Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

His life, his examples and his psychology
maat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by maat »

I was also busy with the Amorite connection and Abraham. The Amorite language as found in Mari seems to have sanskrit roots/influences.
I always thought that the first travels of mythical Ahmad(muhammad) went along Makka in Jordan. Given distances and descriptions.
Where Makkah is now it used to be known as Bekkah. Gathering of people. End point of a caravan-route.
Only ever found one source for that.

maat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by maat »

OH REALLY a.k.a. ?

must have been in responce to some erratic posting.

No interest in academia, not particularly hatefull of muslims but in some other posts annoyed at people you consider not hatefull enough, a lot of flaming and namecalling and gossiping, very short posts and throatcancer?
Do I know you? Do I even want to? I noticed a lot said goodbye to you. Certainly not the worst of debaters.

Never mind, I'll ignore this rude behaviour. :cool:

maat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by maat »

Cat and yezevee are you aware of this site:
Re: Was Muhammad a prophet?

Postby maat » Sun May 15, 2011 7:06 am
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... c_id/11036

They have
1. a god
2. a spirit/muhammad-manprophet/waker of the dead/ an adjective/a comforter etc.

One choice of the above excludes the others. :-|

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

maat wrote:Where Makkah is now it used to be known as Bekkah. Gathering of people. End point of a caravan-route.
Very close maat. Becca meant something like a 'salvation place' and it's related to water, like after a long wandering in the desert.
As such it's very akin to the biblical 'Kadesh Barnea': kadesh meaning holy and barnea, wandering. It's a generic not a proper name.

Gen 14.7: And they returned and came to Enmishpat, which [is] Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites....

Num 33.36: And they removed from Eziongaber, and pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which [is] Kadesh.

Num 33.37: And they removed from Kadesh, and pitched in mount Hor, in the edge of the land of Edom.

Going on furthermore with Becca (3.96-97)...

Maqam Ibrahim
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam ... peters.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The word hijr itself means "inviolable" or "taboo," and it occurs once in that sense in the Quran (6:137-139), in reference not to the area near the Ka'ba but to animals and crops earmarked as belonging to the gods, a sense that supports the contention that the hijr, whatever its original extent, may have served as a pen for the animals destined for sacrifice to the idols around the Ka'ba. Whether it was so used in Muhammad's own lifetime seems doubtful, however, at least on the evidence of the Muslim authorities. As the hijr is portrayed in Muhammad's day, it was a place of common assembly where political matters were discussed, or people prayed, or, as it appears, slept......

The Black Stone was not the only venerated stone in the Meccan sanctuary. In Islamic times visitors were shown one bearing the footprint of Abraham himself and called the "station" or "standing place" of Abraham (maqam Ibrahim). The latter expression occurs twice in the Quran. The mention at 3:97 is connected with a place called Bakka, apparently the site of the House and the place in which are God's manifest signs, including the Station of Abraham, an allusion that suggests a place within the Haram. In 2:125 the believers are urged to "take the maqam Ibrahim as a place of prayer (musalla)," or, more literally, "take some place from the maqam Ibrahim as a place of prayer," a mode of expression that suggested to some commentators that the "station of Abraham" might refer to the entire sanctuary or even the entire area of the pilgrimage.....

Pilgrimage and Other Festivals
The Hajj, it has been maintained, originally had nothing to do with Mecca, as even the Islamic version of the ritual testifies: the climax of the Muslim Hajj was and is the "standing" at Arafat, followed by a procession to Mina and sacrifice there, after which the pilgrim was free to remove the ritual vestments." More, it was common knowledge that not the Quraysh but the Sufa, and later the Tamim, held the religious offices, the so-called "permission" (ijaza), at Arafat and Mina." And not only was Mecca not part of the original Hajj; there may have been no trading in the city in connection with its own rituals. Such, at any rate, one might conclude from the fact that the famous pilgrimage fairs-and Mecca is never numbered among them-are associated with Arafat and Mina and that the Quraysh seem to play no major role in them.

