Changing of the Qiblah

[marduk]

The author of this page has a good point. Muhammad changed the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to the Kaaba at a time when THE IDOLS WERE STILL IN THERE. As the quote below states, the reason was very obvious. He had failed to impress the Jews by praying toward Jerusalem and fasting on the Day of Atonement (Ashura) so he turned to trying to impress the pagan Arabs instead, since those were the only people he had any real chance of convincing to join his made up religion. But of course I'm sure Muslims have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Allah would tell Muslims to pray toward the idol shop with idols still in it.

This also explains why Muhammad added all that other pagan Arab stuff to Islam. Knowing that he had no chance of winning over the Jews and Christians to his much inferior religion, he went all out with winning over the pagans instead. That worked. Only problem is that by doing that he doomed Islam to being called a pagan religion and a false Abrahamic religion, since obviously the God of the Jews would not incorporate pagan practices into his religion after all that "terrible doom and hellfire awaiting them" comments. Muhammad's ploys were so transparent only idiots would think Islam is a real monotheistic anti-pagan religion. God would not incorporate even ONE pagan practice, much less all of them.

All sources, Quran, Sira and Tafsir, speak of only one change of qiblah, from the former Qiblah (Jerusalem) to the new Qiblah (Mecca). Apparently, Muhammad and his followers prayed towards Jerusalem (which is the same as the direction of Syria) from the very beginning of Muhammad’s prophetic career, i.e. for over thirteen years (all the time in Mecca, plus 18 months in Medina).

What is amazing about this is that Muhammad replaced these very monotheistic practices for those originating from the paganism of the Meccan Arabs!

Note that the change of the Muslim direction of prayer — away from Jerusalem and towards the Kabah in Mecca — happened at a time when it was full of pagan idols and the worship of false gods was the daily practice at this shrine, and would continue to be this way for a good number of years until Muhammad’s conquest of Mecca.

Muhammad sought to win the Jews to Islam, and adopting their direction of prayer was one of the tools employed in this endeavor. After it became clear that the Jews would never follow him, he turned against them, and abandoned the fasting at Ashura and the Qiblah that he had chosen to impress them and win them over. After Muhammad had lost hope that the Jewish and Christian communities would join his movement, the only groups he could still hope to unite in his religion were the various pagan tribes of Arabia.

Muhammad had followed various religious observances of the Jews to gain their favor. Apparently for similar opportunistic reasons he now changed the Muslim Qiblah towards the Kabah, the central shrine of the Arab pagan religion, despite the fact that it was full of idols. It is hardly unfounded speculation when one gets the suspicion that he gave their holy place an important position in his religion in order to make it more attractive for the Arabs to join Islam.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/qiblah.htm

[ringmaster]

............................................... Muhammad's ploys were so transparent only idiots would think Islam is a real monotheistic anti-pagan religion. ..................

And yet if you ask muslims to tell us one good thing about their stupid religion, they would tell you that it's good because they worship one god.

Hilarious. Bloody morons.

[marduk]

............................................... Muhammad's ploys were so transparent only idiots would think Islam is a real monotheistic anti-pagan religion. ..................

And yet if you ask muslims to tell us one good thing about their stupid religion, they would tell you that it's good because they worship one god.

Hilarious. Bloody morons.

Worshiping one god? Oh that's unique. How is it a good thing though? Why is one god better than many gods? Is one doallar better than 100? Since you know they have no other answer for your question why not ask them this instead; Why was it that Muhammad made Muslims pray toward the Kaaba when it was full of idols and a pagan shrine? Abraham was supposedly at both Mecca and Jerusalem, but Jerusalem wasn't full of idols in Muhammad's lifetime like the Kaaba was. If you bow toward an idol (or 300), no matter how far away you may be, your soul is forfeit to Shaitan.

Making the Satanic verses, which are confirmed by numerous Muslim sources as real ayats and not some scheme by unbelievers to discredit Muhammad, and changing from bowing to Jerusalem to bowing to the idol shop are the only reasons Muhammad was actually able to persuade the majority of Arabs to join his gang of robbers. He utterly failed to convince anyone other than backward Arab pagans to accept the notion that God had chosen an idiot as his last prophet. He HAD to paganize the hanif religion, or he would simply have faded away into obscurity. Incorporating all of the Arab pagan practices was the only reason Islam grew beyond 15 people.

[skynightblaze]

In addition to this thread here are some absurdities regarding the change of qiblah.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13207&p=185567#p185567

[marduk]

Thanks, skynightblaze. Let's have a look at those ayats.

2:142 (Asad) THE WEAK-MINDED among people will say, "What has turned them away from the direction of prayer which they have hitherto observed?" [116] Say: "God's is the east and the west; He guides whom He wills onto a straight way." [117]

Allah must be a politician, because he answered some other question than the one asked. What does the East and West being God's, or the fact that he guides whom he wills onto a straight way have to do with why they changed from facing a holy site in Jerusalem to the Mecca idol shop? Nothing, that's what. And what does he mean by "the weak-minded among you"? That would be the entire Muslim population.

2:143 (Asad) And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way, [118] so that [with your lives] you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind, and that the Apostle might bear witness to it before you. [119] And it is only to the end that We might make a clear distinction between those who follow the Apostle and those who turn about on their heels that We have appointed [for this community] the direction of prayer which thou [O Prophet] hast formerly observed: for this was indeed a hard test for all but those whom God has guided aright. [120] But God will surely not lose sight of your faith-for, behold, God is most compassionate towards man, a dispenser of grace.

How is seeing whether Muslims will face the idol shop instead of Jerusalem a "hard test"? Is it because the Muslims had been repeatedly told by Muhammad to avoid all things related to idols and then suddenly told them to pray facing the idols? Yeah, I can see why they would find that difficult to accept, considering it directly contradicts the entire rest of the Quran. I have another good test that Allah can give Muslims. See if they'll actually bow right in front of the idols inside the Kaaba instead of just from a distance. If they do it, they are true Muslims, and also doomed to eternal hellfire. Nice test huh? If you pass the test you go to hell for bowing to an idol. If you fail the test, you're an infidel and will therefore also go to hell for "denying the truth" that idols should be bowed to. In other words, Allah's little qiblah test dooms all Muslims to hell no matter what the outcome.

