Black Stone and al-Uzza

[marduk]

Al-Uzza was the most worshiped of the gods in Mecca by the pre-Islamic Arabs. Friday was her holy day and green was her color. Al-Uzza was associated with the constellation Libra. I think this must be what the Black Stone is facing, the rising of Libra.

I stated in another post that when the S/E corner of the Kaaba is split in half with a 45 degree line that the line is oriented to about 102 degrees from North. I thought it was pointing at the rising of Rigel but that star was never mentioned in pre-Islamic Arabian religion. It so happens that the sun rises at that same angle when in Libra. So this appears to be the definitive solution to the positioning of the corner of the Kaaba and the Black Stone in particular. You can also see Venus just next to the sun. Venus was associated with Allat.

[Ghaith]

Al-Uzza was the most worshiped of the gods in Mecca by the pre-Islamic Arabs. Friday was her holy day and green was her color. Al-Uzza was associated with the constellation Libra. I think this must be what the Black Stone is facing, the rising of Libra. I also think that Ramadan was meant to coincide with the month in which the sun rose in Libra, as shown below.

I stated in another post that when the S/E corner of the Kaaba is split in half with a 45 degree line that the line is oriented to about 102 degrees from North. I thought it was pointing at the rising of Rigel but that star was never mentioned in pre-Islamic Arabian religion. It so happens that the sun rises at that same angle when in Libra. So this appears to be the definitive solution to the positioning of the corner of the Kaaba and the Black Stone in particular.

Very interesting Marduk, did you know the black stone wasnt where it is today at the time of Muhammad or in the pre-islamic time?

[marduk]

No, just that Muhammad stuck it on there when he was 35, according to Islam, after the Kaaba was rebuilt following flood damage. Was it on there before it was rebuilt? I don't know. It is apparently an idol associated with al-Uzza though.

[marduk]

Actually, I can't find much evidence of al-Uzza being associated with the constellation Libra, just one site. I guess the S/E corner of the Kaaba and the Black Stone were meant to align to Sirius after all, as others had surmised. The Libra thing is still possible but Sirius seems like a stronger candidate, being the brightest star and Canopus the 2nd brightest. Since the Kaaba is aligned to Canopus it seems likely that the Stone was aligned to Sirius, a popular star for worship in the region.

In Arabia, too, it was an object of veneration, especially by the tribe of Kais, and probably by that of Kodha'a, although Muhammad expressly forbade this star-worship on the part of his followers. Yet he himself gave much honor to some "star" in the heavens that may have been this.

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Sirius.html

The history of pre-Islamic Arabia brings into light the fact that the Arabs, besides the worship of idols, worshipped the heavenly bodies, trees and dead heroes of their tribes. "The Sun (Shams) construed as feminine, was honoured by the several Arabian tribes with a sanctuary and an idol. The name 'Abd Shams is found in many parts of the country. In the North we meet with the name Amr-I-Shams, "man of the Sun". For the worship of the raising sun, we have the evidence of Abd-al-Sharq "servant of the Raising one." 17 The heavenly bodies, especially worshipped were Canopus (Suhail), Sirius (al-Sh'ira), Aldebaran in Taurus with the planets Mercury (Utarid), Venus (al-Zuhra) Jupiter (al-Mushtri) and Sale states that the temple at Mecca was said to have been consecrated to Saturn (Zuhal).

excerpt from Abdul Hameed Siddiqui's Book The Life of Muhammad
http://www.soundvision.com/info/seerah/hameed5.asp

In this image I used 500 AD as the date, because that's probably about when it was built but Sirius was at almost the exact same position since about 100 AD to about 1000 AD. This also explains the peculiar rectangular shape of the Kaaba, rather than being a perfect square. The cross-corner diagonal gives the alignment with Sirius. In the image Sirius looks like it's under the horizon a little. That's because it's not what the actual horizon looks like on the ground. That's just for purposes of showing a perfect grid. There's a "rising" and "setting" button in the program that you just click and it puts the star at it's actual rising point as seen in the real world. Notice that the "altitude" readout says slightly above zero, which is ground level.

53:49 (Y. Ali) That He is the Lord of Sirius (the Mighty Star);

Now why would Allah say that about himself? He's supposed to be the Lord of everything isn't he?

[Ghaith]

No Muhammad didnt become a Prophet untill he was 40. And he had no leadership to stuck anything at the age of 35. It was stuck there after it was recovered, since In January 930 it was stolen by the Qarmatians and it was broken.

As for Sirius you might want to watch this documentary

[marduk]

No, he wasn't pretending to be a prophet yet. The pagans were arguing over who would have the honor of sticking the stone on after the rebuild and to keep the peace they agreed to let the first person who walked through the gate (or whatever) do it. Muhammad happened to be the next person and they all agreed that he was honest and trustworthy so they accepted him as the stone sticker. At least that's the version of the story I read.