Thus the Meccan ritual was at some point joined to the Hajj, probably by Muhammad himself.
Al-Hijr really refers to a city/oasis otherwise known as Hegra (sura 15), nowadays Mada'in Saleh, a revolving super center of all tradings.
And we've seen how the Quraysh & the Koranic umm al-Qura (6.92/42.7) referred to the old area of... Al-Qura (+/- the Tabuk province).

Here, we shall pause and ponder over the fact that our 'Petra' was rather named BEQEM by the Nabataeans themselves!

Now, it's not only Kadesh Barnea but also the biblical Meribah that was a generic for 'any place with salvation water' (as Becca).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meribah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to the Book of Exodus, Meribah was a location in Rephidim, while according to the Book of Numbers, Meribah was located at Kadesh-Barnea. Textual scholars attribute the difference to the different sources from which these passages derive, and regard both mentions of Meribah as referring to the same place. The Septuagint and Targums deal with the issue by regarding the Meribah in the Book of Numbers as simply being a common noun, rather than a place-name, rendering Me Meribath-Kadesh as the waters of strife in Kadesh rather than as the waters of Meribah in Kadesh.

The identification of Rephidim is heavily dependent on the identification of the Biblical Mount Sinai, which the biblical narrative portrays the Israelites as having reached shortly after they had left Rephidim. Traditionally, Sinai was equated with one of the mountains at the south of the Sinai Peninsula leading to the identification of Rephidim as the Wadi Refayid, a location roughly 8 miles south from Jebel Musa; this would make it quite difficult to equate the Meribah in Rephidim with the Meribah near Kadesh-Barnea.

However, the majority of both scholars and religious authorities believe that this traditional identification of Sinai is inaccurate, with the suggested alternatives being in the north and centre of the Sinai peninsula, in the Hejaz, and in the north eastern Arabah; these identifications would fit with the situation that both biblical narratives of Meribah referring to a place in the vicinity of Kedesh-Barnea.
Well, isn't Rephidim related to ''the city of Rapikh'' (the modern Raphia) ''at the edge of the wadi of Egypt" (the present Wadi El-Arîsh)!

Meribah means quarreling, thus sorrow from lack of stream, weeping... According to the Islamic tradition, Hagar and Ishmael
wandered in the desert, suffering from thirst, until they found 'salvation water', ie. a Becca (or a Kadesh Barnea, a Meribah).

To the Nabataeans Mt Seir, rather a whole range of mountains, were known as Dhu Shara'a (Duchara/Duchares) from which Sharia derives.
http://nabataea.net/gods.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Đū Shará (Arabic: ذو شرى‎, "Lord of the Mountain"), also transliterated as 'Dusares', was an aniconic deity in the ancient Middle East worshiped by the Nabataeans at Petra and Madain Saleh (of which city he was the patron).... In Greek times, he was associated with Zeus... as well as with Dionysus. His sanctuary at Petra contained a great temple in which a large cubical stone was the centrepiece.
And a large cubical stone dedicated to a divinity is otherwise known as... a ka'aba!

Closing this segment with something from the link given above...
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam ... peters.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Quran brings up the question of whether Muslims, who focused their religious orientation toward Mecca and were not accustomed to linking commerce with ritual, were permitted to indulge in trade, as did the Hajj habitués of Arafat and Mina. In this context the revelation preserved in Quran 2:198 was made public: "It is no fault for you if you seek the bounty of the Lord." There is little doubt that these verses refer to the pilgrimage season. ... what does seem reasonably clear is that previously pilgrimage trading had been restricted to the fairs, of which Mecca apparently was not one....

On the model of the two Jewish spring and fall haggim of Passover and Sukkoth, to which both Arab festivals appear to be closely related, the Umra and Hajj were both originally hajj. It may well have been Muhammad himself who determined that the Arafat ritual was the "Great Hajj" and the Umra the "Lesser," a distinction nowhere apparent in pre-Islamic times.

To be continued, still on the Becca avenue...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Hmm.. I guess i get the zest of "The Cat's" Idea..

Islam is nothing but juiceism and Some juice guy hated the pagans and their rituals in that Becca valley. So he made Quran out of juicey stories from Judaism and these Bedouin pagan brutes took that Allah mannual added some of their own bull shitt along with smart stories of Prophets, rule of 4 women/concubine concept, killed and eliminated all Jews and Christians from middle east and their goal now is to eliminate everything that is not Islam from the face of the earth. Off course before Jews & Christians, the pagans of the earth are the fuel for allah hell fire..