2:144 (Asad) We have seen thee [O Prophet] often turn thy face towards heaven [for guidance]: and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it [in prayer]. And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this [commandment] comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.

Oh really? So the Jews and Christians "know well" that the commandment to stop bowing toward Jerusalem and bow to the Mecca Idols in the Kaaba instead comes from their sustainer, huh? Why would they know that? Is it obvious that the god of Israel would suddenly make them bow to an idol shrine instead of the Temple Mount? What is more obvious is that Muhammad is insane.

2:145 (Asad) And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence [121] before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers.

Of course they wouldn't follow Muhammad's new direction of prayer. Why the hell should they? Who in their right mind would start praying toward a crappy little Arab idol shrine instead of Jerusalem, the holiest city on the planet? Only very, very stupid people and Arab pagans. Why would the Jews do something crazy like that when God never ever told them to do that before? Muhammad concedes that the Torah is accurate, so I now invite all Muslims to show us the Torah verses which tell Jews to face a pagan shrine in Arabia. And why is Allah griping about the Jews not even agreeing to a direction of prayer between themselves? I don't recall any mention in the history of Judaism about a disagreement among them as to what direction to face when praying. Did God tell them to pray in a certain direction? Not that I know of. So what grounds does he have for griping about whether or not they are praying in the proper direction?

Also, how is it a test if Allah already knows that every single Jew and Christian would refuse to do it? The test was obviously set up by Satan to see how many Muslims would do something which is obviously against all Abrahamic tenets, bowing and praying to 300 idols. They passed the test. They are truly his minions and the Jews and Christians aren't. Now we can see why Satan chose to go to Arabia to recruit minions. They were so easy to turn back to idol worshipers that he didn't even have to work at it. After they did that, he knew that they would do literally anything he told them to, through his chief minion recruiter Muhammad. If they would worship the idols just because he said so, they would probably even commit mass murder atrocities on his command too. Naw, nobody could be that stupid, right?

How come Allah's "tests" always involve doing something evil? Commanding Muslims to attack innocent villages, kill the men, take the women and children and sell them as slaves and/or rape them is one of his favorite tests. Just like the test to see if they would pray to 300 idols. The Arabs passed all of Satan's tests with flying colors. They are truly Satan's chosen people, as they continue to prove every single day.

[skynightblaze]

Allah must be a politician, because he answered some other question than the one asked. What does the East and West being God's, or the fact that he guides whom he wills onto a straight way have to do with why they changed from facing a holy site in Jerusalem to the Mecca idol shop? Nothing, that's what. And what does he mean by "the weak-minded among you"? That would be the entire Muslim population.

You have made very interesting points and certainly shown what an idiot Allah aka Muhammad was however I am confused about the para in the quote. I understood 2:142 as Muhammad telling the jews and christians literally as " I changed the direction from Jerusalem to Mecca since there is no specific direction to pray to Allah i.e. direction in which you pray does not matter" . So I thought that the author of quran answered the question correctly atleast in 2:142 but he fuckd up everything in 2:145 because he himself is bothered about which direction jews and christians face. I could be wrong but that is how I understood it . You are free to correct me If I am wrong and I would appreciate it .

Anyway I do not understand what connection does the statement " he guides whom he wills" have connection here. That is certainly a good point and I will also add that in the thread I started.

[marduk]

It looks pretty straightforward to me. Here's the Yusuf Ali version but they're all practically identical.

2:142 (Y. Ali) The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both east and West: He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

Gabriel supposedly says that fools will ask why the Qibla was changed from Jerusalem to the idol shrine, but he doesn't explain how that is a foolish question. It's actually a perfectly valid question. He then explains the bizarre change of prayer direction by making vague statements which amount to "Allah did it just because he felt like it." In other words he has no explanation whatsoever. That's Allah's explanation for what is clearly a move completely inconsistent with the Abrahamic religion. So we're left wondering what's really going on here. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Satan is behind it.

It did not mean, as you thought, that the Jews had no direction of prayer because it is common knowledge that they all prayed toward Jerusalem after the diaspora, which started in the 6th century BC.

In Judaism, mizrah (Hebrew: מזרח "east") is the direction that most Jews in the diaspora face during prayer, as Jewish law prescribes that Jews face the site of the Temple in Jerusalem during prayer, and most Jews in the diaspora live west of Jerusalem, so they face eastward during prayer.

The Talmud lays down the rule that if one prays in the Diaspora, he shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. The same rule is found in the Mishnah; however, it is prescribed for individual prayers only rather than for congregational prayers at a synagogue. Thus, if a man is east of the Temple, he should turn westward; if in the west, eastward; in the south, northward; and if in the north, southward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah

So there was no disagreement among the Jews about the direction of prayer. The Christians always prayed facing East though, wherever they were.

The Apostles of Christ were all Jews. The early disciples of Christ in Palestine were mostly Jews. They prayed like other Jews. Soon however, Christians developed their own prayers addressed to Christ as the saviour.

Because of a new spiritual awareness in the early Christian community, Christians developed a detachment to physical places like Jerusalem. Their absorbing concern was with the “Heavenly Jerusalem” and the way to reach that abiding spiritual city. All places on earth were the same for them. No place was particularly sacred. So the early Christian community gradually moved away from the Jewish orientation to the city of Jerusalem in Palestine. At the same time a new sense of direction emerged in Christian worship, namely the direction of the rising sun.

This eastward direction developed in Christianity has a strong biblical basis:

1. In the biblical story of creation we read: ” And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed ( Gen. 2:8). Eventually Adam and Eve, after their act of disobedience were sent out from the Garden of Eden in the East. According to Christian interpretation, since the time of this expulsion of the first parents by the eastern gate of paradise (=garden), all children of Adam and Eve look back to their lost home, the paradise in the East, with a deep sense of spiritual home sickness. So salvation is understood partly as a return to the original home.

http://www.orthodoxherald.com/2009/07/0 ... or-prayer/

The Garden of Eden was in the region of the northern end of the Persian Gulf, which interestingly is pretty much due East of Israel.

