All Muhammad`s deeds were condoned by Allah.

[peterpin]

So the hadith that you gave is a valid one,but the one I gave is not even though it is sahih, and repeated several times? Are ONLY the ones you like sahih? Or do hadith become untrue as soon as non-Muslims quote them?

No matter, it amounts to the same thing. In YOUR hadith, Mohammed points out to some Jews one of the texts in the Torah about stoning adulterers. Could Mohammed read Hebrew? The first Arabic version was not around until 200 years AFTER Mohammed died, and that one was not complete. I thought he was illiterate?

Why would any Jew ask Mohammed to settle a legal case for them? Does that sound at all likely? Do a lot of Jews in Israel today run to Shariah courts to settle problems?

Either way, your hadith suggests that by confirming a text from the torah,even long since disused, Mohammed claimed that the justification for stoning an adulterer is in fact a command by Allah. Allah's ordained this exact punishment, Mohammed insisted. That is how it ended up in Shariah law, of course.

Now the problem is, Mohammed did NOT confirm Jesus's view on adultery, did he? Did allah lead Jesus astray?


The rather obvious explanation is:Mohammed stoned adulterers,but forgot to oblige allah to provide a suitable little verse,or the verse got lost. So later generations made up stories to justify Mohammed's cruel and excessive actions. Your hadith is one of them.

[Ghaith]

So the hadith that you gave is a valid one,but the one I gave is not even though it is sahih, and repeated several times? Are ONLY the ones you like sahih? Or do hadith become untrue as soon as non-Muslims quote them?

Dont play games peter, you are better than that.
The hadith you gave contradicts the quran the one i gave favours the Quran. When a hadih contradicts the quran it automatically becomes false.

Ive already refuted them earlier.

This 3 hadiths (with the goat one) cannot be true.

Because the Quran was not based on written down text's by by Memory of Sahabas Including Omar Ali and Uthman.
So even if a goat eat a text, it could impossible have been the only source. Where did the other people recite it than for events like prayer times and Ramadan?
Uthman would have inserted it into the Quran if it was suppose to be in the quran.

Ive even given you the hadith about stoning that people tought was a aya.

"Al-shayhu wal-shayhatu iza zanaya farjumuhumanakalan
The old man and the old lady if they committed adultery then stone them

As i also stated

We are not to take a book written 200 years after the Prophet for granted over the Quran.

Could Mohammed read Hebrew? The first Arabic version was not around until 200 years AFTER Mohammed died, and that one was not complete. I thought he was illiterate?

Make sure you read the hadith right next time peter so you dont look stupid afterwards


The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones.
Sahih Bukhari 4:56:829

Muhammad didnt read the Torah, the jew did, and so did Abdullah bin Salam. Muhammad knew there was a verse about stoning. He was gods prophet after all.

Why would any Jew ask Mohammed to settle a legal case for them?

1. Muhammad was known as the trusted one before he became a prophet.
2. Jews belived he was a prophet but many choose not to convert.

Now the problem is, Mohammed did NOT confirm Jesus's view on adultery, did he? Did allah lead Jesus astray?

Jesus view on adultery was a on a fabricated text. The stonning verse in leviticus was not. If it wasnt Muhammad wouldnt have used it.

This case has now been refuted peter. If you want to keep jumping up and down on it knock your self out.

[peterpin]

In Greek there is a word for what you are doing...αἵρεσις This is often translated with heresy, but it means literally just "choice". All you do is to pick and choose the texts you like and pretend anything else is false. That way you only confirm you own prejudices,and cannot be take part in a serious discussion.

I have shown you a sahih hadith that says that stoning was revealed by Allah. You reject that one, even though generally accepted by Muslims,and referred to in several texts.

You give no reason for this rejection, other than general comments on hadith and their reliability.

Next you select a DIFFERENT hadith and pretend that this one must be more reliable than the other one. No evidence at all. Why? Because you like it better. That's all.

In fact, the one you chose to present is extremely unlikely to be real: Jews thought Mohammed to be a joke at first, and later, after he murdered 600 of them, they realised what a vile and dangerous man he was. Never would any Jew ask goyim to explain the Torah to them, ever, not then, not now.

You say Jews believed that Mohammed was a prophet, but you provide no proof.You say that Jews trusted and respected Mohammed, and again there is no proof. The cant's be any because it's ludicrous.

You also say that the saying by Jesus is a fabricated text, and again there is no proof. You simply reject the parts you don't like to hear and zoom in on the parts you do.