I hope I am right....
Last edited by yeezevee on Mon May 16, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Brilliant, yeezevee, I couldn't have put it beter myself. Might as well shut FFI down now. xxx

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

maat wrote:OH REALLY a.k.a. ?
Instead of derailing this thread more than it's already been derailed I'll do everybody a favour and respond here:
Spoiler! :
Yes. Really!
maat wrote:No interest in academia,
No interest in academia? How erratically clairvoyant! :roll:
maat wrote:not particularly hatefull of muslims but in some other posts annoyed at people you consider not hatefull enough,
Uh-oh . . here we go revealing one's mastery of English by slinging around the word "hate" in such a casual manner that some shallowness is apparent and repetitively at that. Get over it. It was once an easy to understand concept that has become a distorted term. Like Islam it has poisoned public discourse. In fact, many a Muslim and their friends use it profusely and it's effective.
When you have an opinion that doesn't agree with some, they'll call you a hater and dismiss your opinion which is practically restricting freedom of speech. - 24FilmProStudio
maat wrote:a lot of flaming and namecalling and gossiping, very short posts and throatcancer?
Whatever are you talking about? You've been asked to at least write in more understandable manner so many times before and as usual no such thing you don't.
maat wrote:Do I know you? Do I even want to? I noticed a lot said goodbye to you. Certainly not the worst of debaters.
Good grief! I can understand writing styles that are of the "stream of consciousness " variety but even the best of those writers do take time out to write without so much obliqueness. Please take this advice into consideration. You display a fair amount of knowledge that deserves reading through but it's just so damn cluttered that most people here can barely make sense of it.
maat wrote:Never mind, I'll ignore this rude behaviour. :cool:
When someone reminds others of your tendency to derail threads with garbled writing it may be "rude" to you but in fact, it's a troll alert. Have a good day. :rock:
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

yeezevee wrote:Hmm.. I guess i get the zest of "The Cat's" Idea..

Islam is nothing but juiceism and Some juice guy hated the pagans and their rituals in that Becca valley. So he made Quran out of juicey stories from Judaism and these Bedouin pagan brutes took that Allah mannual along with Prophets rule of 4 women/concubine concept killed and eliminated all Jews and Christians from middle east and their goal now is to eliminate everything that is not Islam from the face of the earth. Off course before Jews & Christians, the pagans of the earth are the fuel for allah hell fire..

I hope I am right....

I wouldn't go that far with it dear yeezevee. :lol: It's an exploration of a number of strands of cultural influence that need to be looked at carefully. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't really see why some people are so adamantly against what the Cat is writing about. In my opinion, much of what he is writing about is etymologically based and as such actually could lead to a much more complete deconstruction of the core texts of Islam. This, in turn, could well lead to more and more Muslims taking a closer look at Islam.

The emotional responses against what the Cat has written down have been so emotional that they actually obfuscates the points they are trying to get across. What we have forgotten is that the Cat is exploring territory that hasn't been fully explored and that is a big risk. Navigating into the wilderness has it's perils and running into dead ends is inevitable. Those who dare to go that far into uncharted territory have my respect.

Image
I know . . . it's complicated
What we don't seem to realize is that we are somewhere in between arriving at a theory of borrowing and fusing it with literary forensics. For many this may not matter but it does matter as this case presented against Obama's writings points out. Forgive me if I am wrong but what we have here appears to be a difference over approaches to educating the world about Islam. I get the feeling that some fear that this will blunt the case against Islam when I see it as an opportunity to upgun our arsenal against this memeplex we are grappling with. Different approaches do not necessarily mean divergent approaches that are incompatible. They can be used interchangeably as well as exclusively.
Last edited by Ansar al-Zindiqi on Sun May 15, 2011 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Really, those who want to defend Islam should bring irrefutable proof that what they believe is true. Of course they can't and will never be able to, and in the meantime, more and more evidence that it can't be builds up from sources which are hard to refute. Cat digs deep and brings us evidence to show, for example, that Muhammad could not have been born when Islam says he was and may never have existed at least in the form we are told he did (mind you, that's true for Jesus as well, and most of the characters in the OT), and that the Qur'an was cobbled together in the 8th century when lands and people needed to be conquered and the sword wasn't quite enough.

