If you believe in Adam and Eve.......

[sum]

If you believe in Adam and Eve can you still believe in evolution? I think that it is not possible. Any thoughts?

sum

[Eagle]

Adam is generally taken to be the first man, but nowhere in the Quran is it affirmed that Adam was the first man or that there was no creation before him. The Quran only speaks of Adam as being the first human created with the ability of vicegerency on Earth.
When the Quran speaks of the creation of the human race, it speaks of a gradual process originating with an extract/sulala of earthly elements 15:26,23:12,37:11,55:14 and water 21:30,24:45,25:54 fashionned and formed 40:64,64:3 before man was made complete for his role of vicegerency 20:55,22:5,7:11"And certainly We created you (addressing the whole human race), then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam". This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race went through a process of evolution from basic earthly elements, that then became capable of reproduction through procreation and that at one point, one individual (Adam) was fully, physically evolved and was made complete with a spirit from God becoming the first vicegerent 40:67-8,35:11,32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit, and made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks". In 71:17 the Quran parallels the growth of man out of the earth like a plant does. As said in 38:71-2, Allah announces to the angels that He will create a mortal, and that when this mortal becomes complete with the spirit from God, to prostrate before him. The last step of human evolution is linked to mankind having being filled with a spirit, signaling its completion as God's vicegerent 2:30.
The Quran speaks of the entire universe having originated with the creative word "be", but this does not preclude process, just as Jesus, Yahya or Adam's creations with "be" do not exclude a gradual process.

The primary opposition to the theory of evolution, from both Muslim and Christian dogmatists, is that they hold that it challenges the dignity of man. The proponents of this idea fail to recognize that both their scriptures hold that man was created from dust, and other earthly insignifant lifeless materials whose combination by the Best and Wise Creator resulted in a wonderful being endowed with consciousness, and the Quran in multiple places argues how man was created from sticky fluid, i.e. semen, 76:1"a thing not worth mentioning" 19:67,18:32-7,36:77,16:4"He created man from a small seed and lo! he is an open contender" and even after his completion he is brought forth as an infant, growing in maturity 22:5"and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything".
When Satan argued against God regarding man, he stated that he was better because man was created from mud, and he, from fire 7:12.

Man is ultimately defined by his will and desire. It is not the origin of a thing that matters per the Quran, but the final reach of a thing. As John the Baptist said, when rebuking the Rabbis and Pharisees, God can create children of Abraham out of stone.

[Jonah]

If you believe in Adam and Eve can you still believe in evolution? I think that it is not possible. Any thoughts?

sum

Dr Sum i think you have misunderstood evolution.

[sum]

Hello Jonah

Will you please explain how I misunderstand evolution?

sum

[sum]

Hello Jonah

Where are you? You have run so far that you are now out of sight.

sum

[sum]

Hello Eagle

Your quote -
Adam is generally taken to be the first man, but nowhere in the Quran is it affirmed that Adam was the first man or that there was no creation before him. The Quran only speaks of Adam as being the first human created with the ability of vicegerency on Earth.

Are you able to tell us where in the chain of human evolution did Adam appear? How long ago would this be?

sum

[sum]

Where has Eagle gone? Has he done a Ghaith and run away from a difficult question?

sum

[sum]

Where are you, Eagle?

Please answer my question and stop ignoring it.

sum

[sum]

Hello Eagle

Have you deserted Allah?

Have you gone AWOL?

sum

[Eagle]

Hello Eagle

Your quote -
Adam is generally taken to be the first man, but nowhere in the Quran is it affirmed that Adam was the first man or that there was no creation before him. The Quran only speaks of Adam as being the first human created with the ability of vicegerency on Earth.

Are you able to tell us where in the chain of human evolution did Adam appear? How long ago would this be?

sum

The answer is in the first post. Here is the part:

This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race went through a process of evolution from basic earthly elements, that then became capable of reproduction through procreation and that at one point, one individual (Adam) was fully, physically evolved and was made complete with a spirit from God becoming the first vicegerent

What is bolded above would correspond to the rise of the homo sapiens

[sum]

Hello Eagle

Please tell me if your reply is solely your own view or whether it is the view of mainstream Islam.

Also, please tell me how many years ago in the gradual emergence of homo sapiens did Adam appear.

sum

[iffo]

Prophet Eagle is trying to satisfy both evolution and Quran stupid Adam and Eve story.

SO Eagle when did God dropped Adam to earth from Heaven?

[Nazzim ibn Abu Talib]

And I think by the time homo sapiens evolved they were already sexually reproducing species. So both sexes existed. So how about creating the male first and the female from his ribs?

And Adam and Eve were pretty smart and thinking people. But we know the first homo sapiens had a much lesser cranial capacity, small cerebral hemispheres and little reasoning ability. But Adam seemed much more smarter than the first homo sapiens on earth. Also speciation as in the Darwinism isn't a sudden process but a gradual accumulation of small changes. So how come God just "suddenly" created Adam.

Islamic mythology depicts Adam to be 60 cubits in size and says he live thousands of years. Archaelogical evidence refutes such characteristics of homo sapiens.

[Ozes]

Eagle, since evolution and physics are widely accepted as inventions of the unbeliever, why do you try to explain these lies with quranic texts?
You attempt to confirm lies with the holy truth?

One man tells a a clear lie, and you open a holy book and tells him he is right according to Allah?

[Nazzim ibn Abu Talib]

Eagle, since evolution and physics are widely accepted as inventions of the unbeliever, why do you try to explain these lies with quranic texts?
You attempt to confirm lies with the holy truth?

