A challenge to Ghaith on did muslims or qurysh draw first blood

[Ghaith]

Kai let keep it respectful and no Shia photos please

if you really are 18

My facebook page http://www.facebook.com/Younesterrab As you can see i was Terrab

just curious by the way are you in norway now??

No im in Spain, i go to a Norwiegian High School in spain. And my point is they are counted in the 2.1b christians in the world and they do the Confirmation and everything still they are not Christians Im sure you also know some of this faithless Christians.

Likewise Ghaith when i see you post those tinfoil links about awlaki dying 3 times and 911 was an inside job - i can't help but think of tinfoil hats moonbats and
The moon being made of swiss cheese etc....

You mentioned one time i belive that the US was so stupid they didnt even cover up The Clinton Blow Job. But how many things do you think they where able to cover up? Like Israel attacking them in 1967 they did a good job covering if you ask me. Or the Mossad spy who stole information from them

They were messing with the muslims but it wasn't a first strike - abdullah ibn masood, muhammad ibn abdullah began making trouble to the pagans when they denigrated their gods and worship.

This is where faith splits us apart Kai. I belive god told Muhammad to pray their you think that the Pagan made the kaaba and Muhammad made the trouble. You sure it was abdullah and not Zayd? Im not so familiar with the Biography of Muhammad as i know it is strongly fabricated. I watched the movie The message to.

I know that there was some old churces dug up in yemen dating from the mid 500s with an inscription of the merciful arahman the messiah, and the holy spirit.

There was no miriam on the inscription.

Acctualy the Mary worshippers are famous and they are described in the quran (Many think that this means that Mary is a part of the trinty and the Quran is in error) 5:116 this are not mainstream Christians like the ones mentioned in 4:171. Many misunderstood thise verses.

This Mary worshippers are famous strange thing you never heard of them. They where called Collyridianians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

You misunderstood me on Jesus, i said there no historical records outside of Christianty (such as Roman records of the crucifixion).

But i do belive in Jesus by all means.

Now to the Kaaba, i will show you that Abraham built it according to the OT.
Now im going to be fair and not take anything out of context.
Psalm 84:4-6
Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Selah
Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

In Hebrew Bakkah mean "Valley of Weeping"

Lets use the Noble Quran 3:96-97
Yusuf Ali
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

Now kai find me a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca

[kaimana1]

Kai let keep it respectful and no Shia photos please

Ghaith you know a kafr like me has to raz you up a little

I was terrab

When i said "if you really are 18" i wasnt implying that you were lying- it's just that many people will intentionally put different age on their profile to conceal their identity, i wasnt sure if you were one of them i would believe it if you told me.

And my point is they are counted in the 2.1b christians in the world and they do the Confirmation and everything still they are not Christians Im sure you also know some of this faithless Christians

.I Know there are- but at the same time i want you to realize that there are many reasons why a non christian of christian background would do confirmation - for reasons to please family etc... same with many non muslims of muslim background that go to mosque on some fridays participate in ramadan fasting etc...in order to please family and friends.
Those non muslims are counted in the 1.6 b muslims today.

You mentioned one time i belive that the US was so stupid they didnt even cover up The Clinton Blow Job. But how many things do you think they where able to cover up? Like Israel attacking them in 1967 they did a good job covering if you ask me. Or the Mossad spy who stole information from them

Ahahaha I never said the U.S was so stupid- homerjay said that U.s govt administrations are too inept to cover up a clinton bj etc... I agreed with him
The uss liberty incident was no coverup if israel wanted it to be so- then they would not have rescued the survivors.- and for that matter the spy would never have gotten arrested.

This is where faith splits us apart Kai. I belive god told Muhammad to pray their you think that the Pagan made the kaaba and Muhammad made the trouble. You sure it was abdullah and not Zayd? Im not so familiar with the Biography of Muhammad as i know it is strongly fabricated. I watched the movie The message to.

Well, Ghaith virtually all of those stories about mo's life come from ibn ishaq and al waqidi if you believe they are fabricated then you must believe it is all fabricated-

Acctualy the Mary worshippers are famous and they are described in the quran (Many think that this means that Mary is a part of the trinty and the Quran is in error) 5:116 this are not mainstream Christians like the ones mentioned in 4:171. Many misunderstood thise verses.

Oh really Ghaith what about line 73 of al al-Ma`idah لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

key words here are ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ Third (of) three There is no corroborating evidence of any sect believing that GOD was the third of three.Those Collyridianians were an all female sect based out of arabia and syria that believed GOD was a GODDESS named miriam or mary Anyways i have many other examples in the qur'an showing how mo consistently made errors in his revelation regarding the trinityl

I do not have time now but we will get to these im sure of it. Hmmm i am smelling osama abdullah he will rot your mind Ghaith.

This Mary worshippers are famous strange thing you never heard of them. They where called Collyridianians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

I want you to read that article before i reply further Ghaith.

