Why athesits laugh at religion

[iffo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9BuxeN ... re=related

[yeezevee]

that is for you iffo... it is good to watch whole debate...

David Wolpe The Rabbi is far far smarter than any Islamic Mullah or even an Islamic intellectual with Ph.D. in Science subjects such as Quantum notes guy dr. Muzaffar Iqbal

[iffo]

Good one

[yeezevee]

[gupsfu]

Wow! Is iffo an atheist now?

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9BuxeNro0&feature=related

If any of the religions was from the all knowing genius creator, his religion and scripture should have been really smart as well, but none is

Atheists are many types.And many Atheists are normal folks who live peacfully with with their neighbors who believe in a "traditional
religion".
Of course, Muslims kill atheists of all stripes, and opress people that are not Muslims. Naturally, the religion of Islam is an abberation and can not be attributed to a loving, charitable God..

My response is to Materialist Atheists.
They are fools.
They Anti God zealots.
These are utterly irrational because they hate that whom they claim does not exist.
A sample of thyese were/are the French Revolutionaries, the Nazis, and the Communists: Totalitarians, Brutal, Genocidal, devoid of virtues of justice, and charity.

The closest to these, currently, are the Secular Progressives. They change their label whenever it becomes despicable in the mind of the public.


pilgrim

[gupsfu]

These are utterly irrational because they hate that whom they claim does not exist.

Hi my old friend pilgrim. I don't think I need to address all your ad hominem against atheists. But here's the thing - atheists don't hate your god. We all know he doesn't exist. We just hate your religion, that's all.

By the way, most atheists hate Nazism and Communism too, because they're evil ideologies, just like your religion.

[pilgrim]

These are utterly irrational because they hate that whom they claim does not exist.

Hi my old friend pilgrim. I don't think I need to address all your ad hominem against atheists. But here's the thing - atheists don't hate your god. We all know he doesn't exist. We just hate your religion, that's all.

By the way, most atheists hate Nazism and Communism too, because they're evil ideologies, just like your religion.

Hi gupsfu,
Glad to meet you again good old friend.
Gupsfu, when a secular progressive, the latest name for the anti God foot soldiers and their Mullas resorts to “I don't think I need to address all your ad hominem against atheists” it is an indication that the secular progressives don’t have the intellectual ability to formulate an answer based on sound reasoning and material evidence to support their argument.

I was going to use some good old sarcasm in responding to you on another thread. I will delay it.

There are many types of atheists. It is erroneous to lump them into one type. Even when "Atheists" are described in a specific way, it should be understood that only one or several types are implied and not all types. No one description no matter how general applies to all types of any group of humans.

With that in mind, Atheists, the "Materialist Atheists" hate God, the idea of God, and the believers in God hence, they suppress the free speech of believers, and kill the believers in traditional religion with a God or some sort of a god(s).
In the U.S.A. the secular progressives hate God, the idea of God, and the believers in God and use derogatory nasty names to attack them and to suppress the discussion of their ideas and values in the public square. The secular progressives, the irrational haters of a God they do not believe in resort to legislation by judicial fiat and other subterfuges to suppress the discussion of the values of the believers.

Nazis and Communists hated each other, and both were/are hard core Materialist Atheists.
Normal Atheists may hate Materialist Atheists such as Nazis and Communists because normal Atheists were not immune to the brutality and genocides of the Nazis and Communists.
It is like Shi’a Muslims hating Sunni Muslims because of differences on specific beliefs.

Pilgrim,
The annoyer of the close minded atheists

[gupsfu]

Nazis and Communists hated each other, and both were/are hard core Materialist Atheists.
Normal Atheists may hate Materialist Atheists such as Nazis and Communists because normal Atheists were not immune to the brutality and genocides of the Nazis and Communists.
It is like Shi’a Muslims hating Sunni Muslims because of differences on specific beliefs.

My dear pilgrim. I don't think you're qualified to speak for atheists because you showed yourself to be pretty ignorant about atheism in your above comment.

May I ask you what you think atheism actually means?

And BTW, Hitler was a Catholic, and I dare you to read Mein Kampf and still be able to tell me Nazim is an atheist ideology.

[pilgrim]

Nazis and Communists hated each other, and both were/are hard core Materialist Atheists.
Normal Atheists may hate Materialist Atheists such as Nazis and Communists because normal Atheists were not immune to the brutality and genocides of the Nazis and Communists.
It is like Shi’a Muslims hating Sunni Muslims because of differences on specific beliefs.

My dear pilgrim. I don't think you're qualified to speak for atheists because you showed yourself to be pretty ignorant about atheism in your above comment.

May I ask you what you think atheism actually means?

