Who was Haman

[The Cat]

Dahaha specifically refers to the action of a mother ostrich where she spreads out the dirt to form a pit for her egg and then stamps on the remaining to flatten it. And it is only mentioned in 79:30, not elsewhere..... Brackets are not always wrong. Yusuf Ali sought to portray the clearest meaning possible... Spreading something out invariably leads to making it more flat. It certainly doesn't make it more round. There's no mention of hospitality at all or else it would say so.... Yes, habitable and safe because it was thought to originally be round like the moon and sun but Allah flattened it out so we wouldn't fall off. It's pretty obvious.... How come Shakir says expanse?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expanse
--A wide and open extent, as of surface, land, or sky.
--Ambit, orbit, surface, space, breadth, etc.

Again, Yusuf Ali is ALONE in his figurative 'carpet'. He wouldn't be so if it was ''the clearest meaning possible''.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/19/default.htm

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spread+out (i.e. Dahaha)
--Diffuse, fan out, string out, set up, dispread, grow, splay, rotate. Nothing about flatness...

Dahaha is only found in 79.30 and never gives the idea of flatness as snb wrongly ascertained...
Yet the Koran contains many synonymous like faraash (51.48), or wasia (29.56), still nothing 'flat'!
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/79/30/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/29/56/default.htm

51.48 confirms the meaning intended in spread out... a smoothed, hospitable, liveable, homy place.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/48/default.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 818AAWpYXV

According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take
from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not
exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].

Now, even 'to flatten' isn't only about flatness...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flatten
--Give shape or form to; change form; alter, change, modify; sharpen; smooth off.

I now ask snb or MbL to prove that Dahaha indicates flatness. A lot of skating expected

[Connedbymo+co]

According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take
from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not
exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].

Many Muslims still cling to the belief that dahaha means an ostrich egg, despite the scientific difficulty this presents in that the earth is an oblate spheroid while the ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid.


Qur'an 18:47
ويوم نسير الجبال وترى الارض بارزة وحشرناهم فلم نغادر منهم احدا

Wayawma nusayyiru aljibala watara al-arda barizatan wahasharnahum falam nughadir minhum ahadan
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.
Qur'an 18:47

In this verse we are told that it's only the mountains which keep the earth from being completely flat.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur%27an

[The Cat]

Hi Connedbymo+co
I'm mainly here to argue over 'dahaha' indicating flatness as snb came with. It's clearly not so...

I don't personally think that Dahaha means so much 'shape like an ostrich-egg' but more about the 'nest' they expand on the ground.

From your link, Edward Lane's Lexicon

1. Daha (., MM_b;,, 1,) first pers. Dahouth aor, yad'hoo inf. N. dahoo He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended (...);
or He (God) made the earth wide, or ample; as explained by an Arab woman of the desert to Sh: (TA : ) also, said of an ostrich,
(S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs: (S, TA : )
and, said of a man, he spread, &c., and made plain, even, or smooth. (TA in art. dhaha ) -(...)

Also He threw, or cast, and impelled, propelled, or removed from its place, a stone, with his hand (TA.)

As for 18.47 I think it's an allegory about when volcanos will 'level' the earth. But, admittedly, a bad rendition of such.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/18/47/default.htm

[iffo]

Sure, let me take the bait and allow you to flip the conversation. Pathetic.

Muhammad bin Lyin
I sure hope he's not coming on to me

I know your type, but sorry to break this to you, I am straight.

Well, you seem pretty twisted to me.

Did not want me to get going on science in Bible ...... ran away as expected ................ and had the guts to complain about Quran ........ by forcing errors in it.............. you been excused ........... see you around

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Did not want me to get going on science in Bible ...... ran away as expected ................ and had the guts to complain about Quran ........ by forcing errors in it.............. you been excused ........... see you around

Reminds me of the lunatic that claims victory after the other guy gets tired of beating him up. But, that's the Muslim way. Lebanon lays in shambles and Hezbollah claims victory. Such desperate, twisted people.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I now ask snb or MbL to prove that Dahaha indicates flatness. A lot of skating expected

Why should I skate?? It means exactly what I said. Here's where I got it from. From Muslims.
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667

The word in question is the verb (dahâ). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Qur’ân in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât: 30]

This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât : 31-32]

Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg an "udhiyy". This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w – the same etymological root as the verb dahâ. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depression where the ostrich deposits its egg.

Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh reprimand.

[skynightblaze]

@CAT

Since you consider sources other than quran as historic sources you should have no problem in accepting the following..

and after that He spread out the earth: He made it flat, for it had been created before the heaven, but without having been spread out;

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo ... nguageId=2

Answering islam quotes Kathir..

Ibn Kathir, in his comments on S. 2:29, reiterates this very point by likening the creation of the heavens and earth to a building:

These Ayat indicate that Allah started creation by creating earth, then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors, as the scholars of Tafsir reiterated, as we will come to know, Allah willing... (Source)

Q. 2:22

WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know. Sher Ali

Commentary:

... who has made the earth AS FLAT and comfortable as a bed and placed upon it mountains standing firm... (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Part 1), Surah Al-Fatihah Surah Al-Baqarah, ayat 1 to 141, abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa’i [Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 1998 second edition], pp. 79-80)


I guess you should have no problem in accepting that quran talks about flat earth..

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/whale_nun.htm

As far as Dahaha is concerned MBL has answered you. I would take that argument that its yusuf ali who translated the verse to include carpet in it however you should have no problem in accepting tafsirs because on the other thread you said you take sources other than quran as historical sources.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

crickets chirping

[iffo]

Did not want me to get going on science in Bible ...... ran away as expected ................ and had the guts to complain about Quran ........ by forcing errors in it.............. you been excused ........... see you around

Reminds me of the lunatic that claims victory after the other guy gets tired of beating him up. But, that's the Muslim way. Lebanon lays in shambles and Hezbollah claims victory. Such desperate, twisted people.

You are the one who ran away with your tail between your legs, so should we talk about bible & science , christian boy?

[The Cat]

Since you consider sources other than quran as historic sources you should have no problem in accepting the following..

So, you're the one who relied on such spurious ground to affirm that Dahaha 'indicates flatness'.
On which you've been proven wrong from the Koran itself (15.19; 79.30; 29.56; 51.48).

Confirmed by Edward Lane's Lexicon (see right above) and yet again in 43.10:

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/43/10/default.htm
Cradle (many); resting-place (Pickhtall, Shakir, some others); bed (many). So 'carpet' must be understood as couch-like floor, carpeted!

As far as Dahaha is concerned MBL has answered you. I would take that argument that its yusuf ali who translated the verse to include carpet in it however you should have no problem in accepting tafsirs because on the other thread you said you take sources other than quran as historical sources.

Just skating around as expected...

The quote of MbL is no more than an opinion, itself never a refutation of anything I came with. Prove me wrong.

Repeating AGAIN (for the XX time) my stance on historical hadiths:

viewtopic.php?p=159349#p159349
Rectification: I reject religious law-binding hadiths, as in the Shariah, but always
maintained that those of historic interest are to be judged on their own values.

You seem to have a problem understanding 'ON THEIR OWN VALUE'. Should we be surprised?

You're but a sophist, throwing deceptions, blindly grabbing anything that suits you and then putting this on me!

More skating expected...

[skynightblaze]

Since you consider sources other than quran as historic sources you should have no problem in accepting the following..

So, you're the one who relied on such spurious ground to affirm that Dahaha 'indicates flatness'.
On which you've been proven wrong from the Koran itself (15.19; 79.30; 29.56; 51.48).

Confirmed by Edward Lane's Lexicon (see right above) and yet again in 43.10

. Daha (., MM_b;,, 1,) first pers. Dahouth aor, yad'hoo inf. N. dahoo He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended (...);
or He (God) made the earth wide, or ample; as explained by an Arab woman of the desert to Sh: (TA : )

When something is SPREAD it doesn't take a round shape you stupid moron! Lane's Lexicon talks about SPREADING OUT OR EXTENDING . Lane's Lexicon is actually confirming what MBL and I have been saying here.

also, said of an ostrich,
(S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs: (S, TA : )
and, said of a man, he spread, &c., and made plain, even, or smooth. (TA in art. dhaha ) -(...)

