Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

His life, his examples and his psychology
pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

The Cat wrote: Where and when was that exactly?

1) There was no one named 'Muhammad' in Arabia up to the end of the 6th century
The Cat wrote:2) There was no ancient city known as 'Mecca' up to the end of the 7th century in Arabia
The Cat,

You wished to make this argument public though I did not wish to make it so. Therefore, as you wish I will respond to your position.


There are two issue which you are addressing.

1.There was no Muhammad
2.There was no Mecca before say 300CE

The issue of was there a man named Muhammad is irrelevant at best. The man called Muhammad had another name which is often reported. Its something which I have often made snide comments about the way muslims change their names like other people change their clothes. These names change so often that it is often hard to keep track even in this modern time. How many names, for example, does Osma bin Laden have? At the very least, he has nine that I am aware of.

So its not worth the time and effort to try and disprove Muhammad solely on the basis of his ever changing name as he plotted to make himself a god named allah. That is futile and you are forever stuck with the issue that there is just not enough information to prove your case. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that there was a real person whom the muslims call their prophet. There are plenty of first hand accounts of who he was, his descriptions and so forth.

Its just not worth debating on the what kind of evidence there may or may not be on how Muhammad got his final name.

The other part however is much much easier to debate and deal with. You suggest that Mecca was not a place that was ever a settlement. However, you are strongly in error here.

Have you ever heard of Strabo? Plinty the Elder? Cassius Dio? King Attalus III? How about Caesar Scipio?

What do all those people have in connection to Mecca? They all refer to it!

Have you ever heard of Aelius Gallus? He was the Roman governor for Egypt and where? Arabia.

When did he live and when was he the governor? 26-24BCE! Why is this important?

Because Aelius Gallus like most Roman generals and Governors had their own personal historian whose job it was to report on how they ruled their districts or to give an account of them being the world conqueror and grand leader of the Roman Legions. All Roman governors sought to be Caesar. More so early and less so late.

The point being that Aelius Gallus crossed the Red Sea from Egypt to Leuce Kome which is Jiddah. Strabo wrote this account at the direction of Aelius Gallus. This was because Caesar Augustus had order him to either make a Roman type of peace or to conquer the Arabians. After taking the city of Jiddah, he marched south securing all the known water stops of the Arabian Spice trade caravan route he was more or less welcomed with little resistance Iathrib which is Modern day Medina and left a a legion there to secure the main road and oasis. From there Aelius Gallus went conquered the second oasis site of Mekke. THIS IS THE SAME AS MODERN MECCA! At which, strabo reported as a village of half the size of Medina. Aelius Gallus left another garrison at Mekke because it was a spice cross road and he also wanted to water. Aelius Gallus continued his assault on what the Romans called Arabia Felix which at that time in 26BCE was known to the Arabians as the Kingdom of Saba and finally sieged and took the capital of Arabia at the time of Ma'rib and then went down and sieged and took the sea port of Aden in what is now Yemen where he left sizable Roman presence for several years.

The point is that there are several historical accounts which identify specifically and without a doubt the existence of Mecca. It was a small village that sat on the spice crossroads and it had the Kaaba.

The Kaaba part is reported from the historical accounts from King Attalus III. ( I will note that there is a problem in that all the kings at this time were called by the same name. They did not differentiate with I, II or III. For this reason, King Attalus II could have gone down to Arabia rather than King Attalus III as we know them. But what is known, is in the will and treasure logs from King Attalus III.

You see, King Attalus III having no living son at the time of this death, willed his kingdom in Ionia to Rome with all its holding and lands owing tribute. When Arabians killed the son of King Attilus II or III he went down and took revenge and taking the wealth that conqueror do. It is here that King Attilus states that the black stone being given to Caesar Scipio is from Arabia and from the temple of Komesh as he put it, where he broke the arm holding the stone from the statue of the temple in Mekke as the stone was being held in a golden scepter. Thus King Attalus took it for the gold not the stone itself.

Thus the Kaaba and Mecca are reported in 204BCE. There are other resources that I could bring and I do not wish to spend an hour chasing them down again. Its enough that you can go to Rome today and read the account from the will of King Attalus III and within that will was a list of the primary treasure of Pegamum. Then you have the great historian Strabo who writes about the same said place 200 years later and you have maps made around 25CE which lists Mekka as a place of water.

You have other historians like Plinty the Elder who lived between 25CE and 79CE who traveled the Arabian Spice caravan route and described the stopping points and gave names to some noted cities. What you find in his accounts is Mekke or Mecca today!

The point I was making with you Cat is that Mecca was a place known long before Muhammad. It was a place which from time to time was attacked and most likely destroyed or had its population reduced or scattered for a time. When the Romans took it in 26CE, they sent the village people into slavery. Yet, you have Plinty the Elder who visited it about 40 years later which gives that the city was a known stopping point on the spice route and had a cult following there. He never stated who the cult was dedicated to but it was assumed to be the common god or gods of Arabia at the time. Which by archeology is Hubal the moon god and his twin daughters.

Do not take my word for it. Wiki this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romans_in_ ... ite_note-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as I am sure you will find this reference fairly interesting. Its just common knowledge stuff in reality.

Better yet, go to Paris and to the Louvre Museum as they are currently displaying maps and artifacts from southern Arabia which backs up exactly what I have been saying all along. The Louvre has it broken down into two categories. Ancient Arabia to the pre Islamic period and the Islamic period to 1850CE. They have a very nice collection of stele, statues of pagan gods and some really nice Roman hoards and other roman artifacts from the period which Rome controlled most of western Arabia for about 100 years before they could no longer could keep hold of such a remote part of the Roman Empire. Aden for example was only held for roughly 5 to 10 years. The further north you travel the longer the Romans stayed until you get to the Palestinian holding which were kept strong because of the Byzantine wealth until that failed because of the spread of the disease Black Plague which came from all places Arabia!