Now believers should bring proof to blow these arguments out of the water. Where is it? Why has the information which would back up Cat's arguments been destroyed, or hidden for so long, and inquiry forbidden, even punishable by death? In the UK there was a good documentary series on TV called Bibles Buried Secrets http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zp3j3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in which traditional Jewish / Christian (and by default, Islamic) beliefs were questioned, which would have resulted in burning at the stake not so many years ago, yet people still cling to their superstitions, regardless of the truth - it just tends to make them do it more quietly and with a bit of doubt which brings with it humility.

As an aside, someone said on a blog about the documentary,
I would like to see the BBC commision a documentary with Ms Stavrakopoulou, investigating weither Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaba at Mecca. I think this is a very important question. But with Aaqil Ahmed at the purse strings, I don't think this will happen too soon.


BT x

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Hi folks... I'll be going on with this Becca, part II...

In the following, from her 'Hagarism...', Patricia Crone searched deeply into texts few knew anything about. Let's check...
(I had to hand copy this, so some few copying mistakes could have occurred, emphasizes mine).

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ta08AAA ... ca&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Islamic tradition is naturally at pains to identify this place (Bekka/Mecca), and none of our sources shed any light on its original location. There is, however, one source of uncertain date, the Samaritan Aramaic text known as the Asatir, which suggests that the name Bakka may be a residue of an archaic phase in the search for a Hagarene sanctuary. According to this text, the children of Nebajoth built Mecca, as it is written: 'as thou goest (b'kh) towards Assyria, before all his brethen he fell (Gen.25.18). The b'kh of this verse read baka in Samaritan Hebrew, is clear reference to the place we know from the Koran as Bakka (3.96), and the context of the verse links it neatly with the death of Ishmael.........

Through their habit of up-dating Biblical place-names the Targums provided versions of Genesis in which the wanderings of the key figures -Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael- were transposed onto north-west Arabia.... The effect was to confer a patriarchal status on the Nabatean cultic centers of Petra and Elusa (Eilat).... Other renderings provided a deeper mapping in which the terminus was not Elusa (Eilat) but Hagra (or Hegra), the Arabic al-Hijr.

The most interesting point here is the mention of Hagra in connection with the death of Ishmael in Gen.25:18. Al-Hijr was thus an obvious place for a grave of Ishmael. That the Hagarenes did in fact make this use of it is suggested by a curious feature of Meccan topography: even in Mecca, Ishmael is buried in the hijr. In other words, we seem to have here a striking parallel to the case of Bakka. In each case the Hagarenes appear to have set out to find themselves a sanctuary from Gen.25:18, in one case via the Samaritan Pentateuch, in the other via the Jewish Targum; and in each case they seem to have abandoned the site, taking the place-names with them to their final Meccan repository.

The targumic renderings thus presented the north-west as appropriate terrain for a Hagaren sanctuary; and the connections of Mecca with Al-Hijr and the paganism of provincial Arabia suggest the this potentiality may in fact have been exploited. Such a hypothesis would go well with the predominance of the north-west in the rather meagre Arabian geography of the Koran, and would make sense of some anomalous indications in the Islamic tradition that the sanctuary was at one stage located to the north of Medina. But the importance of the targumic north-west in the sacred geography of the Haragenes is most dramatically confirmed by what we know of the early history of the qibla: it is towards somewhere in north-west Arabia that they appear to have turned in prayer.....

But the definitive solution was to detach the exodus (Hegira) from the conquests altogether and relocate it within Arabia. Thus in the Koran the 'day of redemption' (8.42) has become an episode in the biography of the Prophet, identified in the Islamic tradition with the battle of Badr. Conversely the in-gathering of the Jewish exiles to Palestine at the hands of a Muslim caliph, and the Jewish collaborators of the Palestinian venture became Arab (but not Ishmaelite) Ansar of Medina. The transposed exodus was then sealed into its new Arabian setting with the tradition......