So both the Jewish and Christian directions of prayer make sense in an Abrahamic religion. The odd man out is Islam. They don't pray toward either the Temple Mount or the Garden of Eden but instead to an Arabian idol shrine which has absolutely no relationship to the Abrahamic religions, unless God would have allowed Abraham and Ishmael to build a "temple" (shed) in a flood zone. Since it would have been easy for God to tell Abe to build it on one of the nearby mountains instead, we must conclude that God had no involvement in the location or design of the Kaaba. It doesn't even face East as all Jewish temples must. Instead, it faces the rising point of Canopus, which was worshiped by the pagans in Mecca and Yemen. So it was originally designed to be, in reality, a shrine to the star Canopus. So the question that the "foolish" people should ask is why did Allah want Muslims to pray facing the Temple of Canopus instead of the Temple of Solomon.

[Eagle]

The author of this page has a good point. Muhammad changed the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to the Kaaba at a time when THE IDOLS WERE STILL IN THERE. As the quote below states, the reason was very obvious. He had failed to impress the Jews by praying toward Jerusalem and fasting on the Day of Atonement (Ashura) so he turned to trying to impress the pagan Arabs instead, since those were the only people he had any real chance of convincing to join his made up religion. But of course I'm sure Muslims have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Allah would tell Muslims to pray toward the idol shop with idols still in it.

Sure they do, and here it is.

The first change of Qibla occured in Mecca itself, where the believers were commanded to face Jerusalem in prayer. This means the prophet was facing Jerusalem at a time when the Jewish involvement in his life was totally insignificant. The Quran then clarifies how this change was extremely difficult, for the Kaaba was the very symbol of the Abrahamic religion that Muhammad was sent to revive and all the descendants of Ibrahim and Ismail held it in great veneration, even more so the believers. This exposed the prophet to more opposition and those who rejected him would argue that he claims to revive the way of Ibrahim through his spiritual claim over the Kaaba, but is now telling his followers to face Jerusalem and 2:143 refers to that incident "And we did not make the direction of facing/Qibla that you were on, except to know who follows the footsteps of the messenger from who turns upside down on the back of his feet. And it was burdensome except on those that God gifted guidance". The verse speaks of how this first Qibla change, away from the Kaaba, to Jerusalem was very burdensome to many early followers who started harboring doubts. But as reported in historical reports and traditions, the prophet of God proceeded with the order while subtely keeping sight of the Kaaba, to the pagans' dislike and to the believers' relief, by facing the southern wall of the Kaaba towards the north, so as to face both the Kaaba and Jerusalem during prayer.
This situation raised other concerns among the believers regarding their prayers that were performed prior to the change of Qibla, if they were still valid in God's eyes but the Quran comforted them that "Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people".

After his migration to Medina, the prophet had no choice but to pray exclusively towards Jerusalem as previously ordained in Mecca. The area of the Farthest Mosque 17:1"whose precincts We did bless" where the Temple of Solomon once stood and his people prostrated to God. It was a blessed and sacred area, this is why the Muslims were told to prostrate in that direction, regardless of whether a temple stood there or not. In Medina, when the prophet and the Muslims prayed northward they could not afford the opportunity of praying with the Kaaba in front of them anymore, like they did in Mecca. In addition their backs were now turned to the Kaaba when facing Jerusalem. This matter greatly disturbed them, and in addition they had to bare the taunting of the people of the book who saw in this a proof of themselves being on the right path and that the Muslims were trying to compete with them in this regard but they are told 2:145"even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qibla, nor can you be a follower of their qibla, neither are they the followers of each other's qibla, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust". The prophet is told that no sign will make the rejectors among the people of the book follow his qibla since their confusion and prejudice is so deep that, although they read the same scriptures, they follow divergent qibla (ways) and accuse eachother of being misguided 2:113.

This early Medinian period was a means of seperating the obedient from the disobedient just as all the previous hardships and sacrifices seperated the believers from others, the submissive from the arrogant. The Muslims were not only uprooted from their homes but had now lost the comforting sight of what they regarded as their spiritual center 2:144"Indeed We see the turning of your face in heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qibla which you shall like". The experience was so difficult that the prophet's face was in heaven, conveying the picture that Muhammad was anxiously awaiting the day the qibla would be restored to its original foundation to the extent that it was as if he was in heaven, awaiting for the command.

In Medina and aproximately a year after the Hijra, the first Temple of monotheism, the Kaaba, was thus definitively established as the Muslims' qibla 2:144"turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do". This SECOND change of qibla, from Jerusalem towards the Kaaba in Mecca was an event of greatest religious significance, and one of the most important commandments given to the Muslims, further cementing their unity and fulfilling the promise made to Ibrahim and Ismail as they were building the Temple long ago. The verses 2:142-152 dealt with all the controversies surrounding the 2 qibla changes, comforting the believers and preparing their minds for the ultimate change of qibla. This was done first by revealing the story of Ibrahim, the various honors bestowed on him by Allah, as well as the honor accorded to his son, Ismail; their prayers for the Kaaba and Mecca, as well as for a prophet and a nation submitted in Islam; their construction of the House and the order then received to cleanse it for the sole worship of Allah, by all the nations, until the Day of Resurrection 5:97,22:25-7. If Ibrahim's seed was to be blessed in Ismail’s progeny, as even stated in the Torah, it was necessary that the new Spiritual Centre should be the house built and purified by Ibrahim and Ismail, and make their nation the inheritors of all those Divine blessings which had been promised to the seed of Abraham.

This ultimate establishement of the Kaaba as the Muslims' Qibla is firstly alluded to in 2:142 (future tense) with an anticipation of the fools' reaction to the command; why would the Muslims turn away from Jerusalem if it was a correct qibla and why had they not alway faced the Kaaba if it was the original and true qibla? It then goes back to the past 2:143 with a reminder of how changing the old qibla was a big issue except to the rightly guided and the passage ends with 2:144 establishing the Kaaba as the definite qibla. It is obvious 2:142-144 were revealed at once. It ends the previous test of knowing 2:143"who follows the footsteps of the messenger from who turns upside down on the back of his feet" by establishing the Kaaba as the final qibla 2:144.

