Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
A person who uses quranic verses to authenticate itself ought not to talk about logic (or scientific methodology) at all.
??  Come again. Since mecca is mentioned only once it cannot mean "mecca"? Seriously?Let us see - quranic translators translate it as mecca. People that know arabic translate it as mecca. We are now supposed to accept the word of one person (who does not know arabic) when he suddenly claims that it is not mecca? I think you should just quit with 48.24 once and for all.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Even more surprising thing is people blindly follow this con man and cannot see through the deception. CAT is accusing you of some logical fallacies and he uses these buzz words often and yet he doesnt even understand what they mean and how they are to be applied . He is a gigantic troll to be precise. Well now let us show him that some of the quranic verses exist in the quran only once and hence they are fabrications  Obviously Mecca is mentioned in the quran in the verse 48:24. He himself doesn't understand arabic though he loves to pretend that he knows . A native arabic speaker told me that sh!t heads from free minders apply the meaning of the root to the word formed from it. That is not how arabic language works. Words can have a different meaning from the roots from which they are derived. Now Since I aint an arabic literate I only know this much. There must be a good reason as to why every single translator has translated the 48:24 to include Mecca in it. More ever the only new point that is worth addressing that he has brought here is that quran doesn't mention the location of Mecca. I may as well ask him to show the location of Mecca as described by the Sahih Bukhari or Sahih muslim ahadith. As far as I know sahih bukhari or sahih muslim hadith only talk about Mecca but they too are silent about location of Mecca and hence this sh!t head argument is useless to the core. Rest of the arguments about Abraha's scripture indicate his intellectual bankruptcy to understand what the other person writes. Anyway he is asking as to why I defend the hadith. Its because quran alone sh!t heads want to tell us that Muhammad was a saint and therefore they need to eliminate the hadith. I defend hadith not because there is some useful content in it but because it exposes islam for what it is. Muhammad was a criminal . Period! Now what I do is use the very same islamic sources like hadith to attack islam. Let's see an example to understand the vastness of CAT's stupidity ..Suppose if one claims that hitler killing millions of jews is a fact then does that mean he/she supports mass murders? According to this idiot CAT THATS SUPPORTING A MASS MURDERER because we are defending this and claiming that its a genuine fact ! Now Just because history is ugly we don't deny it. WE face it and condemn it. That's what I do with those ahadith. I don't deny they are ugly . I only say that they are true and that's what islam is all about. Now most of the arguments used to debunk ahadith are useless and some of the arguments which create a problem for ahadith also create a problem for quran so logically speaking islam = Quran + ahadith or else its none and therefore muslims are left logically with 2 choices : 1) Take hadith as true and accept that Muhammad was a criminal OR 2)Agree that both these books are unreliable Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Hi Badranaya Well done on the the ebook. It sounds like it's a hit. I think the most important thing here is that we are "all" trying to find the truth and there are maybe somethings here which may be a bit obscure or not quite right. But that is the beauty of this thread becuase it gives one something to think about that you may not have thought about before. If anything, I hope your book helps people to open their minds about their religion and start making enquiries for themselves. All the best Phill
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
deleted.
Last edited by Badranaya on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Hi Badranaya...
