal with real life situations if they come across them. These books only take people to a certain standard but then they need to undersand other books that actually deal with real life situations so that they understand and deal with those situations.

The allegedly divine scriptures are therefore not about eductinbg peoplke regarding education but about dealing with real life issues that other books do not deal with and they cannot deal with. Till a person is educated sufficiently to realise these real life issues one cannot see the need for divine scriptures and therfore is unable to benfit from them just like a child who has not realised the need for edcation.

The problem is that we cannot leave people alone to do as they please because for as long as people have been left alone, the result is the world we have today. It is still better than the animal world because a lot of species have become extinct. It is because people never fell to that level yet otherwose we topo coulsd have become extinct. Whenever people mess up things to a terribly destructive level someone from among them comes along and shows the better way of doing things to people and that helps them survive for another period of time till they do the same again.

Today also scientists, philosophers and religious authorities are divided. Likewise we have social, political, econimic, cultural etc etc divide and it is harming us a great deal. Time to rethink our positions and redjust ourselves inorder to minimise animosities between us that have been deliberately cetaed by those who benefit from this siuataon. The ruling elite, the priestly classes and the money lenders or bankers around the world and the worst of all the ignorant and the good for nothing sea of people throughout the world. In orde to chnage thinbgs for the better it is good use of our time to educate each other about things in order to help improve our world and not try to make things worse than they already are.

This is why we should try and educate each other about unique criterion that helps us create a better world for all of us otherwise we are just acting like rude kids in the playground.

regards and all the best
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Ozes
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Ozes »

The quran only has about 1800 different words. Which is quite a limited vocabulary. The quran itself claims to be clear for all, as it should be, it should be easy to translated as it argues for its clarity and detail.

How come translations of other books are not misunderstood to the point they cause people to murder and maim others?
Plato, Socrates, epicurus all have many text devoted to them, why doesnt anybody kill in their name despite the fact that so many Westerners read them?
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Ozes wrote:The quran only has about 1800 different words. Which is quite a limited vocabulary. The quran itself claims to be clear for all, as it should be, it should be easy to translated as it argues for its clarity and detail.

How come translations of other books are not misunderstood to the point they cause people to murder and maim others?
Plato, Socrates, epicurus all have many text devoted to them, why doesnt anybody kill in their name despite the fact that so many Westerners read them?
For looking up on violence of one person against another, find out statistics of each country and you will have better idea why people behave violently against each other. Nothing at all to do with the quran nor particularly with muslims.

Learn wider context of things or you will be acting like a frog in a well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VLKVFrx8ag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULopfMG ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXOMgg_n ... ure=relmfu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The quran has a lot more number of words than 1800 but what you are referring to is called roots not words. In arabic language words are made from roots and roots have meanings attached to them and meanings have reasons behind them upon which they are based.

This shows whta happened when people talk about things they have no idea about.
Last edited by Mughal on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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manfred
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

Are you aware that arabic is a unique language?
Every language is unique. Every language also belongs to a family.
Almost each and every word in arabic language has multiple meanings, can any of us deny that?
Not quite. A language that ambiguous would be unsuitable for communication. When we get the pages of explanation with quranic texts it is usually because the translator tries to hide a defect.
Most works that exist on islam other than the quran are collection of hearsay account
The quran too is a hearsay account.

Are you aware that the quranic text itself is uniquely structured
:lotpot: Oh totally. It is organised from the biggest to the smallest chapter, certainly an original way to organise a text.


I know where this is going. You want to justify rewriting the Quran into something that it is not. After all, that is what you have posted at great length here.

Tow points:

The quran has been translated many times, with a fair degree of consistency. Muslims have understood the text perfectly well and have acted accordingly. They do to this day. You can only fool some non-Muslims with false translations, but not many. The proof is eseentially in the way Muslims understand the text.

If you want to write a religious text of your own, great, do that. Make the world a better place. Just don't start with the abomination called the quran as your basis. Go ahead, start your own religion, wonderful idea. But start with your own ideas, not with the ones of a long dead arab warlord. His religion really is not worthy to be even called that. You are bound to be able to do better than that.

It is a common response for Muslims, when asked about the Qur'an, to claim a problem is really a translation problem. That is almost always an evasion strategy, as they rarely provide a satisfactory alternative. I recall a lengthy discussion about sperm emanating "between the backbone and the rib". The final position taken up by the Muslims was that it says neither "sperm", "between" "emanate", "backbone" nor "rib". (He left the "and") His final reading something like "Something is near/passes through/ is related to/ a part of the body and a different part of the body". This is complete gibberish, and merely a tactic to deal with problems. A problem may not exist, so it cannot, so the text is changed to hide the problem. I have seen it a million times

You ask how do we know what a text means? comparing translations is a good start. Look at related texts within the Qur'an. Hadith con sometimes tell you the historical context of a verse. Using some tafsir, perhaps. Look how Muslims understand it. It is pointless to suggest the text really means x when a billion Muslims are quite clear is means y.