About the video, there really were giant people around, about 100,000 BC. Many giant skeletons have been found around the world. There's a theory that Bigfoot is this giant species of caveman, a few of which may have survived. However, I don't believe they had civilizations or that they built the pyramids. Wouldn't matter if you were 20 feet tall, those stones weight up to 100s of tons. You still couldn't lift them. Besides, elephants were much larger and stronger than the giants. The Egyptians could have just used elephants that they brought up from Africa.

Interesting that the prophet Hud was much like Muhammad. The surah quoted in the vid has him saying "obey Allah and me".

The important thing here is that the Arabs designed the Kaaba to align to Canopus and Sirius, in the period 100-600 AD. It could not have been built before 100 AD and certainly not in the time of Abraham, about 2000 BC.

[marduk]

Come to think of it, if Muhammad put the Black Stone on the Kaaba 5 years before he became a supposed prophet then he was still an idol worshiping pagan at the time. That means that the Stone can only be pagan. Why would he put a stone associated with the Abrahamic god on the corner of the Temple of al-Uzza? It's clearly the Stone of al-Uzza.

Now, in the first image I posted you can see that Venus has conjunction with the sun at the angle of the Black Stone if you take the stone's angle as being directly between the two walls forming that corner, ie: 45 degrees between the walls. Considering that al-Uzza was associated with the planet Venus this may be the most important reason for the stone being on that corner. While the cross corner diagonal of the rectangular structure aligns to Sirius, the stone would actually be pointing straight out from the corner, which as I explained in the first post makes it align to the sun when rising in Libra. So this must be why some sources state that al-Uzza was also associated with Libra. That's where it's conjunction occurs. The Islamic symbol of the crescent moon with Venus depicts the elongation of Venus, which is its furthest distance from the sun. That shows the importance of Venus to the Arabs and probably why the moon god Allah/Hubal was said to be the father of al-Uzza and the other two female deities.

There is more information about the connection between Venus and the Black Stone in the book "Moon-o-theism". I don't have time to go through it right now but I'll post it tomorrow.

[Ghaith]

You knowledge about Islam and history is horrible i must say Marduk.

As for Muhmmad setting in the black stone you are reffering to the history of when they rebuild Mecca and when they asked Muhammad he told them to bring their elders and a cloth so each of the clan leaders held the corners of the cloth and carried the Black Stone to the right spot. This story is found in Ibn Ishaq and is not to be taken as authentic more over where you showed failur was when you said Muhammad(S) was a pagan if you just did a little reading you would have known Muhammad was a deist before comming a Prophet.

As to the Giants. The People of Aad where giants and the only giants at their time while other nations where just as tall as us. Their highest gave them great advantages in conquering land. Giants 100 000 BC i have no problme with that Muhammad said Adam was a giant.

As to using Elephants? Are you kidding me? Are you going to compare a 3m long elephant to a 10-15m long giant? More over even a Elephant couldnt lift those stones, and it still doesnt explain why the Giza fits so well with the Sirius star. The People of Ad worshipped the star of Sirius and that is the context of that aya you asked a question about.

[marduk]

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that you were taking about fairy tale giants 50 feet tall. No, there have been no skeletal remains of giants of that height found, just the real ones who were 12 feet tall maximum http://mattovermatter.com/2010/12/archa ... vada-cave/

So where is the evidence of Muhammad's 50 ft giants? If there is none, then why are you talking about it as if it's fact? That would mean that you are a stupid person who believes any wacky story Arabs tell him. The Pyramids were, of course, built by the Egyptians, as any INTELLIGENT person would know. Even the Romans were able to quarry and move obelisk stones of about 1000 tons weight. Were they all giants, Ghaith?

Now in regard to the subject of this thread, I suggest you read the book Moon-otheism by Yoel Natan. You'll learn a bunch of stuff about Islam that you don't currently know. You'll ignore it all but at least you will have seen the truth for once in your life. So read the book because your lack of knowledge about Islam is appalling
http://www.amazon.com/Moon-theism-Relig ... 1411601068

The Black Stone is all about Venus. I don't know if it was set in that corner for any particular reason. The astronomy of Venus is very complicated. It is definitely a pagan item though, no question whatsoever about that. It involves sex. The Arabs thought Venus could influence their sexual virility. If they couldn't get it up, something evil was interfering with Venus. They believed that Ibrihim had sex on the stone, which must have been a little uncomfortable.

[Ghaith]

All that looney Moon goad hoax has been debunked Marduk, as to the roman why do you really think we can compare roman garbage to Egypt?

