Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

His life, his examples and his psychology
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skynightblaze
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by skynightblaze »

Bmz wrote:
Spoiler! :
Skynightblaze bin Abu Hurairah wrote:

@Egyptian muslim

Your article mentions 4:86 which is a medinan surah which I failed to address in my previous post .Lets see the context of the verse 4:86..

chapter 4 verse 86.
When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things. .

Ibn Kathir on 4:86 wrote:Allah said,

[وَإِذَا حُيِّيتُم بِتَحِيَّةٍ فَحَيُّواْ بِأَحْسَنَ مِنْهَآ أَوْ رُدُّوهَآ]

(When you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or (at least) return it equally.) meaning, if the Muslim greets you with the Salam, then return the greeting with a better Salam, or at least equal to the Salam that was given. Therefore, the better Salam is recommended, while returning it equally is an obligation.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=11861" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you read the underlined part? It says if MUSLIM GREETS you and not a non muslim so 4:86 is in respect of muslims rather than non muslims.

I just read the post by skynightblaze aka Abu Hurairah of FFI:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=82&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The ignorant fool quotes the verse 4:86 of Qur'aan, which simply means:

"When you are greeted, extend your greeting in the same manner or make it even better."

That is the simple message and it was addressed to Muslims.

Here, the FFI goon Skynightblaze Ibne Abu Hurairah, who cannot understand Qur'aan at all, goes on with his stupid, idiotic and hilarious analysis, seeking help from Tafsir, which had addressed various issues.

Have a look at the ignorant fool's idiotic comment emboldened in color.

Qur'aan does not even say "When you are greeted by a Muslim".

And here we have Skynightblaze Bin Abu Hurairah!

http://free-islam.net/modules.php?name= ... 91&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mate I really think you should be nominated as the 8th wonder of the world. I have never seen a person writing gibberish time and again with full dedication as you have been doing all these years.Its time that Oxford dictionary considers introducing the word BMZ in its dictionary as an antonym to sensible/intelligent/wise/clever .

I used to believe that trolls add nuisance value to the forum but now after reading your posts it just occured to me that trolls like you deserve a special place in the forum as you do contribute significantly to the forum.Now the question is how????? The logic is that if everyone was sensible then what would be so special about being a sensible person? Obviously nothing! You would be treated just as another sensible person !! people wouldnt feel you being as someone special. After reading your posts I am sure people understand dire need of being coherent and sensible So you see the respect the intelligent folks get is because we have trolls like you who create the urgent need to read something coherent and gibberish free!

Anyway as usual you answered nothing about the questions that I raised to defend the authenticity of Abu Huraira.Now coming the 4:86 you claim that quran doesnt mention greeting only the muslims because you are a quran only troll so let me defend this too.

If you use only quran then we have a contradiction in the quran.see how..

5.51.
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

If 4:86 applies to jews and christian too then it would mean you can greet the jews and christians too but then this verse 5:51 is a problem because it tells you exactly the oppposite . It tells you not to take them as friends and further goes to say it anyone turns to them(jews and christians) they would be amongst the jews and christians so considering this situation how appropriate would be of your fake prophet to ask you in the quran to greet jews and christians ?? Greetings are exchanged to express cordiality/frienship so we have an internal contradiction in the quran if we are to accept that 4:86 applies to jews and christians too.

The only way out is to accept that verse 4:86 doesnt apply to jews and christians but then you have to accept that you fake prophet prevented muslims befriending jews and christians.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

yeezevee
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by yeezevee »

Bmz wrote:
"Skynightblaze bin Abu Hurairah"
let me change that name to "Skynightblaze bin ibn Abu Hurairah"

now SKB ready enter in to Sad's house to become sodom

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skynightblaze
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by skynightblaze »

yeezevee wrote:
Bmz wrote:
"Skynightblaze bin Abu Hurairah"
let me change that name to "Skynightblaze bin ibn Abu Hurairah"

now SKB ready enter in to Sad's house to become sodom
:lol:.Do you think i am like bro BMZ and bro Ahmed who practice this ritual daily?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

calhounite
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by calhounite »

that one stuck in his ass and allah said cudn't use more than 3 and ass still crappy? guessed already? ..havn't read the thread

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?
Image
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

wakeup
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by wakeup »

I will be very frank and truthful.

