Free Logic for humanity, plz any of there scholars reply

[Amanalice]

Hello all,

I am new here so let me introduce my self a little. I am Phd student from India (i know you can track my IP). As per as my religion concerns I am Hindu by birth but due to my own free thinking made me not to believe in any misguiding thing in my holy books (Mahabharta, Geeta, Ramayana etc..). Further more I have 2 best friends (as brothers) from Muslim religion and my fiance is a Christian. So I respect all religions as I know them personally and not how they are in books (thanks to your site that told me about Quran in a different light than what I had heard till date).

Now, going to my main reason for this topic. I felt and clearly it is visible (according to the verses) that all the charges of Mr. Ali are true and no any defender could defend the Quran in a scientific and logical manner. I also felt that Muhammad was sure not a prophet due the life he lived and the verses according to his present situations showed only how he was smart (more like foolish) as he shifted his tone and complete living style when he wanted to do so. From sex lust to loot, every time he blamed Allah for his deeds and revealed a verse.

I also saw the errors Mr. Ali and all scholars here posted about Quran. Yes they are not only errors but they are like joke for many things (splitting moon etc..), But one second thought what you all wants to prove by this ? Let me list few things you wanted (as per my thinking ) :-

1) Mohammad was not a prophet

2) Quran is not a book from God

This is what I got all, I am sorry if you have any different motive and if any then please inform me same.

Now about the charges we all know (thanks to you and some Ex-Muslims). Please allow me to discuss each of them one by one.

1) Mohammad was not a prophet

Yes i also got it well and found same as Mr. Ali said but why you are interested in a looters life so much ? I mean ok he was a criminal minded, lustful man but so what ? Don't follow him. How simple it is, not it ? Why to waste so much resources and time to prove him wrong ?

2) Quran is not a book from God

Again I agree seeing the contradictions and errors but I have same questions why you are interested in errors so much ? We Hindu have a proverb :-
"Don't ask the religion of a saint (scholar) but please ask for his knowledge". You all are highly educated persons to get what this proverb says. So as just one error disqualifies Quran from being it God's speech, in same manner just one good teaching in Quran makes it a good book to read (it is how I think). I am interested to know that why you are pointing errors so much and using your best efforts to prove it not from God but you could make half of this in gaining the good points of Quran then you dont feel that this book will get a place in your book-shelf ? I mean when it says for charity, peace, love then it is surely talking about humanity. Plz note that it is a book and not going to advise you how you need to take it, it depends on reader what he/she wants to learn from a book. It is same as accepting the rose and plucking it thrones. If one will scream for it thrones then surely he ll miss an important flower on earth. Again same is true for lotus, disregard the mud around it but it doesn't make the lotus itself as a disregarding thing. And as per my knowledge we all (general sense) accept rose and lotus as beautiful flowers with their scent. Same, why you cant judge the Quran ? I saw that at most of the places it teaches us misguiding thing but at few points it is good too (you all are more knowledgeable of Quran so plz correct me if I am wrong). Just one good line of a book qualifies itself to be read, not it ?
As Quran can't advise you literally or orally then it depends on the readers logic that what he/she thinks good and what bad. It is very simple process that we can use our logic (or say the GOLDEN RULE) and filter the misguiding things and practice the good things. Is it so tedious that you are using your time and efforts to prove a book not from God ?
To clear my self I want to tell you all story (I know you all are aware of this story yet I will tell)

"One day a hare was bragging about how fast he could run. The tortoise stretched out his long neck and challenged the hare to a race, which, of course, made the hare laugh. A race, indeed, a race. Oh! what fun! My, my! a race, of course, Mr. Tortoise, we shall race! said the hare.
The forest animals met and mapped out the course. The race begun, and the hare, being such a swift runner, soon left the tortoise far behind. About halfway through the course, it occurred to the hare that he had plenty of time to beat the slow trodden tortoise.

"Oh, my!" thought the hare, "I have plenty of time to play in the meadow here."
And so he did.

After the hare finished playing, he decided that he had time to take a little nap.
"I have plenty of time to beat that tortoise," he thought. And he cuddle up against a tree and dozed.

The tortoise, in the meantime, continued to plod on, albeit, it ever so slowly. He never stopped, but took one good step after another.
The hare finally woke from his nap. "Time to get going," he thought. And off he went faster than he had ever run before! He dashed as quickly as anyone ever could up to the finish line, where he met the tortoise, who was patiently awaiting his arrival."

Thanks to bear me with the old story now as a kids place I can observe this story in 2 ways :-

1) I like to be a hare (due to his power) and will say that "ahh! so this story teaches us to take rest between works too and don't work continuously even some fools work day and night to make you lose".

2) Or the same as you wise personas takes it as "don't stop till the goal is reached".

But non of these observations can make this story valuable or not. It depends on us how we apply our logic and what we want actually to grasp by filtering the impurities. Another example of daily life is that we all purifies water before drink. Ohh! or you scholars disqualifies water at 1st because it is not pure to drink ? May be you can do so but most of scientist (who ?) filters water and drink and suggests whole worlds to do so.

How simple it is, not it?

And at last I am very sorry if my opinion hurt you (specially Mr. Sina) and also for my poor english.

Thanks to read me

[sum]

Hello Amanalice

A very warm welcome to FFI.

I regard Islam as a cancer on the whole of mankind affecting both muslims and non-muslims alike. It is a man-made, self perpetuating psychiatric disorder which creates hate and division in society. It is spreading and no government or politician anywhere is lifting a finger to stop it. Islam is the only religion based on the legal inequality of mankind where non-muslims do not have the same legal rights as muslims. Muslim women do not have the same legal rights as muslim men. Islam only survives because of very significant indoctrination from birth onwards so that the mind can only function in one direction - the Islamic way. Fear is the other controlling factor both in this life and in the next life. Once Islam controls a country sharia is established and this inhuman legal system can never be challenged. It is there for all time as the public can never challenge it because that would constitute blasphemy for which the penalty is death. Islam is mind control and suffocates the human freethinking spirit. It will be the death of civilisation as we know it - in perpetuity. Each generation indoctrinates the next and there is no break in the cycle.