Perhaps, Mughal, we need to have some of the ideas expressed in the quran that make me profoundly dislike that text. Then you can see why I think all your effort to dress up a bit will not help much. You need to look at the core messages.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Ozes
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Ozes »

Mughal wrote:
Ozes wrote:The quran only has about 1800 different words. Which is quite a limited vocabulary. The quran itself claims to be clear for all, as it should be, it should be easy to translated as it argues for its clarity and detail.

How come translations of other books are not misunderstood to the point they cause people to murder and maim others?
Plato, Socrates, epicurus all have many text devoted to them, why doesnt anybody kill in their name despite the fact that so many Westerners read them?
For looking up on violence of one person against another, find out statistics of each country and you will have better idea why people behave violently against each other. Nothing at all to do with the quran nor particularly with muslims.

Learn wider context of things or you will be acting like a frog in a well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VLKVFrx8ag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULopfMG ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So why does every great Imam and great Scholar of Islam who comes from the islamic world disagree with you?
Even if those statistics you mention are even somewhat telling, its a fact that the most mentioned concept, ideology or religion prior to initiating violence in history is Islam, Islamism and Allah.

What do you know about the quran, which shows itself to command violence, that most devout Muslims don't?
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
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skynightblaze
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

@Ozes
Mughal is trying to deceive you. He writes..
Mughal wrote:For looking up on violence of one person against another, find out statistics of each country and you will have better idea why people behave violently against each other. Nothing at all to do with the quran nor particularly with muslims.
Here are the statistics collected by wiki islam which refute this charlatan . Just watch the percentage of people supporting crime due to effect of islam .

Image

http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= ... 1204150223" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Ozes
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Ozes »

Thanks Sky, i was aware of this deception by the way. but your stats are clear and powerful.
Ah.... a friendly proposal lands in your pm box soon.
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
Mughal
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:
Are you aware that arabic is a unique language?
Every language is unique. Evey language also belongs to a family.
Almost each and every word in arabic language has multiple meanings, can any of us deny that?
Not quite. A language that ambiguous would be unsuitable for communication. When we get the pages of explanation with quranic texts it is usually because the translator tries to hide a defect.
Most works that exist on islam other than the quran are collection of hearsay account
The quran too is a hearsay account.

Are you aware that the quranic text itself is uniquely structured
:lotpot: Oh totally. It is organised from the biggest to the smallest chapter, certainly an original way to organise a text.


I know where this is going. You want to justify rewriting the Quran into something that it is not. After all, that is what you have posted at great length here.

Tow points:

The quran has been translated many times, with a fair degree of consistency. Muslims have understood the text perfectly well and have acted accordingly. They do to this day. You can only fool some non-Muslims with false translations, but not many. The proof is eseentially in the way Muslims understand the text.

If you want to write a religious text of your own, great, do that. Make the world a better place. Just don't start with the abomination called the quran as your basis. Go ahead, start your own religion, wonderful idea. But start with your own ideas, not with the ones of a long dead arab warlord. His religion really is not worthy to be even called that. You are bound to be able to do better than that.

It is a common response for Muslims, when asked about the Qur'an, to claim a problem is really a translation problem. That is almost always an evasion strategy, as they rarely provide a satisfactory alternative. I recall a lengthy discussion about sperm emanating "between the backbone and the rib". The final position taken up by the Muslims was that it says neither "sperm", "between" "emanate", "backbone" nor "rib". (He left the "and") His final reading something like "Something is near/passes through/ is related to/ a part of the body and a different part of the body". This is complete gibberish, and merely a tactic to deal with problems. A problem may not exist, so it cannot, so the text is changed to hide the problem. I have seen it a million times

You ask how do we know what a text means? comparing translations is a good start. Look at related texts within the Qur'an. Hadith con sometimes tell you the historical context of a verse. Using some tafsir, perhaps. Look how Muslims understand it. It is pointless to suggest the text really means x when a billion Muslims are quite clear is means y.

Perhaps, Mughal, we need to have some of the ideas expressed in the quran that make me profoundly dislike that text. Then you can see why I think all your effort to dress up a bit will not help much. You need to look at the core messages.
You are right dear manfred that each language is unique but what makes each language unique is not my point. My point is what makes arabic language unique among languages? One unique feature is that its words come from its roots. No other language has such structure. In all other languages words are words themselves they do not come from any root. This is something even most of the muslims have no idea about.

Beside this there is anther unique feature in arabic language which no other language has. May be you can tell me about that after consulting muslim scholars of your own choice. That should answer rest of your concerns as well.

What difference does it make to know these basic features in arabic language? Therein lay the answers of many questions that people raise against the quran. Unless one understand these features of arabic language all other studies for understanding the quran become useless.

This is why all translations of the quran are rubbish because they do not tell us what the quran is actually telling us. They do not have this foundation that I am talking about.

The reason mullahs are wrong is because they were originally slaves of rulers and that is why they interpreted the quran wrongly. Once imperial backing was gievn to mullahs they spread the concepts of their own in guise of the quran and islam.