You misunderstood me on Jesus, i said there no historical records outside of Christianty (such as Roman records of the crucifixion).

No i didnt misunderstand you, i used all sources regarding jesus including about 10 non christian sources. why would romans record an insignificant execution? (jesus was insignificant to them)

Now to the Kaaba, i will show you that Abraham built it according to the OT.
Now im going to be fair and not take anything out of context.
Psalm 84:4-6

Ghaith, i thought you were going to be fair and quote in context. did you know that the next verse (verse 7)shows the pilgrims destination (I want you to read that four letter word on your own)

bacca was close to jerusalem bacca also means balsam trees.

As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

Wowww so we have consistent autumn rains in mecca???? anyways the fact that bacca means weeping shows that they make it a place of springs through tears do you also believe there was a valley of the shadow of death??

Yusuf Ali
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

First of all why isn't bakka here mentioned anywhere else in qur'an as mecca? HMMMM

Is bakka a loan word from the hebrew Ghaith???

w kai find me a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca

First prove that bakkah is mecca and prove that there were wells and springs only in mecca?

[Ghaith]

Hello kai.

.I Know there are- but at the same time i want you to realize that there are many reasons why a non christian of christian background would do confirmation - for reasons to please family etc... same with many non muslims of muslim background that go to mosque on some fridays participate in ramadan fasting etc...in order to please family and friends.
Those non muslims are counted in the 1.6 b muslims today.

Now you do know muslims are more devoted than Christians? The percentage of the non muslims would be far less than the one of non Christians.

then they would not have rescued the survivors.

Sources for this claim?

Well, Ghaith virtually all of those stories about mo's life come from ibn ishaq and al waqidi if you believe they are fabricated then you must believe it is all fabricated

The word corrupt would have been better.

Oh really Ghaith what about line 73 of al al-Ma`idah لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

key words here are ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ Third (of) three There is no corroborating evidence of any sect believing that GOD was the third of three.Those Collyridianians were an all female sect based out of arabia and syria that believed GOD was a GODDESS named miriam or mary Anyways i have many other examples in the qur'an showing how mo consistently made errors in his revelation regarding the trinityl

I do not have time now but we will get to these im sure of it. Hmmm i am smelling osama abdullah he will rot your mind Ghaith.

5:73 Sahih International
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

This is refering to mainstream Christians.I was talking about 5:116

No i didnt misunderstand you, i used all sources regarding jesus including about 10 non christian sources. why would romans record an insignificant execution? (jesus was insignificant to them)

When he "raised up" from the death im sure their opinion would have changed

I gotta go now kai, but i return later to adress the becca issue.

[kaimana1]

Hi Ghaith

Now you do know muslims are more devoted than Christians? The percentage of the non muslims would be far less than the one of non Christians.

I know there is a greater fear for muslims to openly apostacize in muslim countries whether through threats of death or just simply being shunned by their family and community.
Have you asked all of those 1.6 b muslims? if they are more devout in their religion?

Sources for this claim?

I should have said the israelis would not have sent two hornet helicopters and a ship to ask the liberty if they needed help
If their was a conspiracy, it would have been easy for the israelis to destroy every trace of the uss liberty and their entire crew. Also they admitted that they attacked the liberty by mistake at one point the pilots thought it might have been one of their own ships after they attacked it.

The word corrupt would have been better.

Maybe the qur'an is fabricated corrupted (or tore to shreds) as well

5:73 Sahih International
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishmentThis is refering to mainstream Christians.I was talking about 5:116

Well, trinitarian christians dont believe GOD is the third of three! Ghaith where do you get the idea that those are two different groups spoken of in 5:73 and 5:116 or even 4:171 in 5:116 the quran is merely describing what the three are (according to the qurans authors mind) wrongly at that- there's no way you can spin thaat without adding words to the quran.

When he "raised up" from the death im sure their opinion would have changed

Whose opinion? the romans? If so- then yeah if the roman authorities witnessed it.

gotta go now kai, but i return later to adress the becca issue

Be sure to bring up the paran issue as well
Il be waitin

[Ghaith]

Well, trinitarian christians dont believe GOD is the third of three! Ghaith where do you get the idea that those are two different groups spoken of in 5:73 and 5:116 or even 4:171 in 5:116 the quran is merely describing what the three are (according to the qurans authors mind) wrongly at that- there's no way you can spin thaat without adding words to the quran.

I get the idea from the Quran it self.
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 5:116

It is talking about those who worshipped Mary as a godess while, its not specific that its even only 3 gods. Could easily be talking about Catholics as they do indeed worship Mary. You bring up black stone let me tell you kissing it is not bowing down to worship Dont bother propagate on that matter

Just look at how they worship Mary.



You cannot deny that there has not been a sect of Christians beside the Collyridianians who have worshipped Mary. There have been Pagan Christians and we have Catholics today.