All you have to do is be aware of events in the world to see what Islam does to society. Just look at the events surrounding the Hindu Babri temple. The muslims will fight in any way possible to gain control of it once again. Read about the Pact of Umar and observe it being put into practice in the muslims countries. Do you think that a muslim country would permit the building of a Hindu temple? Do you think that they should? Who can you appeal to in such a case?

The purpose of FFI is to draw the attention of as many people as possible to the great danger and threat of Islam so that more and more people rise up against it and hopefully it will be defeated to the benefit of all mankind.

Islam is irreversible short of warfare.

sum

[skynightblaze]

1) Mohammad was not a prophet
Yes i also got it well and found same as Mr. Ali said but why you are interested in a looters life so much ? I mean ok he was a criminal minded, lustful man but so what ? Don't follow him. How simple it is, not it ? Why to waste so much resources and time to prove him wrong ?

It is not so simple as you think. Sina and others debunk every single detail about Muhammad because muslims follow Muhammad on every single minute detail. Muslims believe that Muhammad was the most perfect man to walk on earth. This site is mainly for muslims to realize dangers of islam and thereby save themselves from committing horrendous crimes which they might commit due to following islam.

If muslims are not educated about every single detail of Muhamamd they may end up blindly following him which is very dangerous. Just to give you an example .. Many under age girls are sexually abused by muslim men because they follow muhammad's example. Therefore every single detail about Muhammad needs to be exposed. This site is also for non muslims to be aware of islam so that they too dont fall for islam and become victims of this cult of death and hate.

2) Quran is not a book from God
Again I agree seeing the contradictions and errors but I have same questions why you are interested in errors so much ? We Hindu have a proverb :-
"Don't ask the religion of a saint (scholar) but please ask for his knowledge". You all are highly educated persons to get what this proverb says. So as just one error disqualifies Quran from being it God's speech, in same manner just one good teaching in Quran makes it a good book to read (it is how I think).

One good teaching does not make a book a good book. Islam sanctions the following:

1) Hatred for disbelievers2) Slavery 3)Raping prisoners of war 4) Torturing prisoners of war
5) Lying to non muslims 6) Killing non muslims if they refuse to accept islam 7) Paedophilia, looting etc

Drawing conclusions based on one or two good teachings about a book is a fallacious. You must judge the book as a whole and quran is bad as a whole. This is similar to claiming that all the hindus are terrorists just because one hindu blew a bomb in the name of hinduism.

I am interested to know that why you are pointing errors so much and using your best efforts to prove it not from God but you could make half of this in gaining the good points of Quran then you dont feel that this book will get a place in your book-shelf ? I mean when it says for charity, peace, love then it is surely talking about humanity. Plz note that it is a book and not going to advise you how you need to take it, it depends on reader what he/she wants to learn from a book. It is same as accepting the rose and plucking it thrones. If one will scream for it thrones then surely he ll miss an important flower on earth. Again same is true for lotus, disregard the mud around it but it doesn't make the lotus itself as a disregarding thing. And as per my knowledge we all (general sense) accept rose and lotus as beautiful flowers with their scent. Same, why you cant judge the Quran ?

I saw that at most of the places it teaches us misguiding thing but at few points it is good too (you all are more knowledgeable of Quran so plz correct me if I am wrong). Just one good line of a book qualifies itself to be read, not it ?

You perhaps fail to understand that the reason why we stand so firmly against quran is because muslims do not use the methodology prescribed by you i.e pick the best and reject the rest. They take every single word of the quran to be holy . That is where the problem starts. Not only do they take the word of quran seriously they act according to it. Therefore it is necessary that we attack every single word of islam so that muslims and non muslims (both) are aware of this dangerous lie. If muslims had kept their religion to themselves we would not bother to debunk quran.

As far as good point of the quran are concerned they are a matter of common sense. I was not required to read quran to know anything that I previously did not know.

Btw the charity, peace and love does not apply to non muslims. It only applies to muslims. Show me where islam says love a non muslim and be at peace with him or give him charity if he needs??

I can quote plenty of examples to prove that rules for non muslims are different for e.g islam asks you to respect your parents however you are not supposed to take them as your helpers if they love infidelity above faith. So you see islam discriminates between muslims and non muslims.

Thanks to bear me with the old story now as a kids place I can observe this story in 2 ways :-

1) I like to be a hare (due to his power) and will say that "ahh! so this story teaches us to take rest between works too and don't work continuously even some fools work day and night to make you lose".

2) Or the same as you wise personas takes it as "don't stop till the goal is reached".

But non of these observations can make this story valuable or not. It depends on us how we apply our logic and what we want actually to grasp by filtering the impurities. Another example of daily life is that we all purifies water before drink. Ohh! or you scholars disqualifies water at 1st because it is not pure to drink ? May be you can do so but most of scientist (who ?) filters water and drink and suggests whole worlds to do so.
How simple it is, not it?
And at last I am very sorry if my opinion hurt you (specially Mr. Sina) and also for my poor english.

Thanks to read me

Again you have absolutely no clue about how muslims take islam. It is not the question of we following islam. We do not debunk islam just because we find so many problems with it. We debunk islam because muslims follow every single word of it and are creating problems across the world.If muslims would have kept their religion to themselves we would not even have this site.