In the Islamic tradition, the Meccan Sinai on which the Prophet received his first revelation is of course Hira. But Arafat, the mountain belonging to the Abrahamic complex, also bears of Sinaitic contamination. In the first place, while the form of the hajj suggests the Samaritan pilgrimage to Mt Gerizim, its ritual content presents striking parallels to the Biblical account of the waiting of the Israelites by Mt Sinai....
I did mention another part of her book (along with A. Guillaume's Traditions of Islam):
viewtopic.php?p=151371#p151371" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But let's keep digging into that Becca topic (btw. the Arabic bibakkata of 3.96-97 is very poor, some would even say unintelligible).

Many link the Becca with Psalm 84.7 where Beca is in Jerusalem's vicinity. Checking this Beca in the Jewish Encyclopedia...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 6&letter=B" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A valley mentioned in Ps. lxxxiv. 7 [6 A. V.]. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, the old
translators gave to "Baca" the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this
latter view is to be found in II Sam. v. 23 et seq.; I Chron. xiv. 14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates
a tree similar to the balsam-tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. König takes "Baca" from
the Arabian "baka'a," and translates it "lacking in streams." The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural
condition led him to adopt its name.
On this, free-minders people had this reflection:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?t ... 0.275;wap2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The interpretation of the valley of Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quite interesting....

It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to the dripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and
wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area, W of Meroth..... The two interpretations
of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah
where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.
http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/mosesinyemen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Medieval Arab geographer Yaqut al-Hamawi (d. 1229). Volume III on p. 834 of the edition published in Leipzig
Faaraan (Paran): An Arabicized Hebrew word. It is one of the names for Mekkah mentioned in the Torah.
It has been said that it is a name for the mountains of Mekkah.....
Paran in the Bible is Mecca today (hey, a Muslim site).
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now the Koranic al-Masjid al-Haram does NOT transcribe the idea of a man-made mosque, but the sacred and inviolable place
where the Mosaic laws were enacted, where right was separated from wrong doings. Same place must be that of Muhammad !
Masjid comes from the root SJD, sujud. It's usually translated by 'prostration' while it rather really means -led to agree-.
Derivatives (SJD) are 'masajid' and 'yasjudun' and they all are referring to 'clear understanding' (2.58, 2.187; 55.3-7; 84.21).

http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.word ... ostration/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Reading (55.3-7) clearly shows that everything in the heavens and the earth sujud and aslama or they consented themselves
peacefully (aslama from the root Salam) by God. The word Islam is also derived from the same root Salam. Thus if everything that God
created in the heavens and the earth are in a state of peacefulness or Islam, can the religionists also tell us how the sun, the moon,
the stars, the trees, and all of the animal kingdom become Muslims?

Did they have to declare, “We bear witness that there is no God except Allah, and we bear witness Muhammad is the messenger of Allah?”
Then why is it that such a declaration has become the first pillar of faith in so-called Islam? The billions of stars in the sky, the grass on earth,
the vegetables that we eat, the Bougainvillaea we plant around our houses, the trees in the forest all sujud to the One God. We do not
witness any of them prostrating physically. Everything we see obeys its God-given command; and God says it performs its sujud to Him.

See: The Deception of the Koranic 'proper names': viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5978" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For this particular item: viewtopic.php?p=104819#p104819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A summery and links to all topics within: viewtopic.php?p=110064#p110064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is SUCH MUCH to be cleaned-up in the complete CHAOS that is nowadays Islam, it's an HERCULEAN TASK !
Last edited by The Cat on Mon May 16, 2011 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Great to see Ansar and Booktalker here. I appreciate Cat's doings as well. It takes a leap of faith to realize these connections that he's making, what most of academia would never do since that takes them outside the establishment. Funding is also an issue for them.