In the other thread you have asked about jinns. It is because you have no idea how a language works that you have asked this question in a very wrong way that makes not sense.

You were unable to differentiate between word used as a label and the object or concept that it labels. A very serious linguistic error.

The quran uses word JINN but what does it mean by it is the real question. This is the difference understanding a language makes. Now you know it for sure that you have asked the wrong question.

You cannot believe in anything unless first you know what it is supposed to be and you cannot know what it is supposed to be till you contextualise it. Once you contextualise it properly only then question arises, whether anyone believes in that concept labelled by a certain word or not.

It is these like points that brought me back to study of this book again. Had the original been lost, that would have been impossible. This is another reason why the quran is a unique book.

In the quranic context jinns are people not ghosts or spirits. Those who claim they are none material beings do they know what they talking about? Did they see any of those things? If they did not then how did they come to know that these words mean those creatures that they have invented themselves in their own minds?

They make similar claims about word MALAAIKAH. One need to look up dictionaries to see what are malaalkah. They too are not none material beings as people have invented concepts in their own minds. They to are people. When word jinn is used for harmful and destructive leading people, word malaaikah is used for constructive and beneficial leading people.

The quranic verses that tell us about malaaikah carrying throne of God, it does not means angles carrying some physical structure on their shoulders. It is about people who serve kingdom of God ie they shoulder responsibilities of running a state according to divine laws.

In hindu religion people think of DEVA NAGRI=kingdom of God, or RAAM NAGRI. What this means in quranic context is divine kingdom. Kingdom of God is also christian terminology or kingdom of heaven. The quran uses word JANNAT=blissful place and blissful place is a garden like place.

The quranic text conveys concepts about things. In the quran there is no senseless violence concept at all. I cannot answer each and every person because I have no time but if one reads my posts one will seen how things make perfect sense when they are looked upon in their proper context.

It is not people here on this forum that I am challenging on translations of the quran but muslim mullahs particularly. It is because they invented translation idea to derail message of the quran on behest of rulers and bankers.

Their explanation of banking interest is very interesting, shows us who is paying for all this and way. Jihaad is also promoted by arm industry in the world as well as the land and resources grabbers. You sell arms to people they kill each other and you take over their land and resources because that is only thing they have to buy arms. Very simple logic how world is run by thugs and crooks and how ignorant and stupid masses are burying their heads in sand everywhere in the word. People sitting in their houses thinking the fire burning the other end of the world is not going to reach their houses so they are safe. Very silly indeed.

Let us not hide behind nonsense excuses let us educate each other and work together to throw out rotten fish from our societies in order to be safe and prosperous. That is what needs to be done instead of wasting time in silly arguments.

If we really want peaceful, progressive and prosperous world then we must take appropriate action against those who amongst us sow the seed of animosity through distrust and mistrust by way of causing misconception and deceptions by way of misinformation and disinformation.

If we want to be a people who can look at themselves in the mirror and be really proud, then we must stop all harm and destruction by people upon each other. This is not possible unless we educate each other in a way that benefits all of us not a few of the ruling elite, priests and bankers.

regards and al the best
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

skynightblaze wrote:@Ozes
Mughal is trying to deceive you. He writes..
Mughal wrote:For looking up on violence of one person against another, find out statistics of each country and you will have better idea why people behave violently against each other. Nothing at all to do with the quran nor particularly with muslims.
Here are the statistics collected by wiki islam which refute this charlatan . Just watch the percentage of people supporting crime due to effect of islam .

Image

http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= ... 1204150223" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These statistic do not make much sense. Tell me what % is adulterer and thief etc? Then how many of them are convicted and how many are actually punished? After having that much information go and compare it with violent crimes in any state. For your information people can claim anything but are they really that what they claim to be?

You are telling me anyone who never even read the quran in his life for understanding it is a practising muslim. My point is simple that ignorance breads all sorts of problems, challenge it if you cvan.

Islam does not teach senseless violence against anyone and that is true. To say that it does one has to prove it and that cannot be proven from translations because people who translated the quran were not aware of certain things that they would have been if they were true to the quranic concepts. Why were they not true, there are ample reasons but mainly because people like to dominate others and any book that tells them do not do this they simply ignore it or make use of it some other way to kick it out of their way.
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manfred
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

One unique feature is that its words come from its roots.
There is nothing unique in that at all. Many languages have this. Hebrew is quite similar in that respect.

Here is a simple example from A Western European Language: (German)
"brechen" means to to break. (root)
Verbrechen (noun) is a crime, a break of the law
Zerbrechen means to smash (mainly crockery)
Unterbrechen means interrupt (break the flow...)
anbrechen is no open a new package (break the wrapping)
abbrechen to demolish, also to stop doing something
aufbrechen is to start a journey
zusammenbrechen means to collapse or faint
ausbrechen to escape
Einbrechen to burgle, (break in) also Einbrecher as a noun.
There are lots more, but I think this makes the point.

