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[antineoETC]

Hi Mesomorial, just in case you missed the thread I started over here OVER HERE if you'd care to give your 2 cents.

[darth]

Well I am glad you admit that “idhrib” has apparently two meanings.

I am done with going round and round with you. "Set forth" is absolutely nonsensical in the verses that you have provided. Idhrib meaning is - beat. Where did you get the idea the idea that it has two meaning, I do not know. All other apparent meanings are derived from beat/hit. None of the usages you provide of "idhrib" suggest that "set forth" is correct. On the other hand only "beat/hit" fits which is what you come to in the end anyway.
Even you agree that "idhrib" could mean "beat" in self defense or to show the husband's contempt for his wife's position. End of story.

You have not told us why the quran needed to use some other word instead of "idhrib" if it did not mean "beat". Why does it use "idhrib" in all this places where only "hit/strike" make sense? Why can a woman not "idhrib" a husband she is contemptuous about if it wants equal justice applied to all. Unless you answer these questions we cannot accept either your spin that "idhrib" does not mean "hit" nor can we accept that the quran stands for equal justice for all.

Your statements about the other religions are subjective, but still I would like to know why I should be a Zoroastrian.

You do not have to be a zoroastrian. You can pick and choose or create your own religion. Any philosophy is better than what islam is based on the quran and/or hadiths.
For starters - neither the teachings of buddhism or zoroastrianism call for killing of people who do not believe or reject your beliefs. They are not based on the shenanigans of a con man. Their holy books do not have verses related to the sex and marital life of their prophet. Their god is not a blood thirsty one who revels in the torture of human beings. And so on.

[aralmuta]

The challenger is an idiot. Whats wrong with beating women who deserve it?
I am all for beating men, women and children IF they deserve it.

[ixolite]

The challenger is an idiot. Whats wrong with beaten women who deserve it?
I am all for beating men, women and children IF they deserve it.

Thanks for proving once more what a devastating effect Islam has.

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[modnote]

Insults against other users are against the rules.

M.

[/modnote]

[aralmuta]

The challenger is an idiot. Whats wrong with beaten women who deserve it?
I am all for beating men, women and children IF they deserve it.

Thanks for proving once more what a devastating effect Islam has.

---

[modnote]

Insults against other users are against the rules.

M.

[/modnote]

You're Welcome.

[ringmaster]

The challenger is an idiot. Whats wrong with beating women who deserve it?
I am all for beating men, women and children IF they deserve it.

I think allah and muhammad deserve to be beaten.

Don't you think they both deserve it?

[freelady]

I think you went through such a huge amount of pain and work just to explain the word "daraba" so that the Koran fits with your own values. Would you go through the same pain for every single verse that contradicts your moral values?
However it did not shock you whatsoever that the verse is a humiliation to women by men whatever the sense of the word may be.
I find this verse and some others in the Quran appalling, they only reflect one thing, the wish of men to dominate women.
I am wondering if you would be able to fully adhere to Islam if the verse was addressed to women about men.

[ringmaster]

I think you went through such a huge amount of pain and work just to explain the word "daraba" so that the Koran fits with your own values. Would you go through the same pain for every single verse that contradicts your moral values?
However it did not shock you whatsoever that the verse is a humiliation to women by men whatever the sense of the word may be.
I find this verse and some others in the Quran appalling, they only reflect one thing, the wish of men to dominate women.
I am wondering if you would be able to fully adhere to Islam if the verse was addressed to women about men.

That raises the question of how any woman, with any self respect, could voluntarily accept islam. I am distinguishing such women from those who were actually born into it.

By the way...to whom does the "you" in your comment above refer? It isn't clear to me.

[ringmaster]

Hi Mesomorial, just in case you missed the thread I started over here OVER HERE if you'd care to give your 2 cents.

Are you suggesting that anything he has ever written in here is actually worth even 2 cents?

In my mind, his attempts at deceit are childish. He is not trying to formulate an islam acceptable to HIS values. He is trying to give us one that would fit within the values of civilized people. That's why he tries to remove the hadith from the equation and give us the koran-only approach. He appears to think that he can present a palatable form of the religion. When presented with ugly verses of the koran, he tries whatever intellectual gymnastics he can to try to persuade us that some other verse overrides them, that they don't really mean what they say, that the "issue is dead", and/or that they do not apply in modern times.

Pure deceit. Pure taquiya. It's his own form of jihad: the jihad of deception.

[freelady]

"You" was addressed to the person who put in the initial post defending the verse.
I agree, I also don't know how any woman can convert to Islam nowadays.

I am born muslim, but I could not accept many of the verses of the Quran, so my attitude was choosing only the nice verses that are peaceful and ignoring the rest. I had a lot of difficulties reading the agressive verses let alone believing that they could be from God. So obviously, I am not a muslim anymore but I still believe in God which are two very different things.

Possibly other women adhere to Islam just by doing the same thing: ie just ignoring the aggressive and humiliating verses and may be putting them in the context of an era when women were even more dominated by men than nowadays: ie they are not applicable anymore.

Another reason possibly women like Islam is that Islam encourages women to stay at home and not work, the husband has to work and spend for the household. So for women who are lazy and do not believe in themselves, this is an attractive option. This is also a good option for women who want to preserve their wealth, whatever money they make or have they can keep. These women just hope that men would behave themselves and not use their brutal islamic rights: beating, divorcing, marrying other women.

[darth]

Another reason possibly women like Islam is that Islam encourages women to stay at home and not work, the husband has to work and spend for the household. So for women who are lazy and do not believe in themselves, this is an attractive option. This is also a good option for women who want to preserve their wealth, whatever money they make or have they can keep. These women just hope that men would behave themselves and not use their brutal islamic rights: beating, divorcing, marrying other women.