Anyway i am an Indian too (but an atheist) and I support this site fully . Hindus like you do not understand the serious threats that islam possesses and that is why when someone tries to tell you evils of islam , you go into a mode of defending islam. I myself have experienced this many times. I feel sorry for countrymen like you who cannot even recognize the real enemy.

All you got to do is read the islamic invasion of India by Mughals. You will realize why there is a need for a site and why islam should be attacked on every front.

[Amanalice]

It is not so simple as you think. Sina and others debunk every single detail about Muhammad because muslims follow Muhammad on every single minute detail. Muslims believe that Muhammad was the most perfect man to walk on earth. This site is mainly for muslims to realize dangers of islam and thereby save themselves from committing horrendous crimes which they might commit due to following islam.

If muslims are not educated about every single detail of Muhamamd they may end up blindly following him which is very dangerous. Just to give you an example .. Many under age girls are sexually abused by muslim men because they follow muhammad's example. Therefore every single detail about Muhammad needs to be exposed. This site is also for non muslims to be aware of islam so that they too dont fall for islam and become victims of this cult of death and hate.

It is not fair because I have seen many times that when some one from muslims talk about peace, Mr. Sina says that they are not muslims, coz you either pregnant or not. So if few muslims try to use filter type mind then it is you humiliate them saying they are not muslims. First you want them to be muslims word to word with Quran then says they are terrorist, and when they apply mind and filter impurities, its you again to say they are not muslims. Excuse me but again your aim is not clear for me. Errors are in all of the holy books in any religion, talk about Bible or even Mahabharta, so why you dont do anything against these religion ? Coz you say that these pepople dont follow books word by words and when muslims try to do same then you call them "moderate muslims", so ask your self what you want and what is your goal.

One good teaching does not make a book a good book. Islam sanctions the following:

1) Hatred for disbelievers2) Slavery 3)Raping prisoners of war 4) Torturing prisoners of war
5) Lying to non muslims 6) Killing non muslims if they refuse to accept islam 7) Paedophilia, looting etc

Drawing conclusions based on one or two good teachings about a book is a fallacious. You must judge the book as a whole and quran is bad as a whole. This is similar to claiming that all the hindus are terrorists just because one hindu blew a bomb in the name of hinduism.

Again not fair with "moderate mulims". Most of the Hindus (I am talking about my own religion) cant follow what Mahabharta or Ramayana says word by word. Being a Hindu, I guess you know what impurities talking about. So if we can be "moderate Hindus", then why muslims cant be "moderate muslims" ?

You perhaps fail to understand that the reason why we stand so firmly against quran is because muslims do not use the methodology prescribed by you i.e pick the best and reject the rest. They take every single word of the quran to be holy . That is where the problem starts. Not only do they take the word of quran seriously they act according to it. Therefore it is necessary that we attack every single word of islam so that muslims and non muslims (both) are aware of this dangerous lie. If muslims had kept their religion to themselves we would not bother to debunk quran.

How you can say that ? Being in country full of muslims, I have personal relations with many of muslims who dont follow Quran word by word. They are peaceful, loving and kind persons (as you say moderate muslims).

Again you have absolutely no clue about how muslims take islam. It is not the question of we following islam. We do not debunk islam just because we find so many problems with it. We debunk islam because muslims follow every single word of it and are creating problems across the world.If muslims would have kept their religion to themselves we would not even have this site.

Again I will say same that when muslims try to be peaceful, you all started saying that there is nothing like "moderate muslims" (I know personally peaceful muslims). Most of the Christians, Hindus are moderate seeing the words in their holy books, so why muslims can't be moderate ? Double standard again and again.

Anyway i am an Indian too (but an atheist) and I support this site fully . Hindus like you do not understand the serious threats that islam possesses and that is why when someone tries to tell you evils of islam , you go into a mode of defending islam. I myself have experienced this many times. I feel sorry for countrymen like you who cannot even recognize the real enemy.

Nothing to say more, you are applying double standard for muslims. And for your kind information, I am not defending muslims for Quran or Muhammad but for a peaceful humanity.

All you got to do is read the islamic invasion of India by Mughals. You will realize why there is a need for a site and why islam should be attacked on every front

Seeing history you cant judge modern environment. If you believe in revenge then that has nothing to do with muslims or Quran. But if you are a peaceful persons then you must try make muslims moderate as Hindu, or Christians are.

Thank you

[Idesigner]

"Don't ask the religion of a saint (scholar) but please ask for his knowledge". You all are highly educated persons to get what this proverb says. So as just one error disqualifies Quran from being it God's speech, in same manner just one good teaching in Quran makes it a good book to read (it is how I think). I am interested to know that why you are pointing errors so much and using your best efforts to prove it not from God but you could make half of this in gaining the good points of Quran then you dont feel that this book will get a place in your book-shelf ? I mean when it says for charity, peace, love then it is surely talking about humanity. Plz note that it is a book and not going to advise you how you need to take it, it depends on reader what he/she wants to learn from a book. It is same as accepting the rose and plucking it thrones. If one will scream for it thrones then surely he ll miss an important flower on earth. Again same is true for lotus, disregard the mud around it but it doesn't make the lotus itself as a disregarding thing. And as per my knowledge we all (general sense) accept rose and lotus as beautiful flowers with their scent. Same, why you cant judge the Quran ? I saw that at most of the places it teaches us misguiding thing but at few points it is good too (you all are more knowledgeable of Quran so plz correct me if I am wrong). Just one good line of a book qualifies itself to be read, not it ?

Dear Aman,

Welcome to FFI.