The islamic period pretty much is just a collections of pottery, old manuscripts of varying types and sections of the earliest known written parts of the Koran. Note, that the Koran is a compiled book created after Muhammad's death. Before that time, people wrote down what they heard Muhammad say so that they could memorize it or relay to others what Muhammad had said. Which is why Muhammad got into trouble several times when people who had memorized from these early writings questioned Muhammad about something he had said but now was saying something totally different.

Pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:The point being that Aelius Gallus crossed the Red Sea from Egypt to Leuce Kome which is Jiddah.... The point is that there are several historical accounts which identify specifically and without a doubt the existence of Mecca. It was a small village that sat on the spice crossroads and it had the Kaaba.... Do not take my word for it. Wiki this...
They refer to the presence of (friendly) Romans in Hegra by the time of Trajan.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-i ... _greek.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now if you look at my threads you'll find out that it's exactly where I located 'Mecca',
viewtopic.php?p=93474#p93474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is Hegra, confirmed by the earliest qiblas direction we have, please see....
viewtopic.php?p=132807#p132807" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Muhammad: Myth vs Reality (about a year ago)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
--When Was There a Mecca?
--Who Were the Quraysh?
--Where Was Muhammad if not in Mecca?

As for Aelius Gallus his expedition resulted in a complete failure, led astray from waterless places to poisonous wells, by their Nabatean guides! If you look at the names given by Strabo there is not one hint at any Mecca at all. More so, Strabo got his informations from... Gallus, who got them from their... guides! If there was a known Mecca it would have been reported by Ptolemus quite explicitly. He didn't... google -image- Arabia Ptolemy.

We do know where this Leuke Kome was, from the 1st c. 'Periplus Of the Red Sea' depiction: It wasn't at Jeddah at all!
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-4-2005-74218.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He refers to Leuke Kome ("White Town") as the first harbour and port of call on the sailor’s way to the south. Since the departure is given not from Arsinoe (Suez) but Myos Hormos (the Mouse’s Bay), which corresponds to al Ghardaq – Hurghada in the Egyptian Red Sea coast, and the distance mentioned is 1000 to 1500 stadia (1 stadium equals 185 m), we deduce that Leuke Kome must be identified as the modern coastal town Al Wadjh.
Ancient Leuke Kome can be correctly located nearby Al Wajh and Al-Ula, way further north than Jiddah!
Image

Even Greek historians closer to the time of Muhammad (Cosmas, Procopius and Theodoratos) completely ignored this so-called huge
pilgrimage center on the well-known incense road. In my newest development I came to conclude that Al-Ula (known as al-Haram) was
indeed the Koranic al-Masjid al-Haram, that is the volcano of Hala'l Badr, in reality the biblical Mt Sinai!
Image
Indeed, we're still back nearby Hegra (AL-HIJR), ie. the Hegira, and Al-Ula (AL-HARAM), which derives from Al-Ala (the highest).

MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:Have you ever heard of Strabo? Plinty the Elder? Cassius Dio? King Attalus III? How about Caesar Scipio? What do all those people have in connection to Mecca? They all refer to it!
Why don't you bring specific sources instead of bald assertions? There's no mention of Mecca in Strabo's report.

Pliny the Elder, nor Strabo, Dio, Attalus III, reported ANYTHING on a city called Mecca (Makkah). Like it or not...
Pliny's Natural History, vol.3 (where he wrote about the spice trade)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=A0EMAAA ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suggest you make a google research: archaeology+mecca and then open what you get.
No Yemeni inscription talks about Makkah... nor does the Abraha inscription dated 552!

And there was no prophet known as Muhammad from all the external sources we have before at least 634/640. The Doctrina Jacobi states:
"What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" Thus a new thing... still unknown by 634, but yep, ALIVE!
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Komesh is originally a Hittite and Hurrian god. There are several ways to spell it... In later Babylonian texts the name is referred as Kubaba... Later it was modified to Cybele... As anyone who knows basics of Pagan Gods, Kaa'bah or Cybele is the Moon God across several religions and parts of the world. Cybele in Greek is Dionysus and later shorten to Diana the Moon Goddesss....

So, When I use Komesh, the other names which you can insert are: Hubal, Kaaba, Kaa'bah, Dionysus, Cybele, Al Lat, Allah, Asherah, Achomoth, Sin, Khons, Khanas, Khabas, Khabah, Mithras, Gaea and Luna. I limit to just this short list of names as they are only in reference to the region which applies or had influence on Arabia. Welcome to Moon God names 101 for those who are not PHD Scholars.
I found nothing on a Hittite moon god named Komesh (Kom means place). Their moon god was called Kaskuh, related to the Hurrians Kusuh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kubaba wasn't ever known in Arabia as a moon goddess. The only link between Kubaba and 'Komesh' would be in the name Karkamis
(Carchemish), of which city she was the tutelary goddess. In Ebla, Kamis wasn't a moon-god but a male sun-god (the later Chemosh).

Then again, Kubaba/Cybele wasn't really associated with Dionysos but with Attis. It is true though that this Phyrgian cult was introduced
in Rome, first when Hannibal threatened the city, that a black stone symbolized her, and that the Romans held her very highly as the
Mater Magna (Mother Earth), or Mother of the gods.

But the worship of black stones in Arabia was usually that of Venus-goddess in like Aphrodite, not the moon. It was a highly sexual...

