A challenge to Ghaith on did muslims or qurysh draw first blood

[kaimana1]

Let's get on with this Ghaith:

I posted this ibn ishaq quote in other thread
"When the apostle began to spread Islam among his people as Allah had commanded him, they did not gainsay him until he began to abuse their idols; but when he had done this, they accused him of seeking power, denied his revelation, and united to injure him. The companions of the apostle of Allah went into the valleys to pray, unknown to the people; and once, whilst Sad and several companions of the apostle were at prayer, they were discovered by idolaters who heaped insults upon them, condemned their deeds, and provoked them to fight. Then Sad struck an idolater with the jawbone of a camel, and wounded him; and this was the first blood shed in Islam."

And i went on to say "i know you will probably claim that ibn ishaq isnt reliable etc... however - i challenge you to show me something DIFFERENT from a reliable source. Remember that means no al waqidi, sealed nectar , ibn hisham , or al tabari

On to you Ghaith!

[Ghaith]

Let's get on with this Ghaith:

I posted this ibn ishaq quote in other thread
"When the apostle began to spread Islam among his people as Allah had commanded him, they did not gainsay him until he began to abuse their idols; but when he had done this, they accused him of seeking power, denied his revelation, and united to injure him. The companions of the apostle of Allah went into the valleys to pray, unknown to the people; and once, whilst Sad and several companions of the apostle were at prayer, they were discovered by idolaters who heaped insults upon them, condemned their deeds, and provoked them to fight. Then Sad struck an idolater with the jawbone of a camel, and wounded him; and this was the first blood shed in Islam."

And i went on to say "i know you will probably claim that ibn ishaq isnt reliable etc... however - i challenge you to show me something DIFFERENT from a reliable source. Remember that means no al waqidi, sealed nectar , ibn hisham , or al tabari

On to you Ghaith!

Page number of ibn ishaq?

[kaimana1]

Page number of ibn ishaq

Well here is a link to ibn ishaqs biography online http://hraic.com/hadith/ibn_ishaq.html#revelation

Scroll down on the revelation chapter page which should be on the link. scroll down briefly until after mo starts publicly preaching etc...

[Ghaith]

Page number of ibn ishaq

Well here is a link to ibn ishaqs biography online http://hraic.com/hadith/ibn_ishaq.html#revelation

Scroll down on the revelation chapter page which should be on the link. scroll down briefly until after mo starts publicly preaching etc...

Im afraid that not how it works Kai, you give a quote you give reference you dont request me to search for it.

[manfred]

stop stalling and pretending it's not there:

Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Translated by A. Guillaume, Oxford University Press, Oxford, England, (Re-issued in Karachi, Pakistan, 1967, 13th impression, 1998) 1955, p. 118.

[kaimana1]

Page number of ibn ishaq

Well here is a link to ibn ishaqs biography online http://hraic.com/hadith/ibn_ishaq.html#revelation

Scroll down on the revelation chapter page which should be on the link. scroll down briefly until after mo starts publicly preaching etc...

Im afraid that not how it works Kai, you give a quote you give reference you dont request me to search for it. :

Ghaith don't copout on me, i gave you a reference it's in the chapter of revelation which is in the link i provided.

[Ghaith]

stop stalling and pretending it's not there:

Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Translated by A. Guillaume, Oxford University Press, Oxford, England, (Re-issued in Karachi, Pakistan, 1967, 13th impression, 1998) 1955, p. 118.

Please do not get involved as this is a 1 on 1. Thank you.

[kaimana1]

stop stalling and pretending it's not there:

Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Translated by A. Guillaume, Oxford University Press, Oxford, England, (Re-issued in Karachi, Pakistan, 1967, 13th impression, 1998) 1955, p. 118.

Thanks manfred but take it easy on Ghaith, he wants to debate me one on one, i will respect that despite the fact- no doubt we will experience some copouts from my man Ghaith similar to the last.

[Ghaith]

Since you where to weak to give the reference and your friend did we will use it.

Now to top it all of this kitabs are not authentic.

Also Kai dont you think that the polytheist got it comming for starting the fight by provoking.
Also should the actions of Sad be taken resposible for the entire feud?