To understand Muhammad you have to read his entire biography. He had severe hatred for women but only some women who treated him poorly from his birth on.
Then an older lady literally molested him when he was in 20s and kept him in control. Then the guy became free, declared himself prophet and then he began raping and indulging with any or every single woman he could get. His conduct was the same that you find in serial killers.

Today he would have been labelled as Serial Killer but he also had great desire for physical sexual pleasures even though he was as sadistic as many people who use ISLAMIC label on themselves.

He was not really kissing the black stone but licking the vagina of ANY woman who was available. Muslims can give their lives fighting over this issue but they are nothing but stupid morons. Muhammad was not a spiritual or religious man but a cold blooded murderer who did all in his capacity to destroy human life and more specially women's whose husbands he killed and then raped them and their daughters.

He was the most horrible disgusting criminal whom 1.x billion without any real knowledge worship him. That does not mean anything. A criminal is a criminal.
If there was freedom of choice most religions would die an early death. All evil religions are cancer to the body of humanity. You are the oncologist please radiate this cancer with your enlightened knowledge. Islam will die a death soon. Meeks will inherit all and not the oppressors.


pablo
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

WHY did Muhammad kiss that particular stone?

That is very very simple. That particular stone was dedicated to the Moon God which Muhammad called Allah. In Arabia, the stone was the stone of Komesh Those who are not aware of what are the rights of Komesh let me explain. Komesh is a fertility God that is both Male and Female. In other parts of the World like Greece, the Female variant is used only. It is unclear if the Arabs of the time saw Komesh as Male or Female or both at the same time. Since so much was destroyed. However the Interior of the Kaba has inscriptions from the Babylonian period from which it was built. It was dedicated to Komesh. In Greece it is Diana and also Aphrodite also claimed that role in some parts of the Greek world the kissing of a stone. These stones were set to look like a female part because it was used in fertility rights.

Back to Komesh. The rule of Komesh is that a child without blemish being between 6 and 8 years old would be crowned princess of spring. This child would then be treated like the highest royalty from the Winter solstice to the Spring equinox. At such time, a chosen person either a king or priest would take the young child to the alter of Komesh. IE the Kaba. Where they would Rape her before the the viewing crowd. They would then slay the girl and pour her blood over the black stone at which the pagans would circle the kaba stopping to kiss the blood stained stone to bring about good fortune and sexual fertility. For women it means they would become fertile and bear children. For men, it means they would be able to perform sexually. The end of the festival the degrades into orgies.

When Muhammad was a child and living with his grandfather, He witnessed these events. After all , Muhammad's grandfather was a priest of the kaba and of Komesh referred to in Arabia as Allah. That is fact not fiction. Truth sometimes hurts when its very specific like this.

Anyway, Muhammad liked the fertility rights and like the power of those in charge who could have what ever female they wanted. This is why Muhammad took Aisha and made a claim on another little girl who was not even old enough to walk to make her his wife!

Muhammad was a sick bastard!
pablo

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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

I realized that few people are scholars and have access to the proper documents and resources.

My wife asked a question about: Where did Komesh come from? She was not aware of how it came about. I then realized that basically few people maybe as few as two dozen people have any clue who Komesh really is.

Komesh is originally a Hittite and Hurrian god. There are several ways to spell it. I chose the English variant from the German scholars of the early 20th century. For a specific look at a picture of Komesh with the word Komesh, visit Egypt and Alexandria. Go to the Burial Temple of Komesh. You will see more than you would ever wish. The temple was constructed during the conquest of Upper Egypt which is well documented for the Hyksos, Hittite and Hurrian periods.