Here you are under a misconception. The woman does "work", only it is work similar to a slave - taking care of her husband, children, home, perhaps in a polygamist large family environment with all the negative dynamics involved in those situations. There is no "compensation" for this work - health benefits, vacation hours, sick days, weekends off etc. The women cannot go out or work outside without permission. So working outside and making money is not really an option. Most inherit their money (parents or if they have been divorced).
I have interacted with people in the medical profession who have done work in muslim countries. In countries like Pakistan, the only outlet/entertainment for the women is to see the doctor - they fake hand pain, leg pain etc., just to get out of the house. In countries like saudi, the laziness has a purpose - the women spend as much as they can so that the husband cannot afford more wives.
Ignoring the terrible verses in the quran is possible in the Western world. But it does not work in muslim countries where the luxury of ignoring parts of the quran is not an option.

There can be no reform in islam unless muslims can acknowledge that the quran was not divinely authored and thus can be reinterpreted to fit modern values. Until such a time, creative reinterpretation such as memorial's are doomed to failed.

[ringmaster]

........
Until such a time, creative reinterpretation such as memorial's are doomed to failed.

Surely you jest. You call Mesmorial's diatribes "creative"?????

They are nothing more than Taquiya. He knows damn well what the ugly verses mean. He is trying to be some sort of wordsmith to make them appear to be something else.

[darth]

Surely you jest. You call Mesmorial's diatribes "creative"?????

They are nothing more than Taquiya. He knows damn well what the ugly verses mean. He is trying to be some sort of wordsmith to make them appear to be something else.

Well, I think mess is trying to be a reformist of the irshad manji mold. And even if their methods are faulty and doomed to failure, I cannot doubt that they (the reformists) are sincere.

[ringmaster]

Surely you jest. You call Mesmorial's diatribes "creative"?????

They are nothing more than Taquiya. He knows damn well what the ugly verses mean. He is trying to be some sort of wordsmith to make them appear to be something else.

Well, I think mess is trying to be a reformist of the irshad manji mold. And even if their methods are faulty and doomed to failure, I cannot doubt that they (the reformists) are sincere.

I disagree.

They are botth trying to put lipstick on a pig in order to deceive the uninformed.

Pure Taquiya. I have been to one of Irshad Manji's events. Asking her the sorts of questions to make her look like the lying servant of satan that she is was child's play for me.

[darth]

I have been to one of Irshad Manji's events. Asking her the sorts of questions to make her look like the lying servant of satan that she is was child's play for me.

Do you have details of your encounter? What were your questions and how did she answer them? Why did you conclude that she is insincere?

[ringmaster]

I have been to one of Irshad Manji's events. Asking her the sorts of questions to make her look like the lying servant of satan that she is was child's play for me.

Do you have details of your encounter? What were your questions and how did she answer them? Why did you conclude that she is insincere?

She was playing the "koran-only" game that Mesmorial likes to play. So I asked her some preliminary questions about whether she believed the koran was the final word of god, applicable to all mankind, for all time & for all places. When I stuck her on the violent medina verses she tried to argue "historical context", which point I said she was contradicting herself.

On the koran only approach, I pointed out verse 4-80, which said she as a muslim had to obey the teachings and example of the prophet. The only way to obey the prophet is to know what he said. I asked what other sources she had besides the hadith on what the prophet said.

She tried to argue that the problem was with "Islam today". So I asked what was different about the koran & hadith before, and how "islam today" departs from the koran. Of course, she tried to argue the more peaceful Mecca verses, which I pointed out were abrogated.

She really did nothing more than dissimulate & try to change the subject.

We must remember that she & Mesmorial are prattling their crap in the west. You don't hear about them doing this in an islamic country where the stuff they preach here would brand them as heretics. They are just using their rhetorical skills to whitewash disgusting filth. They are trying to present a palatable version to westerners, which everybody in here knows to be rubbish. That's why I do not think they are sincere at all. It's all just bullcrap taquiya.

If they were true to their convictions they would try to sell their version of things in an islamic country. They both come across as snake oil sales people to me. I would trust a used car salesman more.

[darth]

She was playing the "koran-only" game that Mesmorial likes to play. So I asked her some preliminary questions about whether she believed the koran was the final word of god, applicable to all mankind, for all time & for all places. When I stuck her on the violent medina verses she tried to argue "historical context", which point I said she was contradicting herself.

I have heard her say (on T.V and youtube, never met her in person) that she does not think the quran is divinely authored, merely divinely inspired.

That leaves scope in her mind, I suppose, for reinterpretation. I have emailed her before with similar questions but have never received any response.

BTW, are you an apostate?

[ringmaster]

She was playing the "koran-only" game that Mesmorial likes to play. So I asked her some preliminary questions about whether she believed the koran was the final word of god, applicable to all mankind, for all time & for all places. When I stuck her on the violent medina verses she tried to argue "historical context", which point I said she was contradicting herself.

I have heard her say (on T.V and youtube, never met her in person) that she does not think the quran is divinely authored, merely divinely inspired.

That leaves scope in her mind, I suppose, for reinterpretation. I have emailed her before with similar questions but have never received any response.

BTW, are you an apostate?

(1) It doen't matter what she says. She will not answer tough questions. As with her comments on the authorship of the koran, she dissimulates and deflects very well, like most muslims. She will not face tough questions on it. Her modus operandi, I am convinced, is pure taquiya.

(2) According to islam, we are all apostates, whether we have ever been muslim or not. But to answer your question, I have never been muslim.