So as an anticipation to the people's reaction in Medina regarding this last change of qibla the Quran answers 2:142"The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path". As similarly stated in 2:115,26:28,73:9 and more particularly in 2:177, Allah is the Omnipresent grasping the universe as a whole, present in all directions and therefore Jerusalem, the Kaaba and all other places belong to Allah, Who intrinsically has no house and no place. Without His commission, no place has spiritual excellence or preference in its own essence. The direction in itself is therefore not something to be disputed and argued about 2:148"And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together". Besides it being a concrete direction of prayer, the "qibla" also carries an abstract meaning as in the direction to find God and this is what 2:145,148 explain. The essence of this injunction is therefore to obey a divine command and hasten to do good works and try to excel others in virtuous deeds; that is the true success in God's eyes.

The verse 2:177 reiterating the issue of direction in prayer comes between verses discussing the laws of religion, it is a warning given to the Muslims that they should not fall into the error into which the previous people fell, who sacrificed the spirit of religion for the outward ceremonial. Internal purity goes in parallel with the external which is why the Quran refers to the Sharia/Law as the Book and the Wisdom 2:151 refering to the body and soul of the shariah respectively, to its commandments and their philosophy. The previous nations, namely the Jews, had neglected this aspect as Jesus amply demonstrates in the NT. The essence of religion, we are here told 2:177, is faith in God and benevolence towards men which Allah compares to an uphill climb 90:11-20.

Besides being an indication that the Israelites had been definately deposed from their spiritual leadership over mankind due to their constant failings as prophecised by Jesus the last of the Israelite prophets in a long line of prophets persecuted and rejected by them Matt21, this last change of qibla was also an annoucement of the glad tidings of the near conquest of Mecca, a forecast of its cleaning and purification from the idols placed in it over time, and the return of Islam as a fulfillement of Ibrahim's prayers and God's subsequent promise of placing the righteous from among his descendants as the leaders of mankind 2:124-130. The appointement of the Kaaba as the Muslims' qiblah was in honor of Ibrahim and Ismail, a confirmation to the claim of the Quran that the Muslims are the true followers of the way of Ibrahim 2:135. It was a favor in a series of favors bestowed upon the believers by Allah 2:150, such as the sending of a messenger from among themselves who brought them wisdom and purification from polytheism, evil and immoral actions 2:151"We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know". At all times, the believers are told to keep their remembrence of these favors 2:152"Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me". However immidiately after annoucing this favor, God warns them that leadership is not a bed of roses but a bed of thorns. They will be confronted with all kind of difficulties, and trials and that if they went through their ordeals with fortitude and proceeded on in the way of Allah, they would be blessed with countless blessings and rewards by Him 2:153-7 just as their failure would cause their uprooting.

[iffo]

The author of this page has a good point. Muhammad changed the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to the Kaaba at a time when THE IDOLS WERE STILL IN THERE. As the quote below states, the reason was very obvious. He had failed to impress the Jews by praying toward Jerusalem and fasting on the Day of Atonement (Ashura) so he turned to trying to impress the pagan Arabs instead, since those were the only people he had any real chance of convincing to join his made up religion. But of course I'm sure Muslims have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Allah would tell Muslims to pray toward the idol shop with idols still in it.

Sure they do, and here it is.

The first change of Qibla occured in Mecca itself, where the believers were commanded to face Jerusalem in prayer. This means the prophet was facing Jerusalem at a time when the Jewish involvement in his life was totally insignificant. The Quran then clarifies how this change was extremely difficult, for the Kaaba was the very symbol of the Abrahamic religion that Muhammad was sent to revive and all the descendants of Ibrahim and Ismail held it in great veneration, even more so the believers. This exposed the prophet to more opposition and those who rejected him would argue that he claims to revive the way of Ibrahim through his spiritual claim over the Kaaba, but is now telling his followers to face Jerusalem and 2:143 refers to that incident "And we did not make the direction of facing/Qibla that you were on, except to know who follows the footsteps of the messenger from who turns upside down on the back of his feet. And it was burdensome except on those that God gifted guidance". The verse speaks of how this first Qibla change, away from the Kaaba, to Jerusalem was very burdensome to many early followers who started harboring doubts. But as reported in historical reports and traditions, the prophet of God proceeded with the order while subtely keeping sight of the Kaaba, to the pagans' dislike and to the believers' relief, by facing the southern wall of the Kaaba towards the north, so as to face both the Kaaba and Jerusalem during prayer.
This situation raised other concerns among the believers regarding their prayers that were performed prior to the change of Qibla, if they were still valid in God's eyes but the Quran comforted them that "Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people".

After his migration to Medina, the prophet had no choice but to pray exclusively towards Jerusalem as previously ordained in Mecca. The area of the Farthest Mosque 17:1"whose precincts We did bless" where the Temple of Solomon once stood and his people prostrated to God. It was a blessed and sacred area, this is why the Muslims were told to prostrate in that direction, regardless of whether a temple stood there or not. In Medina, when the prophet and the Muslims prayed northward they could not afford the opportunity of praying with the Kaaba in front of them anymore, like they did in Mecca. In addition their backs were now turned to the Kaaba when facing Jerusalem. This matter greatly disturbed them, and in addition they had to bare the taunting of the people of the book who saw in this a proof of themselves being on the right path and that the Muslims were trying to compete with them in this regard but they are told 2:145"even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qibla, nor can you be a follower of their qibla, neither are they the followers of each other's qibla, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust". The prophet is told that no sign will make the rejectors among the people of the book follow his qibla since their confusion and prejudice is so deep that, although they read the same scriptures, they follow divergent qibla (ways) and accuse eachother of being misguided 2:113.

This early Medinian period was a means of seperating the obedient from the disobedient just as all the previous hardships and sacrifices seperated the believers from others, the submissive from the arrogant. The Muslims were not only uprooted from their homes but had now lost the comforting sight of what they regarded as their spiritual center 2:144"Indeed We see the turning of your face in heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qibla which you shall like". The experience was so difficult that the prophet's face was in heaven, conveying the picture that Muhammad was anxiously awaiting the day the qibla would be restored to its original foundation to the extent that it was as if he was in heaven, awaiting for the command.