So, let's have a little more honesty, please. If you accept sahih hadith,let's allow ALL of them, or else NONE of them

1) According to you and YOUR hadith, stoning for adultery is divinely ordained, and that is why Mohammed did it. I presume that you too would favour this treatment in cases of adultery.

2) The gospels ask us not to judge so that we may not be judged. They ask the one without sin to throw the first stone.They ask us to pray for God's forgiveness AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESSPASS AGAINST US. ALL this is a sublimation of the stoning law. The text is perfectly clear and consistent.

There is no more evidence to suggest that you hadith is more reliable that mine, in fact the opposite it true, as at least mine is in a credible setting.

There also no evidence at all that the gospel text is "fake". They are part of and consistent with a central theme of the gospels, how the law relates to salvation.

So, we still have the issue that Mohammed contradicts his predecessor prophet.

It is also curious that the quran need to specially mention an obscure thing like a permission to marry the wife of an adopted son, but not a matter of life and death like stoning for adultery. We have a sahih hadith that says the verse is missing.

If you don't want to accept that one, fine, but then you also need to throw out all other sahih hadith.

Now you jump up and down if you like.

[iffo]

@Ghaith



All you need to do is to use your common sense for one minute and you will realize Islam is false.
Look at the pic above, these all are galaxies not stars. A god so intelligent and powerful you think will write a stupid book like quran and make these dumb statements.

And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

33:55 "It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves."

[sum]

Hello Ghaith

Did Muhammad only have Jews stoned?

sum

[Ghaith]

In Greek there is a word for what you are doing...αἵρεσις This is often translated with heresy, but it means literally just "choice". All you do is to pick and choose the texts you like and pretend anything else is false. That way you only confirm you own prejudices,and cannot be take part in a serious discussion.

I have shown you a sahih hadith that says that stoning was revealed by Allah. You reject that one, even though generally accepted by Muslims,and referred to in several texts.

You give no reason for this rejection, other than general comments on hadith and their reliability.

Next you select a DIFFERENT hadith and pretend that this one must be more reliable than the other one. No evidence at all. Why? Because you like it better. That's all.

In fact, the one you chose to present is extremely unlikely to be real: Jews thought Mohammed to be a joke at first, and later, after he murdered 600 of them, they realised what a vile and dangerous man he was. Never would any Jew ask goyim to explain the Torah to them, ever, not then, not now.

You say Jews believed that Mohammed was a prophet, but you provide no proof.You say that Jews trusted and respected Mohammed, and again there is no proof. The cant's be any because it's ludicrous.

You also say that the saying by Jesus is a fabricated text, and again there is no proof. You simply reject the parts you don't like to hear and zoom in on the parts you do.

So, let's have a little more honesty, please. If you accept sahih hadith,let's allow ALL of them, or else NONE of them

1) According to you and YOUR hadith, stoning for adultery is divinely ordained, and that is why Mohammed did it. I presume that you too would favour this treatment in cases of adultery.

2) The gospels ask us not to judge so that we may not be judged. They ask the one without sin to throw the first stone.They ask us to pray for God's forgiveness AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESSPASS AGAINST US. ALL this is a sublimation of the stoning law. The text is perfectly clear and consistent.

There is no more evidence to suggest that you hadith is more reliable that mine, in fact the opposite it true, as at least mine is in a credible setting.

There also no evidence at all that the gospel text is "fake". They are part of and consistent with a central theme of the gospels, how the law relates to salvation.

So, we still have the issue that Mohammed contradicts his predecessor prophet.

It is also curious that the quran need to specially mention an obscure thing like a permission to marry the wife of an adopted son, but not a matter of life and death like stoning for adultery. We have a sahih hadith that says the verse is missing.

If you don't want to accept that one, fine, but then you also need to throw out all other sahih hadith.

Now you jump up and down if you like.

I have already refuted you here
You can jump up and down all you like. A hadith that contradicts the quran is not sahih.
There are conditions that must be fullfilled for a hadith to be correct, one of them it cannont contradict the Quran. The hadith you gave did. Im not going to take a book written 200 year after the life of Muhammad over the Quran. How ever the hadith i gave was supported by the quran so it is Sahih. If you have problems understanding it than thats not my problem. I given you the "proof" why the you gave hadiths are wrong.

If you don't want to accept that one, fine, but then you also need to throw out all other sahih hadith.

No i dont.
Here an exampel why.

ahih bukhari

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 169:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

(The Prophet) Solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, “Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah’s Cause.” On that an Angel said to him, “Say: ‘If Allah will.’ ” But Solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, “If Solomon had said: ‘If Allah will,’ Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful.”