You called Mahabharat a hindu religoius book. Its an epic which contains Gita which is one of the hindu religious book.where as another epic Ramayan is accorded a status of religious book. Other religious books on which Hindu faith rests are Vedas, Vedant, Upnishadas and last but very important are all Purans on which whole Bhakti philosophy of modern hinduism rests. Ofcourse none of the religious books are from god. Some hindu books have great philosophies other makes people ignorant and superstitious especially books about giving money to brahmins and earning merit points.

We dont deny that Koran doesnot have any moral preaching or any beautiful prayers in form of superb poetry of Arabic language. If we collect all of them it can be reduced to thin skiny book. Rest is all down right cursing , ranting and raving of mad man thretening unbelievers, talking about eternal punishment, burning in the hell. Only moron will believe about threats and punsihments.

You seem to have pretty naive approahc so far understanding philosophy of any religion is concerned. You advise us to see only good things in any religion and discard rest. Our approach here is to look critically at philosophy of all religions whether it is Islam, Hinduism or christianity. Look if new religions brought by foreigners , conquestador or charltons is not out to deceive us or is destructive to the fabric of civilization. You have no idea how Iran lost its culture and religion by not understanding how Islam worked. See how backward is Iran now instead of its once brilliant civilization. Once Islam gets upper hand all other philosophies are crushed.

Hindus and India paid terrible price by not understanding Islam and by trying to accomodate Islam. See what sufism did to India.It was a slow poison. First hindus became sufis and later they switched to main stream islam. . Hindus worship rotten bones of Maula Salim Chistis and other fanatic sufis.Now they worship that Iraqui muslim Saibaba without understanding who he was and what he actually did or what was the redeeming value of his philosophy.

India lost half of its territory because it didnot understand islam and tried to compromise and coexists with islam.If our forfathers had studied each and every sura of Koran, Islam would not have gain lots of followers in India.Naive thinking like all religions are good and are founded by selfless noble creatures had made life miserable for people of India.

[sum]

Hello Amanalice

Your quote -
It is not fair because I have seen many times that when some one from muslims talk about peace, Mr. Sina says that they are not muslims,

Have you read the Koran? It actually tells muslims that they must fight until all religion is for Allah. It tells you that the earth belongs to Allah and muslims. It tells you that muslims will gradually reduce the borders of non-muslim countries. Have you not witnessed or read that there are no-go areas springing up all over where non-muslim fear to go because of the violence of muslims? The Koran is being played out under your very nose. Is not the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh an example of muslims taking over land? Did all the muslims in India go to live in these two countries? No they did not. Why? Because those that remained in India became the nucleus for more expansion of Islam. When muslims become dominant they establish sharia as the legal system which can never again be repealed. To suggest changes would be regarded as blasphemy and the penalty is death.

The only peaceful muslim is one who is either ignorant of Islam or one who prefers to wage war against the non-muslim through means other than violence. The long term aim is just the same. Do you think that Hindus should be able to build temples in Islamic countries? Muslims forbid it and there is nothing you can do about it. You did not comment on the Babri temple/mosque/temple. Please comment.

Peace can only exist in Islam when Islam has become dominant andIslamic laws (sharia) are in place. So when muslims say they want peace they are really saying that they want Islamic dominance where the sharia will create legal inequality where non-muslims do not have legal equality with muslims and have an inferior status in society. Do you defend this or are you critical of this.

You must understand that muslims are not free to pick and choose from the Koranic guidance. Muslims are told by the Koran that they must accept everything that is in the Koran. To reject anything renders one an apostate for which the penalty is death. Do you support this? Do you support free speech because Islam does not. Islam is total mind control. Do you want this? The Hindu religion will gradually be squeezed out of existance just as it has been, along with Buddhism, in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Do you want this? This is just one example of what will happen over thewhole of the planet unless Islam is stopped.

Have you read the history of the invasion of India by the muslim hordes where there were massacres on a scale unmatched anywhere. Hindu temples were destroyed and mosques built. Millions of women and children were taken to the ME as sex slaves and slaves. Even the Pakistan military raped about a quarter of a million Bangladeshi women.

How you defend Islam is beyond me. Is has brought absolutely nothing good for mankind and has stopped science and medicine and invention in its tracks. Just look at what advances the non-muslims nations have made and there is absolutely nothing that the Islamic countries have brought. That is Islam for you. Thedestroying of the free thinking mind. Bo you defend this?

sum

[Idesigner]

Dear SNB,

Amanalice can be from india but he doenot seem Hindu to me.

The defence of Koran and Islam is dead giveaway.

Id.

[skynightblaze]

Dear SNB,

Amanalice can be from india but he doenot seem Hindu to me.

The defence of Koran and Islam is dead giveaway.

Id.

I have experience in the past with such stupid hindus. They defend islam vigorously so much that not even a muslim would do that and too when they dont know a jackshit about islam. I am therefore unable to make a decision about this person. There are many hindus who think like this person however there are also people who are intelligent enough to see the problems with islam when shown. What irks me the most is when non muslims defend islam and therefore I am harsh with such people.

[Amanalice]

You twice called Mahabharat a hindu religoius book. Its an epic which contains Gita which is one of the hindu religious book.Ofcourse another epic Ramayan can be called a religious book. Other religious books on which Hindu faith rests are Vedas, Vedant, Upnishadas and last but very important are all Purans on which whole Bhakti philosophy of modern hinduism rests. Ofcourse none of the religious books are from god. Some books have great philosophies other makes people ignorant and superstitious.

Nothing more for me to say when you accepted yourself that many epic can be taken as holy book due to their vast knowledge and message. Vedas and Upnishads, I didnt mention coz I was not trying to count the total number religious books, rather I tried to say that all religious books has errors.

We dont deny that Koran doesnot have any moral preaching or any beautiful prayers in form of superb poetry of Arabic language. If we collect all of them it can be reduced to few pages. Rest is all down right cursing , ranting and raving thretening unbelievers, talking about eternal punishment, burning in the hell. Only moron will believe about threats and punsihments.