One logical mistake often brought to defend something in the Qur'an is to suggest that a derived word means the same as the root word. That is obviously not the case, virtually always. Why else have derived words, and not use the root?
This is why all translations of the quran are rubbish
Not true. In translating sometime SOME of the subtleties of meaning are lost. That is often the case with humour. However, it is easily fixed by explaining.

As I started using German here is a very bad German joke:

Warum hat Khomeini sich seine Schamhaare rasiert? Dann glänzen seine Eier toller.

Now, if I translate that into English, we get:

Why did Khomeini shave his pubic hair? Then his eggs will be more shiny.

I think you agree that makes no sense. First we need to know that the "eggs" can also mean testicles. And "eier toller" sounds like "ayatollah" So the joke says Khomeini became an Ayatollah by by making his testicles look shiny...

Terrible joke, ok, but that is not the point. But as you can see, I can explain it in English perfectly well.

Anything is translatable, sometimes, you need to include a comment, or provide the different meanings if a sentence has more than one.

The untranslatability of the Qur'an is a convenient myth invented in a futile attempt to hide the text from non-Muslims. In fact, most Muslims rely entirely on translations, as only a few know Arabic.
malaaikah is used for constructive and beneficial leading people.

ملاك is an angel, in Arabic, and in many other Asian languages.According to Islam, Angels were created from light, jinn from smokeless fire, man from... well depends where you look in the Quran. An angel also has no free will in Islam and cannot therefore disobey Allah. Obviously Islamic angels are not people. A leader or king is ملك, a similar sounding word, but not at all related.

Instead of playing the age-old word game, it would be better to look at the actual core messages of the quran and discuss those.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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manfred
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

These statistic do not make much sense.
It simply means this:

On the top row you have three provisions from Shariah law, on how to deal with certain things, adultery, theft and apostasy.

A survey asked people if they agreed with these punishments in a number of countries. The percentages are those those who responded yes.
So is says that in Turkey about 16% of the (I assume Muslim) population said stoning is an appropriate response to adultery. In Pakistan, 82% said that an adulterer should be stoned. (Even though the Qur'an doesn't...)

This is how I understand it, anyway...

Does it make more sense now?
My point is simple that ignorance breads all sorts of problems, challenge it if you can.
Ignorance can cause problems. For many Muslims, ignorance is also a defence. Don't ask questions, as the quran itself demands. That way people keep themselves in a state of ignorance; but it is not an innocent ignorance if you had the means and capacity to examine Islam, and chose not to.

Also, Mughal, the real issue is not even what the quran says. It is what Muslim believe it says TO THEM. You will not be able to convince any Muslim that centuries of thought and practice are in fact wrong. They will tell you that you are a dangerous innovator, and they may even accuse you of apostasy, and kill you. Maybe that is why you tell us all this stuff, and not your Muslims friends?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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skynightblaze
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by skynightblaze »

Mughal wrote:These statistic do not make much sense.
These statistics make sense. The first stage to committing a crime is preparing your mind for it. When that is done the job is half done so what islam does is prepare the mind of its believers to commit a crime so these statistics ring an alarming bell. Now let us deal with your next argument.
Mughal wrote: Tell me what % is adulterer and thief etc? Then how many of them are convicted and how many are actually punished? After having that much information go and compare it with violent crimes in any state. For your information people can claim anything but are they really that what they claim to be?
Statistics for what you are asking are not mentioned however let us play your game that very few people actually commit the theft and adultery and even few are actually punished. So the question to you is “Does it mean that islam a good religion and people are bad? OR does it show that people are good and religion is bad? The answer is the later. I think there is nothing to be proud of here. It only means that we are lucky and not everyone is following religion seriously but this does not get islam off the hook. It still means that islam is a potentially dangerous religion and hence it should be condemned rightfully.

Now we also need to see other crimes committed in name of islam before we can draw any conclusion about effect of islam on mankind.

Let us play your card and apply it to other crimes like terrorism which directly comes from the quran as well as the hadith. Let us only 0.1% of a 1.5 billion muslims are actually jihadist. The number of jihadists comes out to 1.5 million. 1.5 million terrorists are sufficient to blow up the entire world and they are terrorist because they follow the sunnah and the quran literally. We don’t need all the muslims to become terrorist for this world to end.

So should we keep the religion of islam that has the potential to destroy the entire mankind? Again you simply did not think of the impact that islam can have irrespective of numbers. Same applies to punishments for adultery and
theft. The impact on the individual's life is significant.It seems you do not care victims.