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 634:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Solomon once said, ‘Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah’s Cause.” On this, his companion said to him, “Say: Allah willing!” But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, ‘Allah willing’ (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah’s Cause as cavaliers. “

Volume 8, Book 79, Number 711:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

(The Prophet) Solomon said, “Tonight I will sleep with (my) ninety wives, each of whom will get a male child who will fight for Allah’s Cause.” On that, his companion (Sufyan said that his companion was an angel) said to him, “Say, “If Allah will (Allah willing).” But Solomon forgot (to say it). He slept with all his wives, but none of the women gave birth to a child, except one who gave birth to a halfboy. Abu Huraira added: The Prophet said, “If Solomon had said, “If Allah will” (Allah willing), he would not have been unsuccessful in his action, and would have attained what he had desired.” Once Abu Huraira added: Allah apostle said, “If he had accepted.”

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 561:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Prophet Solomon who had sixty wives, once said, “Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah’s Cause.” So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah’s Prophet said, “If Solomon had said; ‘If Allah Will,’ then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah’s Cause.” (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4).

[peterpin]

Ok, so far you have not "refuted" anything at all, as all you do is make statements without backing them up with evidence.

Why should any hadith be true because it aqgrees with the quran, and not if its doesn't? That that not assume that somehow the quran is a measure for truth? Where is the proof for that?

Also, as there is no stoning verse in the quran, your argument is that according to a hadith you randomly selected as valid before any other, Mohammed sentenced people to death by stoning afor adultery according to the TORAH.

Why does Mohammed not keep the Sabbath?
Eat kosher?

Or did Mohammed do the same as you,and pick and choose what parts of the Torah suited him?
If Jesus was a prophet, and there are some very loud and clear teachings on the Torah by him, why do they get ignored?
Did Mohammed do the same as you,and pick and choose what parts of the gospel suited him ?
If so, how do we know that the quran is not merely a selection of sayings that suited Mohammed,leaving out all else?

It was YOU who told me that sahih hadith are genuine, afterall, so why all the back tracking? I will say it again: either you accept them all, if the are sahaih, or none. They are not a kind of buffet to take things from. If you are happy to use ONE, then all are fair. If you reject even one sahih hadith,the honest thing to do is to set them ALL aside.

If there is a sahih hadith in which Mohammed talked gibberish, and you accept sahih hadith, well then you must accept the fact he talked rubbish on that occasion. It is part of Islam, as sahih hadith are part of Islam.

Pick and choose is not an option.This is not the sweets stand in the cinema. Accept or reject,that is the option.

[Ghaith]

Lets see peter.

Why should any hadith be true because it aqgrees with the quran,

Because it agrees with the Quran.

Your logic is that a hadith is correct no matter what this i refuted with the wifes of Solomon.

And Sahih Bukhari was written 200 years after the life of Muhammad. Im not going to take a hadith inside this book and favour it over the Quran.

But since i wanted to be nice in order for you not to cry i refuted the hadith it self.

Because the Quran was not based on written down text's by by Memory of Sahabas Including Omar Ali and Uthman.
So even if a goat eat a text, it could impossible have been the only source. Where did the other people recite it than for events like prayer times and Ramadan?
Uthman would have inserted it into the Quran if it was suppose to be in the quran.

You proved to me that you didnt read my argument and just kept posting.

Could Mohammed read Hebrew? The first Arabic version was not around until 200 years AFTER Mohammed died, and that one was not complete. I thought he was illiterate?

I colored it this time so that you wont have dificulties reading it.

[peterpin]

You say a hadith is true

Because it agrees with the Quran.

why? Does that not mean the quran is always right? Well,it's full of errors...

Your logic is that a hadith is correct no matter what this i refuted with the wifes of Solomon.

No you didn't.
My logic is simply this: Ghaith said he believe sahih hadith are genuine. He did not say some of them. Sahaih hadith have already been tested by Islamic scholars and found/judged to be genuine. A sunni Muslim must accept sahih hadith. Ghaith also told me that sahih hadith are genuine. Therefore he cannot reject even one sahih hadith without contradicting himself. It would be more honest to reject them ALL.


Also,the facts on the transmission of the quran do not agree with with the Uthman legend, and the oral transmission.

I have asked you some very specific questions about stoning and adultery, not about goats. You have not tried to answer them:

Also, as there is no stoning verse in the quran, your argument is that according to a hadith you randomly selected as valid before any other, Mohammed sentenced people to death by stoning afor adultery according to the TORAH.