As I stated, Komesh is Hittite predominant but also early Hurrian and was adopted by the Babylonians. In later Babylonian texts the name is referred as Kubaba and in the in 2nd century BCE pagan bowls from Arabia to Babylonia you see the name modified to Kab'bah. Later it was modified to Cybele as the Baybalonian language became more Persian with heavy Hindu influence. As anyone who knows basics of Pagan Gods, Kaa'bah or Cybele is the Moon God across several religions and parts of the world. Cybele in Greek is Dionysus and later shorten to Diana the Moon Goddesss. Thus in Mecca, the Kaa'bah is named after the Moon God and was his temple complex with alter which is to the east of the Kab'bah because the door faces the rising moon. In fact, the door of the Kaaba is oriented so that the door lines up with the Lunar equinox. Later the Arabians shortened the name to Kaaba. It should also be noted that the extreme southern tribes of Arabia especially Yemen referred to this God as Hubal. The pronunciation has more to do with language variation and localized understandings and dialects from the Babylonian Aramaic, or Babylo- Persian Syriac which Mani spoke and wrote is the most used and documented variant found across the middle east.

So, When I use Komesh, the other names which you can insert are: Hubal, Kaaba, Kaa'bah, Dionysus, Cybele, Al Lat, Allah, Asherah, Achomoth, Sin, Khons, Khanas, Khabas, Khabah, Mithras, Gaea and Luna. I limit to just this short list of names as they are only in reference to the region which applies or had influence on Arabia.

Welcome to Moon God names 101 for those who are not PHD Scholars.

pablo

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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by booktalker »

Hi pablo - interesting information about the kaaba. One thing, though - you say:
When Muhammad was a child and living with his grandfather, He witnessed these events. After all , Muhammad's grandfather was a priest of the kaba and of Komesh referred to in Arabia as Allah. That is fact not fiction. Truth sometimes hurts when its very specific like this.
How can you say with such certainty that what you said about Muhammad as a child is fact not fiction? Evidence suggests otherwise - maybe you haven't been watching The Cat's posts over the last few months, which you might find of interest... happy reading!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes

BT x

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RozaBal
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by RozaBal »

Prophet Muhammad was the greatest man ever lived

Prophet Muhammad never kissed black stone. This is a propaganda of Persian Hadith imams who invented hadiths 300 yrs after Prophet. They were liar enemy of Islam disguised Zoroastrians with Muslim names.
Do u not wonder that Prophet Muhammad was Makkan and he never did even Hajj!! So can he kiss black stone?
He only visited Majad al Haram to deliver his final Sermon.
which is as under:

But the oldest historiacl records show that following are the words that Prophet Muhammad spoke in his last sermon:

In the year 632 CE (tenth year of Hijrah), the exalted Prophet came back to Makkah for the Final Pilgrimage. People had kept joinining the Noble Caravan on its way to Makkah and there was a congregation of 140,000 people whom the Prophet (S) addressed from a mountaintop:

"O mankind! I believe we will not meet in this Congregation again. Remember, your blood (life), your property and your honor is sacred unto each other. Very soon you will have to explain your actions before Allah.

O People! Your Sustainer Lord is One and your ancestry is common. No black is superior to a white, and no white is superior to a black, and no Arab is better than a non-Arab and no non-Arab is better than an Arab.

Honor is the birthright of every human being. The only criterion of superiority amongst you is nothing but good conduct.

Treat those under your care equitably. Be kind to your servants. Feed them what you eat and clothe them as you clothe.

This day, the ways of the Jahiliyyah (the Age of Ignorance) are trampled under my feet. All bloodshed of the Jahiliyyah is declared null and void. This day, I revoke all previous warfare, contention, bloodshed, and chain revenge. I am the first one to forgive the murder committed against my family, that of Rabee'ah bin Harith.

All usury (interest on money) of Jahiliyyah is null and void from this day on. First of all, I revoke the interest owed to my family on behalf of my uncle Abbas bin Muttalib.

O Men! Be fearful of Allah in all matters concerning women. They have rights upon you as you have rights upon them. Treat them well and be kind to them. Remember, they are your companions, colleagues, and partners in life.