Exactly same for Bible and Mahabharta, so why to only probe Quran ? make another site and probe these religion too.

You seem to have prety naive approahc so far understanding philosophy of any religion is concerned. You advise us to see only good things in any religion and discard rest. Our approach is to look critically at philosophy of all religions whether it is Islam, Hinduism or christianity. Look if new religion bought by foreigners , conquestador or charltons is not out to deceive us. You have no idea how Iran lost its culture and religion by not understanding how Islam worked. See how backward is Iran now instead of its once brilliant civilization. Once Islam gets upperhand all other philosophies are crushed.

Yes you are right I am very novice in any religion coz I just follow a humanity and my mind to judge any activity good or bad on a general sense. Criticizing is good thing to gain knowledge but it must be done in a neutral way and same you dont do with any other holy book, do you ?

Hindus and India paid terrible price by not understanding Islam and by trying to accomodate Islam. See what sufism did to India.It was a slow poison. First hindus became sufis and later they switched to Wahabism. Hindus worship rotten bones of Maula Salim Chistis and other fanatic sufis. Till this date they worship muslim Saibaba without understanding who he was and what he actually did or what was the redeeming value of his philosophy.

You have left me in a condition that I need to tell you little about the environment of India. Lets start from my own life :

When I cleared CAT, I got call from many good MBA schools from Mumbai but as I am from Bihar, my family got worried that in Marathis dont behave good with Biharis and at that time this issue was so burning that a boy from bihar captured a bus in mumbai and got encountered by mumbai police. And according to few local knowledgeable persons, Marathi are bad, rude, un-human with North-Indians. Also they blame Siv Sena and MNS.

Again due to elections I got a very good chance to prove my point. Talk about politicians in U.P and Delhi. They all are blaming other party for the poverty, corruption, and all the downfall of U.P to their current governing party.

Now come to main point of Indo-Pak L.O.C war. You all scholars say that it is due to Islam. My friend its not due to Islam, its called politics. All Indian and Pakistanis know that how difficult to live daily life in these countries. They are struggling to get their peace of bread, hell they will fight for religion ? The fight is due to few criminal minded politicians who are trying to make gold with these burning issues.

When it is country's matter their politicians says that the other religion is responsible for all. When it comes to local governing then they say the other party is responsible for all. Here Marathi says North-Indian are bad and North-Indian says Marathis are bad. But actually non of these are bad, but few peoples from both side taking the advantage of this situation and they never let it be settled down.

So you can see easily that its nothing more than few corrupt minds from both sides and it applies to same when it comes to religion war.

Thanks

[skynightblaze]

It is not fair because I have seen many times that when some one from muslims talk about peace, Mr. Sina says that they are not muslims, coz you either pregnant or not. So if few muslims try to use filter type mind then it is you humiliate them saying they are not muslims. First you want them to be muslims word to word with Quran then says they are terrorist, and when they apply mind and filter impurities, its you again to say they are not muslims.

More nonsense from you! You did not understand a single thing that Sina said. When sina says that those muslims who don’t follow islam word to word are not muslims he does not mean that they should follow it word to word. This interpretation of yours is really skewed! He only means to convey that they are not a representative of the islam. The idea is to convey what islam stands for and not to complain about these muslims for not following islam. Show me a single statement from him where he says that he wants muslims to follow islam word to word. Just because there are muslims who love peace it does not mean islam prescribes peace. That is the point being made.

Excuse me but again your aim is not clear for me. Errors are in all of the holy books in any religion, talk about Bible or even Mahabharta, so why you dont do anything against these religion ? Coz you say that these pepople dont follow books word by words and when muslims try to do same then you call them "moderate muslims", so ask your self what you want and what is your goal.

Our aims are really very clear and it is you who does not understand this.
It is true that there are moderate muslims however it is equally true that there are significant number of extremist muslims and they are causing trouble all around the globe however same is not the case with people from other religions. People from other religions have moderates as well as extremists however these extremists are not so extreme as extremist muslims. They might be committing crimes but it is not because of what their religion teaches them. If there are any such non muslims who commit crimes on account of their religious teachings then you can count them on your fingers. I hope you see the difference here between muslims and non muslims.

We don’t have a problem if people believe in erroneous beliefs or fantasies as long as they don’t harm us or shove their beliefs up our throats however Islam prescribes evil things and many muslims follow it and the results are showing.

Just read “Statistics on Domestic Violence in the Muslim world” in the following article. It is just a sample and I can quote plenty of such examples as to show why I am against islam and attack it specifically. Can you show me such statistics about people from other religions? If yes then I will be against them too.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islam

One good teaching does not make a book a good book. Islam sanctions the following:
1) Hatred for disbelievers2) Slavery 3)Raping prisoners of war 4) Torturing prisoners of war
5) Lying to non muslims 6) Killing non muslims if they refuse to accept islam 7) Paedophilia, looting etc
Drawing conclusions based on one or two good teachings about a book is a fallacious. You must judge the book as a whole and quran is bad as a whole. This is similar to claiming that all the hindus are terrorists just because one hindu blew a bomb in the name of hinduism.

Again not fair with "moderate mulims". Most of the Hindus (I am talking about my own religion) cant follow what Mahabharta or Ramayana says word by word. Being a Hindu, I guess you know what impurities talking about. So if we can be "moderate Hindus", then why muslims cant be "moderate muslims”?

You are changing the subject here. You were judging quran by its teachings and you did not mention moderate muslims here. This is simply an attempt at diversion. You claimed that 1 or 2 good teachings makes the quran a good book . This is incorrect and that is what I pointed out.