Mount al-Lawz (biblical Mt Horeb) covered with non-volcanic black stones.
Image
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Cat,

Look, There is only one surviving book from Pliny the Elder which is actually a reedited book though not much by his nephew.

What you should be looking at and reading are his letters to Rome and to Caesar to specific questions being asked of him regarding the Eastern Provinces and so forth. The most famous of these are the letter which Pliny talks about how Rome should deal with the rise in Christianity. Its the most viewed and referred letter out of the dozes in Rome.

Secondly, you are confusing differing historians who covered differing events even though those historians do overlap in life span.

Strabo reported on the Conquest of Arabia where as Pliny the Elder just describes the trade route and discusses some particulars of certain places along the very important at that time the Spice trade which Rome wanted to control. The Work which you posted a link to is a generalized history of the world from a Roman traveler point of view. It was done so that those in Rome would know what to expect in and around the Roman Empire. But it was not the text which I was referring to.

As for locations, you will have to look to archeology to see where places are. It is known for certain that old section of Mecca and part of the Grand Mosque was built on the foundation of the Roman Fort that was established in 26BCE. Romans like they did in Spain, France, Brittan, Greece, Israel Egypt was constructed a Fort close to the religious or financial power in the region they controlled. Thus it should be of no surprise that the oldest part of the Grand Mosque uses the Roman foundation.

I understand your theory. But the truth is that Mecca was known for a good 750 years before Muhammad was even born with evidence from the Romans. Before the Roman period, you have a few maps which just refer to the location of Mecca as a place of water on the spice trade route. The name Zamzam is what I have seen on an Babylo Persian map from 270sBCE The oldest map known is a Babylonian one though that map just lists a oasis and major water stopping points and you could use it to deny Mecca as location on that map is unclear.

I would suggest you look at known stopping points on the Spice Trade. As I have stated before, why not read the White Company of Traders accounts which discusses in detail places across the middle east.

The problem is you have a couple of issues. Mekke was a crossroads village. This crosses Medina off the list. It was never a crossroads location. It was just a large Oasis stop. What does Mecca have? It is a location of an Oasis and it is on the known crossroads of the spice trade. That is where you are having problems. The other locations have to fit both known written accounts and must match archaeology. This is where you and I split on this issue and it will never be resolved.

Because I knew it was never be resolved, I asked for this subject to be discussed in private and rationally. The issue is not about Muhammad or not Muhammad. Which is off topic for this forum. You and I both know that we will not agree on this issue. You have chosen to reject anything that does not meet your prescribed theory and the sources to have attached much effort into. But then you have to deal with historical and archaeological items that your sources just do not address. Until they do or until enough evidence comes for for one of us to change, there is no longer any point in this debate.

I debate about Muhammad not about the City of Mecca. And from what you have posted, nothing has changed in my position or posts.
pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Cat...

I understand your theory. But the truth is that Mecca was known for a good 750 years before Muhammad was even born with evidence from the Romans. Before the Roman period, you have a few maps which just refer to the location of Mecca as a place of water on the spice trade route. The name Zamzam is what I have seen on an Babylo Persian map from 270sBCE The oldest map known is a Babylonian one though that map just lists a oasis and major water stopping points and you could use it to deny Mecca as location on that map is unclear.

I would suggest you look at known stopping points on the Spice Trade. As I have stated before, why not read the White Company of Traders accounts which discusses in detail places across the middle east....
Every bald assertion you've made is unsubstantiated... so, unless you can do just that, you're following a dead-end.
Zamzam on a Babylo Persian map from ~270... really! Even if so: Was it related to... Arabia and to nowadays... Mecca?
I debate about Muhammad not about the City of Mecca. And from what you have posted, nothing has changed in my position or posts.
Not even that he was still alive, out of Arabia, around 634/640, and allied with the Jews... contrary to what the Islamic tradition claims?
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Ok Cat,

Just for you.

Moon Gods for the advanced not the beginner.

Komesh was a greek spelled variant used by King Attalus III in this will to Rome. Which is why I used it.

Who is the moon god Komesh and where did it come from?

As I stated before there are many names depending on your location in the greek world, Babylonian world, Persian world or Sumerian world and yes the Hittite and Hurrian worlds.

The Hurrian world is where exactly? They are the Babylo Hittites is a brief explanation. They lived between the two empires and were eventually swallowed up when the two cultures combined.

Archaeology has shown influence between both power cultures. The Hittites to the northwest and the Mesopotamians to the south.

If you want to look at exact reference to exactly how the name made it to the 204BCE spelling, then it would be from Chemosh which come from Kamskuh which is also kasuka.

What you should also beware is that with many false gods of the past their roles change. A prime example is Apollo and Artemis. Originally, Artemis was attached with Helios and Apollo with the Moon. Later, the definitions were reversed over time. That is fact not fiction.

So it is with Chemosh, Komesh or any other spellings you can find.

Ok. Who is Chemosh? Chemosh according to according to Archaeology is found in Jordan, Syria and Babylonia as well as ancient Israel north to what is modern Turkey? He is generally a Fertility God attached mainly with the moon. You find references to this name in the Torah. Archeology links Chemosh to Astarte, Molech, and Baal.
It should be noted that Baal is often represented as both Sun , Moon and Heavens god. It is often a generic name for any number of pagan higher deity. So depending on region and time frame Baal listed worship could be to the Sun, Moon or to some star or stars. If you read the specifics from the Torah, those who did Molech, Astarte or Molech Baal type of worship was specifically fertility and sexual perversions of the Moon type. The key is the stele and representations with the Baal. If you have the sun disk, the Baal worship is to the sun. If you have the crescent moon, then its to the Moon. If there is stars or other lower markers, then it could be to a planet like Saturn, Venus or they could be denoted as a subordinate deity to the main one. Or a hierarchy set up. Again, its the stele or other information which gives which is which.