Just as you honor this month, this day and this place, likewise your blood and property is inviolable unto one another. All believers are brothers and sisters unto another. Nothing from a believer is permissible unto another unless it is given with cheerful consent.

Remember that everyone is a shepherd. You will be questioned about those under your care. If a non-Muslim were wronged in our State, I would personally plead on his or her behalf. Avoid extremes in Deen [some say religion]. Peace, O Mankind! Peace.

O People! I am leaving behind one thing among you. If you hold it fast, you will never go astray. What is that thing? - The Book of Allah. Even if an Ethiopian slave is chosen among you as Ameer (Ruler) and he takes you along the Book of Allah, obey him and follow him. Serve your Sustainer Lord by serving His creation and you will enter Paradise.

pablo
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

booktalker wrote:Hi pablo - interesting information about the kaaba. One thing, though - you say:
When Muhammad was a child and living with his grandfather, He witnessed these events. After all , Muhammad's grandfather was a priest of the kaba and of Komesh referred to in Arabia as Allah. That is fact not fiction. Truth sometimes hurts when its very specific like this.
How can you say with such certainty that what you said about Muhammad as a child is fact not fiction? Evidence suggests otherwise - maybe you haven't been watching The Cat's posts over the last few months, which you might find of interest... happy reading!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes

BT x

The Short answer to your question is more than likely the other way around. I was on FFI back when it was in its early history. I posted on Muhammad and his life for several years. All my research is my own! I think The Cat will even admit this truth.

There really is quiet a bit written about Muhammad and his life. However, 100% including the Koran was written after Muhammad had died. The Koran was then compiled from several sources. It was then that people needed more clarity because the Koran is not chronological, nor it is written for clear understanding the meanings which Muhammad had for certain events. It was at this point that those like Aisha, and his more powerful followers who rose to power after the power vacuum split the muslim world. This is also brought about the Hadiths to address the errors withing the compiled Koran. There are many independent writings from many of the early Caliphates where the first ones knew Muhammad. They are often found in the closed sections of many Mosques or Libraries in the Middle East or in the special sections of Rare Books within Western Museums or University Libraries where access is by appointment.

The appointment part is more recent and was put into place in the early 1990s. This was done to prevent Muslim extremist from destroying some of these works because they are not flattering to Muhammad. The British Muslim had a couple of pages of a rare book damaged by one where another scholar with a cane clubbed him to the ground to prevent the rare book from being destroyed. After this event, much was done to protect the rare collections from being destroyed. Having spent years in Saudi Arabia studying at the Grand Mosque with the idea at the time to become a Mullah. However, I found that the more I researched and the more I uncovered about Islam and Muhammad I could not be a Muslim and rejected it as a False Religion that was created to worship and promote Satan!

I would suggest that you spend time reading all the known resources about Muhammad and what they all say concerning Muhammad and his early life.

Secondly, even with the little that is written about Muhammad before he was an adult, you need to know what was the role of people in 500CE and the social structure of the times. Even within the Koran, we find that Muhammad referred to himself in jobs that were exclusively reserved for slaves or indentured servants that was still the case even as late as the early 20th century. However, in the middle east in 500 to 800CE these roles were extremely rigid and normally people never outlived the stigma of such positions. Even in the west the stigma was strong. This is why many people from many parts of the world were willing to travel to the Americas under the indentured servant common practice. There are well documented cases of slaves who worked out deals to secure their freedom in places like North Africa, Europe and even the Turkish Empire to be a servant in the Americas. Not all came to the British Colonies of what would become United State or Canada. In fact, the rise of Black slaves prevented the use of indentured servants in North America by 1740CE. Thus most found their way to South America or the Windward Islands.

I am explaining this to you for your understanding. Muhammad from his own words and by stating what his role and jobs were gives people like me and now you a 100% understanding his social status and position in Arabia. Muhammad stated according to Ubadah ibn as-Samit that Muhammad did not like his Grandfather. You also need to understand that his so called uncle was not a blood relative but and adoptive one.

pablo

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Hi pablo. Great to see you back. I was wondering if you could give more info about the indentured servants in the 500-800AD time period. I know about the Americas bit since I studied that in a world history class. I am not very knowledgeable about the early medieval period especially the Byzantine Empire.
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pablo
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

That is a huge subject on its own even with the limit you put on it.