Since you want numbers, I am going to present some stats for you which should shut you up for good ..
Spoiler! :
Islam promotes anti Semitism and the effect is seen in a survey.
Pew survey finds all 7 Muslim-majority nations polled have a negative opinion of Jews (2-9% positive).
Most violent attacks on Jews in Western Europe comes from people of Arab/Muslim heritage.
Paedophilia is due to islam. Read below..
4 out of 5 Middle-Eastern women are sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 6 by family members.
Islam is against homosexuality and the effect is seen in the quote below.
Two thirds of all reported incidents of anti-gay violence in Amsterdam are by Muslim youths.
Islam tells you that women are deficient in intelligence.
Nearly 1 in 3 people in the Arab world are illiterate, including nearly half of all women.
Islam preaches hatred against disbelievers and the effect is seen below.
Almost 80 percent (3 out of every 4) of US mosques preach anti-West extremism.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mughal wrote: You are telling me anyone who never even read the quran in his life for understanding it is a practising muslim. My point is simple that ignorance breads all sorts of problems, challenge it if you cvan.
It is not ignorance but rather sound knowledge of islam which makes people commit horrendous crimes. Stats have been given to you above.
Mughal wrote: Islam does not teach senseless violence against anyone and that is true. To say that it does one has to prove it and that cannot be proven from translations because people who translated the quran were not aware of certain things that they would have been if they were true to the quranic concepts. Why were they not true, there are ample reasons but mainly because people like to dominate others and any book that tells them do not do this they simply ignore it or make use of it some other way to kick it out of their way.
So what did you discover today after 1400 years that people have been consistently failing to recognize? Pick any Islamic scripture all you find is violence written over again and again. It is like a crime guide.

One more thing how come all the translators roughly agree within themselves? There are some differences between all the translations however they are not so significant that it completely changes the meaning of the underlying text for e.g one translator translates the verse as “make peace” while the other translator translates it to “make war”. Now if people were lying or ignorantly writing translations of quran then how come their translations match to a fair degree? If people write different things randomly without understanding then we should be finding radically different translations just like the example I gave above.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:
One unique feature is that its words come from its roots.
There is nothing unique in that at all. Many languages have this. Hebrew is quite similar in that respect.

Here is a simple example from A Western European Language: (German)
"brechen" means to to break. (root)
Verbrechen (noun) is a crime, a break of the law
Zerbrechen means to smash (mainly crockery)
Unterbrechen means interrupt (break the flow...)
anbrechen is no open a new package (break the wrapping)
abbrechen to demolish, also to stop doing something
aufbrechen is to start a journey
zusammenbrechen means to collapse or faint
ausbrechen to escape
Einbrechen to burgle, (break in) also Einbrecher as a noun.
There are lots more, but I think this makes the point.

One logical mistake often brought to defend something in the Qur'an is to suggest that a derived word means the same as the root word. That is obviously not the case, virtually always. Why else have derived words, and not use the root?
This is why all translations of the quran are rubbish
Not true. In translating sometime SOME of the subtleties of meaning are lost. That is often the case with humour. However, it is easily fixed by explaining.

As I started using German here is a very bad German joke:

Warum hat Khomeini sich seine Schamhaare rasiert? Dann glänzen seine Eier toller.

Now, if I translate that into English, we get:

Why did Khomeini shave his pubic hair? Then his eggs will be more shiny.

I think you agree that makes no sense. First we need to know that the "eggs" can also mean testicles. And "eier toller" sounds like "ayatollah" So the joke says Khomeini became an Ayatollah by by making his testicles look shiny...

Terrible joke, ok, but that is not the point. But as you can see, I can explain it in English perfectly well.

Anything is translatable, sometimes, you need to include a comment, or provide the different meanings if a sentence has more than one.

The untranslatability of the Qur'an is a convenient myth invented in a futile attempt to hide the text from non-Muslims. In fact, most Muslims rely entirely on translations, as only a few know Arabic.
malaaikah is used for constructive and beneficial leading people.

ملاك is an angel, in Arabic, and in many other Asian languages.According to Islam, Angels were created from light, jinn from smokeless fire, man from... well depends where you look in the Quran. An angel also has no free will in Islam and cannot therefore disobey Allah. Obviously Islamic angels are not people. A leader or king is ملك, a similar sounding word, but not at all related.

Instead of playing the age-old word game, it would be better to look at the actual core messages of the quran and discuss those.

Dear manfred,

I wrote:

One unique feature is that its words come from its roots.

And you replied:

There is nothing unique in that at all. Many languages have this. Hebrew is quite similar in that respect.

My reply:

Could you please give a reference to any language dictionary that is written like arabic dictionaries based on roots including hebrew? Thanks in advance for your help.

You also replied:

Here is a simple example from A Western European Language: (German)
"brechen" means to to break. (root)
Verbrechen (noun) is a crime, a break of the law
Zerbrechen means to smash (mainly crockery)
Unterbrechen means interrupt (break the flow...)
anbrechen is no open a new package (break the wrapping)
abbrechen to demolish, also to stop doing something
aufbrechen is to start a journey
zusammenbrechen means to collapse or faint
ausbrechen to escape
Einbrechen to burgle, (break in) also Einbrecher as a noun.
There are lots more, but I think this makes the point.