Anyway I am not against someone being a moderate muslim provided he/she does not bother me with his religion however not every muslim is a moderate one. There are extremists and they are because of teachings of religion and not because of other reasons as in case of extremists from other religions.

You perhaps fail to understand that the reason why we stand so firmly against quran is because muslims do not use the methodology prescribed by you i.e pick the best and reject the rest. They take every single word of the quran to be holy . That is where the problem starts. Not only do they take the word of quran seriously they act according to it. Therefore it is necessary that we attack every single word of islam so that muslims and non muslims (both) are aware of this dangerous lie. If muslims had kept their religion to themselves we would not bother to debunk quran.

How you can say that ? Being in country full of muslims, I have personal relations with many of muslims who dont follow Quran word by word. They are peaceful, loving and kind persons (as you say moderate muslims).

It is my mistake that I failed to clarify that I did not mean ALL the muslims follow islam word to word however many muslims are violent and extremists and that is because of quran and ahadith.

We don’t need every single muslim to be a terrorist. A handful of say 1 lakh extremist muslims out of 1.5 billion are sufficient to blow up this world. The reason for them becoming terrorist is obvious It is because they follow Muhammad word to word and therefore we are against islam. WE do not see people from other religions bombing others for the sake of religion.

Btw how many muslims can you show me who claim that islam prescribes violence and is bad?? They either deny it or are ignorant about it or they simply lie when they talk about it being a religion of peace.

Again you have absolutely no clue about how muslims take islam. It is not the question of we following islam. We do not debunk islam just because we find so many problems with it. We debunk islam because muslims follow every single word of it and are creating problems across the world. If muslims would have kept their religion to themselves we would not even have this site.

Again I will say same that when muslims try to be peaceful, you all started saying that there is nothing like "moderate muslims" (I know personally peaceful muslims). Most of the Christians, Hindus are moderate seeing the words in their holy books, so why muslims can't be moderate ? Double standard again and again.

Again the problem here is that NOT ALL The muslims fit into the category that you want us to fit them in. I also never said that muslims can't be moderate. All I said is muslims follow word to word of quran and ahadith. The only mistake that I did is I failed to clarify that I did not mean to imply ALL THE MUSLIMS follow quran word to word. Muslims can be moderate however it does not mean that islam prescribes peace. You did not understand what Sina said and therefore you are repeating your misunderstanding here.

Anyway i am an Indian too (but an atheist) and I support this site fully . Hindus like you do not understand the serious threats that islam possesses and that is why when someone tries to tell you evils of islam , you go into a mode of defending islam. I myself have experienced this many times. I feel sorry for countrymen like you who cannot even recognize the real enemy.

Nothing to say more, you are applying double standard for muslims. And for your kind information, I am not defending muslims for Quran or Muhammad but for a peaceful humanity.

I accused you of defending islam and not muslims. If you are here for a peaceful humanity then you need to condemn the quran and ahadith or else you are simply a charlatan. They are full of sh!t and violence and are the root cause of all the problems that we (non muslims) and islamic countries face so any sane person who claims to be standing for peaceful humanity cannot call these books as good books however you did call quran a good book and you recommended us keeping it on our shelves which is why I was pissed off.

:All you got to do is read the islamic invasion of India by Mughals. You will realize why there is a need for a site and why islam should be attacked on every front

Seeing history you cant judge modern environment. If you believe in revenge then that has nothing to do with muslims or Quran. But if you are a peaceful persons then you must try make muslims moderate as Hindu, or Christians are.

You can learn from history because history can repeat itself (though it is not necessary that it will). Islam started with 3-4 people and today it has 1.5 billion followers and a significant amount of them were converted by sword. This should tell you something. Even today history is repeating itself . Stoning, killing the kafirs, hating them, forced conversions , paedophilia ,terrorism etc are happening today. I learned history and I am seeing the history repeating itself so why should I not be against islam?

[Amanalice]

I have experience in the past with such stupid hindus. They defend islam vigorously so much that not even a muslim would do that and too when they dont know a jackshit about islam. I am therefore unable to make a decision about this person. There are many hindus who think like this person however there are also people who are intelligent enough to see the problems with islam when shown. What irks me the most is when non muslims defend islam and therefore I am harsh with
such people.

From your first reply I thought you are knowledgeable person to talk to and surely your are not muslim but your this comment made me to rethink about you coz as you started abusing me and many hindus in vain, it looks you are following Quran by heart. Good luck with this attitude.

[skynightblaze]

I have experience in the past with such stupid hindus. They defend islam vigorously so much that not even a muslim would do that and too when they dont know a jackshit about islam. I am therefore unable to make a decision about this person. There are many hindus who think like this person however there are also people who are intelligent enough to see the problems with islam when shown. What irks me the most is when non muslims defend islam and therefore I am harsh with
such people.

From your first reply I thought you are knowledgeable person to talk to and surely your are not muslim but your this comment made me to rethink about you coz as you started abusing me and many hindus in vain, it looks you are following Quran by heart. Good luck with this attitude.

. Ok I apologize for my rudeness however I am sure people who know me for years are going to laugh when you spoke about me being a muslim. Oh btw I am your scapegoat . My mother tongue is coincidentally marathi.

[Amanalice]

. Ok I apologize for my rudeness however I am sure people who know me for years are going to laugh when you spoke about me being a muslim. Oh btw I am your scapegoat . My mother tongue is coincidentally marathi.

Ahh now I got you you are mannerless and great to meet you my Marathi friend. Now how will you describe the war against North Indians started by Siva Sena and MNS ? Interesting to know.

And as much you are interested in smileys, it looks you are an arrogant kid who learnt to play with smileys and emoticons recently. Go ahead and download few smileys software, you will get 100s of emoticons. for a serious talk one must not abuse like you started and not extreme funny mood like you used.