Even the Lane' s lexicon clearly talks here about a place where ostrich lays it eggs and Ostrich flattens the ground when it lays the eggs and the quran referring to the Dahaha indicates that it termed earth as FLAT PLACE just like the PLACE WHERE OSTRICH LAYS DOWN ITS EGGS.

THis is further confirmed by Lisan Al Arab( from the same wiki islam link)

الأُدْحِيُّ و الإدْحِيُّ و الأُدْحِيَّة و الإدْحِيَّة و الأُدْحُوّة مَبِيض النعام في الرمل , وزنه أُفْعُول من ذلك , لأَن النعامة تَدْحُوه برِجْلها ثم تَبِيض فيه وليس للنعام عُشٌّ . و مَدْحَى النعام : موضع بيضها , و أُدْحِيُّها موضعها الذي تُفَرِّخ فيه .ِ

Translation: Al-udhy, Al-idhy, Al-udhiyya, Al-idhiyya, Al-udhuwwa:The place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg. That's because the ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet then lays its eggs there, an ostrich doesn't have a nest.

You should STFU! You CLEARLY are interested in defending the quran because now I am convinced that you are a koran alone muslim. No matter how much you try to Deny that you are a quran alone muslim your posts MANIFEST IT CLEARLY and you are not good at hiding it.

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/43/10/default.htm
Cradle (many); resting-place (Pickhtall, Shakir, some others); bed (many). So 'carpet' must be understood as couch-like floor, carpeted!

Cradle, bed all are flat objects and not round so you shouldn;t even have bothered to open your stupid mouth here.

Btw why are my sources spurious?? So you are back to your argument i.e anything that doesn't suit your position is spurious. You never tell us why its to be SPURIOUS.

The quote of MbL is no more than an opinion, itself never disproving anything I came with. Prove it otherwise.

You are supposed to show the flaws in what MBL brought. You merely claim that its opinion. Infact both Lane's Lexicon and Lisan Al Arab prove MBL's source as right.

Repeating AGAIN (for the XX time) my stance on historical hadiths:

viewtopic.php?p=159349#p159349
Rectification: I reject religious law-binding hadiths, as in the Shariah, but always
maintained that those of historic interest are to be judged on their own values.

You merely claim that but in reality you only pick what you like and reject.Let's see how much of the above statement is true...

What values did you use to reject the tafsirs which talk about FLAT EARTH???The above statement you made doesn't hold any water because you don't use any criteria to sift between the ahadith. You merely ignore what doesn't suits your purpose . . That;s how you have debated till date. The tafsirs in question aren't law binding. They merely serve to explain the meaning of the verse. They provide the context of the verse and they have no connection with law binding because they don't prescribe any law here so what is the basis for rejecting them ???.

Everyone can see what a charlatan you are ! On other threads you claim that Abbasids fabricated the entire things other than the quran. If we are to accept this idiotic claim of yours then in such a case how can corrupt sources provide us with the correct history? How can they be taken as historical sources ???

You seem to have a problem understanding 'ON THEIR OWN VALUE'. Should we be surprised?

Please tell us the VALUE THAT you have USED HERE to reject the tafsirs ?

You're but a sophist, throwing deceptions, blindly grabbing anything that suits you and then putting this on me!

More skating expected...

It's a tragedy and I feel sorry for you that you don't even understand that you are talking rubbish and you are getting badly EFFED in arse ..

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Did not want me to get going on science in Bible ...... ran away as expected ................ and had the guts to complain about Quran ........ by forcing errors in it.............. you been excused ........... see you around

Reminds me of the lunatic that claims victory after the other guy gets tired of beating him up. But, that's the Muslim way. Lebanon lays in shambles and Hezbollah claims victory. Such desperate, twisted people.

You are the one who ran away with your tail between your legs, so should we talk about bible & science , christian boy?

Sure, go ahead. But you realize that if you do that, then you have to also answer the problems in the Quran, like it mistakenly taking the Trinity to include Mary. You never answered that.