My reply:

This is not about roots and their meanings and the purposes behind them. Here you are giving an example of inflections ie derivatives of root words. These derivatives are based upon categorisations of groups of words for explanation of grammatical rules as well as the uses of words in sentences. The changes that occur in words in sentences depend upon grammatical grouping of words. For example a noun in a sentence is used as a subject or an object but changes could be made to the same word if it is used as an adjective instead. Not only that nouns could also be changed due to form or gender etc. Likewise take words classified as verbs. These words have indefinite form as well as other forms eg simple and participle. These changes are not what I am talking about for arabic roots and these changes are known as inflections. ROOT is not indefinite form of any word in arabic. indefinite form of verb for example is called MASDAR which is turned into MAZAARE in a sentence ie definitive form of verb. ROOT is called MAADA in arabic. So ROOT idea is uniquely arab idea and is not found in any other language as far as I am aware.


You wrote:

One logical mistake often brought to defend something in the Qur'an is to suggest that a derived word means the same as the root word. That is obviously not the case, virtually always. Why else have derived words, and not use the root?

My reply:

You are lost here dear manfred. The concept of root is unique to arabic language and the root is not fixed in meanings in arabic language instead each root is based upon a fixed concept with reasoning and purpose behind it. This is only and only present in arabic language.

I hope now you can see why without knowing these facts people cannot translate the quran correctly.

I wrote:

This is why all translations of the quran are rubbish

You replied:

Not true. In translating sometime SOME of the subtleties of meaning are lost. That is often the case with humour. However, it is easily fixed by explaining.

As I started using German here is a very bad German joke:

Warum hat Khomeini sich seine Schamhaare rasiert? Dann glänzen seine Eier toller.

Now, if I translate that into English, we get:

Why did Khomeini shave his pubic hair? Then his eggs will be more shiny.

I think you agree that makes no sense. First we need to know that the "eggs" can also mean testicles. And "eier toller" sounds like "ayatollah" So the joke says Khomeini became an Ayatollah by by making his testicles look shiny...

Terrible joke, ok, but that is not the point. But as you can see, I can explain it in English perfectly well.

Anything is translatable, sometimes, you need to include a comment, or provide the different meanings if a sentence has more than one.

My reply:

You have answered your own question that concepts cannot be transferred by simple word for word translations. It is the message you want to convey is the important reason because that is why you are translating the text in the first place. If you fail to convey the message in the text then you have wasted the time and confused the readers of so called your translation.

You wrote:

The untranslatability of the Qur'an is a convenient myth invented in a futile attempt to hide the text from non-Muslims. In fact, most Muslims rely entirely on translations, as only a few know Arabic.

My reply:

Translating allegedly divine scriptures in a confusing way is not the right way to do it. It is because words are difficult to remember as a list in a language and more difficult to remember them for their meanings or concepts and yet more difficult to remember them for their uses that people have written so many books to help mankind. This is why we have loads of dictionaries and other helpful books to help us understand texts.

There are dictionaries of the same language eg english into english but they are simple as well as very complex. Simple ones explain words with other words eg synonyms. Complex ones take a word and explain it in detail.

The question is, how did the dictionaries come about and why they keep on changing? It is because human knowledge is increasing with time and the very same texts that were written centuries back in time today give us very different sense of things so the words that are understood better today because the things they talk about are known better today hence the modification is a natural process. This process will always continue as it has been. Because humans learn in time with efforts and can make mistakes therefore ruling out revisions is a very bad idea because you are getting rid of idea of correction or improvement. For same reason all works regardless translations or explanations of the quran are human works and cannot be ruled out for mistakes and deliberate twists. So if what we are told makes no sense it must be looked at again just to ensure we are not throwing away baby with the bath tub. The meanings given to quranic words by people need to be revisited in case they are taken in wrong context. It is quite possible that people before us did not understand of the things that we understand better than them.

The other important question is, why the quranic text must change meanings with time or better understanding of the things the quran is talking about?

The quran should be looked at in at least two ways a)as a human work and b)as a divine work. Only by reading the quran in its original text one can come to conclusion whether it is a human work or divine, provided one has the proper knowledge about things it is talking about.

In my other posts I have explained in detail what is basis for our knowledge to begin with. The basic fact is we have brains and and a lot of information to make sense of.

We humans are on a mission of discovery or a fact finding mission. It is like we just found a dead body of a person and we do not know what happened to the person so we start an investigation process.

It should be clear to all that we begin with suppositions and start building the whole picture like building a huge structure brick by brick. Just like theory of evolution.

This is why when we do not know anything for certain about anything this is the way we start with it. This is why if we are interested in proper investigation of the matter relating the quran we must follow a procedure that is sensible and not throw around our misconceptions and confusion about it.

Now if we suppose the quran is wrod of man then we must ask ourselves, could a human produce such a book? This question cannot be answered unless one fully investigates the matter. Likewise it is wrong to take it as a word of God without proper investigation. In either case we must suppose it as word of man and word of God. The conclusion should be clear.

I could go into a lot more detail but unfortunately I do not have time for that. However my posts should leave one in no doubt that it is not not that easy to dismiss the quran.


I wrote:

malaaikah is used for constructive and beneficial leading people.

You replied:

ملاك is an angel, in Arabic, and in many other Asian languages.According to Islam, Angels were created from light, jinn from smokeless fire, man from... well depends where you look in the Quran. An angel also has no free will in Islam and cannot therefore disobey Allah. Obviously Islamic angels are not people. A leader or king is ملك, a similar sounding word, but not at all related.