One man tells a a clear lie, and you open a holy book and tells him he is right according to Allah?

The best answer to this, I got on a show on a Pakistani channel. The Mullah on the show mulled over the scientific miracles in Qur'an for over 5 hours in 5 weeks and in the last episode said "Despite all this, don't seek science in Qur'an, it is not a science textbook. IT is a book of hidayaat (guidance)."

That's right, the Qur'an's scientific miracles are just an attraction like the spec sheet or video of a cheap Chinese mobile. The makers (here the Mullahs) know the reality is drastically different. Hardly any muslim scholar worth his piss will ever try arguing in favor of Darwinian theory. But then of course, he'll reject Qur'an only enlightened muslims as heretics anyway.

[manfred]

If you believe in Adam and Eve can you still believe in evolution? I think that it is not possible. Any thoughts?

sum

It depends what you mean by "believe". If you assume that Adam and Eve were real people, then I would agree with you.

What if the story of Adam (which simply means "man" in Hebrew and is not a name) and Eve is an allegory? We all know that snakes don't talk, so that alone should be a a big hint as to what kind of text it is.

Then there is apple. It is a symbol for "understanding" in the story. "Man" was forbidden to understand the difference between good and evil. The apple was not to be eaten. That kept man in a state of innocence; you can only be guilty of something if you are capable of understanding right and wrong. That is the starting point of the story. Then of course, the apple is eaten. The fact that Eve is persuaded into that is only an aside. Both Adam and Eve made their choice.

Eating the apple was more that simply an act of disobedience. It changed man. The fact that he made cloths for himself is a symbol for the change. The self-awareness of man changed through the ability to understand right and wrong.

Now, as man grabbed for himself the understanding of good and evil, he would be capable to understand sin. We now all have a sort of built in natural "radar" for right and wrong. We can dull our senses with excuses, but that does not mean we cannot understand the difference. This is what in Christianity is meant by "original sin". "Eating the apple" was our choice, and because of that we have a sense of ethics, and because of that we are responsible for our own actions. This mean we can be held accountable for what we do. What is more, even the weasel words of perverted persuader, one as represented in the story as the snake, does not absolve us from being responsible for ourselves.

This is how the allegory of Adam and Eve is commonly understood. There is a message in that story for anyone, an atheist included.

[iffo]

If Adam and eve were not real people and apple was also not actual apple. Then where do we stop, how do we know what is symbolic and what is real? Why would all knowing intelligent god will do such a thing to confuse people . Why not say things clearly so that the message is clear and everybody understands it.

Do these books (Quran , bible) say even once don't take the words literally, these stories are all symbolic ? God should have said so .

[manfred]

well, iffo, with biblical texts, you need to be aware that there have been written by many people over a long period of time. Also what people forget they come in different types, normally called genres. There are myths and stories, poetry, historical accounts, allegories, songs, proverbs.... The Old testament is more of a library than a book.

Obviously there was no real Adam and Eve, apple and snake. It's a STORY. You don't have any trouble working out that there was no real Scrooge and Christmas ghosts either, or that there was no real Robinson Crusoe or Lord Voldemort, so why is that so difficult to see in this case? It does not have to say on the front page of Harry Potter that it is a story. So why people are acting dumb with bible texts I never understand. There is a TALKING SNAKE! Is that not hint enough?

Because the characters and events in the story are fiction, it does not make the story valueless though. It has a message. I tried to put it plainly. Inside the message there are many subtle messages, too, and I left a lot of things out. It is in that sense that Adam and Eve are "true". If you start by assuming there was a real "Adam" guy (As I said Adam is NOT a name, it simply means "man"), you get the whole thing wrong in the first place.

Mohammed and Islam did that by making a fictional character, "Adam" a "prophet". Noah, Jonah and Job are other fictional characters from the Old Testament. They also ended up becoming Islamic prophets, which to me is quite funny.

[iffo]

But manfred my question is where it says these are not real characters/stories but fictional?

Or are we making them fictional just to cover up the errors in these stories and justify their stupidity to some how hang on to our faith.

For years people believe in these stories literally and still do, but now as we are much smarter and less ignorant we are trying to find some ways to cover up the errors in them, because these stories contradict with science. Isn't this the case?

God got to be extremly non-serious about conveying his message if he is confusing people like this.

It reminds me about some muslims who say "Beating of wife" in quran is not literally beating but symbolic.

[manfred]

It does not say that. It does not say that in a James Bond novel, either.

Yes there are those that take the story as a historical account. To me that is very silly. I think sum wanted mostly a response from those.

Also, iffo, God did not write the bible. People did. Over a period of about 1200 years.

It is a collection of texts of all kinds, as I said. It has stories, poems, songs, sayings, myths, historical accounts, and suggestions on how to live a good life and behave well. It also has a lot about God. It shows what people BELIEVED about God AT THE TIME it was written. You can see a development of these beliefs from simple to complex, from naive to mature.

That is in a nutshell what the bible is. It is nothing at all like the Qur'an. The very small number of Christians who treat the bible the same way as Muslims treat the Quran are called "fundamentalists". As you can probably gather I am not one of those.

In most cases it is really very obvious what type of text it is, and it does not need a label. You can also simply look at some bible scholars and see what they say, if you are not sure.

At the end of the day, you have to make up your own mind of course. To me, the Adam and Eve story is a good one, it has a lot of ideas in it to think about. It makes not a blind bit of difference if the story is about real people. The meaning stays the the same. However, given the overwhelming evidence that the story cannot be talking about real people, both from within the story itself and from our other knowledge, I find those who argue that Adam was a real person mildly eccentric...