As for 4:171 and 5:73 no where Kai no where does it say that Mary is a part of this 3. 5:116 Christians are different from 4:171 and 5:73

Whose opinion? the romans? If so- then yeah if the roman authorities witnessed it.

As i said there is not Historical records that Jesus existed at all besides the Christian sources and all the gospels.

Be sure to bring up the paran issue as well

a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca
Wasnt enough proof Kai?

Paran is MECCA kai

Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (Genesis 21:19-22)"

The well is zamzam and he was in the desert.


"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"


"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
Israel isnt south of Sinai...

http://maps.google.com/mapsq=Sinai&hl=en&ll=27.955591,35.354004&spn=10.160565,21.51123&sll=37.09024,41.308594&sspn=36.452734,86.044922&hnear=Sinai&t=m&z=6

First of all why isn't bakka here mentioned anywhere else in qur'an as mecca? HMMMM

Isnt it obvious? Its talking about the time when it was BAKKA


Even that moron Paul knew this Kai
"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (Galatians 4:25)

Try to keep up kai

[kaimana1]

I get the idea from the Quran it self.
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 5:116

No Ghaith, 5:73 refers to God being the third of three which is in itself untrue- no trinitarian believes that, then when we read 5:116 let's add them up "'Take me"1 (jesus)- my mother 2 besides allah 3 -it takes alot of goalpost shifting to come up with other meanings about this Ghaith
Quite a few verses throughout the quran speak of the christians worshipping three

It is talking about those who worshipped Mary as a godess while, its not specific that its even only 3 gods. Could easily be talking about Catholics as they do indeed worship Mary

.
So now you admit that at best 5:116 leaves the believer (you) in conjecture? this is getting interesting Ghaith.earlier you were saying that it applied to a different group now you are implying catholics- cmon Ghaith wheres the consistency?

You bring up black stone let me tell you kissing it is not bowing down to worship Dont bother propagate on that matter

Ghaith everytime a muslim bows towards mecca (performs qibla) he/she is bowing to that tock embedded INSIDE THE WALL OF THE KAABAH


I am very well aware of the muslim excuses The hjr al aswad is ONE HELL OF A RoCKSTAR .But like it or not the comparison remains whether you like it or not.

Just look at how they worship Mary.

And just look at those muslims worship the black stone.

You cannot deny that there has not been a sect of Christians beside the Collyridianians who have worshipped Mary. There have been Pagan Christians and we have Catholics today.

Who are the other sects besides collyridianians worshipping mary- and by pagan christians you mean syncretic christians? catholics never claim to worship mary Ghaith

As for 4:171 and 5:73 no where Kai no where does it say that Mary is a part of this 3. 5:116 Christians are different from 4:171 and 5:73

Ive proved otherwise above. the third of three of the trinity is GOD????? NO Ghaith that is not what trinitarians believe
5:116 is clearly connected to 4:171 and 5:73 etc. whether you like it or not

As i said there is not Historical records that Jesus existed at all besides the Christian sources and all the gospels.

When are you going to go through all the sources i provided three of my posts above?

a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca
Wasnt enough proof Kai?

The israelites used to make their pilgrimages to jerusalem Ghaith Old Testament Baca is not in Arabia, but in northern Israel. This is stated within the text itself:

"They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in ZION." Psalm 84:7

Like we discussed before Ghaith the term Baca in Hebrew means either "weeping" or "balsam trees." So, the valley of Baca can be translated as the valley of balsam trees. We find reference to such a place located within the Valley of Rephaim, an area approximately 3-4 miles south and west of Jerusalem:

"Once more the Philistines came up and spread out in the Valley of Rephaim; so David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, ‘Do not go straight up, but circle around behind them and attack them in front of the balsam (Hebrew- Baca) trees.’" 2 Samuel 5:22-23

Also- the valley of Baca is actually less than 5 miles away from Jerusalem, it makes sense that the Psalmist could speak of pilgrims making their way through Baca valley to appear before God in Zion.

Ghaith you are cordially invited to look up the distance between Jerusalem and Mecca and use common sense to determine how likely it is that the Psalmist recommend the Israelite pilgrims to make a detour to Mecca as they made their annual pilgrimage to Mt. Zion. (Remember they are walking on their own feet!)

Paran is MECCA kai

No it isn't Ghaith

Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (Genesis 21:19-22)"

The well is zamzam and he was in the desert.

"

He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"


"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
Israel isnt south of Sinai...

You sure add alot of words that dont exist in the text Ghaith -And yes israel isnt south of sinai but mt paran is located just south of israel it aint mecca -This passage is merely talking about gods presnce coming from everywhere in aiding israels escape from egypt it's not a prophecy its in the present tense at time of writing.