Since nearly all fertility gods or cults are to the moon, there was wide spread appeal to many people across the known world from India/ China to western Europe and saw an explosion during the Roman period of power in the world. Because of this we see people worshiping the moon deity fairly similarly for several thousand years in extreme distant cultures. Some more perverted than others. However the earlier practices were more objectionable that later ones. However, even the accounts in Roman times talks about human sacrifices as late as the middle ages. In fact, the moon baal worship in India with human sacrifices still happen in the 21st century in some of the more remote villages of India. I refer to the Child sacrifice murder trial back in 2005.

What I stated in the previous post was to give a broad scope across several cultures the name of the same Moon God. You should further note that Astarte was originally male but later grew breasts and assumed a hermaphrodite type of role.

To further make this point, it was pointed out in the Torah as well as in a few Mesopotamian tablets that there was a specific title given to the priest or king who performed the ritual rights. They were often referred to as the one who speaks the will of the god and only through this person could the people know what god wanted. In the bible, this title is referred to the pagans as Hammel as in Hammel Baal priest. You find it also as Hammel Astarte as well. The principle here is that depending on region and who was the one writing down the name of the god can change dramatically from one place to the other. It is given at King Attalus III and his scribes or learned men knew the god by the name Komesh. Yet, the same said god 200 miles away was known as Hubal and 1000 miles away in North Africa at the time of the first punic ware was known as Astarte.

Now you have Advanced Moon God name associations.

pablo

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Cat,

Get off your butt and simply go to Paris, France. Look at the documents in person and see exactly what I am referring to. Just because there is no specific wiki link for you goto does not make it incorrect. If you know of a website that posts copies of rare artifacts and super rare documents and book, then I will bow to your superior technical knowledge for those items. Its not like I have told you to believe just because I said so is not valid. Simply, get on a plane and go look at the documents yourself. Who knows they may let you take photos.

Be aware that the Vatican does not allow you to photograph nor make xerox copies from their library nor from any of their rare collections. In Paris, they did not let me take my camera into the documents exhibits as they said flashes harm the documents so they banned all photos. But you can still go and see it first hand.

In fact, if there is anyone who reads this and can visit the museum, go and post what you saw. I think it will shock Cat at what is really out there if he can get away from the computer once in a while.

pablo

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Cat,

The only two points I disagreed with your posts and only two were:

1. Muhammad was a real living person not a made up one.
2. Mecca was a known city before the 7th century CE.

All other points, I agree with you and have stated so.

For me, there is enough evidence that there was a living man named Muhammad who did 90% what the Koran says.

2. I have read and seen enough evidence that Mecca as a city was a physical place over time not a place that just sudden sprang up out of nowhere in the 7th century.

I also stated by the way, that the city of Mecca had seen times which the population was lowered or destroyed. The Romans for example sent the people into slavery in 26BCE. The Roman presence insured that the settlement would be resettled because it had a Roman legion based there.

Those are the things you will have to deal with no matter how frustrating you may find it to your theory.
pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Since nearly all fertility gods or cults are to the moon.... It is given at King Attalus III and his scribes or learned men knew the god by the name Komesh. Yet, the same said god 200 miles away was known as Hubal and 1000 miles away in North Africa at the time of the first punic ware was known as Astarte. Now you have Advanced Moon God name associations.
Your first assertion is wrong: fertility was associated with Venus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28mythology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then your jumping from Attalus' Komesh to Hubal and Astarte is childhish for anything 'advanced'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most probably Hubal wasn't a specific deity in Arabia but a generic (the Lord), so any deity such as Allah could be the Hubal of something, likely a place. And his name does not extend to central and southern Arabia (Yemen). This underlines that Hubal couldn't have been worship where nowadays Mecca stands, but further north. Again, the only fitting place for both worship would be al-Ula, really al-Ala (meaning the Highest as in surah 87)...

See: From the Hittite Alalu & Nabonidus, to the Koranic Al-Ala/Al-Aliy and the month of Aylūl...
viewtopic.php?p=99122#p99122" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And: This northern origin is emphasized by all epigraphical evidences gathered so far:
viewtopic.php?p=135050#p135050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:Get off your butt and simply go to Paris, France. Look at the documents in person and see exactly what I am referring to.
Just because there is no specific wiki link for you goto does not make it incorrect.
That there is not one single link upholding your assertions, over... the entire web is proof enough that they hold no water.

Here's an ancient map, draw by John Speed in 1626, strangely depicting Mecca as the northern part of the Red Sea and/or the Aqaba Gulfs!
Image
pablo wrote:The only two points I disagreed with your posts and only two were:
1. Muhammad was a real living person not a made up one.
2. Mecca was a known city before the 7th century CE.
1. Aren't you confusing the real living person with the story-tellers make-up, much like Robin Hood?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. All historical evidences proved you wrong. Why didn't you search archeology + mecca?
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... eology.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/q ... ology.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How Mecca was in the Paran/Midian area...
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:I also stated by the way, that the city of Mecca had seen times which the population was lowered or destroyed. The Romans for example sent the people into slavery in 26BCE. The Roman presence insured that the settlement would be resettled because it had a Roman legion based there..... It is known for certain that old section of Mecca and part of the Grand Mosque was built on the foundation of the Roman Fort that was established in 26BCE.
I challenged you to back up your assertion from Strabo himself. Instead, you stick back to your unsubstantiated mantra.

What we have is a stele written in Greek (not Latin, thus unofficial) attesting of a friendly Roman presence at Hegra/Al-Hijr.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-i ... _greek.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even your assertion that Leuke Kome was at Jeddah has been debunked: it was located nearby... Al-Ula!