Basically, there are three classes of slavery in the middle ages and within the period you asked.

First is the pure slave. They were often taken from conquered people or born into slavery. This form of slavery is pretty much what you see in the Americas especially in the United States with the black slaves. The slave merchants would pay certain African tribes to capture or conquer other tribes which were then sold to slaver ship captains which then later were sold on auction block in the Americas. The children of those slaves were bonus and why there was specific breeding farms for slaves with certain attributes.

The second is indentured service slavery. This more or less is the most common form of slavery across most of the known world. In this form, a person either on his own accord or by judgment of a ruler or official is sent into slavery. Most common reason for people to be in this type is debt. The person sold at auction just like any common slave. The difference is that in some lands there was a common known rule or a written law which stated how much a person earned against that debt. However, the most common method is a set period of time. A person sold in this fashion could be sold for a little as a few months though generally 3 years was most common lowest time. Longest time is for life. The spouse and children are not slaves but are at the mercy of the society if they could not find a way to earn a living. In many case, families indentured themselves to be a servant for a period of time but most often they generally remained a servant and a slave for life because of corruption. Indentured servants were charged with the food they ate, the clothes they wore and if anything got broken or ruined, they were charged with its replacement.

You will find all forms of this type from the Bible to the White company of Traders who kept a running diary of accounts of the trips and events. It was done originally to keep track of sales and transactions but is invaluable in its comments on customs and societies for about a 1000 years as the caravan was handed down from father to son, Father to son until caravans no longer found it necessary to run a baggage train of a few dozen to as many as 2000 with a couple hundred soldiers. The Year of Jubilee was set as the generalized term limit or seven years. Thus the indentured service period was calculated to how long it was to the next year of Jubilee when by law, all indentured servants were free and could then reside in the land of their inheritance.

In the bible again, you find Joseph who was sold to a caravan who then sold him to an official in Egypt. Caravans often bought children and slaves. Their roles were the care taking of the animals. Feeding, Watering, making sure they they were brushed down at the end of the day and so forth. The freemen of the Caravans looked after the goods and made the deals. Slaves did not do that.
When Muhammad said he took care of the Camels and horses, he basically stated he was a slave. Because he later worked with merchandise did marry the widow of the Caravan owner, This gives that he was indentured for a period of time. Its unknown as to the length of that time. Generally, boys were indentured until they were considered an adult or roughly late teens to early 20s. Muhammad was sold somewhere before he was a teenager. So I suspect it was a 10 year period of his service. Remember, someone sold him. Someone made money on that sale. From the sources it was his Grandfather as he had no other close relative to take him and according to Muhammad himself none of his blood relatives wanted him after his mother died. It should also be noted that Muhammad lived outside the city of Mecca at the time of his mother's death. This means that she was not cared for and was rejected by the family of her husband. Otherwise, she and Muhammad would have been living in the house of one of the relatives which was the common thing in that period. Something to consider.

The last is Royal or High born rule often called Chattel Slavery.

This last one is seen in the west more so in England where it remained very strong until the early 1900s. In this form, people were slaves or servants of the one who owns the land. Thus, the Lord of the land had any and all rights over the people in that land. In this case, the serfs are locked by poverty to a given lord and were taxed according to their abilities. In the middle ages, this was how they kept people from migrating from one lord to another. Or an evil lord verses a good lord and the people leaving one for the other. The taxation was set by royal decree and the people were assigned to a given lord. The Lords could also engage Freemen whom were paid to come to the lands to improve the quality of life and they were given rights that serfs did not have. Over time, more and more people were given freedom to the point that there really is no more serfs. This change happened slowly but most of the these serfs becoming free were tied to war, plague and other factors. A lord needing to raise an army may offer freedom to a serf if he survived the period of military service.

