The gods have let me down.

[sum]

I do not believe in god or gods. I am told that they have left messages for mankind by sending prophets but the messages are far from convincing to me. How on earth am I supposed to decide if there is only one god or more than one god? Even if there is only one god which one is it and how do I decide? If there are several gods are they in the same team or, if not, how do I choose the correct one?

Any god that exists and has sent messages knows full well what will be believed and, also, what will not be regarded by others as convincing. This is extremely unfair and with the alleged threat of a painful doom to those who do not follow the right decision makes me regard the god as a sadist.

Isn`t it time for god to reveal him/herself to the world in a way that convinces everyone? Why is god being devious and knowingly causing mischief in the land?

sum

[CuteCoot]

Why is god being devious and knowingly causing mischief in the land?

An excellent question!

I recommend that you watch this video, it's 20 mins long but well worth every minute: Elizabeth Gilbert on nurturing creativity. If you persevere as far as to 15 mins into the video you will even find a reference to Allah.

When you've finished watching the video, you might try following the speaker's advice and pose your question to god directly. Then maybe write down what comes of that. And then share if it feels like a good thing to do.

[sum]

Hello CuteCoot

I watched the video. I asked god the question but he/she ignored me and it therefore gave me the impression that the god wanted to continue with the unconvincing claim, via prophets, that he/she exists and has a guidance for us all. I am left none the wiser and can only conclude that god is playing silly buggers with us.

It was interesting to, perhaps, see some resemblance to Muhammad`s revelations and even suspect that some of the creative people might also have a touch of TLE.

sum

[CuteCoot]

I asked god the question but he/she ignored me ...

Well, in that case, it seems best to return the compliment and simply ignore God back.

[Fathom]

I asked god the question but he/she ignored me ...

Well, in that case, it seems best to return the compliment and simply ignore God back.

Actually, the best thing to do is to forget about this nonsense of any kind of so-called "god" existing at all. The mischief these beliefs have caused throughout the land over the centuries has caused the death of millions upon millions of people, and drastically impeded the advancement of humankind towards a brighter horizon for us all.

The beliefs of religions are not unlike an infectious disease that spreads on a world-wide scale. All that's ever came out of this disease is death, destruction, and utter misery for billions of people both past and present.

It is my hope that someday humankind will become so embarrassed by these harmful beliefs that one by one, each nation around the world will ban the practice of believing in things that defy any ability to determine any truth to them at all.

It is far far better to "know" than it is to "believe."

Stop believing. Start knowing. The beginning of knowledge is at the end of believing.

[CuteCoot]

Stop believing. Start knowing. The beginning of knowledge is at the end of believing.

... lol ... I'm a (neo-)gnostic and fully into knowing ... trouble is I do know that God is the ultimate and most immediate reality. No belief about it. It's far too obvious for that.

[pr126]

Stop believing. Start knowing. The beginning of knowledge is at the end of believing.

... lol ... I'm a (neo-)gnostic and fully into knowing ... trouble is I do know that God is the ultimate and most immediate reality. No belief about it. It's far too obvious for that.

Such certitude! Or is it blind faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Not applicable if you are a Muslim.)

[CuteCoot]

Such certitude! Or is it blind faith?

Yeah, yeah, blind faith to you, knowing for me. (Note that knowing and certitude are not identical. Science purports to know but we also all know that there is no certitude in science.)

And we all know that, for you, "the evidence of things not seen" is no evidence at all.

[Methinx]

Yeah, yeah, blind faith to you, knowing for me.

What is a convincing argument for the existence of God?

[pr126]

Yeah, yeah, blind faith to you, knowing for me.

What is a convincing argument for the existence of God?

You got to be kidding.

[CuteCoot]

What is a convincing argument for the existence of God?

There isn't one.

[Methinx]

What is a convincing argument for the existence of God?

There isn't one.

I didn't think there was one.

When you say: I do know that God is the ultimate and most immediate reality. No belief about it. It's far too obvious for that.

How do you know, intuition, 6th sense?

[Sten]

What is a convincing argument for the existence of God?

There isn't one.

If it's so obvious that god is the most immediate reality, then there should be a convincing argument in favour of it. You can't claim that something is obvious and then immediately afterwards claim that there is no argument to support it. That's totally illogical. Things that are obvious have obvious arguments in their favour.

[CuteCoot]

How do you know, intuition, 6th sense?

I think "experience" is the best way to describe it, though I'd have to admit that that word is inadequate. It's what you experience when you stop noticing that you're experiencing anything. It's what you hear when you stop chatting to yourself inside your mind. It's what you see when you cease being distracted by the visual world around you. But even all of those descriptions are inadequate because they themselves are chat.

[CuteCoot]

If it's so obvious that god is the most immediate reality, then there should be a convincing argument in favour of it.

Why?