And the area of Al-Ula/al-Hijr (surah 15) is exactly where the earliest qiblas were pointing to...
Image
In both the first and second civil wars, notes accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Iraq via Mecca.
Yet Mecca is southwest of Medina, and Iraq is northeast. Thus the sanctuary for Islam, according to these
traditions was at one time north of Medina, which is the opposite direction from where Mecca is today!

(Josef van Ess 1971, p.16; Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Dhahabi 1369, p.343).


Many ex-Muslims like you suffer from what I called 'Muslimness': the unshakable certainty over whatever their newly belief is...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

LOL Cat..... :lol:

First and foremost. This not get to be resolved. You like just being a pain in the arse for no reason and deliberately bring up crap and I mean CRAP that is out of date or out of the time line of history to make your points. Which is why your theory and assertions are never going to be proven correct.

Example. Fertility Gods or Goddesses for example is just another in a long line of deliberate out of time frame junk you are pulling. What you have failed to account for is that I already stated that Venus was attached to the fertility Goddesses and a couple of remote not so well known Gods. Go back and take the time to take a deep breath and reread what I already explained.

Secondly, what a bold faced lie you stated!
The Cat wrote:
pablo wrote:Since nearly all fertility gods or cults are to the moon.... It is given at King Attalus III and his scribes or learned men knew the god by the name Komesh. Yet, the same said god 200 miles away was known as Hubal and 1000 miles away in North Africa at the time of the first punic ware was known as Astarte. Now you have Advanced Moon God name associations.
Your first assertion is wrong: fertility was associated with Venus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28mythology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then your jumping from Attalus' Komesh to Hubal and Astarte is childhish for anything 'advanced'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most probably Hubal wasn't a specific deity in Arabia but a generic (the Lord), so any deity such as Allah could be the Hubal of something, likely a place. And his name does not extend to central and southern Arabia (Yemen). This underlines that Hubal couldn't have been worship where nowadays Mecca stands, but further north. Again, the only fitting place for both worship would be al-Ula, really al-Ala (meaning the Highest as in surah 87)...

See: From the Hittite Alalu & Nabonidus, to the Koranic Al-Ala/Al-Aliy and the month of Aylūl...
viewtopic.php?p=99122#p99122" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And: This northern origin is emphasized by all epigraphical evidences gathered so far:
viewtopic.php?p=135050#p135050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:Get off your butt and simply go to Paris, France. Look at the documents in person and see exactly what I am referring to.
Just because there is no specific wiki link for you goto does not make it incorrect.
That there is not one single link upholding your assertions, over... the entire web is proof enough that they hold no water.

Here's an ancient map, draw by John Speed in 1626, strangely depicting Mecca as the northern part of the Red Sea and/or the Aqaba Gulfs!
Image
pablo wrote:The only two points I disagreed with your posts and only two were:
1. Muhammad was a real living person not a made up one.
2. Mecca was a known city before the 7th century CE.
1. Aren't you confusing the real living person with the story-tellers make-up, much like Robin Hood?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. All historical evidences proved you wrong. Why didn't you search archeology + mecca?
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... eology.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/q ... ology.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How Mecca was in the Paran/Midian area...
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:I also stated by the way, that the city of Mecca had seen times which the population was lowered or destroyed. The Romans for example sent the people into slavery in 26BCE. The Roman presence insured that the settlement would be resettled because it had a Roman legion based there..... It is known for certain that old section of Mecca and part of the Grand Mosque was built on the foundation of the Roman Fort that was established in 26BCE.
I challenged you to back up your assertion from Strabo himself. Instead, you stick back to your unsubstantiated mantra.

What we have is a stele written in Greek (not Latin, thus unofficial) attesting of a friendly Roman presence at Hegra/Al-Hijr.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-i ... _greek.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even your assertion that Leuke Kome was at Jeddah has been debunked: it was located nearby... Al-Ula!

And the area of Al-Ula/al-Hijr (surah 15) is exactly where the earliest qiblas were pointing to...
Image
In both the first and second civil wars, notes accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Iraq via Mecca.
Yet Mecca is southwest of Medina, and Iraq is northeast. Thus the sanctuary for Islam, according to these
traditions was at one time north of Medina, which is the opposite direction from where Mecca is today!

(Josef van Ess 1971, p.16; Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Dhahabi 1369, p.343).


Many ex-Muslims like you suffer from what I called 'Muslimness': the unshakable certainty over whatever their newly belief is...
You say its childish to list the names of the Moon Gods and Goddesses in the region of the Middle East and into Arabia. Ok, what ever.

What I did was list the differing names of the Moon Gods in the area in question. You want to call that childish.... What ever again! The point I was making is that you can travel a few hundred to a thousand mile and through several different countries that we know in the Modern world and get have people calling the same god with the same general appearance a different name that somewhere else.

Prime example of that is the Greek names and the Roman names for the more common higher deities. They did not use the same names. Why? Difference in culture and language. Even in places which have closely similar names have differing names and you can find that the role and gender of the God may be different between two cities that are separated by as little as 20 miles.

I used an Eastern Ionian variant of the name because it was written that way. It was not a name I just pulled out of nowhere. Honestly, list every name as well as its variants of the of every tribe, people, language or kingdom which had an effect in the middle east just for the Moon God never mind the others. Its somewhere around 800 names. The problem is that not every archaeological find is on the web at this point in time. Some of the most rare books which Islam itself controls and does not want the general public to know about are quietly sitting in locked cabinets until some scholar requests and then receives permission to view those items.