Do you know what myriadS means Ghaith? in plural form ten THOUSANDS

In any case these following verses shed light on the location of paran

These are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel across the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel and Laban and Hazeroth and Dizahab." Deuteronomy 1:1
" Then Samuel died; and all Israel gathered together and mourned for him, and buried him at his house in Ramah. And David arose and went down to the wilderness of Paran." 1 Samuel 25:1
"that Hadad fled to Egypt, he and certain Edomites of his father's servants with him, while Hadad was a young boy. They arose from Midian and came to Paran; and they took men with them from Paran and came to Egypt, to Pharaoh king of Egypt, who gave him a house and assigned him food and gave him land. " 1 Kings 11:17-18

Why didnt you quote those passages Ghaith?

http://maps.google.com/mapsq=Sinai&hl=en&ll=27.955591,35.354004&spn=10.160565,21.51123&sll=37.09024,41.308594&sspn=36.452734,86.044922&hnear=Sinai&t=m&z=6

Your url isnt working here I keep getting an error 404

heres one of the wilderness of paran

Isnt it obvious? Its talking about the time when it was BAKKA

No Ghaith, there is no evidence of that claim- if that was so then bacca would have been throughout the torah and moses would have been worshipping the black stone.

Even that moron Paul knew this Kai
"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (Galatians 4:25)

Try to keep up kai

In Galatians 4:25 "Arabia" here is not the modern Muslim country of Saudi Arabia, but the Roman Province of Arabia.

The Roman Province of Arabia was the Sinai Peninsula, the northwestern portion of modern-day Jordan, and a small part of Syria.

In fact Ghaith check out these maps The Roman World p.107 or Encyclopedia Britannica under Roman History for a map proving this-Also the Romans never conquered near Mecca, so the Roman province of Arabia could not have included Mecca

You can't rely on this absurd NONSENSE Ghaith

[Ghaith]

Hello Kai.
First of all, 5:116 is not talking about the mainstream Christians. 5:73 and 4:171 are. The Christians trying to connect them together is just silly.

No Ghaith, 5:73 refers to God being the third of three which is in itself untrue

So saying god is Third in a trinty is wrong?

Just for argument sake, let say you have a son, and you spill you semen on the floor.

Would you your son and you semen be 1 Kai?


Doesnt seem like they are worshipping it

This worshipping

Ghaith everytime a muslim bows towards mecca (performs qibla) he/she is bowing to that tock embedded INSIDE THE WALL OF THE KAABAH

The Kabbah is the Qibla
That same as saying the jews worshipp the wall.

5:116 is clearly connected to 4:171 and 5:73 etc. whether you like it or not

Now kai, ive you cannot prove this. And you are being very biased by that claim. Because the Christians worship 3 gods wheter or not they like it.
Nowhere in 4:171 and 5:73 is Mary mentioned as a godess. You claim is worthles here.

Catholics worship
Mary
Jesus
God
5:116 is right.
And we also have our female friends the collyridians.

There are historical reports there where images of Mary inside the Kabba

5:116 is also aimed towards the Arabs who worshiped mary as a godess besides god and Jesus.

When are you going to go through all the sources i provided three of my posts above?

None of them where really sources

According to Remsburg,

“Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.”

If lets say the Christian claim was true we would have historical records such as

1. Being born of a virgin mother;

2. Three Magi following the brightest star forever to see the demigod;

3. The slaying of the innocent babies;

4. Raising the dead, healing the blind and lame;

4. Having the sky turn to blackness when Jesus died;

5. Earthquakes in the region;

6. The zombie saints coming out of their graves going to Jerusalem; and

7. The Resurrection.

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.html

Now here is where it get good.

The israelites used to make their pilgrimages to jerusalem Ghaith Old Testament Baca is not in Arabia, but in northern Israel. This is stated within the text itself:

"They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in ZION." Psalm 84:7

Psalm 84:7 doesnt prove Bacca isnt in Arabia, they could have passad trought Arabia and went all the way to Zion.

Bacca -> Valley of weeping
Well arabs do weep on their pilgrimage

Also- the valley of Baca is actually less than 5 miles away from Jerusalem, it makes sense that the Psalmist could speak of pilgrims making their way through Baca valley to appear before God in Zion.

Suddenly now you decided that Valley of Rephaim is Valley of Bacca? Wishfull thinking


Not that far.
What are we to say about those you Migrated to Ethiopia? And Many Traders went to Israel and Syria on that time. So its not really that far away for a pilgrimages back than...

So we are still facing a problem Kai.


Find me a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca

[kaimana1]

First of all, 5:116 is not talking about the mainstream Christians. 5:73 and 4:171 are. The Christians trying to connect them together is just silly.

How is it silly for christians to connect together the obvious Ghaith?
Did you ever read 5:75?
I will use your favorite translation sahih international "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."

No doubt this verse just clarifies that the third of three spoken of in 5:73 is the third after jesus and mary. I am sure you will try to spin it to fit your WISHFUL THINKING"

So saying god is Third in a trinty is wrong?

