Proving God exists round 2

[Makeen]

a - When we discover something true, we have discovered truth
b - For truth to be discovered, it must exist.
c - Truth therefore exists before it is discovered
d - Truth that exists before it is discovered is truth that has been applied
e - Truth that is applied is known

Argument 1: "I don't agree that for truth to be discovered it must exist".

Answer: How can you deny such simple logic? If there is an Island and I discover it, the Island had to be there before I discover it

Argument 2: "Can you please elaborate on what you mean by Truth that exists before it is discovered has been applied. I don't agree with that and it doesn't make sense to me for me to agree with it"

Answer: Let us refer to the simple truth, "Fire burns". If that simple truth has not been applied then why does fire burn? Why does that truth apply?

[Chiclets]

[Makeen]

? Sorry did I do something wrong on the forum? Should I have not started a new topic? I never intended to break forum rules.

Well anyway is anyone able to refute me or did you not respond with a response because you were unable to?

[pr126]

Where is the thread "Proving god exist round 1"?

Because on that thread should have been conclusively proven either way.

Something tells me that "Proving god exist Round 27" will still not prove anything.

[Makeen]

I've presented a new argument similar to the last one but from a different angle and slightly different. So is there anyone who can refute me?

[pr126]

I've presented a new argument similar to the last one but from a different angle and slightly different. So is there anyone who can refute me?

Are you familiar with the term Burden of proof?

Burden of Proof

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".[1]

[peterpin]

Makeen, the existence of God cannot be proven. If anyone could he would have shown that he is superior to God as he has mentally captured Him. A nicely bagged up, packaged and fully understood God is not God.

Think of God like someone knocking on many doors. Some let him in,some don't. He does not bash the door down. He leaves us a choice to open or not.

He is not "in your face". we could not have free will if it were oherwise.

[Makeen]

Well what ever has happened, I'm satisfied that it has been 24 hours and no one has been able to refute my second version of proving god with logic thread.

[Makeen]

Maybe we should stop debating and leave each other to our beliefs and when we die we will find out who was right and who was wrong.

[pr126]

Makeen, you still d not understand the burden of proof.

You are stating a claim, it is you who first has to prove that your claim is valid.

You are saying god exist, and prove me wrong. Then you are saying "you cannot, so I win"

But you have not proven to anybody that your god indeed does exist. Because you cannot.

All you are doing is shifting the burden of proof. That's wrong.

Here, read this:

The Dragon In My Garage

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

Read the rest from the link.

[SAM]

Stephen Hawking, he said "This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary,"

[pr126]

Stephen Hawking, he said "This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary,"

Appeal to authority?

[SAM]

Stephen Hawking, he said "This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary,"

Appeal to authority?

That is what you do when you are unable to respond to facts....

[pr126]

No SAM. Your "facts" are fables. Myths. Superstitions.
Rantings of a primitive, 7th century warlord, lusting for wealth, power and sex and the control of your mind to achieve what he wanted.

Yes, for you it is facts, because you are programmed never to accept any new input other than what you already have.
But programming of the human mind can be changed all by itself. Apostates from Islam prove that it is possible.

Once you realize that you can think for yourself, your chains are broken for ever.
All you got to do is ask questions and think. Many Muslims have done it already. As this forum proves.

If Allah could punish you for thinking for yourself, he would not need other humans to do the dirty job.
But there is no Allah, no hell, there is nothing to fear, except your own mind.

[peterpin]

pr126

I think SAM meant to say he hasn't got an answer to facts presented here so he uses appeals to authority, tu quoque, strawmen, and the like.

You asked him "appeals to authority?" and he replied

That is what you do when you are unable to respond to facts....

It's a case as to where to put the stress in his sentence:

That is what YOU do when you are unable to respond to facts.... = same old nonsense.
That is what you DO when you are unable to respond to facts.... = Refreshing to see him say something honest at last...

Then he uses "you" in the sense of "one":

"That is what one does when one is unable to respond to facts...."


Let's see if he can muster more honesty...

[SAM]

pr126

I think SAM meant to say he hasn't got an answer to facts presented here so he uses appeals to authority, tu quoque, strawmen, and the like.

You asked him "appeals to authority?" and he replied

That is what you do when you are unable to respond to facts....

It's a case as to where to put the stress in his sentence:

That is what YOU do when you are unable to respond to facts.... = same old nonsense.
That is what you DO when you are unable to respond to facts.... = Refreshing to see him say something honest at last...

Then he uses "you" in the sense of "one":

"That is what one does when one is unable to respond to facts...."


Let's see if he can muster more honesty...

God has blinded you to seeing Him but not me I saw God every day...at HIS hidden/secret place... ..

[peterpin]

God has blinded you to seeing Him but not me I saw God every day...at HIS hidden/secret place...

I feel sorry for God having to put with seeing you every day... He told me he is seriously considering secretely bribing Iblis to make a special effort with you... He even considered the solution applied to Lot's wife, but for the moment put that on ice, because He still wants to see you make a change in your life... He says he knows already what you will do, but he will let you make your moves...

He says he is particularly annoyed because you behave as if He is your private property, and He should follow all your ideas and wishes, and you keep calling Him by the wrong name. He also hates it when you try to make deals with Him, as if you could buy His favour. Apparently He repeatedly explained to you that He is not, and never has been a market trader, but it's not sinking in. He says to Him arrogance smells like pig-excrement.

Oh,and I asked about His secret place... God was laughing and He said you are mixing Him up with someone else, he doesn't have one, and you should stop seeing strange men in secret places... it's dangerous ...

He also says he had similar trouble with a guy called Mohammed, but he ended up getting so far out of control that even Iblis had to be talked into taking him in the end...Iblis put him into an isolation ward, he couldn't bear the rantings...

How about "Drop Dead Fred" How often do you have a chat with him?

[Terrab]

God has blinded you to seeing Him but not me I saw God every day...at HIS hidden/secret place... ..

Didnt you just commit blasphemy?

[Methinx]

I saw God every day...at HIS hidden/secret place... ..

Act 3 Scene I

GLENDOWER:
"I can call spirits from the vasty deep."
HOTSPUR
"Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?"

[peterpin]

Glendower:
Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command
The devil

Hotspur:
And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil—
By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.