I've made a quite extensive search upon what I have for you. The references of pdf files with be colored in red. Patricia Crone: Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (large excepts) http://books.google.ca/books?id=VWL-_hR ... ba&f=false Patricia Crone & Michael Cook: Hagarism, the Making of the Islamic World (excerpts) http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ta08AAA ... ca&f=false Alfred Guillaume: The Traditions of Islam http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Gu ... /index.htm viewtopic.php?p=151371#p151371 William A. Percy, Historical Facts about the Origins of Islam http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index ... s_of_Islam How Makkah translated the Assyrian area of Makkan & Melukhkha viewtopic.php?p=152458#p152458 From ibn Warraq, Why I'm Not a Muslim (it went out of Internet) viewtopic.php?p=146555#p146555 Dr Rafat Amari (good researches except when relying on the Islamic traditions)... http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm On the Meccan Archaeology http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... eology.htm Mecca through the Classical Writers http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... ssical.htm Mecca and the Biblical Claim http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... _bible.htm 3 articles: Is Muhammad a Descent of Ishmael? http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/index.htm The Flowering of Muslim Theology (Josef van Ess, large excerpts) http://books.google.ca/books?id=2MNvt1m ... &q&f=false An interview with Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Muhammad as a Christological Honorific Title. http://en.qantara.de/wcsite.php?wc_c=8052 A thread on his book: The Hidden Origins of Islam http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56994 The Myth of Mecca, by Jack Wheeler. http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 2943.shtml http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm Ten Myths about Islam, by Timothy W. Dunkin http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html viewtopic.php?p=85351#p85351 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad Mudarras Kadhir Gaznavi http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/index.htm Answering Islam Library of Classical Books Including al-Kindi; Ignaz Goldziher; Arthur Jeffery; Alphonse Mingana; Joseph Schacht; William St. Clair-Tisdall. http://answering-islam.org/Books/index.htm Documents sur les origines de l'Islam (huge but in French, translator site required) http://www.islam-documents.org/ Islamic books online (pdf files requiring Adobe) http://islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html ______________________ The easiest is to demonstrate that Muhammad was living in the Northwest Arabia, anywhere between Eilat and Hegra. Certainly not where nowadays Mecca is located, but in the old area of al-Qura (6.92; 42.7). Or how Muhammad has been fabricating, like shown in this thread. A Resume of the whole thread viewtopic.php?p=152903#p152903 Summing the Archaeological evidences against nowadays Mecca viewtopic.php?p=150476#p150476 Completed in Resource Center: MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai! viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527 Hadiths. The next helpful thing is to use the Quranists' arguments debunking the hadiths, for without them 90% of the Shariah falls down. Some Koraners sites: viewtopic.php?p=124484#p124484 Mesmorial (Jared) http://allpoetry.com/column/7554963-Min ... _-by-Jared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hadith How the hadiths are copied from the Jewish traditions of Oral Laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... l_Law.html The Criminals of Islam, by Shabbir Ahmed. http://www.ourbeacon.com/wp-content/upl ... minals.pdf Early criticism of the Hadiths: http://www18.georgetown.edu/data/people ... -51827.pdf Joseph Schacht, A Revaluation of Islamic Traditions. http://www.answering-islam.net/Books/Sc ... uation.htm How Muhammad's Sunna Trumps Allah's Book, by Sam Shamoun http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... _quran.htm __________________________________ Some of my threads in Resource Center: External References to Early Islam viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5285 Shirk & Idolatry in Islam viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1062 Threads by Apple Pie, Rainbow & others over the Koranic Jesus viewtopic.php?p=128793#p128793 The Case of Aisha viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8159 Was the Bible corrupted? viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8273 Imam Abraham & the son of the Promise viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8369 Was the 'Ummi' prophet illiterate? viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8381 Could the Vedic Varuna Be Allah ? viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8394 The Laws (Sharia) Within the Koran viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8384 The Koranic -ISA (son of...); -Origin of the name; The Hindu connection; Ibn Maryama; The Word of Allah; Not Allah's walid. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8769 The Hadiths' Perfidy viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8185 Abrogation in Islam viewtopic.php?p=122827#p122827 viewtopic.php?p=154203#p154203 The Koranic Deceptive 'Proper Names' (still on-going) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10230 In Old Resource center.... The Cat's Archives http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 923#678923 Islam 101: A Lexicon for Dummies http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34806 Was the Qur'an First in (pure) Arabic? http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39999 The Islamic Declaration of Human Rights http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38701 That's about it my friend, hope you find some requests therein...  Last edited by The Cat on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Already answered (where you admitted your basic dishonesty): viewtopic.php?p=151280#p151280 We're talking about Classical Arabic, that of the Koran, in which dictionaries state that MKK means sucking. 1.-- Al-Qamus Al-Muheet: Used with an opponent to mean others insisting on requests from him 2.-- Lisan Al-Arab:- تمكَّك , TAMAKKAK: Insisted on requests from an opponent 3.-- Al-Ghani: MKK: Sucking; used with an opponent to mean others insisting on requests from him. 4.-- Al-Waseet: MKK: used with an opponent to mean others insisting on requests from that opponent. And this perfectly fits the context of the harsh negotiations that went on at Hubaidiya... More so, we have find out that the Quraysh were the inhabitants of the old al-Qura area, mentioned in 6.92 and 42.7, covering nearby Tabuk, Khaybar, al-Hijr (Hegra/Hegira) and al-Haram (or Al Ula/Dedan) where we now must locate the Koranic al-Masjid al-Haram! BATN in 'bi-batni makkata': In 48.24 -bibatni makkata-, bi (preposition, in) batn is even wrongly translated as 'valley' while it rather means: midst, center, belly. These words mix with 'Mecca' don't fit at all... These negociations were never conducted in the 'center', or 'belly' of Mecca! More so, in Arabic a valley has always been written WADI and it's not found at all in 48.24. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi 48.24 (as it is): And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do. 48.24 (corrected): And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the midst of wrangles, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do. 'Mecca' isn't mentioned anywhere else in the Koran but perfidiously added in some brackets, like by Shakir in 62.2, or Pickthall in 2.125, 2.196 & 33.6. I've also shown how 93.7 was soften. These translators were the puppets of their own vested interests. You're appeal to their authority is trampled by ALL the Classical Arabic dictionaries, the ultimate authority in Koranic meanings. For more informations, + links Addenda & Miscellaneous (1): On 48.24 Bibatni 'Makkata' viewtopic.php?p=137029#p137029
Irrelevant. As demonstrated above, the Koran doesn't even mentions Mecca. No more than in 2.125, 2.196, 33.6 (Pickthall) & 62.2 (Shakir). Now, where was 'Mecca' and the direction of prayers at the time of Bukhari and Muslim? Do you think it's the same place as indicated by the oldest qiblas? The al-Qura of old? Where do the Qibla of the Oldest Mosques Point to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pO4COKGFs8 And, AGAIN, its corrected location doesn't affect chronology, like of the Koran's compilation. How Nowadays Mecca Doesn't Fit the Bill ! viewtopic.php?p=135047#p135047 Since this thread is dedicated to history and you're admittedly ignorant into that, you're only trolling.... once again.
You didn't find it then and you won't now  Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Right before that...
So what's your problem about them? Don't you want to expose Islam too? You don't even need the hadiths to prove Muhammad a deviant... But do tell me, before the hadiths became authoritative 200 years after Muhammad, how the righteous caliphs (for example) were bad Koran alone Muslims for so long? After all they didn't even follow the prophet's examples while collecting the Koran...
First, you've failed miserably in claiming the hadiths recorded 'genuine fact'. Second, you're really senile for bringing over and over the same debunked arguments. viewtopic.php?p=130980#p130980
You still don't even understand what is meant by defending the -authenticity- of the hadiths.  Although I taught you time again how authenticity means legitimacy viewtopic.php?p=130330#p130330 viewtopic.php?p=130869#p130869 viewtopic.php?p=130980#p130980 And AGAIN in this very thread: On the hadiths authenticity viewtopic.php?p=150500#p150500 viewtopic.php?p=151586#p151586 viewtopic.php?p=149472#p149472
It's clear that you never knew what you were talking about, and still is: authentic and authenticity do not mean the same. For example, Mein Kampf is an authentic book at the core of Nazism but its authenticity is loathsome to most everyone. Read my -very old- signature... Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Prove how I authenticated myself in such way. More Ad Hominem as to Poisoning the Well doesn't exactly underline your 'logic'.  Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
That is Interesting "The Cat". It sounds a bit like a "condition of surrender" negotiations ?.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
I have added my words and colored them in red which you deliberately skipped! Not only you are a troll but you are a dishonest person.
This is the last time I am telling you troll that Quran doesn't tell us anything about Muhammad's personal life and how he lived. The authenticity of quran depends on the character of Muhammad. IF he was a fraud then quran may as well be flushed down a toilet and therefore knowing Muhammad is very important. His character plays important role in determining whether quran is really a word of GOd or not.Also quran corrected Muhammad when he sinned and hence if Muhammad deviated from anything we can expect to know that in the quran.
These idiotic arguments have been answered time and again. I have already shown you thousands of times that early hadith existed. You claim there are no manuscripts for them but then there are also no manuscripts for quran. If you can believe in the quran without its original manuscripts then you have got no right to demand for manuscripts. More ever The caliphs werent quran alone muslims. They didnt need the ahadith because they had experienced it first hand. Now since you are a troll of the highest caliber you would keep spinning around this fact time and again. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
What source did you use to understand the part that I have colored? Where does quran utter the word "Hubaidiya"? Where does quran talk about negotiations? You seem to pick up the context of this verse from sources other than quran here and then claim that your translation fits the context perfectly well!. See what a hypocrite and a huge troll you are?? It seems that a troll like you have no problem in using sources other than quran to make your case but when they don't suit your idiotic ideas you seem to reject them. Now if you are referring to sources other than quran to understand the context then any source will point you to MECCA. This verse is talking about MECCA. Btw just because a translation fits a context well it doesn;t mean its the only correct one. I am not interested in replying to the rest of your gibberish post which you keep repeating time and again. More ever I dont believe that you are such a great person with arabic seeing something new that none till date has even found or looked upon. I would rely on 40 renowned translators for their arabic rather than relying on you.I categorize you besides BMZ who is the troll of the century but it seems that you are a compete to him now and he may no longer retain his no 1 spot. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
I could never understood cat, if he believes in islam, is it true or false, muhammad was prophet or not, quran is true or not ........... the cat can you please in couple of simple sentences explain what you believe in
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
You're the one here who introduced a dishonest red herring. I've added (...) indicating that there was more! You've said: ''To be honest, to prove that Muhammad was criminal one doesn't need ahadith at all. Quran itself is a proof''. And hadiths don't add clarity but confusions. Many paint Muhammad as a grand sage to be followed... not so in the Koran. So my question remains unanswered thanks to your Red Herring, ad Hominem and Poisoning the Well fallacies. What else?