That is not what the verse says Ghaith? it says that GOD is the third of THREE GODS and no trinitarian believes that

Just for argument sake, let say you have a son, and you spill you semen on the floor.

Would you your son and you semen be 1 Kai?

Are you likening mary or the holy spirit as the semen??. HA HAAAAAA that is a ridiculous analogy but funny!

Doesnt seem like they are worshipping it

Sure they are yos- some of these people die every so often (stampeded and crushed) in order to venerate that black stone notice the guard with the stick next to the stone.

That is veneration to an object yos- no matter how you try to spin it.

This worshipping

Still they do not profess that mary is god they believe they use the same excuse that you muslims use Ghaith -its like a marker for worshipping god but the marker in itself is not god.

The Kabbah is the Qibla

Yeah with that PRECIOUS STONE embedded inside of it.

That same as saying the jews worshipp the wall

That is one thing that has always bothered me- the jews know damn well that they are not to use any OBJECT made on earth including walls or anything from the heaven like black meteorites etc... to worship god, yet they do it.

In any case, that doesnt excuse muslim worshipping the black stone and the kaabah for that matter.

Now kai, ive you cannot prove this. And you are being very biased by that claim. Because the Christians worship 3 gods wheter or not they like it.
Nowhere in 4:171 and 5:73 is Mary mentioned as a godess. You claim is worthles here.

Well, 5:75 sheds more light on proving my claim- the trinitarians do not claim to worship three gods. that is the difference. I havent even gone into the tafsir's yet.

Catholics worship
Mary
Jesus
God
5:116 is right.
And we also have our female friends the collyridians.

No Ghaith the catholics worship father, son and the holy spirit as one god.
5:116 is in gross error
And our female friends that were long gone by the time of muhammad? ok sure Ghaith!

You know what Ghaith for arguments sake for one moment let's say you are right (you arent)about the mary worshippers lets say their were some around in time of mo
But then this beggars the question "

Why would God choose to speak out in his final and universal revelation against some absolutely insignificant heretical group while totally ignoring the related central doctrine of the largest religion on earth (in Mo's time and today) and at the same time give the impression that he speaks to correct the errors of the CHRISTIANS?

Also why is the Qur'an putting in the effort to correct the heretical views of some small sect we really know very little about, and does not answer to the real doctrine of the Christian church Ghaith?

Does that really make sense Ghaith?

There are historical reports there where images of Mary inside the Kabba

Yes Ghaith i am also aware that in those same reports both mary and jesus was inscribed inside the kaabah, and when mo conquered mecca he refused to dispose of them . If anything it just shows how muhammad i mean allah got confused.

5:116 is also aimed towards the Arabs who worshiped mary as a godess besides god and Jesus.

Read about two comments above.

None of them where really sources

Then you quote remsburg he provides no proof for his conclusions "it's not two passages from roman writers there are 9 passages.

Regarding , jossephus antiquities of the jews . here's a good article http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html

According to Remsburg,

“Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.”

If lets say the Christian claim was true we would have historical records such as

1. Being born of a virgin mother; Granted takes faith to believe this

2. Three Magi following the brightest star forever to see the demigod; same

3. The slaying of the innocent babies; well, you mean the slaying of newborn boys in a specific area during the course of a week or so?

4. Raising the dead, healing the blind and lame; takes faith

4. Having the sky turn to blackness when Jesus died; You mean a severe storm have you ever seen the sky turn dark Ghaith during a storm?

5. Earthquakes in the region;

6. The zombie saints coming out of their graves going to Jerusalem; and well the author totally misunderstood the passage

7. The Resurrection. faith

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.html

Now here is where it get good.

Yeah, for me.

Psalm 84:7 doesnt prove Bacca isnt in Arabia, they could have passad trought Arabia and went all the way to Zion.

First of all; it proves that the destination of the pilgrimage was zion not baca. It is ridiculous and absurd to believe that isrealites travelled by foot over 1000 miles to go to zion.

Bacca -> Valley of weeping
Well arabs do weep on their pilgrimage

hmm it should be bacca-> valley of weeping/ balsam trees.
And i'm sure many of those pagan arabs used to weep on their pilgrimages in their kaabah pagan temple.

Suddenly now you decided that Valley of Rephaim is Valley of Bacca? Wishfull thinking

No Ghaith i never said that. The point was that the word that corresponds to bacca is also balsam trees and so that area a few miles outside of zion is most likely the valley of baca figuratively speaking especially when you consider that david wrote that psalm.

Not that far.

You gotta be joking me yos- you do know that country called eritrea used to be a part of ancient ethiopia. boundaries change over time -especially 1400 years

What are we to say about those you Migrated to Ethiopia? And Many Traders went to Israel and Syria on that time. So its not really that far away for a pilgrimages back than...