Here something the quraish did from an authentic book Sahih al Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 499:
Narrated 'Amr bin Maimuin:

'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said, "While Allah's Apostle was praying beside the Ka'ba, there were some Quraish people sitting in a gathering. One of them said, 'Don't you see this (who does deeds just to show off)? Who amongst you can go and bring the dung, blood and the abdominal contents (intestines, etc). of the slaughtered camels of the family of so and so and then wait till he prostrates and put that in between his shoulders?' The most unfortunate amongst them ('Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait) went (and brought them) and when Allah's Apostle prostrated, he put them between his shoulders. The Prophet remained in prostration and they laughed so much so that they fell on each other. A passerby went to Fatima, who was a young girl in those days. She came running and the Prophet was still in prostration. She removed them and cursed upon the Quraish on their faces. When Allah's Apostle completed his prayer, he said, 'O Allah! Take revenge on Quraish.' He said so thrice and added, 'O Allah! take revenge on 'Amr bin Hisham, 'Utba bin Rabia, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait and 'Umar a bin Al-Walid." Abdullah added, "By Allah! I saw all of them dead in the battle field on the day of Badr and they were dragged and thrown in the Qalib (a well) at Badr: Allah's Apostle then said, 'Allah's curse has descended upon the people of the Qalib (well).

[kaimana1]

Since you where to weak to give the reference and your friend did we will use it

I provided an online source for you to dwelve directly in Ghaith do you have a copy of alfred guilliames ibn ishaqs biography sirat al rasoul? that is why i posted the link in case you didn't as well for those watching.

Now to top it all of this kitabs are not authentic.

Say's the ulema who didn't like his reports for obvious reasons.

Also Kai dont you think that the polytheist got it comming for starting the fight by provoking.
Also should the actions of Sad be taken resposible for the entire feud?

So you concede that the muslims drew first blood?

Here something the quraish did
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 499:
Narrated 'Amr bin Maimuin:

'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said, "While Allah's Apostle was praying beside the Ka'ba, there were some Quraish people sitting in a gathering. One of them said, 'Don't you see this (who does deeds just to show off)? Who amongst you can go and bring the dung, blood and the abdominal contents (intestines, etc). of the slaughtered camels of the family of so and so and then wait till he prostrates and put that in between his shoulders?' The most unfortunate amongst them ('Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait) went (and brought them) and when Allah's Apostle prostrated, he put them between his shoulders. The Prophet remained in prostration and they laughed so much so that they fell on each other. A passerby went to Fatima, who was a young girl in those days. She came running and the Prophet was still in prostration. She removed them and cursed upon the Quraish on their faces. When Allah's Apostle completed his prayer, he said, 'O Allah! Take revenge on Quraish.' He said so thrice and added, 'O Allah! take revenge on 'Amr bin Hisham, 'Utba bin Rabia, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait and 'Umar a bin Al-Walid." Abdullah added, "By Allah! I saw all of them dead in the battle field on the day of Badr and they were dragged and thrown in the Qalib (a well) at Badr: Allah's Apostle then said, 'Allah's curse has descended upon the people of the Qalib (well).[/

That isnt bringing bloodshed , they placed animal entrails on him that isnt what a muslim would do to a non muslim who went to the kaabah to worship in their own manner.
i diegress- so far yos- you haven't proven your case- you are simply proving the case i made to you in our VERY FIRST DEBATE in nuther sunni debate thread remember?

[Ghaith]

Say's the ulema who didn't like his reports for obvious reasons.

You have to accept and respect what Muslims do accept as sahih and not.
This be like me using the Barnabas gospel against Christians

So you concede that the muslims drew first blood?

Dont answer a question with another question.

That isnt bringing bloodshed , they placed animal entrails on him that isnt what a muslim would do to a non muslim who went to the kaabah to worship in their own manner

This is why i like to debate with Christians, agnostic's have more of a neutral look at worship. A Christian or a Jew would have looked at this as idol worshiping is worse than Murder.

Remember Kai, we can get to some points where it depend on faith than evidence.

[kaimana1]

Try again Ghaith, this time -i probably will not answer till later on tonight.

Sleep tight don't let the bed bugs bite.

[kaimana1]

You have to accept and respect what Muslims do accept as sahih and not.
This be like me using the Barnabas gospel against Christians

That's fine and dandy but the comparison is very weak at best. There is NOT a single christian of any kind that accepts the gospel of barnabas.
While i can show you some muslim sites that are pro ibn ishaq. The sealed nectar is derived by ibn ishaqs works.

Dont answer a question with another question.