Why does Mohammed not keep the Sabbath?
Eat kosher?

Or did Mohammed do the same as you,and pick and choose what parts of the Torah suited him?
If Jesus was a prophet, and there are some very loud and clear teachings on the Torah by him, why do they get ignored?
Did Mohammed do the same as you,and pick and choose what parts of the gospel suited him ?
If so, how do we know that the quran is not merely a selection of sayings that suited Mohammed,leaving out all else?

If stoning is used today,it is based on Mohammed's example. Where did Mohammed get the justification from to set this example?

[Ghaith]

Peter ( christian) is telling me muslims should trust Sahih Bukhari over the quran.

why? Does that not mean the quran is always right? Well,it's full of errors...

The quran is ALWAYS right and it doesnt contain even 1 error.

Sahaih hadith have already been tested by Islamic scholars and found/judged to be genuine.

So how many wifes did solomon have according to sahih hadiths?

Sahih bukhari

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 169:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

(The Prophet) Solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, “Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah’s Cause.” On that an Angel said to him, “Say: ‘If Allah will.’ ” But Solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, “If Solomon had said: ‘If Allah will,’ Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful.”

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 634:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Solomon once said, ‘Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah’s Cause.” On this, his companion said to him, “Say: Allah willing!” But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, ‘Allah willing’ (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah’s Cause as cavaliers. “

Volume 8, Book 79, Number 711:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

(The Prophet) Solomon said, “Tonight I will sleep with (my) ninety wives, each of whom will get a male child who will fight for Allah’s Cause.” On that, his companion (Sufyan said that his companion was an angel) said to him, “Say, “If Allah will (Allah willing).” But Solomon forgot (to say it). He slept with all his wives, but none of the women gave birth to a child, except one who gave birth to a halfboy. Abu Huraira added: The Prophet said, “If Solomon had said, “If Allah will” (Allah willing), he would not have been unsuccessful in his action, and would have attained what he had desired.” Once Abu Huraira added: Allah apostle said, “If he had accepted.”

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 561:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Prophet Solomon who had sixty wives, once said, “Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah’s Cause.” So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah’s Prophet said, “If Solomon had said; ‘If Allah Will,’ then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah’s Cause.” (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4).

Also can you give me a reference where shcolars says that Sahih bukhari is genuine and contains no fabrications?



Its impossible that the stoning verse was a aya in the quran Peter.

Because the Quran was not based on written down text's by by Memory of Sahabas Including Omar Ali and Uthman.
So even if a goat eat a text, it could impossible have been the only source. Where did the other people recite it than for events like prayer times and Ramadan?
Uthman would have inserted it into the Quran if it was suppose to be in the quran.

So since the Quran is
1. Gods words.
2. Contains no errors.
3. Contains no contradictions.

Makes it Quran>Any other source.

So if a hadith contradicts the Quran than its fabricated.

Case closed.

[Fernando]

If stoning is used today,it is based on Mohammed's example. Where did Mohammed get the justification from to set this example?

Quite clearly, he got it from Allah:

Saheeh Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_quranic_verse_on_stoning So, as I've said before, Mo edited the Koran. Then all those wonderful memorisers recited it without the stoning verse but then added from behind their hands "Don't forget to stone adulterers, but don't let the infidels blame Mo and Allah."

[Ghaith]

If stoning is used today,it is based on Mohammed's example. Where did Mohammed get the justification from to set this example?

Quite clearly, he got it from Allah:

Saheeh Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_quranic_verse_on_stoning So, as I've said before, Mo edited the Koran. Then all those wonderful memorisers recited it without the stoning verse but then added from behind their hands "Don't forget to stone adulterers, but don't let the infidels blame Mo and Allah."

... As i said to peter, that hadith took place after the death of Prophet Muhammad saw. And ive already shown why this cannot be true.

[sum]

Hello Ghaith

You have overlooked my question.

Did Muhammad only stone Jews?

Did he stone any muslims?

sum

[ringmaster]

............................
... As i said to peter, that hadith took place after the death of Prophet Muhammad saw. And ive already shown why this cannot be true.

Good grief Ghaith.....I had a good deal of respect for you because of your honesty, but now you are adopting your friend Mesmorial's tactic of trying to disavow the hadith.

I would be disappointed if you sunk to his level. I have always liked you.

That's a Sahih muslim hadith, and you are stuck with it. In fact, you are stuck with all the hadith, camel piss and all.