Half the distance of going to ethiopia was by dhow the land travel was a mere fraction of going to jerusalem from mecca. Yes traders went to syria etc.. by caravan!
By foot would be suicide

So we are still facing a problem Kai.


Find me a place on earth called Bekkah where people make pilgrimages there, and there is a pool or a well there and the city must have a well known House of Worship orther than Mecca

You dont think jerusalem had a pool,well and a well known house of worship -remember zion?

[Ghaith]

It is not obvious
5:75 is talking about Mary being right and that they both used to eat food.

5:73 never adresses any issue that Mary is a part of the Trinty. This is wishfull Christian thinking.

5:75 doesnt clarifie anything.

4:171 never mentiones what the trinty is, so it will adress all Christians no matter what they have in their trinty wheter it is Mary or The holy Ghost or who knows what will be in it in the future.

That is not what the verse says Ghaith? it says that GOD is the third of THREE GODS and no trinitarian believes that

Because the trinty is 3 gods.
Did Jesus die on the cross? Christian Answer: Yes
Was Jesus god? Christian Answer: Yes
Did god die? Christian Answer: No

Thye can knock their head on the wall all they want, they are worshipping 3.

Are you likening mary or the holy spirit as the semen??. HA HAAAAAA that is a ridiculous analogy but funny!

That is the best exampe i could think of. Because the Christian exampels with the son is far from the same idea of the trinty That what i find ridiculous.

Sure they are yos- some of these people die every so often (stampeded and crushed) in order to venerate that black stone notice the guard with the stick next to the stone.

That is veneration to an object yos- no matter how you try to spin it.

Again they are touching it not worshipping it.

Yeah with that PRECIOUS STONE embedded inside of it.

Look at how it was pre 900
Im sure you know the story.

Well, 5:75 sheds more light on proving my claim- the trinitarians do not claim to worship three gods. that is the difference. I havent even gone into the tafsir's yet.

Most tafsirs have lower knowledge then we do Kai. Se i study religion fully. While tafsir unlike most priest only study Islam. Most infact the muslim world thinks that the Bible is the Injeel and the Tanakh is the Torah. And i had to explain this many times to my father. So tafsirs in this matter where it includes other religion is really worthless. In the end of the day 4:171 still adresses and say do not say Three. While 5:73

So 5:73 and 4:171 is not for 1 trinty only (Mary nor Holy ghost). But they adress all Trinty. While 5:75 shows that Mary and Jesus was just Human.
No mention of Mary as a part of trinty any where. It would have been written if Muhammad indeed tought so. I
Matter infact Muhammad did know that the Main stream christianty, because of the Ethiopians close by.
And if he did think that Mary is a part of the trinty he would have gotten heat for it. What the Christians fail to understand is no one had a problem with this issue, just like the Jews had no problem with it being said they tought Uzair was son of god. They still converted after that.

Does that really make sense Ghaith?

That why 4:171 is universal Kai. and 5:73.

Yes Ghaith i am also aware that in those same reports both mary and jesus was inscribed inside the kaabah, and when mo conquered mecca he refused to dispose of them . If anything it just shows how muhammad i mean allah got confused.

That doesn show how Muhammad was confused. That shows that there where infact some Christians in Arabia that worshipped Mary.

Christianty in Mecca probly involved into paganism after time.

Just like they got Hubal from MOAB.

Now if we read Psalm 84

Also is there really any Geographical evidence that Jerusalem was once called Zion.

Besides its not like the ilgrimages wouldnt take breaks. So they could have gone from their homes to Mecca to Jerusalem if it is Zion.

[Ghaith]

Il be off for a few days. I response when i get time

[kaimana1]

It is not obvious
5:75 is talking about Mary being right and that they both used to eat food.

5:73 never adresses any issue that Mary is a part of the Trinty. This is wishfull Christian thinking.

Alright Ghaith lets take a look at these verses:

4:171"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."

Notice how it is clearly refering to people of the book (Ahlekitab) and the messiah mary and allah are all mentioned then we run into "and do not say three"

Okay now 5:73 "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

Now Ghaith the question then becomes who is "THEY)?? well lets look at previous verse

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

So the entire context here is allah the messiah and mary and when you take 5:75 into account it clarifies the situation even more.

then we take 5:116
"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

It's chrystal clear that muhammad thought christian trinitarian doctrine was ilah masih and mariam, the najrani christians were nestorians they didnt believe that mary was a goddess same with the northern christian arabs (byzantine rite) in tabuk.

So my point stands.

5:75 doesnt clarifie anything.

4:171 never mentiones what the trinty is, so it will adress all Christians no matter what they have in their trinty wheter it is Mary or The holy Ghost or who knows what will be in it in the future.

It was always father son and holy spirit.