And BTW, Hitler was a Catholic, and I dare you to read Mein Kampf and still be able to tell me Nazim is an atheist ideology.

gupsfu,
You are laughable. That is an amusing weakness in you.
Secondly, you are a person of extreme dogmatic faith.
You have been triple brainwashed. You believe in more nonsense than the obedient slaves of Allah

Thirdly, your statement that Normal Atheists, and you do not belong to this group, were victimized by their more extreme coreligionists, the Nazis and Communists does not contribute to this discussion. The hard core atheists brutalized and committed genocide against any one they suspected of holding a different opinion. They were especially hard on Jews and Christians.
They killed.
You mock.
It is a matter of degree.
This is why I said you do not belong to the class of Normal Atheists. Normal Atheists live peacefully with others be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
But the extreme atheists’ behavior ranges from mockery based on ignorance, irrational hatred, and neurotic intolerance to orgies of brutalities and genocide.

A normal person does not make accusations or mock without solid reasons.
One may say that Muhammad was a pedophile by the standards of today.
That Muhammad was a raider by the standards of today, but not the standard of his 7th century culture.
But extreme atheists make preposterous assertions without providing factual evidence other than internet articles written by other extremists and those with an ax to grind making assertions by taking words and phrases out of context or exaggerating, or outright falsifying, and relying on the ignorance and intellectual and moral weakness of a reader or a listener.

Pilgrim

[sword_of_truth]

They killed.
You mock.

Killing, mocking, what's the difference?



Someone who equates being mocked with killing, the difference being only in degree is obviously a sissy.

That is the one of the biggest problems with muslims. They are over-sensitive to a hilarious degree.

Mocking just isn't that big of a deal. Get over it. Sticks and stones may break my bones? Didn't you ever learn that growing up?

You can mock the living daylights out of me. I might get a little annoyed, but I'm not going to compare it to killing. That's over the top. That's one of the biggest problem with religion. This insane, over the top over-sensitivity.

I don't give two hoots about atheism. THAT is one of the main advantages of atheism. We don't care about our non-belief. At least I don't, and if you hear about any atheist that is whining about people making fun of atheism, tell me about them, and I will go beat them up. That's retarded religious over-senstivity. We should be above that.

[gupsfu]

It's simply amazing how some Christians are so desperate to label Hitler an atheist.

Here are some excerpts from "Mein Kampf" :

Vol 1, Chapter 2: "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord"

Vol 1, Chapter 2: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

Vol 1, Chapter 2: "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord."

Vol 1, Chapter 7: "Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."

Vol 1, Chapter 10: "The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God."

Vol 1, Chapter 10: "But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty."

Vol 1, Chapter 11: "And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

Vol 1, Chapter 11: "The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."

Vol 2, Chapter 1: "Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."

Vol 2, Chapter 1: "Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise."

Vol 2, Chapter 1: "Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

Vol 2, Chapter 2: "A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."

Vol 2, Chapter 2: "It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture- race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

Vol 2, Chapter 2: "It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."

Vol 2, Chapter 2: "It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."

Vol 2, Chapter 10: "The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

Vol 2, Chapter 13: "For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!"

[peterpin]

There are lot of stereotypes flying around here...

First of all,an atheist don't KNOW that there is no God, they don't believe there is one, at least that is what most of them say. That is absolutely fine, but it does not mean that ALL belief in God is stupid or dangerous.

Atheism as an ideology has its own share of abuse; look at the sad history of Kombodia.

Also, it should be obvious that Hitler, even though he was baptised a Catholic, had a rather cynical view on religion: if it can help his political aims, use it, if it is in the way, suppress it.

He did essentially what Mohammed did, but at a smaller scale: He made religion a servant to his lust for power and control. He was technically a Catholic, but he abondoned orthodoxy quite completely and early on, as your post shows. I don't think he was an atheist; they would not write things like that. I don't think he was a Christian, either. He was merely looking for ways to use religion for his own purposes.

You also said that people with beliefs always get rude when talking to atheists. Personally, I have not experienced that to be able to make such a sweeping generalisation.

My line is that people make a choice as to what, if anything to believe. That choice should be examined closely, and frequently. As people reach differnt conclusions in that area, it is fair to respect people's right to make a personal judgement, as long as it does not interfer with other people.

Many atheists thought about religion a great deal, and they have reached a conclusion that is entirely valid. That does not mean it is the only possible conclusion.

Personally, I don't like ANYBODY who tries to tell me what I must think or do, nor do I think I owe anyone but myself a justification for my beliefs or lack of them.

[gupsfu]

First of all,an atheist don't KNOW that there is no God, they don't believe there is one, at least that is what most of them say. That is absolutely fine, but it does not mean that ALL belief in God is stupid or dangerous."

Correct. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. That means they don't proclaim that God absolutely doesn't exit.

However, given the fact that there's absolutely no evidence to prove to existence of any god, it would only be reasonable to assume that no god exists.

Otherwise, you would have to conceit that Allah, Lord Veda, ,the FSM or Godzilla exists as well. Would you do that?

I'm an atheist simply because there's no evidence any of the above-mentioned "gods" exists.

How about you?

[peterpin]

Otherwise, you would have to conceit that Allah, Lord Veda, ,the FSM or Godzilla exists as well. Would you do that?

??

There are planes.Is it therefore a logical necessity to say UFOs exist as well? Spaceships from Mars must exist because I have seen a plane at the airport?

There are lizards so therefore there must be dragons?

I don't have to concede that at all.