So Is that a NO or YES

This is why i like to debate with Christians, agnostic's have more of a neutral look at worship. A Christian or a Jew would have looked at this as idol worshiping is worse than Murder.

Well , a christian or a religious jew would not have gone into a pagan temple of worship like muhammad did in order to worship in the first place.Just food for thought.

Remember Kai, we can get to some points where it depend on faith than evidence

That is true , sometimes a whole lot more then others.

[kaimana1]

Now i am signing off for the time being.

On to you.

[Ghaith]

That's fine and dandy but the comparison is very weak at best. There is NOT a single christian of any kind that accepts the gospel of barnabas.
While i can show you some muslim sites that are pro ibn ishaq. The sealed nectar is derived by ibn ishaqs works.

So? There are Christians that worship virgin mary as a god. Just because some muslims are for Ibn Ishaq doesnt make it authentic.

Well , a christian or a religious jew would not have gone into a pagan temple of worship like muhammad did in order to worship in the first place.Just food for thought.

If Pagan's had control of Solomons temple before Jesus came. Dont you think they would worship? Kaaba was build by Adam. Than rebuild by Ibrahim.

I ask again

Should the actions of Sad be taken resposible for the entire feud?

If so why?

[kaimana1]

So? There are Christians that worship virgin mary as a god. Just because some muslims are for Ibn Ishaq doesnt make it authentic.

Well, Ghaith let me start off with my food for thought quote for this morning related to your second sentence- just because ALL muslims are for muhammad ibn abdullahs qur'an doesn't make the qur'an authentic"


What christians worship mary? If you say catholics and orthodox then we have to remember they don't claim mary is a god if you insist on that approach then when non muslims accuse you muslims of worshipping a stone embedded inside the kaabah five times a day and a man you pray for everyday you can't complain.

And do you know the names of two muslims that respected ibn ishaqd works?? Imam bukhari and ibn muslim -

You see Ghaith even in that ahadith you posted earlier about the entrails being wrapped around muhammads shoulders while he was praying - came through ibn ishaq
It baffles me how so many muslims don't know how their religion works.

If Pagan's had control of Solomons temple before Jesus came. Dont you think they would worship? Kaaba was build by Adam. Than rebuild by Ibrahim.

You mean the romans? the romans never interfered with the worship of the jews until they rebelled which resulted in the destruction of the city but of the temple as well.

Kaabah was built by adam huh- says who?

I ask again

Should the actions of Sad be taken resposible for the entire feud? If so why

Well, he could have walked away- but instead he became virulent and violent and sad DREW FIRST BLOOD.

therefor that wasn't self defense

[Ghaith]

Dear god Kai. You seemed much sharper when we debated khazar conspiracy.

But we have some problems here Kai, first you misunderstood me.

You mean the romans? the romans never interfered with the worship of the jews until they rebelled which resulted in the destruction of the city but of the temple as well.

What part of.

If Pagan's had control of Solomons temple before Jesus came. Dont you think they would worship? Kaaba was build by Adam. Than rebuild by Ibrahim.

Didnt you understand?

I Said if lets say the pagans came and seized the solomons temple. Dont you think jews would have tried to worship in their own manner.

Ibrahim rebuild the Kaaba, its a house for monotheism, the pagans had no right there.

What christians worship mary?

No not catholics, i am talking about Christians (they where well known in in the 8-9th century) that literary worshiped Mary as god, not catholic style. You have to agree the catholics kind of worship her to.

stone embedded inside the kaabah five times a day

Its not inside Kaabah, you mean inside Majid al haaram?

You see Ghaith even in that ahadith you posted earlier about the entrails being wrapped around muhammads shoulders while he was praying - came through ibn ishaq

Source to this claim? I do know Bukhari and Muslim took some from Ibn Ishaq, but ibn ishaq wasnt the online source that had this information also
didnt Ibn Ishaq take from other like Hammam ibn Munabbih?

Well, he could have walked away- but instead he became virulent and violent and sad DREW FIRST BLOOD.

But didnt the Pagan have the first strike Kai ?

[kaimana1]

Dear god Kai. You seemed much sharper when we debated khazar conspiracy.

First of all Ghaith, i will admit i made two mistakes in my last post to you here.

The first mistake being that i did indeed miss out on that IF
Well, That was their temple- solomon (a jew) had it built to replace the mobile tabernackle israel used to use since the time of moses.
In the case of muhammad the kaabah was built by pagans, Even in islamic recorded history you will find no instances of pagans seizing the kaabah etc..