Because the trinty is 3 gods.
Did Jesus die on the cross? Christian Answer: Yes
Was Jesus god? Christian Answer: Yes
Did god die? Christian Answer: No

Thye can knock their head on the wall all they want, they are worshipping 3]

No they believe that jesus was of the same essence as god in man form. but not as a seperate god.

Again they are touching it not worshipping it.

Not just touching it and kissing it, but (devout)muslims bow to it five times a day.

Look at how it was pre 900
Im sure you know the story.

Oh yes i do Ghaith, the qarmatians were trying to purify islam in their minds . they believed pilgrimages to mecca were superstitious.

I digress- after sacking mecca and medina they took the stone with them to bahrain for 22 years. but im sure the meccans replaced the stone with some other stone. back then their was no cnn, bbc, fox or al jazeera Imagine that yos- for 22 years muslims were bowing to the wrong stone, and most of them didnt even know it.

Most tafsirs have lower knowledge then we do Kai. Se i study religion fully. While tafsir unlike most priest only study Islam. Most infact the muslim world thinks that the Bible is the Injeel and the Tanakh is the Torah. And i had to explain this many times to my father. So tafsirs in this matter where it includes other religion is really worthless. In the end of the day 4:171 still adresses and say do not say Three.

So you are saying the mufassir were confused about the verses in question? Well bible comes from biblia meaning books that is what the bible is just as arab christians call them kitabul muqaddas (holy bible). as for tanakh its an acronym for torah neviim and ketuvim same thing, its the old testament in full or hebrew bible. whereas the christian bible consists of the gospel and tanakh.

All 27 books of the new testament has always been referred to as the gospel. same with the tanakh it is usually refered to as the torah, because the torah forms the basis for prophets (neviim) and writings ketuvim.

So 5:73 and 4:171 is not for 1 trinty only (Mary nor Holy ghost). But they adress all Trinty. While 5:75 shows that Mary and Jesus was just Human.
No mention of Mary as a part of trinty any where. It would have been written if Muhammad indeed tought so

.

So it's ok to worship four gods or two gods?? no Ghaith the only trinity mo is refering to is the mainstream christian trinity and mo did write it down in 5:116

Matter infact Muhammad did know that the Main stream christianty, because of the Ethiopians close by

.
Of course he did he had long delegations with the najrani christian arabs in fact 78-80 verses of the house of imran was a result of those delegations

And if he did think that Mary is a part of the trinty he would have gotten heat for it. What the Christians fail to understand is no one had a problem with this issue

Who would have given mo heat Ghaith? what non-muslim writings do we have in our possesion from arabia at that time?

just like the Jews had no problem with it being said they tought Uzair was son of god. They still converted after that

How could they? by the time line 30 of al tauba was revealed the jews were either vanquished dead or exiled.

But that verse is another example of muhammads confusion or outright deception.

You see the jews would recite their scripture in hebrew and when they spoke of ezra they would call him banoo which in hebrew means messenger, not son.
Anyways - muhammad confused banooo with the arabic ibnoo meaning son. that is what i believe happened , it's also possible that muhammad was not very jew friendly towards end of his life so he wanted to equate the jews with christians. in order to chastise them.

That why 4:171 is universal Kai. and 5:73.

Christianty in Mecca probly involved into paganism after time

If you mean evolved. Huh no they are differentiated from the pagans time after time in the quran -in fact, qur'an uses nasara for christians- the same nasara mentioned in 9:30 However no doubt some arabs who converted to christianiaty till mos time no doubt fused pagan beliefs with christian. same with the some of the arab jews. that explains why you had images of mary jesus and abraham in kaabah.

Just like they got Hubal from MOAB

.

You mean the arabs taking an old hubal idol from syria that originated in old moab? i believe that happened about a hundred years to 200 years before muhammad. It is very possible the quraysh used this god as their chief god. you see the different arab tribes in arabia would worship different gods. except the jews and christians

Also is there really any Geographical evidence that Jerusalem was once called Zion.

You can't be serious Ghaith? damn i ran out of smilies- david wrote that psalm- he reigned from jerusalem zion was one of the high hills outside of jerusalem

Besides its not like the ilgrimages wouldnt take breaks. So they could have gone from their homes to Mecca to Jerusalem if it is Zion

That is absurd Ghaith . why would they even bother going to zion when they have their own house of worship Ghaith?

[Ghaith]

Im on the smartphone kai just. still busy for the moment but read 5:116 in Arabic it says min doni so its not even a trinty because the dont worship god but just mary and jesus.

[kaimana1]

Im on the smartphone kai just. still busy for the moment but read 5:116 in Arabic it says min doni so its not even a trinty because the dont worship god but just mary and jesus.

Hiya Ghaith,

The meen donee doesnt indicate that in the verse yos- the verse is saying that jesus was saying that they took him and his mother as gods along with god- (This is the mainstream islamic reasoning of the verse or in derogation to god because taking two gods next to g\allah) . but in any case- 5:116 shows what muhammad thought was the trinity. the trinity is NEVER described anywheres else in the sense of describing what the three are but in 5:73- 4:171 and 5:75 we always get mary jesus and god no holy spirit in ANY of those verses.