The problem I guess from your perspective is that I am pointing to sources you have not seen and most likely would never even bother to try and see. If its not on wiki, then by your standard its not correct or in error. Just for the record, Wiki is not always right! The wiki web stuff has roughly 25% errors in what it gives or it only gives very basic information and not the complete information needed for a topic.

So if you want to claim victory because your too lazy to go to a research library or visit some of the world's great museum which has documents and artifacts on this topic, then that is your problem not mine.

In over 25 years of challenging people, no one has ever said the book or artifact that I have quoted or referred to does not exist nor the reference in those items not there. The few have done what I suggested and came back surprised by the information. Its like visiting a historical site that a history book and popular culture tells one thing and you see it in person and its not like what you are told.

This is what I am referring. I am just asking you to get off your butt and go and see first hand the things that I am talking about. Walk for example the Court of Oranges and see the pagan symbols of the crescent moon at the mosque in Cadiz. Go to Mecca the place we are talking about and see the Roman Fort foundation which is still visible at the Grand Mosque. Go to the well and see the pagan inscriptions on the back side of the flow stone. Try and wiki that if you can! Its something that you see when you have been there in person!

pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:You like just being a pain in the arse for no reason and deliberately bring up crap and I mean CRAP that is out of date or out of the time line of history to make your points.....
No reason? Here, the unsubstantiated (and debunked) crap is: :reading: :lotpot:
pablo wrote:--The point being that Aelius Gallus crossed the Red Sea from Egypt to Leuce Kome which is Jiddah.
--Aelius Gallus went conquered the second oasis site of Mekke. THIS IS THE SAME AS MODERN MECCA!
--The Kaaba part is reported from the historical accounts from King Attalus III.
--You have other historians like Plinty the Elder... What you find in his accounts is Mekke or Mecca today!
:nono:

--Part of the Grand Mosque was built on the foundation of the Roman Fort that was established in 26BCE.
--Mecca was known for a good 750 years before Muhammad was even born with evidence from the Romans.
--The name Zamzam is what I have seen on an Babylo Persian map from 270sBCE
--Mekke was a crossroads village. This crosses Medina off the list.... What does Mecca have?
It is a location of an Oasis and it is on the known crossroads of the spice trade.
:hangover: :coffee:

--Komesh was a greek spelled variant used by King Attalus III in this will to Rome.
--Chemosh which come from Kamskuh which is also kasuka.
--Nearly all fertility gods or cults are to the moon
--The moon baal worship in India with human sacrifices still happen in the 21st century
--It is given at King Attalus III and his scribes or learned men knew the god by the name Komesh.
Yet, the same said god 200 miles away was known as Hubal and 1000 miles away in North Africa
at the time of the first punic ware was known as Astarte.
:stretcher:
These aren't just childish screed but plain distortions, rants and/or utter LIES.
pablo wrote:Go to Mecca...
:D Image
For a laugh see what Moslem (instead of Muslim) means: http://hnn.us/articles/524.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:I am pointing to sources you have not seen...
Neither are they reported by -anybody- else... :roflmao:
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Not reported by anyone else...... :protest: I have given you several historians. You just want to focus on the last one I gave as it was nearly 40 to 70 years from the previous example and 300 years from the first.

King Attalus III's will has been reported before and there are about two dozen of scholar papers and a couple books on what is in the will. Most of the papers are either in Latin or Italian with one in French and three maybe four in English. You will even find some parts of the will on the web if you are willing to search hard enough as I think on a JARS site which posted a paper on this subject. So you may need help from a professor or pay a fee to access that type of site.

As I stated, Get Off your butt and deal with the truth :hiding:

I gave a very good reference. The Strabo account. I did not give the extreme full details of Aelius Gallus as it was unnecessary. Anyone who has read the accounts from Strabo in its complete context knows that the guides sent the Romans into not just to waterless places and wells that were poisoned just for the Romans but also led the Roman Legions into a couple of ambushes.

Never the less, Aelius Gallus did take cities and did take known Oasis and cities as far south as Aden in Yemen. The Romans built forts at pretty much anywhere where there was water for the marching Legions.

Although you like to Flame at will :flamethrower: , How are you going to explain that the oldest section of the Grand Mosque in Mecca was built on a Roman Fort foundation? I am pretty sure you are looking intently for some cheap explanation for that little truth. :throw:

Why not do as I ask? Go to a research Library and look these things up and request copies of some of the items. :library:

Yea it can be expensive as some cost more than others. Some you will have to go to that specific library to view. Especially the extremely rare items. So you will need to visit Rome both the Vatican library and the National Museum, Damascus, Mecca, Harvard, Yale, British Museum in London, Louvre in Paris, Cairo, Alexandria, Istanbul and if you have time a visit to Washington DC will also provide some interesting items from the Library of Congress.

Sometimes you just have to see it to believe it. Unfortunately, You do not want to leave you backyard.

pablo

booktalker
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by booktalker »

Guys, no matter what your differences, your posts are by far the most interesting on FFI - I'm thoroughly enjoying the debate and hearing your opposing views.

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:I gave a very good reference. The Strabo account. I did not give the extreme full details of Aelius Gallus as it was unnecessary.
Wow, unnecessary !?! That statement resume all of your gibberish... historical beliefs!
The proof stands upon you, yet you came with nothing but mere too jumpy allegations.

If you're too lazy to bring me something from Strabo mentioning Mecca then that's YOUR problem. I've proven from the 'Periplus
of the Red Sea' that his Leuke Kome wasn't in Jiddah but nearby the actual Al Wajh. That's only underlying my point and that of
the earliest qiblas: the ancestral Makkah was in the area of Badr/al-Ula (Dedan), Hegra and Tayma, crossroad oasis all of them!