[The Cat]

When something is SPREAD it doesn't take a round shape you stupid moron! Lane's Lexicon talks about SPREADING OUT OR EXTENDING . Lane's Lexicon is actually confirming what MBL and I have been saying here..... Even the Lane' s lexicon clearly talks here about a place where ostrich lays it eggs and Ostrich flattens the ground when it lays the eggs and the quran referring to the Dahaha indicates that it termed earth as FLAT PLACE just like the PLACE WHERE OSTRICH LAYS DOWN ITS EGGS. THis is further confirmed by Lisan Al Arab( from the same wiki islam link).... You are supposed to show the flaws in what MBL brought. You merely claim that its opinion. Infact both Lane's Lexicon and Lisan Al Arab prove MBL's source as right.

See my posts above... Dahaha has nothing to do with either roundness of flatness, but with a resting-place, cozy, carpeted, habitable.

The quote from MbL states: ''Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable
place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed''.
--See how it rather PROOF my point, deceiving twister...

Cradle, bed all are flat objects and not round.... Btw why are my sources spurious??

Again, as demonstrated in 15.19; 79.30; 29.56; 51.48 and 43.10 the idea of spreading out like an ostrich is to make a cozy, carpeted place.

What values did you use to reject the tafsirs which talk about FLAT EARTH??.... They provide the context of the verse and they have no connection with law binding because they don't prescribe any law here so what is the basis for rejecting them ???.... Please tell us the VALUE THAT you have USED HERE to reject the tafsirs ?

The Koran itself, + dictionaries, Your Senility. Even Lane's Lexicon says: He (God) made the earth wide, or ample.

To all the verses quoted above, we can add:
In 71.19 we find 'carpet' much more often, yet carrying the idea of an earth as comfortable as a carpeted place, never 'flatness'.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/71/19/default.htm

It's a tragedy and I feel sorry for you that you don't even understand that you are talking rubbish and you are getting badly EFFED in arse ..

Nothing but your own projection... backfiring at yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

The quote of MbL is no more than an opinion, itself never a refutation of anything I came with. Prove me wrong.

It's not an opinion, it specifically explained it in linguistic detail. Even if you want to merely write it off as their opinion, why are we supposed to take your opinion over theirs? It's ridiculous. Now, let's see if you can give me a straight answer for once. You claim that it's talking about making the earth habitable. In what respect is it talking about making it habitable? Is it talking about spreading out and smoothing the shape of the earth itself or is it merely talking about spreading out and smoothing the land or surface of the earth? You can't deny that it says spread all over the place in it's multiple repeats of the same point. That part is quite consistent. So what is it talking about when it says spread out?

More skating expected...

Excuse me Dorothy Hamil, you're the one who is skating. Somehow, I don't think I'm going to get a clear, straightforward answer from you to my question.

We both know that the Quran frequently repeats the same exact idea throughout it. Same thing goes with the idea of the earth being spread out. So let's take a look at the other verses that speak of the same exact thing, and let's use the translators that you seem to prefer.

13:3 (Asad) And it is He who has spread the earth wide and placed on it firm mountains and running waters,
13:3 (Pickthall) And He it is Who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams,

Why does it even mention spreading at all??? What does spreading have to do with beds and cradles?? Why don't we find those words in this verse?? Clearly, it's talking about the same exact thing that the verses you referenced are talking about. That's what the Quran does all over the place. It repeats the same idea over and over because Muhammad, in actuality, had very little to say, but he kept on needing new Suras so that he could slip edicts in them that suited his desires. So as a filler, he used repeats ad nauseam.

15:9 (Asad) And the earth -We have spread it out wide, and placed on it mountains firm,
15:9 (Picthall) And the earth have We spread out, and placed therein firm hills

That's talking about the same exact thing as 13:3 and once again no mention of cradle or bed and instead a consistent repeat of spreading it out WIDE. What happens to something when you spread it out wide?? Does it get rounder or flatter?? Where does it say the earth was rolled up?? It certainly has those words in the Arabic language and yet it never once, even once says that in spite of the fact of how often it repeats this very same idea.