[Ghaith]

Im on the smartphone kai just. still busy for the moment but read 5:116 in Arabic it says min doni so its not even a trinty because the dont worship god but just mary and jesus.

Hiya Ghaith,

The meen donee doesnt indicate that in the verse yos- the verse is saying that jesus was saying that they took him and his mother as gods along with god- (This is the mainstream islamic reasoning of the verse or in derogation to god because taking two gods next to g\allah) . but in any case- 5:116 shows what muhammad thought was the trinity. the trinity is NEVER described anywheres else in the sense of describing what the three are but in 5:73- 4:171 and 5:75 we always get mary jesus and god no holy spirit in ANY of those verses.

No Kai.

It never sayd along but Min donee. It does indicate that. The english Besides also indicates that. But without would have been better used.
So its not Trinty. Its Mary and Jesus worshippers.

The Mecca Case i get to it on Saturday.

[kaimana1]

No Kai.

It never sayd along but Min donee. It does indicate that. The english Besides also indicates that. But without would have been better used.
So its not Trinty. Its Mary and Jesus worshippers.

The Mecca Case i get to it on Saturday

No Ghaith, if that were the case it wouldnt make any sense. That is why the quran consistently uses the terminology of taking gods besides allah. It's not to jesus and mary worshippers. It's to those who believe that GOD is the third of three.

[Jonah]

That what it says in arabic Kai and the context i quiet clear.

As for the trinty. You know there are many other Trinty than just the Christian Trinty.

[kaimana1]

That what it says in arabic Kai and the context i quiet clear.

As for the trinty. You know there are many other Trinty than just the Christian Trinty.

But every verse as we discussed before in the quran talking about the subject of third of three, jesus saying " do not take me and mother as gods besides ALLAH or next to allah supports my case case 100%

The early mufassir believed this that it was talking about christians. Ther's no other logical explanation Ghaith.

[Jonah]

That what it says in arabic Kai and the context i quiet clear.

As for the trinty. You know there are many other Trinty than just the Christian Trinty.

But every verse as we discussed before in the quran talking about the subject of third of three, jesus saying " do not take me and mother as gods besides ALLAH or next to allah supports my case case 100%

The early mufassir believed this that it was talking about christians. Ther's no other logical explanation Ghaith.

Ive already showed you that all the translations of 5:116 are wrong. If you ask any arab speaker on what MIN Dooni means he will say Without and not besides.

Wa-ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta linnasiittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahiqala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola malaysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahutaAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma feenafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoob


You ever heard of Nusayris? Or maybe as you heard of them Alawis? As i see you asked me if i was one
They have a trinty. They belive God is incarniated in Muhammad that Ali is God and Salman al-Farisi.

So the Quran got a universal message for the trinty.

[kaimana1]

Ive already showed you that all the translations of 5:116 are wrong. If you ask any arab speaker on what MIN Dooni means he will say Without and not besides.

Remember, there's two reason why all the LEARNED muslim translators translate min dooni as besides or alongside or just as much as :

1) they either correspond to hadith/tafsir

2) the qurashi arabic is old archaic arabic in the context of 5:116 which is why the quran consistently talks about the christians or jesus and mary with god

You ever heard of Nusayris? Or maybe as you heard of them Alawis? As i see you asked me if i was one
They have a trinty. They belive God is incarniated in Muhammad that Ali is God and Salman al-Farisi.

Yes you are correct- but the harbinger is they grew out of islam- so they did not exist when quran was made up- or cough cough revealed

So the Quran got a universal message for the trinty

Well, you should reword that quran has universal message for CHRISTIAN TRINITY.

[Jonah]

Ive already showed you that all the translations of 5:116 are wrong. If you ask any arab speaker on what MIN Dooni means he will say Without and not besides.

Remember, there's two reason why all the LEARNED muslim translators translate min dooni as besides or alongside or just as much as :

1) they either correspond to hadith/tafsir

2) the qurashi arabic is old archaic arabic in the context of 5:116 which is why the quran consistently talks about the christians or jesus and mary with god

You ever heard of Nusayris? Or maybe as you heard of them Alawis? As i see you asked me if i was one
They have a trinty. They belive God is incarniated in Muhammad that Ali is God and Salman al-Farisi.

Yes you are correct- but the harbinger is they grew out of islam- so they did not exist when quran was made up- or cough cough revealed

So the Quran got a universal message for the trinty

Well, you should reword that quran has universal message for CHRISTIAN TRINITY.

The Alawis might not have existed at that time but the Quran is universal and timeless.

I honestly dont see why they translated it as Besides. Min Dooni makes much more sense as it adresses both those who say Jesus is god and those who say Mary is god.