[Idesigner]

.

Amanlice:Nothing more for me to say when you accepted yourself that many epic can be taken as holy book due to their vast knowledge and message. Vedas and Upnishads, I didnt mention coz I was not trying to count the total number religious books, rather I tried to say that all religious books has errors.

Yes we can point out errors, mistakes, discrepancies, impurities in all religious book. We can mock all religious books except Koran. Try to be critical about koran and declare that Koran is not from god and creation of Mohemmed's mind, if you live in India you can get killed. Remember Rushdie,

Amanlice:Exactly same for Bible and Mahabharta, so why to only probe Quran ? make another site and probe these religion too.

There are many sites which probe other religious books. Yoou can go there and contribute. On this site we have a thread called Islam and other religions. There people do talk about other religious books.

Mision of FFI is to fight and expose Islam,their double talk. They talk peace to deceive us but vast majority practice and believe in Jihad.

.

Yes you are right I am very novice in any religion coz I just follow a humanity and my mind to judge any activity good or bad on a general sense. Criticizing is good thing to gain knowledge but it must be done in a neutral way and same you dont do with any other holy book, do you ?

I dont know what you mean by neutral way of criticizing.As victims of islam we cant remain neutral. By the way for muslims any criticism of Allah, Prophet and Koran is blasphamy. The day they stay neutral, I will be neutral too.

.

Amanlice:You have left me in a condition that I need to tell you little about the environment of India. Lets start from my own life :

When I cleared CAT, I got call from many good MBA schools from Mumbai but as I am from Bihar, my family got worried that in Marathis dont behave good with Biharis and at that time this issue was so burning that a boy from bihar captured a bus in mumbai and got encountered by mumbai police. And according to few local knowledgeable persons, Marathi are bad, rude, un-human with North-Indians. Also they blame Siv Sena and MNS.

Again due to elections I got a very good chance to prove my point. Talk about politicians in U.P and Delhi. They all are blaming other party for the poverty, corruption, and all the downfall of U.P to their current governing party.

Now come to main point of Indo-Pak L.O.C war. You all scholars say that it is due to Islam. My friend its not due to Islam, its called politics. All Indian and Pakistanis know that how difficult to live daily life in these countries. They are struggling to get their peace of bread, hell they will fight for religion ? The fight is due to few criminal minded politicians who are trying to make gold with these burning issues.

When it is country's matter their politicians says that the other religion is responsible for all. When it comes to local governing then they say the other party is responsible for all. Here Marathi says North-Indian are bad and North-Indian says Marathis are bad. But actually non of these are bad, but few peoples from both side taking the advantage of this situation and they never let it be settled down.

So you can see easily that its nothing more than few corrupt minds from both sides and it applies to same when it comes to religion war.

Thanks

You are now changing topic. We can discuss shivsena and internal politics of India in other appropriate thread of FFI.

Sure we can discuss LOC and Kargil war as it concerns Pakistan and its religion. The was has nothing to do with any politics it has everything to do with Islam. Even well known generals from Pakistan have admitted that they started all wars with India. Muslims never let go a land which they once occupied.If Pakistan was not a muslim country , India would have worked out peaceful solution about Kashmir log time ago. Do you know that according to Koran even a land which was occupied even for a day by muslims is Dare E Slam. It should go back to muslims. Days are not far when your UP and Bihar will revert to Dareslam if Hindu behave stupidly and keep on appeasing muslims, after all they have 21% population in many districts. Small step for muslims of India big step for Ummah.

[skynightblaze]

. Ok I apologize for my rudeness however I am sure people who know me for years are going to laugh when you spoke about me being a muslim. Oh btw I am your scapegoat . My mother tongue is coincidentally marathi.

Ahh now I got you you are mannerless and great to meet you my Marathi friend. Now how will you describe the war against North Indians started by Siva Sena and MNS ? Interesting to know.

And as much you are interested in smileys, it looks you are an arrogant kid who learnt to play with smileys and emoticons recently. Go ahead and download few smileys software, you will get 100s of emoticons. for a serious talk one must not abuse like you started and not extreme funny mood like you used.

I thought I was harsh on you and that is why I apologized however if you want to continue this game of insults just because my mother tongue is marathi then be my guest. You are a coward who does not have guts to admit that he is wrong. You came here under prepared and your weak arguments were exposed.

As far as your topic relating to MNS and shiv sena are concerned its not relevant to what is being discussed here. Surely I shall debate with you on that issue as well.

[Amanalice]

. Ok I apologize for my rudeness however I am sure people who know me for years are going to laugh when you spoke about me being a muslim. Oh btw I am your scapegoat . My mother tongue is coincidentally marathi.

Ahh now I got you you are mannerless and great to meet you my Marathi friend. Now how will you describe the war against North Indians started by Siva Sena and MNS ? Interesting to know.

And as much you are interested in smileys, it looks you are an arrogant kid who learnt to play with smileys and emoticons recently. Go ahead and download few smileys software, you will get 100s of emoticons. for a serious talk one must not abuse like you started and not extreme funny mood like you used.

I thought I was harsh on you and that is why I apologized however if you want to continue this game of insults just because my mother tongue is marathi then be my guest. You are a coward who does not have guts to admit that he is wrong. You came here under prepared and your weak arguments were exposed.

As far as your topic relating to MNS and shiv sena are concerned its not relevant to what is being discussed here. Surely I shall debate with you on that issue as well.

Let me remind who dat you started this game of abusing..I just pointed you to a similar topic but based on localisation. You started jumping like spring. I didnt even abused you but you started screaming. Be a mature person. If you dont see the similarities between Islam vs Ex-mislim and Marathi vs North Indian then I am not interested in your comments further. And yes you said about game so reminding you dat ven I will come to your level of abusing then you will be not be able even to scream.