I'll have to take a look at the "literary forensics" site too.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

well let me help cat a bit., may be he can dig deeper in that direction... ideally The Cat should go beyond Wiki copy/paste and beyond mock fighting SKB lol

Anjar––Umayyad Ruins in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley
http://www.suite101.com/content/anjar-- ... ey-a312553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Umayyad Mosque, Damascus Syria
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-uma ... ia-a119900" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anjar_ An Umayyad City
http://www.galenfrysinger.com/anjar.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

history of Olive Oil.. Olive tree Where It All Began
http://www.discoverlebanon.com/en/panor ... ve-oil.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HAJJ HAJJ

http://www.pakoz.com.au/data/HajjPresen ... -Umrah.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

similarities between the Islamic nation (Nation of Muhammad) and the Jewish (Hebrew) nation (Nation of Israel)
http://binsalaam.tripod.com/similarities.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seafaring Phoenicians or Nomadic Arabs

http://www.garynabhan.com/press/gpn000008.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/900/902/Kamal-Salibi/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Arabic Bosra, Syria The Islamic Occupation and Archaeology of an Ancient Roman City

Unlike many cities after the fall of the Roman Empire, Bosra found a new life as a flourishing Muslim town. This has lasted into the present day.

After the fall of the Roman Empire and conquest by the Muslim Arabs, many Roman cities fell into obscurity or ruin. Bosra is an exception. The city instead continued to thrive; as an important stopping point for pilgrims to Mecca and a strategically fortified defence against the crusaders. Unlike many ancient sites, it continues as a living city today.
Arabic Bosra

Bosra fell to Muslim Arabs in 634AD. Unlike many Roman towns in the Middle East, it did not fall into obscurity but continued to flourish. This is because of its position on the road to Mecca and its association with the prophet Mohammed himself. The town also became a site of conflict during the crusades, leading to its fortification.

Image
Byzantine windowframe in garden wall of Bosra - N sheldon
also read this shia-chat dear the cat...http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php ... ge__st__50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by yeezevee on Mon May 16, 2011 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

Ansar wrote:I wouldn't go that far with it dear yeezevee. :lol: It's an exploration of a number of strands of cultural influence that need to be looked at carefully. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't really see why some people are so adamantly against what the Cat is writing about. In my opinion, much of what he is writing about is etymologically based and as such actually could lead to a much more complete deconstruction of the core texts of Islam. This, in turn, could well lead to more and more Muslims taking a closer look at Islam.

The emotional responses against what the Cat has written down have been so emotional that they actually obfuscates the points they are trying to get across. What we have forgotten is that the Cat is exploring territory that hasn't been fully explored and that is a big risk. Navigating into the wilderness has it's perils and running into dead ends is inevitable. Those who dare to go that far into uncharted territory have my respect.
So you are referring to me as one of those fellows here. I would like to remind you that we are not here to promote quran alone faith. We are here to eliminate every single islamic scripture. Now I would have no problem if a person is genuine enough to debunk both ahadith + quran . If we examine the arguments made here then both ahadith + quran go down the drain but some people here still want us to believe that quran is a genuine book and isnt fabricated like ahadith. My opposition stands at this point. These people are defending quran . Thats my problem and I think I am right at opposing here. I am not here to appease islam and I dont think thats going to work any wonders for anyone.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Great to see Ansar and Booktalker here. I appreciate Cat's doings as well. It takes a leap of faith to realize these connections that he's making, what most of academia would never do since that takes them outside the establishment. Funding is also an issue for them.

I'll have to take a look at the "literary forensics" site too.
I ask you again . Please answer a couple of questions for me.

1)Are you interested in debunking the ahadith alone or quran + ahadith?
2) Do you think CAt' s arguments dont create a problem for quran?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

skynightblaze wrote: ............. Now I would have no problem if a person is genuine enough to debunk both ahadith + quran . If we examine the arguments made here then both ahadith + quran go down the drain but some people here still want us to believe that quran is a genuine book and isnt fabricated like ahadith. My opposition stands at this point. These people are defending quran . Thats my problem and I think I am right at opposing here. I am not here to appease islam and I dont think thats going to work any wonders for anyone.
well said SKB..... here I do support you., The Cat is NOT airing his real intentions in this thread and I don't know why. You are within your rights to question EVEN TRASH "the intentions of Quran Only Muslims and the concept of Quran only Islam."