In Medina and aproximately a year after the Hijra, the first Temple of monotheism, the Kaaba, was thus definitively established as the Muslims' qibla 2:144"turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do". This SECOND change of qibla, from Jerusalem towards the Kaaba in Mecca was an event of greatest religious significance, and one of the most important commandments given to the Muslims, further cementing their unity and fulfilling the promise made to Ibrahim and Ismail as they were building the Temple long ago. The verses 2:142-152 dealt with all the controversies surrounding the 2 qibla changes, comforting the believers and preparing their minds for the ultimate change of qibla. This was done first by revealing the story of Ibrahim, the various honors bestowed on him by Allah, as well as the honor accorded to his son, Ismail; their prayers for the Kaaba and Mecca, as well as for a prophet and a nation submitted in Islam; their construction of the House and the order then received to cleanse it for the sole worship of Allah, by all the nations, until the Day of Resurrection 5:97,22:25-7. If Ibrahim's seed was to be blessed in Ismail’s progeny, as even stated in the Torah, it was necessary that the new Spiritual Centre should be the house built and purified by Ibrahim and Ismail, and make their nation the inheritors of all those Divine blessings which had been promised to the seed of Abraham.

This ultimate establishement of the Kaaba as the Muslims' Qibla is firstly alluded to in 2:142 (future tense) with an anticipation of the fools' reaction to the command; why would the Muslims turn away from Jerusalem if it was a correct qibla and why had they not alway faced the Kaaba if it was the original and true qibla? It then goes back to the past 2:143 with a reminder of how changing the old qibla was a big issue except to the rightly guided and the passage ends with 2:144 establishing the Kaaba as the definite qibla. It is obvious 2:142-144 were revealed at once. It ends the previous test of knowing 2:143"who follows the footsteps of the messenger from who turns upside down on the back of his feet" by establishing the Kaaba as the final qibla 2:144.

So as an anticipation to the people's reaction in Medina regarding this last change of qibla the Quran answers 2:142"The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path". As similarly stated in 2:115,26:28,73:9 and more particularly in 2:177, Allah is the Omnipresent grasping the universe as a whole, present in all directions and therefore Jerusalem, the Kaaba and all other places belong to Allah, Who intrinsically has no house and no place. Without His commission, no place has spiritual excellence or preference in its own essence. The direction in itself is therefore not something to be disputed and argued about 2:148"And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together". Besides it being a concrete direction of prayer, the "qibla" also carries an abstract meaning as in the direction to find God and this is what 2:145,148 explain. The essence of this injunction is therefore to obey a divine command and hasten to do good works and try to excel others in virtuous deeds; that is the true success in God's eyes.

The verse 2:177 reiterating the issue of direction in prayer comes between verses discussing the laws of religion, it is a warning given to the Muslims that they should not fall into the error into which the previous people fell, who sacrificed the spirit of religion for the outward ceremonial. Internal purity goes in parallel with the external which is why the Quran refers to the Sharia/Law as the Book and the Wisdom 2:151 refering to the body and soul of the shariah respectively, to its commandments and their philosophy. The previous nations, namely the Jews, had neglected this aspect as Jesus amply demonstrates in the NT. The essence of religion, we are here told 2:177, is faith in God and benevolence towards men which Allah compares to an uphill climb 90:11-20.

Besides being an indication that the Israelites had been definately deposed from their spiritual leadership over mankind due to their constant failings as prophecised by Jesus the last of the Israelite prophets in a long line of prophets persecuted and rejected by them Matt21, this last change of qibla was also an annoucement of the glad tidings of the near conquest of Mecca, a forecast of its cleaning and purification from the idols placed in it over time, and the return of Islam as a fulfillement of Ibrahim's prayers and God's subsequent promise of placing the righteous from among his descendants as the leaders of mankind 2:124-130. The appointement of the Kaaba as the Muslims' qiblah was in honor of Ibrahim and Ismail, a confirmation to the claim of the Quran that the Muslims are the true followers of the way of Ibrahim 2:135. It was a favor in a series of favors bestowed upon the believers by Allah 2:150, such as the sending of a messenger from among themselves who brought them wisdom and purification from polytheism, evil and immoral actions 2:151"We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know". At all times, the believers are told to keep their remembrence of these favors 2:152"Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me". However immidiately after annoucing this favor, God warns them that leadership is not a bed of roses but a bed of thorns. They will be confronted with all kind of difficulties, and trials and that if they went through their ordeals with fortitude and proceeded on in the way of Allah, they would be blessed with countless blessings and rewards by Him 2:153-7 just as their failure would cause their uprooting.

Total nonsense. Why change it to Jerusalem then back to Kaba. Why not just leave it at Kaba. Again it was Muhammad doing it not any future knowing god.

[marduk]

eagle;
In Medina and approximately a year after the Hijra, the first Temple of monotheism, the Kaaba, was thus definitively established as the Muslims' qibla

What makes you think the Kaaba was ever a "Temple of monotheism'", the fact that it was designed to face the rising of Canopus, the "Star of Osiris"? God's rules for Temple alignment to the East, ie; the rising sun (God), are very clearly stated in Exodus. So let's drop the charade that the Kaaba was ever anything other than a pagan shrine, shall we? Or do you, Mr. eagle, have a valid explanation for Abraham orienting the "first Temple of Monotheism" to Canopus? As the image below shows, the Kaaba was CLEARLY designed right from the start as a pagan shrine. Explain THIS away, eagle.



http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1995JHA....26..253K

What the hell, eagle?

The history of pre-Islamic Arabia brings into light the fact that the Arabs, besides the worship of idols, worshipped the heavenly bodies, trees and dead heroes of their tribes. "The Sun (Shams) construed as feminine, was honoured by the several Arabian tribes with a sanctuary and an idol. The name 'Abd Shams is found in many parts of the country. In the North we meet with the name Amr-I-Shams, "man of the Sun". For the worship of the raising sun, we have the evidence of Abd-al-Sharq "servant of the Raising one." 17 The heavenly bodies, especially worshipped were Canopus (Suhail), Sirius (al-Sh'ira), Aldebaran in Taurus with the planets Mercury (Utarid), Venus (al-Zuhra) Jupiter (al-Mushtri) and Sale states that the temple at Mecca was said to have been consecrated to Saturn (Zuhal).

http://www.soundvision.com/info/seerah/hameed5.asp

So let's call the Kaaba what it REALLY is, the Temple of Saturn, to which it was consecrated, or in Arabic, the Temple of Zuhal, which is what I will call it from now on because that's what it is. And you, eagle, pray daily facing the Temple of Zuhal, don't you. That makes you a pagan, eagle. Your god is Saturn, not Allah, unless Allah means Zuhal.