The Incense Road, no Mecca but Al-Ula/Al-Hijr (and Leuce Come) as important crossroads...
Image

Now, I've checked his city names in Arabia and found no references to Makkah or Mekke, although he mentions quite a few places (Ararene,
Negrani, Asca, Athrula, Marsiaba, etc). He said they stopped in a fertile country near a river (Minae, ie the Minaean country in old Yemen).
Nowadays Mecca never has been an oasis, where caravans stopped on their trading routes, that' why it's unknown -too -by Greek historians
such as Cosmas, Procopius and Theodoratos, much closer to the time of Muhammad. No wonder recent historians like Patricia Crone found
nothing on the traditional Mecca, nothing except a Samaritan manuscript relating b'kh to Bekka, still pointing at the Northwest of Arabia!
pablo wrote:Mekke was a crossroads village. This crosses Medina off the list. It was never a crossroads location. It was just a large Oasis stop. What does Mecca have? It is a location of an Oasis and it is on the known crossroads of the spice trade. That is where you are having problems.
On his way back, Gallus stopped at places Strabo called Chaala, Malothas, finally at 'Negra' (Hegra) then back to Egypt.
No Mekke in sight, but Hegra (al-Hijr) all the way, forming with al-Ala and Hala'l Badr the Koranic al-Masjid al-Haram...

37.137-138: And lo! ye verily pass by (the ruin of) them in the morning... And at night-time... No such ruins at Mecca ever!
Image

Your false 'Mekke' is most probably this Old Marib in Yemen sieged in... 25BCE
Image
They may have taken foundations from there to nowadays Mecca. Who knows?

Contrary to the Islamic tradition reporting how Abraha was defeated at Mecca by al-Muttalib,
we actually have his inscription in which there's no... al-Muttalib, no Qureysh and no Mecca !
Image

Transcription (by the Smithsonian Institute):
"With the power of the Almighty, and His Messiah King Abraha Zeebman, the King of Saba'a, Zuridan, and Hadrmaut and Yemen and the
tribes (on) the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle against the tribe of Ma'ad (in) the battle of al-Rabiya in the month
of "Dhu al Thabithan" and fought all of Bani A'amir and appointed the King Abi Jabar with Kinda and Al, Bishar bin Hasan with Sa'ad, Murad,
and Hadarmaut in front of the army against Bani Amir of Kinda. and Al in Zu Markh valley and Murad and Sa'ad in Manha valley on the way
to Turban and killed and captured and took the booty in large quantities and the King and fought at Halban and reached Ma'ad and took booty
and prisoners, and after that, conquered Omro bin al-Munzir. (Abraha) appointed the son (of Omro) as the ruler and returned from Hal Ban
(halban) with the power of the Almighty in the month of Zu A'allan in the year sixty-two and six hundred.
"

Since the Abraha inscription is by now ascertained 552AD, we can confidently state:
-- Abraha won.
-- There was no Mecca on his way...
-- No mention of elephants (needing a ton of water supply).
-- No mention of al-Muttalib nor of the Quraysh tribe.
-- Dated 552AD, it destroys the whole hadiths fabrication on Muhammad (?-?).


http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... man_av.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The accuracy of their so-called "Sahih" Hadiths cannot be trusted because the "chains of transmission" may now be broken
- most events in the life of Muhammad has been pushed back 18 years and gaps are bound to open up somewhere in the
chains between Muhammad and the time of Bukhari, Muslim, and the other collectors....
Also: http://www.free-minds.org/language" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No doubt: Mecca wasn't where it's actually located but way further north, ie. Al-Ula/Al-Hijr, the Koranic Al-Masjid al-Haram!

Again:
MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
--The Abraham/Ishmael legend
--How Nowadays Mecca Doesn't Fit the Bill !
--The Scripts' Evidence is pointing North
--Al-Ula (al-Haram) & Hegra (Al-Hijr) as Mecca?
--How Mt Horeb is Mt Al-Laws
--From Mount Horeb to Mount Sinai (Al-Masjid al-Haram)
Etc... Etc...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Cat,

I did not feel it was necessary to write the full context of the Strabo Account. You think it was. What ever. The account is there for anyone who wants to read it. Its not like its hard to find.

Secondly, who cares if the Romans did not go back through the same towns that they took when they first arrived in Arabia. The fact that they went there once is more than enough.

You still are avoiding one of the biggest if not the second most important point. You have avoided it like the plague.

The old part of the Grand Mosque is built on a Roman Fort foundation. As any archaeologist will admit and what every historian will give is this:

Where there is a Roman Fort, a small village or city was there. Does not matter for how long the fort was there. It could have been there 10 or 500 years. That is unimportant. The fact is there was settlement which is what I was objecting to.

I can not give the exact day that Mecca was originally founded. Neither can you. I can show that it happened before your date which was my objection in the first place and what started this debate. Does it matter if Mecca had another name or not? In my book, no. From my understanding, Mecca was just referred to as Zamzam. by the Arabs and the Bablyo Persians whom the Arabs defeated.

We are going around in circles and there will never be a meeting of the minds in my book.

But I only objected in the first place 2 things.
1. Muhammad was a real person no matter how many names he went by over the course of his life. Neither of us could possibly account for all the possible names he had and its futile to try.

2. Mecca as a settlement, village or city was in existence before your time frame. You specifically gave 7th century, but I gave you a wide time line slack to and stated before 300CE as a very broad understanding of your comments which you gave as 7th century.