You can't claim that something is obvious and then immediately afterwards claim that there is no argument to support it. That's totally illogical. Things that are obvious have obvious arguments in their favour.

That I appear to you to be illogical is not a logical proof of my illogicality. To me, it seems to be logical that an obvious thing would not require anything further. All that we know is that it is obvious to me but not obvious to you.

You either experience or "know" God's immediate reality or you don't. A million intellectual treatises cannot replace the experience. It is not something you can impart to another. If two people "know" God they can talk about it together. Usually they don't talk at all, they just enjoy each other's company in silence. But if they do talk then they tend to say incomprehensible and paradoxical things that intellectuals despise because it is "mystical" and ... well, seemingly illogical.

[pr126]

CuteCoot wrote:

I think "experience" is the best way to describe it, though I'd have to admit that that word is inadequate.

How about emotion, desire, hope, a feeling what you call an "experience"?
But no proof, because it doesn't need proof!

You KNOW. [your emotions, desires, hopes, feelings].
And that is all you have. Nothing more.

[Methinx]

How do you know, intuition, 6th sense?

I think "experience" is the best way to describe it, though I'd have to admit that that word is inadequate. It's what you experience when you stop noticing that you're experiencing anything. It's what you hear when you stop chatting to yourself inside your mind. It's what you see when you cease being distracted by the visual world around you. But even all of those descriptions are inadequate because they themselves are chat.

An interesting response CuteCoot,
I believe I have also been experienced but I am not sure I can trust myself.

From the book of Pragma:
Fragments of the True Book are sometimes stumbled upon by lucky people: geeks, seers, lunatics, gold diggers, plain thinkers and visionaries but when they come to describe their experience to others they unfortunately cloak their wonder in too much vanity and importance so that the Book's Words remain Invisible.

From Giambattista Vico (pbuh) :
The creative power of the mind is particularly evident in the force of the imagination which makes human nature Godlike. It is imagination that creates 'maiorum, minorumque gentium Deos' (the gods of the greater and lesser gentes)

From Shakespeare (ever a kool dude):
Act 3 Scene I

CuteCoot
        'I can call spirits from the vasty deep.'
Methinx
         'Why, so can I, or so can any man;
         But will they come when you do call for them?'
 
I am not sure I can believe you, I say this without any malice, ...and what is the point of a god that is intimate, that you cannot share or communicate?
it is a bit like promising a fantastic joke and then confessing having forgotten how it goes.

But thanks for talking to me, I realize these are delicate, personal affairs.

[Sten]

To me, it seems to be logical that an obvious thing would not require anything further.

It would not require anything further than an obvious explanation. You cannot say "this is obvious" without explaining why it is obvious.

You either experience or "know" God's immediate reality or you don't. A million intellectual treatises cannot replace the experience. It is not something you can impart to another. If two people "know" God they can talk about it together. Usually they don't talk at all, they just enjoy each other's company in silence. But if they do talk then they tend to say incomprehensible and paradoxical things that intellectuals despise because it is "mystical" and ... well, seemingly illogical.

That's very nice, but it doesn't address the fact that you claimed something was obvious when it actually isn't. I have had experiences on LSD that seemed to reveal the innermost workings of the universe and all interconnected reality. It felt like I understood the secrets of existence. However I would not dream of claiming that I "know" these things, because that road brings us to the equal validity of all unfalsifiable claims. Simply put, your "obvious knowledge" is just as valid as someone else's "obvious knowledge" that might totally contradict what you say. You can't both "know", because knowledge is about truth, and there can only be one version of the truth.

You are trying to redefine knowledge to include your personal beliefs. You don't know god, you believe it. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

[CuteCoot]

And that is all you have. Nothing more.

And what do you have?

Yes, I have emotions but my "experience" of the divine is different from that. It is not a feeling or emotion, it is simply an experience of the divine. That's all.

I'm a mathematician and I can experience "the reality" of abstract entities like "two-ness". There is no emotion in that. It is pure experience. And what I "see" is obvious. No logical argument or "proof" needed. It's just plain to "see" with the inner eye.

[CuteCoot]

...and what is the point of a god that is intimate, that you cannot share or communicate?
it is a bit like promising a fantastic joke and then confessing having forgotten how it goes.

The God is indeed intimate (Qur'an 5:16) and the experience cannot be imparted. If you are in love, how can you "impart" that? But everyone is capable of being in love, everyone is capable of the same experience. So it is not something that cannot be shared or communicated. It just cannot be shared or communicated with someone who hasn't had the experience or - more likely - has indeed had the experience but is too shy to share or communicate it. Because we look like fools when we admit that we are - or even have been - in love.

...

"People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive."
— Joseph Campbell (The Power of Myth)

"Life is like arriving late for a movie, having to figure out what was going on without bothering everybody with a lot of questions, and then being unexpectedly called away before you find out how it ends."
— Joseph Campbell (Creative Mythology: The Masks of God 4)