I'm an atheist simply because there's no evidence any of the above-mentioned "gods" exists.

You are not asking the right question, because you are starting with a caricature of the idea of God, which you then dismiss.

It's not exactly right, that there is no evidence,either.

There is no PROOF that God exists. As to evidence, that depends what you are willing to admit as evidence. It would be more accurate to say that there is no evidence you would look at, because none leads to incontroversible proof of the existence of God. Because there is no such proof, I will happily concede that atheism is a tenible position. However, it is not the only reasonable position. It's case of judgement.

It's rather like a crime scene investigation: evidence can be gathered, witnesses heard, even an arrest made. But in the end the jury decides the merit of the case. The jury is the evaluation we carry out, each on our own.

And no,I am not interested in talking you into believing anyhing; my point of being here is to talk about Islam. I will never assume I should inflict my beliefs on anybody else,afterall, I could be wrong and I don't want to be responsible for people making the same mistake as me.

I just find it a bit much when people presume they are better than others because they are Muslims, or, for that matter,Atheists.

[gupsfu]

??

There are planes.Is it therefore a logical necessity to say UFOs exist as well? Spaceships from Mars must exist because I have seen a plane at the airport?

There are lizards so therefore there must be dragons?

I don't have to concede that at all.

Nope. Actually it's pretty easy. I'm only asking for evidence for the existence of something that we have never seen.

Simple enough?

You are not asking the right question, because you are starting with a caricature of the idea of God, which you then dismiss.

It's not exactly right, that there is no evidence,either.

There is no PROOF that God exists. As to evidence, that depends what you are willing to admit as evidence. It would be more accurate to say that there is no evidence you would look at, because none leads to incontroversible proof of the existence of God. Because there is no such proof, I will happily concede that atheism is a tenible position. However, it is not the only reasonable position. It's case of judgement.

It's rather like a crime scene investigation: evidence can be gathered, witnesses heard, even an arrest made. But in the end the jury decides the merit of the case. The jury is the evaluation we carry out, each on our own.

And no,I am not interested in talking you into believing anyhing; my point of being here is to talk about Islam. I will never assume I should inflict my beliefs on anybody else,afterall, I could be wrong and I don't want to be responsible for people making the same mistake as me.

I just find it a bit much when people presume they are better than others because they are Muslims, or, for that matter,Atheists.

I never said I'm better than others. It would be best if you would stop making such accusations.

All I'm asking for is evidence. Is that too much to ask for?

I do understand the fact that it takes faith to believe in a particular version of god. But is that the correct path to truth? I don't think so.

[peterpin]

As I said, this is forum on Islam, so I don't want to get involved in this sideshow too much...
But I will make a few remarks on the assumptions in this sentence (leaving out the arrogant "simple enough"):

I'm only asking for evidence for the existence of something that we have never seen.

1) Can everything you see be trusted as fact?
2) How do you know there even is any kind of "real" world outside your own head? Can you PROVE that I am real?

Try that first, and then let's see if it's worth the effort to take you through all that...

[Wootah]

I have really not been able to participate at FF enough for a long time but peterpin and pilgrim seem to be good additions to the site!

[Fathom]

1) Can everything you see be trusted as fact?

Anything that can be detected by our sensory abilities exists.

Can you PROVE that I am real?

Yes, because my sensory abilities detect your existence. If you were not real, what you have typed here would not exist.

The existence of anything is determined by it's discovery via our sensory abilities ie; smell, sound, sight, touch, taste. Things not yet discovered do not yet exist to us. However, this does not mean they do not exist at all.

[peterpin]

Anything that can be detected by our sensory abilities exists.

This is both evasive and unsatisfactory.

a) Many people claim to have seen ghosts, UFOs,big foot....So I assume you allow that all these exist?If not, why would trust your own eyes if other people can make mistakes? Are you infallible?

b) Our sensory organs have developed over millions of years, and, for an atheist, this development cannot have any kind of plan or rationale behind it. They are result of random variations selected to be retained for their usefulness or their inability to cause harm. They are not designed to do anything in particular.So how can you trust such a random set of "feelers" to detect reality? How do you know there is no "reality" beyond that what these senses can detect?

c) How do you know that what our senses detect is not only reality, but ALL the reality there is? Ultraviolet light exists,I hope you will agree. You cannot see it, but it can burn your skin.

If you were not real, what you have typed here would not exist.

You seem to have a very low standard for what constitutes a proof,but only when it suits you.If people can see things that are not there, then how do you know you are not imagining that I typed anything at all? How do you know that it was me who typed it? If I created an account here under the name "Jesus",and posted a topic "I have returned", would you believe that? It could have been someone else,or a computer generated text, even a figment of your imagination. I asked for PROOF, not a mere reason to believe something to be true.

Perhaps ALL you perceive as "reality" is no more than a dream inside your head?

Things not yet discovered do not yet exist to us.

So a tree in the wilderness of Canada,never seen by any man, does not exist? Or it does not exits "to us"? Well, that tree produces some of the oxigen we breathe, so it clearly exists to us.

So, to you, only that you know exists, and only that you have sensed you know? What a small world you live in...