The stoning of Soraya M.

[Jimi]

I just watched this movie. It is a horrible story. This women was stoned in Iran. It happens regularly. Of course this is an unspeakable act in most of the world. It is. Ot even talked about. But if you believe in allah, the prophet Mohammed, and the last day, stoning is an acceptable form of punishment for moral crimes. It is done to prevent moral crimes. Obviously if stoning is the punishment, few would even attempted the crime. This is the logic anyway.

Some of us wonder why a all powerful loving god needs his creations to carry out such a punishment. Is this not between god and the person? This movie is worth a watch, but it will not make you feel very good. What a crime against humanity.

[ygalg]

so the tyrants kept in power

[katlike]

I read the book, it is a horrific story. The fact that her dad and brothers and sons were the first ones "allowed" to throw stones at her buried to the neck head is very disturbing. If mohammed showed aisha mercy for spending the night with another man, why can't male muslims show any mercy to their woman accused of adultery? Why are woman being stoned for adultery when mohammed did not stone Aisha for the same crime? Boggles my mind.

[ringmaster]

I just watched this movie. It is a horrible story. This women was stoned in Iran. It happens regularly. Of course this is an unspeakable act in most of the world. It is. Ot even talked about. But if you believe in allah, the prophet Mohammed, and the last day, stoning is an acceptable form of punishment for moral crimes. It is done to prevent moral crimes. Obviously if stoning is the punishment, few would even attempted the crime. This is the logic anyway.

Some of us wonder why a all powerful loving god needs his creations to carry out such a punishment. Is this not between god and the person? This movie is worth a watch, but it will not make you feel very good. What a crime against humanity.

Listen to the movie carefully. That poor woman was offered a "mutah" arrangement by that old fart of an imam.

I assume most members of the forum know what "mutah" is??

[KD75018]

No Ringmaster, I don't.

So, What is a "muttah", please ?

[manfred]

It's a temporary marriage.

It's more of a shia thing...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mut%27ah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_mut%E2%80%98ah

[Ozes]

Well, its not more of a Shia thing. its just that the Sunni's tend to agree it is abrogated. Nikah means penetration. Nikah Mutah is sexual intercourse. Most quran translations improperly translate Nikah as marriage which would be zawaq. In the following verses it is used, verses on marriage not mentioned here use zawaq.

Surah 24:3
Surah 2:27
Surrah 24:32
Surah 24:33
Surah 2:60
Surah 24:127
Surah 33: 53
Surah 2:235
Surah 2:237
Surah 4: 3
Surah 2:220
Surah 2: 221
Surah 24: 3
Surah 33: 53
Surah 4:6
Surah 4:22
Surah 4:25
Surah 4: 127
Surah 33:49
Surah 33:50

[manfred]

Well, its not more of a Shia thing.

?

Then you follow that immediately with:

its just that the Sunni's tend to agree it is abrogated.

Shias practice it, Sunni on the whole don't. as they assume this practice to have been abrogated.

So... that's why I said is more of a shiah thing...

[kaimana1]

No Ringmaster, I don't.

So, What is a "muttah", please ?

Hi kd75018 have you heard of "Nikah Misyar"( travel marriage )It is somewhat similar to mut'ah- but it is considered binding and legal amongst sunni ulema- even most of the sunni scholars who are against it agree that misyar is legal according to the sunnah.

[Ozes]

@Manfred
I wanted to clarify nikah mutah isn't some invention of the Shia. This as Muhammed condoned nikah mutah on several occasions. Also i wonder how Sunni's argue nikah is abroagated especially as the term occurs quite often in the quran.

[manfred]

Ahh,
now that's different,ozes, I misunderstood, I couldn't work out why you said I made a mistake (I frequently do) and then you effectively say the same thing I did...

yes, this mad thing was practiced in the early days of Islam, no question about that.

Sunnis argue that Mohammed forbade it at the time of the "battle" of the Khybar, I think.

So, while the ALL practiced it at first, the Sunnis stopped probably at the time of Umar, whereas for Shias the parctice is still alive today,because according to them they doubt the hadith and they say that Umar had no authority to outlaw it.

Don't ask me why the Sunnis argue it's abrogated, they say that if follows from Mohammaed's prohibition. It sounds a rather feable argument, as Allah did not provide a "better" ayah as such,one specifically replacing it, and, more seriously, Mohammed failed to conjure up Allah's sanction for this prohibition.

So, did Mohammed overrule Allah on this occasion?

It would not be the only thing like that, stoning for adultery is not mentioned in the quran, but is based entirely on Mohammed's precedent, the quran specifically prescribes a different punishment. Taking the two things together, it seems that Mohammed's actions override the quran in Islamic theology. That says a lot about Allah...