Also nice of you to concede that the Temple of Solomon once existed on the Temple Mount. Maybe you should tell the Palestinians that. They seem to be under the impression that there was never a Jewish Temple there, thereby justifying their refusal to get their mangy inbred asses out of there so the Jews can build another Temple of God, a REAL one, not a Byzantine Christian structure like the Dome of the Pagans.

Now once and for all I say this to all Muslims; explain the Kaaba being oriented to Canopus, the solstice sunrise and the four winds by Abraham and Ishmael or shut the hell up about Islam being an Abrahamic religion and admit the obvious fact that it was designed and built by pagans who worshiped the planets and stars. Complete silence will now ensue, right eagle? Too bust praying to Saturn?

Now I will explain the positioning of the Black Stone. I have an astronomy program called Starry Night which simulates the night sky at whatever time you want. The Kaaba corner is of course 90 degrees, or very close to it. So the stone would be facing a direction 45 degrees between the two walls which form that corner, as shown in the image below. The angle at which the stone faces is somewhere around 115 degrees. Hard to get the exact angle just from the wall lines in the drawing but the angle shown is close enough for out purposes.

So what happens at that point on the horizon? No significant stars or planets rise at that point but the sun does happen to rise right at that point on the winter solstices. In the time period around 400-600 AD the sun rose at about 115.2 degrees. Even today it's almost the same. You can go to Mecca on the winter solstice and watch the sun rise directly in front of you when standing right in front of the Black Stone facing exactly as the stone faces.

So that's pretty much the end of the "first monotheistic Temple" theory. Sorry to burst Muhammad's little bubble, but reality is a bitch. Is that where Allah is, eagle, at the winter solstice sunrise? How come none of the 1 billion Muslims in the world ever figured out why the stone is on that corner when it's so easy? Poor deluded Arabs, having the truth revealed to them by an unbeliever.

Incidentally, the thing in the image about the wall facing the summer solstice is wrong. The summer solstice sunrise is about 5 degrees more northward than the wall faces. Pretty close though. It's the corner which is aligned to something, not the walls. That's why the stone is on the corner.



I have now demonstrated scientifically that the Kaaba was designed as a pagan shrine and that the Black Stone faces the winter solstice sunrise. I now invite you, eagle, or any other Muslim to tell us just exactly what makes you think the Kaaba was designed as an Abrahamic Temple. Oh, and "because Muhammad said so" isn't gonna cut it. What exactly is Abrahamic about the Kaaba? I can't think of even one feature of that building which would indicate that. Not one.

Actually, it seems I'm not the first person who figured out what the Black Stone faces.

The precise alignment of the Black Stone with the winter sunrise is not coincidental. Allat, the main idol of the prophet's people, was a fertility goddess and this is confirmed by archeological evidence from Nabataean sites. As typical of such fertility goddesses their symbols and rituals are related to the sun. In this case, the direction of the winter sunrise marks the location where the sun is "reborn". Now if you take a closer look, you will see that the enclosure of the Black Stone is in the shape of a dilated female vulva and the Black Stone is in the shape of the crown of the head of the newborn baby deity as it is coming out of the vulva.

Come closer yet and you will see that people are kissing the head of the newborn baby deity. Kissing the head is an ancient Arab tradition for asking for forgiveness. So kissing the top of the head of the newborn idol as traditionally done to ask for forgiveness, results in the pagan's sins being wiped out as if he or she was a newborn.

Hang around for a while and you will observe that people spin seven times around the Black Stone. A pre-quranic manuscript written by Epiphanius in the fourth century CE describes the ritual of spinning seven times as part of the birth festivals of the Nabataean idols Allat and Dhushara around the winter solstice. The number seven was considered sacred in Arab and pagan symbolism in general because of the five sacred planets plus the sun and the moon that the ancients venerated. To this day many people in the Arab world celebrate what is termed in Arabic Subu', which is a traditional festival that takes place on the seventh day after the birth of a newborn and on the seventh day after a pilgrims' return. Like the pagan pilgrimage that we observed and Epiphanius described, as part of the Subu' birth celebrations, people traditionally go around the house seven times while carrying the newborn baby.

http://www.free-minds.org/how-did-it-come-part-1

Well, well. "Temple of monotheism", huh eagle? Wow, are you deluded. It's all about Allat. The explanation of the Black Stone symbolizing the head of a god being born makes perfect sense. That's exactly what it must be. That explains the kissing. Muhammad was kissing the other god besides Allah as it was being born. This is the great prophet of Allat, as proven by his "Satanic" verses. How do you feel now that the OBVIOUS truth is out there, eagle? Now go ahead and TRY to rebutt all of this. Even the highest Islamic scholar couldn't talk his way out of this one.

Here's a nice piece of jewelry for you, eagle. It's an Allat Amulet uncovered in Adumattu, Arabia showing the "blessing hand of Allat". Anything on there look familiar to you, eagle? What was it that Muhammad called the Black Stone? Yamin Allah, "The right hand of Allah", more like the right hand of Allat. If Allah has a hand then he must have a body and therefore be humanoid. It's not the "Yemen Corner", it's the "yamin corner". The stone must be her eye or pupil and Muhammad kissed it to receive the blessing of Allat. It could be the head of the reborn Allat or the silver casing may just coincidentally look like you know what and the stone is really the pupil of Allat. That makes more sense in regard to Muhammad's name for it. It certainly doesn't resemble a hand but it does resemble the eye on the blessing hand of Allat. They stuck it on that corner so the eye would "see" the solstice sunrise. If that amulet hadn't been found we never would have known what Muhammad was talking about. Right hand of Allah makes no sense at all. He doesn't have an eye in the middle of his hand. See those tears from the eye? That must depict the rains which the fertility goddess brings.



http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/isl ... ORVU7L149P



What does the writing below say? This is a Moorish symbol, Moors being Muslims in Spain. Or should I say, Allat worshipers in Spain?