Instead of playing the age-old word game, it would be better to look at the actual core messages of the quran and discuss those.

My reply:

Dear manfred, here you are at loss due to lack of understanding of root concept. Word angel does not mean a being with supernatural power that is immaterial. No where in the quran we read angles are a separate kind of creation from light.

At the time of revelation of the quran there were two opposing concepts that existed a) from point of view of God and b) from the point of view of humans. The quran terms human baseless beliefs as make beliefs. They see meanings in words that they desire to see or that they take after their fancy. The quran states that pagans believed angles were daughters of Allah but it denies that. This is sufficient to prove that God uses words in the quran according to his concepts of things whereas people have their own concepts about things.

The very purpose of revelation of the quran is said to be to correct concepts of people and not to follow their concepts. So word MALAAIKAH simply means people work according to divine will ie laws. So people who breach divine laws are not angels. There is nothing in the quran to suggest angels do not have free will.


Finally let me also explain why my translation is correct and other are wrong, it is because my translation is conceptual translation not word for word where the translator fails to convey his own understanding of the text as well as from any other point of view. I explain words rather than find some similar word in another language because that word in the other language also needs explanation for those who do not know the uses of those words even in their own languages.

Take a mathematical expression for sake of explanation of my point. Say, a=b(c+d-e)f(g-h+i) etc. Here the object of the formula is 'a' but it is said to be equal to the rest of the elements of the expression on the other side that balances 'a'. Whether we use one or the other side of the expression makes no difference to the answer we will get fort the equation.

Now open up a good dictionary in english language and look up for meanings of a word in it. You will see a lot of words being used to explain the word. Whether you use the word or its explanations makes no difference for a person who understands that detail other than the fact that working with a lot more words is going to need extra effort and time. Likewise I am using detail of words rather than words for words because if you read what I have written it makes better sense.

If you must compare my translation then look at context of each surah and see who is making better sense of the text and who is leaving us in utter confusion.

My work is based upon rules that were already there and well explained by muslim scholars through out time and most recently by people like sir syed, farahi, iqbal and parwez and now by ghamdi etc.

It was always rulers who had power and they always put before public their mullahs who served them hence most important works by great scholars were kept hidden from masses as much as it was in power of rulers just like today.

Ignorant mullahs and masses are mad and well educated scholars are always target of wrath of those whose interest is at stake if true message of islam gets through to ordinary masses.

The mullahs shariah has nothing to do with islam but yes that is what most people who claim to be muslims accept as islamic law. Just because ignorant people follow wrong concepts and do wrong things it would not be right to blame the quran or islam for that. After all quran is not for muslims only but for everyone to see it for oneself. If people keep delaying the building of divine kingdom then who is at a loss? Not Gid but us people. If we are happy to continue fighting each other then by all means carry on. In that case keep killing and getting killed and keep inflicting each other with pain and suffering. Good luck to all who stand for that. The quran was kept out of picture for last 1300+ years so what difference it makes if we kept it out of our way for another so many years? It was always humanity that lost not the divine message.

regards and all the best.
Last edited by Mughal on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:
manfred wrote:
One unique feature is that its words come from its roots.
There is nothing unique in that at all. ....................
If you must compare my translation then look at context of each surah and see who is making better sense of the text and who is leaving us in utter confusion.

My work is based upon rules that were already there and well explained by muslim scholars through out time and most recently by people like sir syed, farahi, iqbal and parwez and now by ghamdi etc.
.
dear Mughal.. whatever you are doing is good and it is worth doing.,

but please DO NOT CONSIDER your translated version of Quran is word of Allah God and Prophet of Islam as last messenger .. I am sure you know well that it was political doctrine of that time .. nothing more and nothing less..

with best
yezevee
frankie
Posts: 2616
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:@Ozes
Mughal is trying to deceive you. He writes..
Mughal wrote:For looking up on violence of one person against another, find out statistics of each country and you will have better idea why people behave violently against each other. Nothing at all to do with the quran nor particularly with muslims.
Here are the statistics collected by wiki islam which refute this charlatan . Just watch the percentage of people supporting crime due to effect of islam .

Image

http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= ... 1204150223" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These statistic do not make much sense. Tell me what % is adulterer and thief etc? Then how many of them are convicted and how many are actually punished? After having that much information go and compare it with violent crimes in any state. For your information people can claim anything but are they really that what they claim to be?

You are telling me anyone who never even read the quran in his life for understanding it is a practising muslim. My point is simple that ignorance breads all sorts of problems, challenge it if you cvan.

Islam does not teach senseless violence against anyone and that is true. To say that it does one has to prove it and that cannot be proven from translations because people who translated the quran were not aware of certain things that they would have been if they were true to the quranic concepts. Why were they not true, there are ample reasons but mainly because people like to dominate others and any book that tells them do not do this they simply ignore it or make use of it some other way to kick it out of their way.
Mughal:
Still trying to convince yourself your version of Islam is the true one?

