Mohammad vs anyone that non-Muslims choose

[enceladus]

( EDITED - the challenge is now "Mohammad vs anyone that we non-Muslims choose". )

( Us non-Muslims can choose anyone else (and as many people as we like) to put forward and show that they are "better people" than Mohammad, and that they would be "better role-models" than Mohammad ).

To any Muslims out there - I have a challenge for you.

I have often seen it said that Mohammad was "the best man ever, and a role-model for all Muslims to follow and emulate." I believe that this is nonsense, and that Mohammad was one of the most evil men that ever lived. However, that is not my challenge.

My challenge to Muslims - prove that Mohammad was a "better person" than anyone else, and prove that he would be a better role-model than anyone else.

I say that there are millions of other people who would be a trillion-times better role-model to follow than Mohammad.

Your job, Muslims, is to prove me wrong.

I do not want to see any nonsense like "Mohammad was a Muslim, therefore he was better."
That is BS.

You must prove that the "character" of Mohammad was better than that of anyone else, and that Mohammad would be a better role-model to follow than anyone else.
I do not believe that you will be able to do so.

- enceladus

[marduk]

I must question your choice of doctors as a comparison with Muhammad. Doctors are not actually all the same person, contrary to popular belief. They are actually a bunch of completely different individuals who happen to share the same occupation. You would have to compare Muhammad to one particular person. Let's compare him to Jesus, for example. Muhammad's body count; at least 100,000 (while he was alive). Jesus body count; minus 1 (he brought Lazarus BACK to life). Jesus wins the contest by not being a mass murderer.

[Fernando]

I must question your choice of doctors as a comparison with Muhammad. Doctors are not actually all the same person, contrary to popular belief. They are actually a bunch of completely different individuals who happen to share the same occupation. You would have to compare Muhammad to one particular person.

Why not do both - compare him with Dr Crippen.

[enceladus]

I must question your choice of doctors as a comparison with Muhammad. Doctors are not actually all the same person, contrary to popular belief. They are actually a bunch of completely different individuals who happen to share the same occupation. You would have to compare Muhammad to one particular person. Let's compare him to Jesus, for example. Muhammad's body count; at least 100,000 (while he was alive). Jesus body count; minus 1 (he brought Lazarus BACK to life). Jesus wins the contest by not being a mass murderer.

Fair comment, marduk.

What you say is indeed true. I guess what I was trying to say was this - select any Western doctor at random (in spite of the differences), and you can basically bet your last dollar that the selected doctor will be a trillion-times better role model than Mohammad.

Ok, I will modify the challenge and specify an individual.

I put up Joseph Lister, a pioneer of antiseptic surgery (sterile surgery). He introduced phenol to sterilise medical instruments and wounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lis ... ron_Lister

He is as good a choice as anyone to represent Western doctors.

Your job, Muslims, is now to prove that Mohammad was a better role-model to follow than Joseph Lister. I think you will have a very difficult time.

You will need to prove that the "character" of Mohammad was better than that of Lister.

If you want to try to prove that Mohammad was of better "character" than Jesus,. then that is OK too. That too will also be a difficult challenge.

My aim? To show that Mohammad was NOT the "best man that ever lived". Not by a long shot. He was a lot closer to being the most evil man that ever lived.
- enceladus

[pr126]

Well, there are doctors and doctors

Apparently religion does matter even in the medical profession.

[enceladus]

Well, there are doctors and doctors

Apparently religion does matter even in the medical profession.

Indeed. Yes, that's why I mentioned Western doctors ( should probably have said "Western non-Muslim doctors" ).

( Heh.... good to see a fellow "bigot" again, pr126! <wink> )

Anyway, I have now narrowed it down to Joseph Lister (or Jesus, if anyoen wants to try to prove that Mohammad's "character" was batter than that of Jesus.)

Trying to show that Mohammad was a better role-model than either of those two will be a difficult task, I suggest. There would be literally **hundreds of millions of people** (if not more) who would be a better role-model than Mohammad.
- enceladus

[Fernando]

But Mohammed WAS a doctor! He invented inoculation - see the hadith of the Poxy Cow.

[marduk]

Let's just make it simple and compare Muhammad with any random person other than Adolf Hitler. He may have a slight advantage over Adolf but it would be hard to find any other worse role model. Compared to Asad, for instance, Muhammad killed far more Muslims. He sent them to their deaths in wars with no purpose for Allah other than as an amusing "test" to see who are the better sword fighters. The real purpose of those wars was to get booty for Muhammad, period.

[enceladus]

Let's just make it simple and compare Muhammad with any random person other than Adolf Hitler. He may have a slight advantage over Adolf but it would be hard to find any other worse role model. Compared to Asad, for instance, Muhammad killed far more Muslims. He sent them to their deaths in wars with no purpose for Allah other than as an amusing "test" to see who are the better sword fighters. The real purpose of those wars was to get booty for Muhammad, period.