[Eagle]

What makes you think the Kaaba was ever a "Temple of monotheism'"

Arab oral and written tradition predating even the appearance of Islam on the scene, speaking of the building of the temple by Ibrahim

the fact that it was designed to face the rising of Canopus, the "Star of Osiris"?

Its shaped like a cube meaning it faces several terrestrial and heavenly bodies, not only Canopus which a small minority of Ibrahim's descendants later started worshipping while the vast majority were idol worshipers who recognized the superiority of the One God above the idols they placed as intercessors with Him, hence the absurdity of your argument that the temple was dedicated to canopus which was far from being the greatest of their multitude of deities. There was also another minority among the Arabs. They were the righteous hanif remnants who had tried preserving the original monotheism of Ibrahim.
But back to your canopus obsession, it is easily recognizable among the objects it faces at night so it was used, among other means, to roughly locate the Kaaba by the traveller. Your logic implies that Solomon's temple facing east means it was originally intended for sun worship because of later generations of Jews having strayed into the adoration of the rising sun as related in Ezekiel8. Its nonsense. And besides, Arabs even before Islam did not face Canopus during prayer and rituals, but the Kaaba, wherever they were. Similarly, Jewish prayers were and are still directed at the Temple despite the tabernacle made to face the east.

You also need to go back to the first post. It talks of God's omnipresence in all directions and that no place posesses spiritual merit in its own essence. The whole thing is a test of obedience as said in the verses concerned and as demonstrated by the fact that these 2 qibla changes went against all political wisdom and wordly interest as claimed in the article you originally quoted.

[skynightblaze]

It did not mean, as you thought, that the Jews had no direction of prayer because it is common knowledge that they all prayed toward Jerusalem after the diaspora, which started in the 6th century BC.

I am not suggesting that. What I am saying is that the verse 2:142 tells you that every direction belongs to Allah so whether one prays towards Jerusalem or Kaba , it does not matter. This was perhaps the what the quran wanted to say.

[Eagle]

God's rules for Temple alignment to the East, ie; the rising sun (God), are very clearly stated in Exodus.

A little side not for you Arnold, which i forgot to mention earlier. In Exodus we read the following:

"He (Moses) put the table in the tabernacle of meeting on the north side of the tabernacle outside the veil; and he set the bread in order upon it before the Lord, as the Lord had commanded Moses. He put the lamp stand in the tabernacle of meeting across from the table on the south side of the tabernacle; and he lit the lamps before the Lord, as the Lord had commanded Moses. He put the gold altar in the tabernacle of meeting in front of the veil; and he burned sweet incense on it as the Lord had commanded Moses. He hung up the screen at the door of the tabernacle. And he put the altar of burnt offering before the door of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting; and offered upon it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as the Lord had commanded Moses."

Before the building of the Temple, Moses was commanded by God to perform the rituals facing south. The real question one should be asking one's self is where is the original Temple that God instituted for mankind? It surely wasnt Jerusalem, and Jerusalem held no sanctity until the time of Solomon when they were told to face the Temple in their prayers 2Chronicles6:12-42. What was the original Temple that God constituted for mankind, in which the prophecies of Israel (Chronicles) referred to as welcoming the Gentiles in, from all over the world, to worship God?

[manfred]

I am intrigued by that piece of jewelry... Thanks for sharing that...

Could you tell me the age of it and where it was found? The crescent moon and star is also interesting to see on the same piece.


And eagle, you mention that the Kaaba was mentioned to be a Monotheistic shrine (A shrine of Abraham) in written texts BEFORE Islam. Could you show me one such text? I mean a text that was written before Mohammed started his career, for lack of a better word, not a text written by Muslims discussing the Kaaba before Islam. I know those, well, many of them.

In Medina and approximately a year after the Hijra, the first Temple of monotheism, the Kaaba, was thus definitively established as the Muslims' qibla

So, When Mohammed changed the qibla, what was at that point inside the Kaaba? Mohammed had just about a year ago run off to Medina, and at the Meccans were probably walking round with a spring in their steps thinking mistakenly they finally got rid of pesky Mohammed; so they would hardly have taken out all the idols because Mohammed did not like them, would they? If they had, what did Mohammad smash? So, why did Mohammed change the quibla from monotheistic Jerusalem to polytheistic Mecca?

I would like to hear your idea on that, not some lengthy copy/paste. That would be nice anyway.

[marduk]

According to the Quran and eagle, who seems to think my name is "Arnold", it was all just a test, like everything else that Allah had no explanation for. Here's the Qibla test; will the Arabs, after having been painstakingly weaned off of idol worship, pray toward the Kaaba while it is full of idols. If they do it, they have failed the test and shown themselves to be easily persuaded to relapse into idol worship. If they refuse, they are good Muslims. They all failed. What else could the point of the test have been? To see if the Arabs would do literally anything Muhammad told them even if it went against everything he had told them up to that point? Seems like a pretty stupid test. By doing what Muhammad said you would have proven that you would follow his every command, like a good cult member should, but in the process you would have also proven that you will pray to a bunch of idols. You lose no matter what you do. As it turned out, the Arabs were proven to be more loyal to Muhammad than to God himself. Thanks for showing us that with your little test, Allah.

Now in regard to eagle's replies, I couldn't help notice that all he addressed was the fact that the Kaaba is aligned to Canopus. That's a minor point compared to the fact that the Black Stone is the Eye of Allat and is aligned to the winter solstice sunrise. Eagle won't touch that issue with a ten foot pole. Eagle is wrong about Canopus being useful in locating the Kaaba. How would that work? There is no way to use Canopus to locate the Kaaba. Keep trying, eagle. Why did Abraham point the Kaaba at Canopus?

The thing about the lamp stand in the South of the tabernacle (tent) is irrelevant to anything. Is a lamp stand supposed to be a sacred object or something?