[skynightblaze]

Let me remind who dat you started this game of abusing..I just pointed you to a similar topic but based on localisation. You started jumping like spring. I didnt even abused you but you started screaming. Be a mature person. If you dont see the similarities between Islam vs Ex-mislim and Marathi vs North Indian then I am not interested in your comments further. And yes you said about game so reminding you dat ven I will come to your level of abusing then you will be not be able even to scream.

What is the similarity between Ex muslims vs islam and Marathi vs North Indians? Btw I have apologized to you so you should speak properly with me henceforth if you want a dialogue. Your last sentences seemed as threats to me but they do not bother me even the slightest because you do not even know how to threaten people.

[Amanalice]

Let me remind who dat you started this game of abusing..I just pointed you to a similar topic but based on localisation. You started jumping like spring. I didnt even abused you but you started screaming. Be a mature person. If you dont see the similarities between Islam vs Ex-mislim and Marathi vs North Indian then I am not interested in your comments further. And yes you said about game so reminding you dat ven I will come to your level of abusing then you will be not be able even to scream.

What is the similarity between Ex muslims vs islam and Marathi vs North Indians? Btw I have apologized to you so you should speak properly with me henceforth if you want a dialogue. Your last sentences seemed as threats to me but they do not bother me even the slightest because you do not even know how to threaten people.

Yes it was not threatening but advice. And now about similarities. Similarity is that at both sides only innocent people are being burnt in hate and fight etc..and at both sides few dirty politicians (or authorities) are cutting gold of this situation. Same applies with Islam and Ex-Muslims. Both side the poor, innocent peoples are dying due the situation created by these few criminal and dirty minds. Innocent people pays and these politicians get profit. They dont care who got killed or whos home got smashed. They just blow any issue time to time and let the poor people fight n die so can make profit and advantage. You must need to see this if you can judge well.

[yeezevee]

Hello all,

I am new here so let me introduce my self a little. I am Phd student from India (i know you can track my IP). As per as my religion concerns I am Hindu by birth but due to my own free thinking made me not to believe in any misguiding thing in my holy books (Mahabharta, Geeta, Ramayana etc..). Further more I have 2 best friends (as brothers) from Muslim religion and my fiance is a Christian. So I respect all religions as I know them personally and not how they are in books (thanks to your site that told me about Quran in a different light than what I had heard till date).

Now, going to my main reason for this topic. I felt and clearly it is visible (according to the verses) that all the charges of Mr. Ali are true and no any defender could defend the Quran in a scientific and logical manner. I also felt that Muhammad was sure not a prophet due the life he lived and the verses according to his present situations showed only how he was smart (more like foolish) as he shifted his tone and complete living style when he wanted to do so. From sex lust to loot, every time he blamed Allah for his deeds and revealed a verse.

I also saw the errors Mr. Ali and all scholars here posted about Quran. Yes they are not only errors but they are like joke for many things (splitting moon etc..), But one second thought what you all wants to prove by this ? Let me list few things you wanted (as per my thinking ) :-

1) Mohammad was not a prophet

2) Quran is not a book from God

This is what I got all, I am sorry if you have any different motive and if any then please inform me same.

Now about the charges we all know (thanks to you and some Ex-Muslims). Please allow me to discuss each of them one by one.

1) Mohammad was not a prophet

Yes i also got it well and found same as Mr. Ali said but why you are interested in a looters life so much ? I mean ok he was a criminal minded, lustful man but so what ? Don't follow him. How simple it is, not it ? Why to waste so much resources and time to prove him wrong ?

2) Quran is not a book from God

.................................................................
And at last I am very sorry if my opinion hurt you (specially Mr. Sina) and also for my poor english.

Thanks to read me

how are you doing Amanalice., I am glad to read few posts from a highly qualified person who is working for Doctoral degree., Well you being hindu guy you must have read more of your hindu scriptures than Islamic religious books such as Quran, Hadith, Sunnah and Islamic history.. Please read more on that subject of Islam from FFI articles and original books on Islam.

You may not know but Alis Sina hardly visits and writes in to this forum, and he has not written in to this forum for the past 2 years, so he will not read your posts., He is busy with his own site at http://alisina.org/setting-muslims-free/ ., if you would like to read more his articles in detail please read it from this linkhttp://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm ..

Again I am glad to read you. , you do have some points that need to be addressed and they will be in time., ., Again welcome to FFI and let your friends and well wishers know about a forum like this..

with best wishes
yeezevee

[skynightblaze]

Yes it was not threatening but advice. And now about similarities. Similarity is that at both sides only innocent people are being burnt in hate and fight etc..and at both sides few dirty politicians (or authorities) are cutting gold of this situation. Same applies with Islam and Ex-Muslims. Both side the poor, innocent peoples are dying due the situation created by these few criminal and dirty minds. Innocent people pays and these politicians get profit. They dont care who got killed or whos home got smashed. They just blow any issue time to time and let the poor people fight n die so can make profit and advantage. You must need to see this if you can judge well.

Ok I take your word that it was not a threat.

Coming to the point, What you said is true about marathi vs north Indians issue however it is not true about islam vs ex muslims issue. I think you meant muslims here and not ex-muslims. Ex muslims are those who have renounced islam because they found it to be false.

Now what I don't understand is how can you blame the politicians for what muslims do? Sure not all the muslims are involved in terrorism or other malicious activities but many of them are involved . If you read the islamic scriptures you understand that these extremists are merely following Muhammad - the founder of islam. So the real blame is upon islam as well as extremists and not innocent people or even politicians.