I am willing to concede that its possible that the Modern final name of Mecca may be a late variant. But the city was there at the time when Strabo gave the account of the Roman conquest of Arabia. Only because the Grand Mosque was originally built on the foundation of a Roman Fort. That means that the Romans were there for a period of time. Rome controlled the Western Arabia from Palestine (originally called Judea at the time of Strabo) to Aden in what is now Yemen. Rome held Aden for roughly 10 years and slowly began to give up territory until it reached northern Arabia which was still held by Romans who by then were the Byzantines and after Muhammad had died. There is no record that I am aware of as to when the Roman fort at Mecca was abandoned or destroyed.

That is the extent to which is known. From those basic facts, we can make some statements. We know for example that Rome built forts during the time of the Conquest to secure water, villages or cities of importance. Where you have Roman forts, at least a small village was there if not a city of average or greater size. This is based on other Roman fort sites across the middle east, Northern Africa to Europe to even places like England. Since we know when those projects were started, we have a minimum starting point.

That minimum starting point predates your time line. Which was my objection in that the City of Mecca no matter what it was called by whomever, was there long before your time line!

pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Mecca may be a late variant. But the city was there at the time when Strabo gave the account of the Roman conquest of Arabia. Only because the Grand Mosque was originally built on the foundation of a Roman Fort.
Foundations for a temple were usually taken from some ruins around like those of Marib. So your assertion holds no water at all.

There is no mentions of Mekke in Strabo, Pliny's or Dio Cassius accounts. So you're only repeating unfounded allegations again...

Aelius Gallus' journey by Strabo:
Gallus -­> Leuke Kome; -> (many days to) Aretas; -> (30 days to) Ararene; -> (50 days to) Negrani; -> (6 days to) -> Asca; -> Athrula;
-> Marsiaba (left the siege after 6 days); -> back to Negrani; -> 6 months of wanderings!!!; JOURNEY BACK: Negrani (ie. Najran...)
to the ''7 wells''; -> then to Chaalla; -> Malothas; -> Egra (11 days back to Myus Hormus, in Egypt). Whole way back: 60 days!

When you write: ''Rome held Aden for roughly 10 years'' you show how you haven't read Strabo properly... For Gallus was stopped
at Marsiaba and never reached Aden. Strabo doesn't even mention Eudaemon (Aden) in his account. You have been much confused
with the Gaius Caesar's expedition (son of Germanicus, in the reign of Claudius) as reported by the Periplus, but the name itself
was a typist error, for it relates to a prince. This prince, according to Strabo, was the leader of the pirates hiding in/around Aden.
The Romans had them destroyed and subdued, not Aden (Eudaemon) itself which was hold by the Himyar allies! See note 236:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=9y7nTpF ... us&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_o ... hraean_Sea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (dated 40/50CE)
http://nabataea.net/who1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Arab Seafaring in ancient and medieval times, by GF Hourani & John Carswell
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZDh2KKS ... us&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pablo wrote:Muhammad was a real person no matter how many names he went by over the course of his life.
External evidences, such as the Abraha inscription and the Doctrina Jacobi are showing that this 'real' person was quite different
than the one portrayed in the hadiths, and so was Mecca. Since you came with sweet nothings to disprove one single fact I gave
above, your beliefs are just that: uncorroborated personal wishes.
pablo wrote:The City of Mecca no matter what it was called by whomever, was there long before your time line!
You're partly right here since Mecca refers to the area of Al-Ula, the old city of the Lihyanites also called Dedan or Al-Haram,
ie. the Koranic Masjid al-Haram (the area including the nearby volcano of Hala-'l Badr which is... the biblical Mt. Sinai)!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala-%27l_Badr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On and on, Strabo's account is rather proving that there was NO place known as Mecca by his days but Hegra (his Egra), that is Al-Ula!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Ula" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Actually, Cat

Strabo specifically states Mekke. Plinty the Elder also lists Mekke in his letter to Rome on the Spice Trade to Aden where he talks about what is on the Spice road and where he answers a question about Frankincense specifically and how it gets to Rome.

Dio Cassius for example only discusses the return of the black stone to Mekke in one of his histories of Rome. It was a one sentence reference as far as I remember.

Stop wasting my time with your baseless insults because you can not deal with what Historians from the past have said.

pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Strabo specifically states Mekke. Plinty the Elder also lists Mekke in his letter to Rome on the Spice Trade to Aden where he talks about what is on the Spice road and where he answers a question about Frankincense specifically and how it gets to Rome.

Dio Cassius for example only discusses the return of the black stone to Mekke in one of his histories of Rome. It was a one sentence reference as far as I remember. Stop wasting my time with your baseless insults because you can not deal with what Historians from the past have said.

pablo
Liar. Come on, prove me wrong.

Expecting more wishful nothings... :whistling:
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

:roflmao:

Is that it? :shock:

What ever..... I am done with you... I gave you references which anyone can look at and see. You are just too damn lazy to go and look at them.

pablo

booktalker
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by booktalker »

Don't stop now! I think it's absolutely essential to establish the facts here as far as possible.

This thread is an invaluable resource, and while you two may not agree on certain elements, you are certainly both extremely knowledgable about these matters and I think you are making an invaluable contribution to revealing the truth and lies behind the early days of Islam. I believe that what is being discovered now could, in the future, lead to some big changes, so it's crucial not to give up at this point, and to dig as deep as possible and keep on debating and bringing out incontrovertible evidence until there is concensus.

I also think that Ali Sina should change his challenge to Muslims now, and ask scholars to bring evidence to show that Mecca and Muhammad did exist, and join in with this debate...

I am no expert, just an interested observer, but if there are Roman foundations under the mosque, maybe the fort was abandoned / forgotten about and found later in the 8th century and used as the base for the new building, as Mecca was being built?

BT x

Post Reply