Agreed.

Ok then. Muslims can put forward why they think that Mohammad was such a "good" role-model. In response, we can put forward anyone we choose (and as many people as we choose), and I'm sure that the comparison between the character of Mohammad and the characters of our choices will not be at all difficult.
- enceladus

[piscohot]

I pick Muhammad as the winner.
Why?
Unlike western doctors whom depended on thousands and thousands of different medicine for illnesses, followers of Muhammad needed only camel urine for their sickness.
Also followers of Muhammad need only to spit three times to their left to rid themselves of Satan, something western doctors are not aware of.

so Hail Muhammad!!!!

[enceladus]

I pick Muhammad as the winner.
Why?
Unlike western doctors whom depended on thousands and thousands of different medicine for illnesses, followers of Muhammad needed only camel urine for their sickness.
Also followers of Muhammad need only to spit three times to their left to rid themselves of Satan, something western doctors are not aware of.

so Hail Muhammad!!!!

Nice try, piscohot.....
Here, allow me to spell out exactly what the challenge is.

The challenge is all about the "character" of the people, and how good a role-model they would be. Positive and negative deeds (and personality traits) can be included as evidence. So can the lack of positive and/or negative deeds or traits.
For example, you can put forward Mr Joe Bloggs up against Mohammad, and mention that there is no evidence that Joe Bloggs ever killed anyone.

Character and suitability as a role-model - that is all. Nothing else.
My apologies for not making this clear enough earlier.

Allow me to kick things off, as it were.

Joseph Lister - the medical pioneer I mentioned earlier.
He has obviously contributed a great deal to the world in that he pioneered "sterile surgery".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lis ... ron_Lister
He was a member of the Quakers - he then left and joined the Scottish Episcopal Church.

There seems to be no evidence that he ever committed a crime. Certainly, no evidence that he murdered anyone. So, it can fairly be said that the positives of his life and contributions to the world vastly outweigh any (non-existent as far as is known) negatives.

It can fairly be said that Lister would make an outstanding role-model for anyone to follow.

There. Now, someone can put forward Mohammad and do a similar examination of his life, his deeds and "contributions" to the world, and weigh up (as I have) the positives against the negatives.
- enceladus

[marduk]

Very good to see that you have refined the comparison standards to literally anybody. Even Hitler can't be convincingly shown to have been eviler than Muhammad. Which is worse, getting a few million people killed in a world war or deceiving over a billion people and dooming them to hell for following a false prophet even when it was obvious that he was exactly that AND a bunch of nice people posted it on the Internet for all to see? What excuse will those people have when they get to the Cinvat Bridge, a camel trading idol worshiper named Muhammad told me he was a real prophet so I had no choice but to believe him? Ahura Mazda has little mercy for those who use stupidity as a defense. Do you think he wants stupid people in heaven with the smarts? Hardly. The property values would plummet.

[enceladus]

Very good to see that you have refined the comparison standards to literally anybody. (snip)

Anybody that us non-Muslims choose. We make the choice of people to put forward as being of "better character" and better role-models than Mohammad.

( I will define "better" - more "positive". More benevolent, non-violent, kinder, contributor of good things to the world. That gives the general idea. Lack of evidence of bad deeds is also "better". )

Anyway - I have already defeated Mohammad with my putting forward of Lister.
The balance of his life qualities and contributions to the world is overwhelmingly positive.
That can not be said of Mohammad - his "balance" is overwhelmingly negative -
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killi ... y_Muhammad

All it takes is ONE example, to show that Mohammad was not the "best person" or the "best role-model", and I have done that with Lister.

However, the challenge still remains open (for any fools who still think that they can show that Mohammad was of "better character" and a better role-model than anyone else).
- enceladus

[enceladus]

Well, well.
More than two weeks have now passed since I issued the challenge on 11th July.

No-one has come forward to try to prove that Mohammad was "the best man ever, and a role-model for all Muslims to follow and emulate." Not at all surprising, since Mohammad was in fact one of the most evil and despicable people in the history of the world.

I therefore declare the challenge closed.
Mohammad has been defeated. My putting-forward of Joseph Lister was more than good enough to defeat him.
- enceladus

[ringmaster]

Well, well.
More than two weeks have now passed since I issued the challenge on 11th July.

No-one has come forward to try to prove that Mohammad was "the best man ever, and a role-model for all Muslims to follow and emulate." Not at all surprising, since Mohammad was in fact one of the most evil and despicable people in the history of the world.

I therefore declare the challenge closed.
Mohammad has been defeated. My putting-forward of Joseph Lister was more than good enough to defeat him.
- enceladus

Point.

Set.

Match.

[Nazzim ibn Abu Talib]

Pit him against Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy or Joseph Fritzl

[ringmaster]

Pit him against Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy or Joseph Fritzl

Two big differences:

(1) They didn't murder as many as the man whore prophet did.

(2) None of those guys are revered as prophets. They were dealt with appropriately.