The tabernacle of Moses faced east:

It is interesting that the Tabernacle of Moses at Mt. Sinai (Al-Lawz) faced east. If you stood on the summit, you would look east over top of the tabernacle, which itself was facing east.
A eastward facing Tabernacle (later Temple) can be inferred from the information about the court in Exodus 27:9-18, with a little help from Numbers 2:1-34 (note vs. 17).
" Then he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, water was flowing from under the threshold of the house toward the east, for the house faced east. And the water was flowing down from under, from the right side of the house, from south of the altar." Ezekiel 47:1
"He brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate by way of the gate that faces east. And behold, water was trickling from the south side." Ezekiel 47:2
"For the east side fifty cubits." Exodus 38:13
"And these are the measurements of the altar by cubits (the cubit being a cubit and a handbreadth): the base shall be a cubit and the width a cubit, and its border on its edge round about one span; and this shall be the height of the base of the altar." Ezekiel 43:13
"Then he went to the gate which faced east, went up its steps and measured the threshold of the gate, one rod in width; and the other threshold was one rod in width." Ezekiel 40:6
"Then He brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun." Ezekiel 8:16

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-ar ... altars.htm

In regard to the history of the medallion of Allat, I couldn't find much. Just drag the image into the search bar of Google images and you'll find all pages that have it.

[marduk]

I was actually wrong about the Black Stone facing the winter solstice sunrise. That Kaaba diagram I used for the geometry was nowhere close to the actual orientation of the Kaaba. From Google Earth and other images I can see that the Kaaba is aligned to Canopus as others stated but that angle is 147.4 degrees. So the stone would face 45 degrees from that, which makes it 102.6 degrees from North.

So what is actually at that angle? It's the star Rigel, the brightest star in the constellation Orion and 6th brightest star in the sky. The Kaaba therefore was positioned where it is for that reason. That particular spot has the unique characteristic of having an exact 45 degree angle between the risings of Canopus and Rigel. That's why they called it the navel of the world and a holy site etc. My guess is that the Egyptians were involved in setting up the first Kaaba since both Canopus and Rigel were important to them religiously.

I have found that the date of the original construction can be ascertained by gradually going back in time with my astronomy program until Rigel is found to rise at 102.6 degrees, as it varies over the years. It matches exactly in the year 200 AD. Canopus rose at 148.07 degrees at that time. The two stars were therefore only off from 45 degrees apart by less than half a degree. That's close enough for all practical purposes. That's when the Kaaba was first built.

BTW, eagle, you can't really find out my real name by googling "Marduk" and finding Arnold Gregory who calls himself Marduk. I just used the name because it was the high god of Babylon.

[Eagle]

The eye of Allat according to who? the one who ridiculously told you Allat was "the main idol of the prophet's people"? Or the one who brainwashed you into thinking the metal surrounding the black stone for protection, a modern addition, is in "the shape of a dilated female vulva" among other absurdities? You still havent changed, Arnie and only a stubborn and bitter disbelier as you would deny such historical facts as the Arabs' use of astronomical phenomenon such as sunrise or sunset during equinoxes, solstices, Pole star, Canopus etc to direct the mosques towards the kaaba. IT was in fact the favorite way adopted by religious authorities in medieval times to use astronomical alignments, particularly cardinal and solstitial directions and the rising point of the star Canopus to determine the correct qibla. These astronomical alignments were used by the early Muslims because they were so familiar with Kaaba that they knew that when they stood in front of the edifice, they were facing a particular astronomical direction. So in order to face the appropriate part of the Kaaba which was associated with their geographical location, they used the same astronomically-defined direction for the qibla as they would have been standing directly in front of that particular segment of Kaaba.

And how about you go to your local rabbi and find him an equally reliable online source explaining the pagan origin behind their seven circlings during the rituals of sukkot up to this day. And no the lamp stand was not worshipped, rather it indicated the direction faced during the prayer. I'll reiterate once more: it isnt the tabernacle's position and the direction it faced that is being talked about, rather the direction Moses faced inside the tabrnacle, long before the building of the Temple.

[Eagle]

And eagle, you mention that the Kaaba was mentioned to be a Monotheistic shrine (A shrine of Abraham) in written texts BEFORE Islam. Could you show me one such text?

You make your own reasearch but i will show you the way. In the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, the haniffiya, the way of Ibrahim, is mentioned by name and Ibn Ishaq quotes it in connection with Abraha's attack on the Kaaba. Sirmah ibn Anas of the Banu Adyy ibn Al Najjar was another hanif, per the work of Isabah, that renounced idolatry and became a hanif and that he worshipped only the "God of Abraham". There are countless sources that connect Abraham with the Arabs and those that desired to return to his ways were considered hanifs. This whole tradition revolved especially around the legacy of the Kaaba. The Arab tradition on this point is so strong and of such old standing that the Quran every now and then refers to it as a matter of undoubted history, and the Arabs never contended with it.

As a side note for you: the hadith, which are based upon oral tradition and oral tradition in any culture, precedes the writing of that tradition, abounds with evidence such as the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt speaking of the trial of the sacrifice which Ibrahim and Ismail went through. All history is a 'written' attestation to an ORAL tradition, meaning written word comes AFTER THE FACT. Just because pre-Islamic history became written down after a certain time period does not predicate it never existed. History did not fail to exist, because it was not written down.

[marduk]

Okay fine, but you really gotta stop calling me Arnie. Now why did the corner of the Kaaba on which they affixed the stone face directly at the rising of Rigel in 200 AD? Did Abraham revere the star Rigel, associated by the Egyptians with Osiris? And did he go ahead in time to 200 AD to build the first Kaaba? The Kaaba was designed to pinpoint Rigel and Canopus. Neither of which have anything to do with the God of Abraham.

It's the Eye of Allat according to me, that's who. Rather obvious. Perhaps you have a different explanation for Muhammad calling the stone the right hand of Allah. How is it a hand?

Now what does that Arabic say in that symbol of the Moors which is exactly like the symbol on the Allat medallion? No normal human knows Arabic because it has no use in the modern world, so I need somebody who can read it.

[Eagle]

But first make up your mind, comedian. Is it the eye of allat or her vulva?