It was simply a claim muhammad or later muslim historians made up. In fact there is circumstancial evidence that mecca wasn't more than 400 years old in mos day.

Mecca isn't found on any of the trading maps of arabia before the 400's ce

I Said if lets say the pagans came and seized the solomons temple. Dont you think jews would have tried to worship in their own manner.

Like i wrote above, the circumstances are quite different between the jews temple and the kaabah

ibrahim rebuild the Kaaba, its a house for monotheism, the pagans had no right there

Come on Ghaith, for 2000 years (supposedly) God didn't care how the meccan arabs worshipped then suddenly out of the blue for the sake of muhammad it all changes?



.

No not catholics, i am talking about Christians (they where well known in in the 8-9th century) that literary worshiped Mary as god, not catholic style. You have to agree the catholics kind of worship her to.

What christians were well known to worship mary in the 8th 9th centuries? I know of a sect of all women back in the fourth century that worshipped mary as GOD- they didnt worship a trinity though. They were monotheistisc in every sense of the word.
If i say catholics kind of worship her then you would have to say muslims kind of worship the black stone embedded INSIDE THE WALL OF THE KAABAH.

Its not inside Kaabah, you mean inside Majid al haaram?

This brings me up to my second mistake -i should have said the stone embedded inside THE WALL OF the kaabah


Now what is that embedded inside the wall of the kaabah what is the hajr al aswad

Do you not see how this can be taken as worshipping the stone Ghaith?

In any case, the thing is Ghaith neither one of my mistakes changes the dynamic of my argument ONE SINGLE IOTA.

Source to this claim? I do know Bukhari and Muslim took some from Ibn Ishaq, but ibn ishaq wasnt the online source that had this information also
didnt Ibn Ishaq take from other like Hammam ibn Munabbih?

Well, ibn ishaq narrated mostly from Aban ibn `Uthman the son of the caliph uthman ibn affaaan. Hammam ibn munabihs works are questionable more so then ibn isahq because well just read this article we are way OFF TOPIC.http://quransmessage.com/articles/sahifah Now i diegress
That is why i said CAME THROUGH IBN ISHAQ . Ibn ishaq was one of the narrators on some hadiths that imam bukhari and muslim. Of course ibn ishaq took from others He wasnt a companion, he was born 65 years after mo died- H

But didnt the Pagan have the first strike Kai

No, If sad and company walked away and the pagans struck first then you would have an argument BUT Ghaith NOT ONE SOURCE SAYS THIS.

Until now you have failed to provide evidence that pagans drew first blood.

[Ghaith]

I admit you know more about history than me. But you should look up the connection between the Sabians and Kaaba and the Jews and the Kaaba

Also since your honest. From an Islamic Point of View. Would you find Ibn Ishaq to be authentic?

You seem quiet smart, the only issue that makes you still look stupid inside my head is that you acctualy belive 9/11

But back the case

But back to the topic

No, If sad and company walked away and the pagans struck first then you would have an argument BUT Ghaith NOT ONE SOURCE SAYS THIS.

Until now you have failed to provide evidence that pagans drew first blood.

So i guess the pagan coming and bullying the Muslims was not taken as the first strike?

What christians were well known to worship mary in the 8th 9th centuries?

Christians that lived in Arabia.

Come on Ghaith, for 2000 years (supposedly) God didn't care how the meccan arabs worshipped then suddenly out of the blue for the sake of muhammad it all changes?

How do you knw that the Pagan had Kaaba for 2000 years ?

There is also a footpring from Abraham there (in Mecca) i guess you would say that fake to


This information is stronger than the Catholic faith only thread the fake Mary apparition, the protestant got no thread at all and Christianty pillars are broken. Just the other day in School i was sitting with 4 Christian Norwiegians talking about Confirmation rite. They all told me non of them belived in God nor Jesus and they where for the evolution. How many are there of this in the total 2.1b Christians in the world.

Also if we are to follow your logic on the Kaaba, than Jesus never existed. Because there is no 3rd party historical evidence that he existed.

he circumstances are quite different between the jews temple and the kaabah

No sorry, its the same. Now answer my question.