Wrong the authentication of the Koran only relies on the Uthman codex, in which Muhammad played no part at all. Quite the contrary, it was collected against Muhammad's examples... so they weren't binding even to these caliphs! What's not in the Koran CANNOT be religiously allowed like in the Islamic Shariah through the hadiths. Get it???
Wrong we've got manuscripts of the Koran, like the Sana'a manuscript... We have no first hand testimonies of the existence of any 'early' hadith and they all sprang AFTER the Abbasids... None of the hadiths were authoritative before 200 years after Muhammad. All these historical FACTS concur to underline that they were forged backward to skip away Muhammad's interdiction over them. The caliphs knew how to pray and marry without the hadiths, because they followed the Sunna (ancestral practices), not the hadiths. Now these ancestral practices would have been perpetuated without them. But then, a class of Islamic Pharisees took over Islam... And I've told you, time again, how Muhammad is not even depicted as an Imam in the Koran, wherein he's nobody but a messenger. ____________________
That sura 48 refers to the negociations/treaty of Hudaibiya is almost common knowledge. See any tafsir or B.3.50.891... Even many translations added 'hudaibiya' in brackets. http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/48/24/default.htm And, aren't you the one who said that neither Bukhari or Muslim gave any location for Mecca, my very point of contention? Now, if a translation fits the context chances are it's right; the versions of the translators don't, as explained right above. I've looked at the translations and most of them translated -bibatni- as 'valley' which is so plainly wrong, the Arabic for valley being WADI. The others saw the blunt and translated more correctly 'midst' (Y. Ali), 'center', 'belly' or 'heart'' (etc). But this is exposing the fallacy of 'Mecca' since the Muslims weren't ever allowed in, having to stay out, so it couldn't have been in the 'heart' of Mecca, the negotiations and the treaty taking place ten miles away... in the spring of Hudaibiya. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Arti ... _talib.htm
Pathetic litany of logical fallacies -as always- when snb is cornered. As a flagrant ignoramus about history... you're the TROLL herein! Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
@IFFO
You have got a new brother in religion "The CAT". Please welcome him. @CAT If anyone finds you logical then I feel sorry for them. You latest post is not worth addressing and I have already replies to these arguments plenty of times and not interested in repeating the same . Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
You too Iffo?? join the club of FFI readers who never understood what The Cat is writing., that also includes The Cat.... 
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Include me too . I never used to understand what this person wrote on this forum . I used to think that may be this person is a scholar and I am not fit to understand what he writes but when I actually started debating him I realized that he was a pathetic poster and the reason as to why people don't understand what he writes is because he is incoherent and not because he really is a scholar and people are dumb to understand him. His logic is pathetic and I must say that no member on FFI is as poor as this person as far as logic is concerned. Again I think we must remember a saying "Everything that shines is not gold". He crafts posts in such a way that the other party is hypnotized and they think he is a real scholar but the breaking news is he is a gigantic troll(not even ordinary) Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Dear The Cat,
Thanks so much for the plethoric reference listed for me, though most of them are known well to me. ( Thanks & Regards  Last edited by Badranaya on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
I'm blasted! A bunch of people here have acknowledged that their level of understanding is about that of 'iffo'.
 _________________
Where? Certainly not here... And this kind of Sunnite evading has been pointed out before... viewtopic.php?p=160296#p160296
viewtopic.php?p=160429#p160429 Then please advise us all whenever you've learned to differentiate between 'authentic' and 'authenticity'. It's a prerequisite!  Last edited by The Cat on Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
Well I'm glad that you've been through all that already, it's a ton more than snb (-: And your commitment is certainly laudable...  No I do not have these files you mentioned. Bye. Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
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