50:7 (Asad) And the earth - We have spread it wide, and set upon it mountains firm
50:7 (Pickthall) And the earth have We spread out, and have flung firm hills therein

55:10 (Asad) And the earth has He spread out for all living beings
55:10 (Pickthall) And the earth hath He appointed for (His) creatures

Seems to me that spread out is referring to making it ample size for creatures to live on it. What happens when you spread an object out?? Usually, that entails making it flatter to the extent that it is spread. Now, maybe one can say that a balloon can be spread out without it becoming more flat, but the earth didn't inflate like a balloon and if anything, it shrunk as it cooled. But if you perceive that the earth was once round like the sun and moon and Allah flattened it out so that people could live on it without falling off, then the verses make absolute perfect sense. No further explanation needed. And this is indeed what people of Muhammad's time and area thought. Remember, the Quran does not attempt to be a science book. It attempts to merely affirm what people believed and uses those affirmations as proof that Allah is the right God and hence Muhammad is a legitimate prophet. It's far too obvious no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.

71:19 (Asad) And God has made the earth a wide expanse for you
71:19 (Pickthall) And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you

Why is it saying WIDE if it is merely referring to comfort?? It's not talking about comfort, it's talking about the size and shape of the earth. Just once I'd like to see something even remotely similar to "rolled up" when it talks about the earth, but in multiple repeated instances, that is nowhere to be found.

88:20 (Asad) And at the earth, how it is spread out?
88:20 (Pickthall) And the earth, how it is spread?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

The quote from MbL states: ''Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable
place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed''.
--See how it rather PROOF my point, deceiving twister...

OK, so by smoothing it, are you saying he smoothed out the outer surface of the earth, i.e. the ground? He smoothed out the hills? What exactly ARE you saying? What did Allah do to make the earth more comfortable for us? Be specific. Thank you.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

You're but a sophist,

How can you possibly take yourself seriously?? It's ironic, but it's usually the people that try to sound intelligent and behave with snobbery that are the least intelligent.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Again, as demonstrated in 15.19; 79.30; 29.56; 51.48 and 43.10 the idea of spreading out like an ostrich is to make a cozy, carpeted place.

First you try to write off what I quoted as merely their opinion. Then, when convenient, you acknowledge it's talking about what the mother ostrich does. She spreads the dirt out and flattens it, as the article correctly said. So which is it?? Does it refer to a mother ostrich spreading out the dirt and stamping on it to flatten it? Why is it that I suspect I'm not going to get a straight answer to that question?

To all the verses quoted above, we can add:
In 71.19 we find 'carpet' much more often, yet carrying the idea of an earth as comfortable as a carpeted place, never 'flatness'.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/71/19/default.htm

What happens when you take a roll of carpeting and spread it out?? What happens to it's shape? Remember, it doesn't just say carpet, it says spread out. So what is happening to that carpet during the action of spreading it out?? What shape was the carpet before it was spread out?? What shape is it after it is spread out?

[skynightblaze]

Again, as demonstrated in 15.19; 79.30; 29.56; 51.48 and 43.10 the idea of spreading out like an ostrich is to make a cozy, carpeted place.

but there are other verses which talk about SPREADING of the earth where no carpet, no bed or no cradle is mentioned So do you accept that EARTH IS FLAT according to quran? More ever how about accepting Tafsirs??

[skynightblaze]

First you try to write off what I quoted as merely their opinion. Then, when convenient, you acknowledge it's talking about what the mother ostrich does.

Nice job on catching this con man.He uses double standards. On the other thread he dismisses the entire ahadith as fabrications and yet at the same time quotes them especially when it suits his position . Also good job on refuting this con man who tried to protect the quran by claiming that these verses are referring to comfort when it talks about EARTH being like a cradle or carpet..

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

There's only two possible answers. In order to make the earth habitable Allah either
1) Flattened out the earth itself so that people can have plenty of space to live on a flat surface whereas they wouldn't have plenty of space if it was round (or so it was thought)
or
2) Flattened or smoothed out the land or outer crust of the earth

Since spread, in of itself, does not mean habitable, then there is no other possible meaning for those verses than the above two.