I am still waiting for a response on a previous thread,perhaps you would care to address it before you get too bogged down in too much mis information?

How did Mohammed further the cause of Islam,and how do his followers do the same, by following his example?

If you have any trouble answering you can always refer to Bukhari Book 52 volume 4 for help,or even better The Quran,with verses 2.216, 4.74, 8.34,9.29,9.111 to confirm your answer.


You may also find the following helpful in your quest to decide whether the "Mullahs" have got it all wrong.

Tools to help non-Arabic speakers investigate Arabic Qur'an

by martin » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:43 pm

The following free, online resources will be useful to anyone investigating the Qur’an, hadith and tafsir (commentaries). These are invaluable when researching about a particular word, verse or topic.

Transliteration of the Qur’an and many compared English translations
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Word-for-word Arabic-English translation and transliteration with annotated grammar, syntax and morphological information for each word, view occurances of a word. This site is superb.
http://corpus.Quran.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Download tool to find occurances of root Arabic words, with links to entries for the word in scans of Lane’s authoritative Arabic-English Lexicon.
http://www.studyQuran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Search the hadith in English
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... earch.html

See many different Arabic tafsir (commentaries) for any selected verse in the Qur’an, and a few in English
http://www.altafsir.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Search the Qur’an by verse number or in English, see English translations, Arabic text and transliteration
http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Search the transliterated Qur’an with phonetic search
http://www.islamicity.com/ps/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a couple of useful sites if you can can read any Arabic:

Search the Qur’an, hadith and tasfir in Arabic
http://www.ekabakti.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Search the Qur’an, hadith, tasfir and biographies of Muhammad in Arabic
http://hadith.al-islam.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mughal
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Mughal »

Thanks dear yeezevee but my main concern is treatment of people by each other. People are used and abused by rich and powerful feudals who are political leaders who control economic conditions as well as religious leaders with feudal mindset and attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdmqx2NY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj0MBiRB ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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manfred
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by manfred »

Sorry to have to insist but the root system you call unique in Arabic is nothing like it.

Similar ideas exist in many languages, even modern ones like German.

Here is a very brief explanation of the same idea in Hebrew, as you did not believe me when I told you before.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/26_roots.html

Arabic is in fact quite similar to Hebrew, and if you know one it is quite quick to learn the other. True, there are differences too, but both are Semitic languages with a sizable overlap of vocabulary and grammatical structures.

Your rendering of the Quran in misleading. The proof of this claim would be simple: go and take your surahs to your home in Pakistan, and tell people this is what the Qur'an really says. You would be lucky to escape execution. But you know that, don't you?

As I said, what really matters is not your white-wash; it is utterly irrelevant. What matters is ONLY what Muslims generally BELIEVE the Qur'an tells them. They do not agree with you. To them the Qur'an's message is clear, the translations generally accepted if done by Muslims, and seen in conjunction with tafsir. I can only surmise that your rendering is a deliberate attempt to fool non-Muslims; this is despicable.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
yeezevee
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:Thanks dear yeezevee but my main concern is treatment of people by each other. People are used and abused by rich and powerful feudals who are political leaders who control economic conditions as well as religious leaders with feudal mindset and attitude.
I understand your point but whose fault is this hero worshiping? where do you think it comes from? Right from religious that you read and you see in so called religious books.. including Quran,
well you can see that patronizing of leaders/prophets/Mullhas by people right in the hadith and in Quran + in every religious book that you can read So your approach to human problems in 21st century can not be having one more translation of Quran. Translating and reading Quran is not going to solve the feudal problems/corruption political or other wise in Muslim socities. But you do need that alternate translation for those who would like live as Muslim of any sect., I don't care as long as they use GOLDEN RULE to run their lives. Their belief is their personal problem not mine and neither the society should care of what they believe.
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by iffo »

@Mughal,

Mughal you should leave Islam and become sensible. Please check my site and leave Islam today. Quran is not from any intelligent god, you know it very well, so don't waste your time. If you disagree with any thing feel free to ask.

http://falseislam.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Idesigner
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Re: Sensible people v senseless people

Post by Idesigner »

Moghul you are neither a philologist nor an expert on semantics of languages.

We all know very well that you are neither a native speaker of Arabic, nor a scholar of Arabic language.Tell me how many years you spent learning Arabic and do you have any language credential in Arabic? to prove your case? You are just a garden variety Urdu speaking Pakistani .Like us all you depend on translation of Arabic words into English or Urdu. However you invent your own meanings. Why should we believe you?

Menfred tried his best to argu with you about subject of "root" words" in other languages.All languages have some root words mostly verbs from which nouns of all kind are derived. Arabic is no exception.All languages are full of nuances, its not monopoly of Arabic. All languages have different meaning for same word and speakers use context to understand the meaning.

I dont care whether Arabic is unique language or not but like any other language it can be translated into other languages. Even archaic , ancient, nearly forgotten languages literature can be translated into other languages.Dont think these languages are primitive. They are every beat as complex as Arabic or english.
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