on thrones and waters....

[peterpin]

"First of all, there was nothing but Allah, and (then He created His Throne). His throne was over the water, and He wrote everything in the Book (in the Heaven) and created the Heavens and the Earth." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 414)

He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"
Qur'an 11: 7

So we have...

Allah--->Allah's throne---> heavens and earth

But the throne is above the water, so where did that water come from? Allah had not created the earth yet....


Also... someone else seems to have a throne like that...what a strange coincidence

Jabir reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: The throne of Iblis is upon the ocean and he sends detachments (to different parts) in order to put people to trial and the most important figure in his eyes is one who is most notorious in sowing the seed of dissension. (Sahih Muslim, Book 039, Number 6754)

So, Allah has a throne, Arsh in Arabic, which by coincidence is a rude word in German. (we have a similar word in English, that's the one.)

Well, if allah has an arsh,then he must have an arse as well? What else fits on the arsh? If is arsh is very big, I suppose his ... is big also. Maybe he needs a diet?

And why over the water? What kind of "throne" is over the water? I can only think of one kind, the kind that is the the smallest room in the house...Any idea?

[Connedbymo+co]

Basically the Koran is repeating the Bible creation story.

Waters before creation:

Genesis 1:2: The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Koran 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters

waters separated with solid barrier:

Genesis 1:7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

Koran 25:53: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Solid sky keeps fresh water sea up in heavens and salt sea flows on earth. This is why it says Allah let free both seas to flow independently having been mingled together under the throne before creation and refers to waters plural ie both sweet and salty waters.
Also note how the verse begins; it is he. The emphasis is on who let free the bodies of water, which indicates the audience was already aware of this myth.

[Connedbymo+co]

D/P

[peterpin]

Yes it seems likely that most of the creation material is taken from Genesis but it got somewhat muddled around...

But the bible version start like this:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So AFTER there was an earth, God was above the water, which was on the earth.

The Qur'an starts with the throne, which leaves you wondering where the water came from, as the hadith says.

Genesis starts with the creation of heaven and earth. Then creation is a gradual move from chaos to order.The main message of Genesis is that God is the creator of all that was, is or will be, and that his creation is GOOD. In itself the beginning of Genesis is a poem as can be easily seen even in the English text,for example it has a chorus line: "and he saw that it was good"

I would not suggest that the bible has any claims to teach cosmology, the creation story merely wants to express the belief in a benevolent and caring creator God. The cosmology is supposes would be the one in common use at the time. And it would asking too much to expect scientific rigor in a poem.

As the Jewish God has no body, any mention of a throne in other texts is merely an allegory, and only appears in songs, like the psalms or visions. In Islam, Allah's throne is not an allegory. He made his throne. Then he made the earth. The throne is therefore as real as the earth. So it is fair to ask how Allah uses a throne.

In fact, the references to creation in the Qur'an are fragmented and wooly, contradictory even. The Qur'an merely ASSIGNS fragments of the biblical creation story to Allah, in a feeble effort to make him appear to be the same God as the God from the bible. The Qur'an cannot even plagiarise properly. While the bible wants to teach something about God and his good creation, the Qur'an's purpose of relating the story at all is to write Mohammed into the line of biblical prophets, by pretending his Allah is also JHWH.

The Genesis line "the spirit of God was above the water" ends us with some kind of throne being above the water. "The spirit of God" is not an attribute of God, but a poetic description of God. God is a spirit, a being without a body. Somehow that got all mixed up and we have a "throne", a piece of furniture above the water instead.

[marduk]

The Quran says everything was created from water so it almost makes sense. BUT, what was the throne created from and what did Allah use the throne for if he didn't have a bum? Or are Muslims suggesting that Allah has a bum? That's disgusting. SEIZE THE BLASPHEMERS!!

[Connedbymo+co]

To a non religious person it's clear that the Koran copied from the Bible.
It also doesn't make much difference about the throne because they're basically implying the same thing.
That two types of water existed together initially and then God separated them.
The salty sea was put on earth and fresh water was placed in the heavens and they were separated by a firmament(solid sky).

[marduk]

To a non religious person it's clear that the Koran copied from the Bible.
It also doesn't make much difference about the throne because they're basically implying the same thing.
That two types of water existed together initially and then God separated them.
The salty sea was put on earth and fresh water was placed in the heavens and they were separated by a firmament(solid sky).

Oh yeah, maybe that's what Muhammad meant by salt water being separated from fresh water by a barrier. He didn't know about evaporation. He thought rainwater came from a huge reserve of fresh water in heaven. That makes it even worse of an error than if he meant fresh and salt water on earth. How could Allah NOT know where rain really came from? Probably because "Allah" was really an illiterate Arab. That would explain it perfectly. That belief was probably common in those days so that may be why people prayed for rain.

[Centaur]

Koranic cosmology in Descending Order

1 Allah on throne


2 Water above heavens


3 seven heavens


4 Flat Earth & water below(rivers and sea)

[piscohot]

Well, if allah has an arsh,then he must have an arse as well? What else fits on the arsh? If is arsh is very big, I suppose his ... is big also. Maybe he needs a diet?

not to worry whether allah's got an arse or not. if allah doesn't, Muhammad can sit on the throne.
I am sure that muslims would be more than happy to see that.

But i am quite sure allah got one cos' i remember somewhere out there is a hadith which mentioned allah showing his ankle.
I suppose allah's ankle would be connected to his arse...

[marduk]

I knew it, Allah is really just some guy. He has a throne to sit on and ankles to hold his legs up because he's a humanoid, a humanoid ALIEN!!! Gods don't have bodies but aliens do. He lives in the "heavens" because that's what space is. He flies around in a pillar of fire, clearly a space ship.