[Jimi]

What ever branch of screaming is more likely to support temp marriage it is very common in Indonesia, which is the largest screaming majority country. And they are Sunni by name.

It is really a way for poor women to make money. I don't know if there is shame that goes with it. But I don't think you would go around telling people you were a temp wife before. Everyone knows it is prostitution, which is very big in Indonesia.

Sunni, Shia, or double screamers temp marriage is Islam. Anyone who tells you it is not is playing word games with you or does not really know. I've heard that crap it is Shia only, nonsense.

[manfred]

Jimi for all it's worth not only the Indonesian government but also the Islamic establishment is against the practice

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Jakarta,-wave-of-fatwas-against-transsexuals,-temporary-marriages,-gossip-and-sperm-bank-19052.html

I know Indonesia very well,and I have never heard of such a marriage between two Indonesians. It's another case of abuse, like Saudis abuse their Indonesian maids. Currently Arabs are not well liked in Indonesia, to put it mildly.

Don't think, though, Indonesians are completely marriage orientated; there are a lot of quite affairs on the side,and protitution is alive and well.There is even a quite lively gay scene in major cities. It's just all a bit more hidden than in Western cities. The imams have a strangehold over a few areas of the country, natably Aceh and parts of East Java, while others are comparatively secular. Also, there Christian areas and one island is majority Hindu. It's a rather unique place. Religion is important in Indonesia, but it does not control all aspects of society, as in some other countries. It's quite different from neighbouring Malaysia.

And Jimi is right that Wahabis also use the notion of temporary marriage, when it suits them, i.e. on trips to Indonesia for sex tourism. Whether this is with full religious approval, is difficult to establish, as there were conflicting accounts. I do note that only one of five schoolsfor Fiq allows it, which is preferred by the Shias.

Daniel Pipes writes

July 25, 2010 update: Misyar is coming under criticism from Saudi lawyers and Shari'a experts as its human costs become apparent. From the Arab News:

A typical tourist marriage usually lasts for fixed periods of time (sometimes ranging a few days) and is aimed at gaining sensual pleasures and not procreating. Marriage officials often carry out these marriages with two witnesses. The officials are, however, often unaware of the fixed time periods that the couples fix between them, a clause that would, according to the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, render the marriage illegal.

The newspaper gives the example of Abu Fadi, 45, who traveled often to Southeast Asia to recruit housemaids.

It was during one of these travels that he married a woman for a short term "to avoid committing adultery." "We had memorable moments together, especially since I thought my marriage was legal Shariah-wise. I, however, regretted the decision because my ex-wife sent an e-mail with photographs from the marriage to my Saudi wife," he said. "It was a terrible experience. My wife, however, forgave me after I expressed sorrow and regret on condition I would allow her to accompany me abroad, regardless of whether it is for business, education or leisure."

The article goes on to quote various Saudi authorities about the illegality and immorality of misyar marriages.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2003/06/misyar-temporary-marriage-in-sunni-islam

The Indonesian "wife" got her own back, by sending pictures to the wife... quite funny...

[ringmaster]

........................................In the following verses it is used, verses on marriage not mentioned here use zawaq.

Surah 24:3
Surah 2:27
Surrah 24:32
Surah 24:33
Surah 2:60
Surah 24:127
Surah 33: 53
Surah 2:235
Surah 2:237
Surah 4: 3
Surah 2:220
Surah 2: 221
Surah 24: 3
Surah 33: 53
Surah 4:6
Surah 4:22
Surah 4:25
Surah 4: 127
Surah 33:49
Surah 33:50

Mesmorial did his best to convince us that "nikah" means marriage.

Whom does he think he is trying to kid?

[ringmaster]

......................

Shias practice it, Sunni on the whole don't. as they assume this practice to have been abrogated.

So... that's why I said is more of a shiah thing...

Sunnis and shias disagree on lots of things, which is why they like to kill each other with such abandon.

[EssEmmEss]

......................

Shias practice it, Sunni on the whole don't. as they assume this practice to have been abrogated.

So... that's why I said is more of a shiah thing...

Sunnis and shias disagree on lots of things, which is why they like to kill each other with such abandon.

So true.

The concept of "Mutah" disgusts me.

[ringmaster]

................

So true.

The concept of "Mutah" disgusts me.

I don't know why sunnis disagree with shias on the practice of mutah.

Mutah is entirely consistent with the terms of verse 4-24, which verse provides its scriptural basis.

But I am perfectly happy to see sunnis and shias disagree. The more they are focused on killing each other, the less likely they are to turn their attention to us infidels.