[marduk]

A 1000 ton stone is a 1000 ton stone. If Romans could move them without help from giants why couldn't the Egyptians? Where did all the giant skeletons go? Were they all removed by Satan at the same time as he was planting all those fake dinosaur skeletons which prove Islam and Judaism frauds? Ever been to a museum, Ghaith? Amazing how Satan made those plastic bones look real, huh?

And the Moon-god thing has certainly NOT been debunked. It's one thing to SAY that something has been debunked but quite another to show the proof. Proceed. All I have to do to support the Moon-god and Venus theory is to hold up an Islamic flag or show a picture of a steeple on top of a mosque. Why don't you explain why that moon and star are on those flags and that crescent is on those mosques.

What the hell is this, Ghaith? Looks an awful lot like a crescent moon rising. What's THAT about, Ghaith? Why does Allah want you to have a picture of the moon on your flags? That's your god, Ghaith. Bow to him. And before you say that the crescent moon is about Ramadan, what's the star about?



When you pray why do you put your hands up to your ears, making it look like this crescent moon and your head like Venus? And why do you put your forehead on the ground when you pray? You don't know, do you. I'll educate you. The sun worshipers started it. That's because you can't actually look at the sun without going blind so they would worship its reflection in a muddy puddle of water by getting down and touching their forehead to the reflection in the water. That's also why you aren't allowed to pray at sunrise, noon or sunset, because you can't see the sun's reflection at those times. It's too low in the sky to make a reflection at dawn and dusk and the shadow of your own head blocks its reflection at noon. Eventually they phased out the puddle and just put their forehead on the ground instead.

[Fernando]

Details apart, there is surely doubt at all that the black stone was worshipped by the pre-Muslim Arabs? If so, then there is no doubt that it is a pagan idol and should be destroyed at once by the Muslims. Any tales about Abraham or Adam are obviously just there to cover up its pagan nature.

[Ghaith]

Why don't you explain why that moon and star are on those flags and that crescent is on those mosques.

The crescent and the star where introduced as the flag of the Ottomans and had nothing to do with Islam It was later introduced as the symbol for Islam since the Ottoman Caliphate was the entire Muslim world. It had nothing to do with Islam in the time of Muhammad (saw).

Any more questions i can answer?

[marduk]

Before adopting Islam—a process that was greatly facilitated by the Abbasid victory at the 751 Battle of Talas, which ensured Abbasid influence in Central Asia—the Turkic peoples practiced a variety of shamanism. After this battle, many of the various Turkic tribes—including the Oghuz Turks, who were the ancestors of both the Seljuks and the Ottomans—gradually converted to Islam, and brought the religion with them to Anatolia beginning in the 11th century.

Oh, so Islam adopted the symbol of shamanism. I see. That was the will of Allah, was it Ghaith? How else did it happen? Strange that the religion started by the Arabs was willing to adopt the symbol of the Ottomans. Whatsa matter, couldn't take them? I heard they were a bunch of pussies. Well, they showed the Arabs, cuz now they all wave the flag of the Ottoman pagans around.

Further information: Star and crescent use in the Ottoman Empire
The Tengrian crescent

The star and the moon are two sky elements symbolizing the Tengriist beliefs of the sky-worshiping ancient Turks. In Turkic Mythology four colors are associated with four cardinal directions such as "gök-blue" (east), "ak-white" (west), "al-red" (south) and "kara-black" (north). These colors represent the direction towards the zenith where the Tengri is residing in the sky. Red and white colors on the flag of Turkey symbolize the south-western branch of Turks called Oghuzes who are the founders of present-day Turkey as well as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Gagauzia. Black Sea and Turkish/Qırımtatar names of Mediterranean (Akdeniz) got their name from the same mythology; Karadeniz being in the north and Akdeniz being in the west respectively. Turkestan's flag is similar to Turkey's, with only difference being blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Turkey

Well, that's pretty embarrassing, Islam having a sky worshiping symbol on their flags and mosques. Certainly confirms the link between Islam and paganism though. Muslims are really a bunch of Tengriists aren't they Ghaith.

Tengriist crescent;

The same symbol was used in other national flags introduced during the 20th century, including the flags of Azerbaijan (1918), Pakistan (1947), Malaysia (1948), Mauritania (1959). During the 1950s to 1960s, the symbol was re-interpreted as symbolic of Islam or the Muslim community.[3] By the 1970s, this symbolism was embraced by movements of Arab nationalism or Islamism (even though it was not originally an Arab symbol), such as the proposed Arab Islamic Republic (1974) and the US Nation of Islam (1973).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent

Gee, kinda screwed up there, didn't they Ghaith? That's what happens when you don't research anything. You make the symbol of the Goose God the symbol of Islam. Maybe that's why Allah is punishing them.