[kaimana1]

. But you should look up the connection between the Sabians and Kaaba and the Jews and the Kaaba

First of all Ghaith, i must say you are a pretty intelligent guy yourself especially if you really are 18
(you are just misguided)
The sabeans are a tricky bunch- muslim scholars dispute who they were- some believe they were the hanafee of mo's day- in modern times muslims in iraq and iran call the (mandeans) sabeans These people believe john the baptsist was the father of all prophets - and they believe that jesus stole john the baptists magic, and muhammad was demon posessed foaming at the mouth.

as for the sabians and the kaabah -There are multiple theories regarding that which on do you want to discuss? and jews and kaabah well, as i told you before the allatheena hadooo (judaized arabs) some of them were no doubt syncretic in other words they would fuse their traditional arab beliefs with that of judaism so they had no problem going to the kaabah and making an image of abraham etc... same with some christian arabs at that time.

Is that what you mean

From an Islamic Point of View. Would you find Ibn Ishaq to be authentic?

Well, it would be very difficult to defend many of his reports-in fact i have been to a muslim forum where many pro ibn ishaq muslims defend ibn ishaq against other muslims. boy they struggle Funny thing, is they generally refuse to debate kufr like me.

The thing about ibn ishaq and al tabari for that matter- those guys were the most unbiased muslim scholars if you think about it - they would report MULTIPLE conflicting narrations on any one given certain event and they would continuously write ALLAH KNOWS BEST (Allah Aalam) after each report Because they wasn't sure which ones were true. Many of the fiqaha despised them (ibn ishaq) because they didn't like many of the reports ibn ishaq seen validity in.

You seem quiet smart, the only issue that makes you still look stupid inside my head is that you acctualy belive 9/11

Likewise Ghaith when i see you post those tinfoil links about awlaki dying 3 times and 911 was an inside job - i can't help but think of tinfoil hats moonbats and
The moon being made of swiss cheese etc....

So i guess the pagan coming and bullying the Muslims was not taken as the first strike?

They were messing with the muslims but it wasn't a first strike - abdullah ibn masood, muhammad ibn abdullah began making trouble to the pagans when they denigrated their gods and worship.

Christians that lived in Arabia.

I know that there was some old churces dug up in yemen dating from the mid 500s with an inscription of the merciful arahman the messiah, and the holy spirit.

There was no miriam on the inscription.

How do you knw that the Pagan had Kaaba for 2000 years

The pagans built it look at the design of it. the people who built it built it in a way to alighn with the stars like sirius etc.. unless you want to believe abraham commited shirk then be my guest.

There is also a footpring from Abraham there (in Mecca) i guess you would say that fake to

Ghaith if you truly believe that could possibly be abrahams foot prints i dont know what to tell you.

You think that after thousands of years especially hundreds of years of pagan control of the kaabah abrahams footprints would still be intact?!!!

.

This information is stronger than the Catholic faith only thread the fake Mary apparition, the protestant got no thread at all and Christianty pillars are broken. Just the other day in School i was sitting with 4 Christian Norwiegians talking about Confirmation rite. They all told me non of them belived in God nor Jesus and they where for the evolution. How many are there of this in the total 2.1b Christians in the world.

You mean the shroud of turin and the holy grail.? well that is bogus too in my opinion

Do you see the oxymoron you wrote yos- how could four christian norweigans be christian if they don't believe in god or jesus?????
just curious by the way are you in norway now??

Anyways i have worked with many muslims over my lifetime many of them drink alcohol ,i even commited zina (fornication not adultery before i was married)with a muslimah of palestinian origin many years ago. Now you might say they were non practicing muslims, well i would agree with that, but then i turn the tables how many of the 1.6b muslims in the world are like that today?

Also if we are to follow your logic on the Kaaba, than Jesus never existed. Because there is no 3rd party historical evidence that he existed.

Sure there is Ghaith You will find 42 sources within 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life
8 Traditional New Testament Authors -Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude.

20 Early Christian Writers Outside the New Testament A.Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum.

4 Heretical Writings Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection.

9 Secular Sources Josephus (Jewish historian), Tacitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman politician), Phlegon, Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion -Suetonius, and Thallus

Now i know you might say that the two passages from josephus are forgeries but that is only shared by a few fringe historians

But then again you know who else believed in the existence of jesus?



That's right Ghaith ..muhammad ibn abdullah

No sorry, its the same. Now answer my question

No Ghaith it is NOT the same question already answered on above post.