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skynightblaze
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

booktalker wrote:Really, those who want to defend Islam should bring irrefutable proof that what they believe is true. Of course they can't and will never be able to, and in the meantime, more and more evidence that it can't be builds up from sources which are hard to refute. Cat digs deep and brings us evidence to show, for example, that Muhammad could not have been born when Islam says he was and may never have existed at least in the form we are told he did (mind you, that's true for Jesus as well, and most of the characters in the OT), and that the Qur'an was cobbled together in the 8th century when lands and people needed to be conquered and the sword wasn't quite enough.
Hello Booktalker, you are misreading. CAT doesnt say quran is a corrupt book from the 8th century. He claims only ahadith are a product of 8th century. You are reading him wrongly. That's is why I am opposing here . I am not here to defend any islamic scripture but the moment I see dishonesty being practiced i.e ahadith alone are not reliable but quran is, I sense the intentions are not good. If the intention to shed off ahadith was to eliminate the crimes and violence in the islamic world then the same person would also condemn quran and eliminate the ugly parts of quran but what I see here is an attempt to appease muslims and claim quran alone is reliable.

@Yeezevee

Thanks for supporting me.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

yeezevee wrote:Hmm.. I guess i get the zest of "The Cat's" Idea..

Islam is nothing but juiceism and Some juice guy hated the pagans and their rituals in that Becca valley. So he made Quran out of juicey stories from Judaism and these Bedouin pagan brutes took that Allah mannual added some of their own bull shitt along with smart Prophets rule of 4 women/concubine concept, killed and eliminated all Jews and Christians from middle east and their goal now is to eliminate everything that is not Islam from the face of the earth. Off course before Jews & Christians, the pagans of the earth are the fuel for allah hell fire..

I hope I am right....
booktalker wrote:Brilliant, yeezevee, I couldn't have put it beter myself. Might as well shut FFI down now. xxx
My idea is good idea?? You think so "booktalker"??

but your Idea is "BAD IDEA" SLEEK WILLEY ..lol., I will support your idea when we have no Islam and NO Muslims that we have seen and are seeing for the past 1400 years.

If I could remold Islam the way "Quran only Muslims" are doing., I will keep some stuff of Quran, I will remove more than 70% of that book which is nothing but NONSENSE and I will remove the words "Islam, Muslim & Quran" Give a new name to book, new name to Islam and new name to the word "Muslim" dear "booktalker". And..... and .... And I also demand the protection to my head and to the heads of those whom I love ., should be intact on the necks until we die natural death... lol....

The whole Islam.. the present Islam is nothing but some Crazy Ass shitt...
Last edited by yeezevee on Mon May 16, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

More Help to the Cat's Model of Islam

http://www.ebibleteacher.com/imagehtml/ ... %20800.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Path of Abraham

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/ ... escent.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Map of the Fertile Crescent in Ancient Times

Image
Map of the Ancient World at the Time of the Amorite Invasion (2000 B.C.)

The Cat .. go through this site at http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/ ... scent.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and click Jpegs to see what they are...

yeezevee
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Bad..Bad Cat.. He writes posts and deletes them.

"Do Not Hide Your Agenda
Make It Publc"


Pots it The Cat., don't fear that guy., Skynightblaze is NOT GOING TO BEAT YOU UP for questioning him... lol..

maat
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by maat »

Cat is just about the only one that keeps this forum going in the spirit it was intended. We are now at version 4 or 5 if I'm correct.
I've been around, under a different name long before you new-bies or even cat came on the scene.
This forum used to be the broadest and hottest thing on the web.
Not a simplistic hate-site! For that you can join any nazi-site on offer.

If you want to thoroughly debunk hadith, biografy and qur'aan you better have a good understanding what it is your talking about.
Otherwise you'r just degraded laughing stock.

But this discussion or even asking that question of allegiance is not right in this thread. And if any trolling going on that would be it.

CAT how does faraan correspond to furaan ?
The Amorite had a god Merodach/Meloch/(ni)mrod that was, like probably phoenician Jahweh calles 'he ...of the mountains, and one of his wifes was called see'ri ( i had that connected with the region of SEIR.) His other wife indeed a version of Shadah.

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