[Ghaith]

............................
... As i said to peter, that hadith took place after the death of Prophet Muhammad saw. And ive already shown why this cannot be true.

Good grief Ghaith.....I had a good deal of respect for you because of your honesty, but now you are adopting your friend Mesmorial's tactic of trying to disavow the hadith.

I would be disappointed if you sunk to his level. I have always liked you.

That's a Sahih muslim hadith, and you are stuck with it. In fact, you are stuck with all the hadith, camel piss and all.

Are you saying ringmaster that you have never drunk animal urine in your life? Do you read the ingredients of the medicines you have taken in your life time? Do you know its used today as a therapy against cancer

[peterpin]

The quran is ALWAYS right and it doesnt contain even 1 error.

Says ge quran...

As to the your claim that the hadith Saheeh Muslim Book 017, Number 4194 as quoted is false, it is baseless:

1) It is reported in several independent texts, all examined and judged as sahih by Muslim scholars. You have only provided an objection that it does not sit well with the quran. Then you say the quran is always right, because it says so. Therefore the hadith must be wrong. Well,I too could start a post here saying that I am always right.That does not make it so,does it?

2)You say (or better, copied...)

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

So you suggest that Mohammed EDITED the quran. Mohammed "improved" on what is supposed to be the word of God. We shall look at the implications of this interesting find.

It makes no sense at all to say a verse has been abrogated if it never was included in the first place.It also makes no sense to call a verse abrogated if there is none to replace it. It also makes no sense to say an abrogated verse's ruling remains in effect.

It's not abrogated, it MISSING, and according to your own words, it was edited out by Mohammed,which is extremely curious...

However, we do find this in the quran,which makes the whole thing even stranger:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

quran 24:2

If this is the verse to replace the missing stoning verse, why are people stoned to death today?


This does not match Mohammed's instruction and practice to stone adulterers. Why did Mohammed not follow the quran?

[Ghaith]

The quran is ALWAYS right and it doesnt contain even 1 error.

Says ge quran...

As to the your claim that the hadith Saheeh Muslim Book 017, Number 4194 as quoted is false, it is baseless:

1) It is reported in several independent texts, all examined and judged as sahih by Muslim scholars. You have only provided an objection that it does not sit well with the quran. Then you say the quran is always right, because it says so. Therefore the hadith must be wrong. Well,I too could start a post here saying that I am always right.That does not make it so,does it?

2)You say (or better, copied...)

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

So you suggest that Mohammed EDITED the quran. Mohammed "improved" on what is supposed to be the word of God. We shall look at the implications of this interesting find.

It makes no sense at all to say a verse has been abrogated if it never was included in the first place.It also makes no sense to call a verse abrogated if there is none to replace it. It also makes no sense to say an abrogated verse's ruling remains in effect.

It's not abrogated, it MISSING, and according to your own words, it was edited out by Mohammed,which is extremely curious...

However, we do find this in the quran,which makes the whole thing even stranger:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

quran 24:2

If this is the verse to replace the missing stoning verse, why are people stoned to death today?


This does not match Mohammed's instruction and practice to stone adulterers. Why did Mohammed not follow the quran?

Again better The Quran is always right. I am not to take a hadith 200 years after the life of Muhammad over gods words. You should know that.
And i have shown why the hadith is false

[ringmaster]

Again better The Quran is always right. I am not to take a hadith 200 years after the life of Muhammad over gods words. You should know that.

Actually, in verse 2-106 allah admits that he is a moron and didn't get things right, which is why he needed abrogation.

Furthermore, allah forgot things, like telling you to pray 5 times a day or telling you the terms of the Zakat.

Sorry Ghaith..........you need the hadith....camel piss and all............ or you are not muslim.

[Fernando]

Are you saying ringmaster that you have never drunk animal urine in your life? Do you read the ingredients of the medicines you have taken in your life time? Do you know its used today as a therapy against cancer

This is new to me. Is it the Koran or the hadiths that recommend camel piss? As for it being used today against cancer, do give evidence of this - and that it works - please, Ghaith. Unless of course your means you're joking, in which case it's in very poor taste.

[Ghaith]

Are you saying ringmaster that you have never drunk animal urine in your life? Do you read the ingredients of the medicines you have taken in your life time? Do you know its used today as a therapy against cancer

This is new to me. Is it the Koran or the hadiths that recommend camel piss? As for it being used today against cancer, do give evidence of this - and that it works - please, Ghaith. Unless of course your means you're joking, in which case it's in very poor taste.

Ever heard of Premarin?