Look to Vlad Dracul where he made lots of these promises. However, he also impaled many of these serfs who were not well trained and faltered on the battlefield. Not a place I would want to be as either a noble or anything lower. But it will give you a good indication of the way things were. In the Byzantine period, you may want to get copies of H.de Viecastel's works. He has illustrations and roles of slaves from the 6th to the 12th centuries. It's a good place to start. However, understand that this is more tied to western European custom than eastern where he often makes contrast to.


What you really want to look at is the laws and the rulings of Judges. In many kingdoms including Byzantine, Roman, England, Peria, China and India of the middle ages. Slavery was heavily regulated. There were many laws and many complaints concerning slaves and how slaves were to be bought, cared for, freed, sold and transferred. In some way, I think that the Roman variant of the 300sCE would be useful today. It would take care of the homeless and would prevent poverty where children starve and it would resolve debts or help some people in gaining an education or trade skills. But then, slavery in any form is no longer considered a valid option even though it would solve many of the social problems in the modern age.

Pablo

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Thank you for the information. Wow that is a lot.

I'd never thought of the Jubilee year in the Bible as a form of ending indentured servitude, but I guess that is what it is.
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The Cat
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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:
booktalker wrote:Hi pablo - interesting information about the kaaba. One thing, though - you say:
When Muhammad was a child and living with his grandfather, He witnessed these events. After all , Muhammad's grandfather was a priest of the kaba and of Komesh referred to in Arabia as Allah. That is fact not fiction. Truth sometimes hurts when its very specific like this.
How can you say with such certainty that what you said about Muhammad as a child is fact not fiction? Evidence suggests otherwise - maybe you haven't been watching The Cat's posts over the last few months, which you might find of interest... happy reading!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Best wishes
The Short answer to your question is more than likely the other way around. I was on FFI back when it was in its early history. I posted on Muhammad and his life for several years. All my research is my own! I think The Cat will even admit this truth.

There really is quiet a bit written about Muhammad and his life. However, 100% including the Koran was written after Muhammad had died....
According to nowadays studies most everything about Muhammad's life is a quite late fabrication
disproven by the discovering of the Abraha inscription which open the link given by booktalker...

This story-tellers concoction wanted to put the Abbasids among Muhammad's alleged ancestors.
Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was NO historical Muhammad as portrayed in the Islamic tradition (siras/hadiths), created centuries after his 'dead'...
And there was NO Mecca attested as an important pilgrimage/commercial center before at least 710AD, even much later !

MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpr ... ching.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 2943.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For an increasing number of Islamic historians, the tradition of Mohammed being the source and explanation of the Arab Conquest, wherein Arab tribesmen on horseback emerged out of the Arabian deserts to conquer Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and Spain in less than 80 years (636-712), stands history on its head. They demonstrate that the story of Mohammed uniting various Arab tribes as Genghiz Khan did for the Mongols, and providing them with the religious fervor to conquer in the name of Islam, is "sacred history," rather than real history.

Historian Gordon Newby explains: The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction.

This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some 200 years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around. While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu'l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed ("The Praised One"), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu'l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon....
And even this Al-Lah is misunderstood... for it came from a rather unknown Egyptian divinity: Lah/Yah
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bye...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by ringmaster »

A Muslim woman must dress as if her entire body were one gigantic vagina.

The koran was written especially to give the prophet access to lots of vagina.

The black stone at Mecca is shaped like a vagina.

Therefore allah is the god of the vagina.
The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a common criminal.

Please tell me if this is accurate:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

The Cat wrote:According to nowadays studies most everything about Muhammad's life is a quite late fabrication
disproven by the discovering of the Abraha inscription which open the link given by booktalker...

This story-tellers concoction wanted to put the Abbasids among Muhammad's alleged ancestors.
Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518

There was NO historical Muhammad as portrayed in the Islamic tradition (siras/hadiths), created centuries after his 'dead'...
And there was NO Mecca attested as an important pilgrimage/commercial center before at least 710AD, even much later !

MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527
Cat,

Not exactly correct but close. Muhammad did live in Mecca and did do some of the things in the traditions. However, you will find the problems and more specifically errors and falsehoods as well as other unflattering things from Muhammad and his close followers. After all, Muhammad was circling the Kaaba when he was being mocked by the non muslims and for good reason. They were seeing Muhammad doing the same pagan worship that they themselves did. You see this often even in the modern times when a religious figure does something outside what he had been proclaiming. They are mocked and people make fun of them doing the things that are outside the message they were professing.

The problem with Muhammad and Islam begins with Muhammad himself. Everything else is just window dressing which just broadens the picture of what Islam is. Muhammad out of his own mouth and out of the mouths of others which were made part of the Koran are damning enough to prove Muhammad is a false prophet and Islam is a false religion.

pablo

User avatar
The Cat
Posts: 2055
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by The Cat »

pablo wrote:Muhammad did live in Mecca and did do some of the things in the traditions.
Where and when was that exactly?

1) There was no one named 'Muhammad' in Arabia up to the end of the 6th century. We have no external proof of such a 'renowned' leader before the Doctrina Jacobi of around 634/640 where he is depicted as -newly appearing- brigand/warlord allied with the Jews. But, hey, according to the Islamic 'tradition' he died in 632 and was at enmity with the Jews! Now, the ‘Muhammadan’ formula, or the Shahada, only began to be used in the popular rock inscriptions of the central Negev sometime during the reign of Caliph Hisham (724-743AD).

2) There was no ancient city known as 'Mecca' up to the end of the 7th century in Arabia and certainly not a huge religious pilgrimage center or a trading place of enough importance to be mentioned. As such, Ta'if and Yathrib were known and so was Khaybar but not 'Mecca'.

Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_To ... udi_Arabia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the oldest external testimony we have, the Continuatio Byzantia Arabica (+/- 770AD), Mecca is located between Haran and Ur. Now this Ur wasn't in lower Mesopotemia but in the Chaldean Urkesh recently uncovered, so Abraham came from the Urartu area and he was of Hurrian descendance.

3) Now, ka'aba means a cube but also any protuberance at a base, especially the ankles. In Arabic ka'ab means the base of the shoe, any base like a valley (wadi). So it's not necessarily religious... What you came up with about Kubaba is quite interesting though, but ka'abas existed throughout Saudi Arabia, particularly in the Northwest Nabatean territory, so to single out 'Mecca's ka'aba is quite indigenous.

4) You talk about the Hittite 'Komesh' but, in a Middle-East context, he's the Moabite's Chemosh, from the Eblaite's Kamish. He's most likely too the Shamash of Syria (al-Sham), mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Now, Hubal (Ha-Ba'al) was a generic name meaning The Lord, used against Allah (another generic: The God) at the 'battle of Uhud', which thus should be called the Generic battle! Muhammad's grandfather reportedly prayed to Hubal and addressed him as Allah. That's because Hubal was known as "the Lord" and Allah, the Lord of the Kaaba, thus Allah was the Hubal of the Kaaba!

5) Your texts are still available from the old forum. Why trolling them back?
Part I: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part II: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part III: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13061" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part IV: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part V: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13397" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part VI: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13654" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

booktalker
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by booktalker »

I don't think pablo gets it - or does he now?!

pablo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Why did Mohammad kiss the black stone?

Post by pablo »

Oh I get what the Cat is saying.

Unfortunately, I had spent a good solid hour on a post. When I clicked submit, FFI had a crash and I lost the browser to my desktop and it was lost.

Since it was late and I was going on a trip, I did not try to reproduce the detailed response. I will reproduce it. I had spent time getting links and other items. All that time lost... Frustrating.

I will respond to the Cat in a day or so when I have more time.

The issue between the Cat and I are one of two points of view. Although I agree with some parts of what the Cat is saying, the general scope of his position is incorrect as to how he is trying to use the information. I will address that specifically when I have more time to spend. Right now, my children has several recitals which I will attend and takes away from other things that I do on the side like post in this forum.

pablo

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