250 Sons of Guns

[iandonlyhim]

Yea, freedom of speech is much complicated for you to understand, and yes you are right, even on this site there are restrictions. Yes Bill Maher was told to shut up - But all these restrictions are like this - "You want to work here, then dont say this - You are free to say all you want outside" so in other words, as a citizen you have all the rights but as employee Bill Maher doesnt have rights to say all he wants, likewise, as a subscriber of this site, you were told the rules beforehand and then you subscribed. So you agreed to follow the rules. Hopefully, you will see the difference that as a citizen I have freedom of speech but in Pakistan as a citizen you dont. But yea, freedom of speech is quite complicated.

Muslims situation is different we don't have any agenda to bash others prophets and religions. I can not imagine 4 muslims sitting and talking about Budha or Ram and bashing them. So even I being the most liberal/moderate muslim on face of earth can not remove the little fine and help different groups in their wicked agendas and settle old scores.

For this, I am just going to laugh because it is not true at all.

[Yohan]

iffo, Are you for or against the blasphemy law?

Its a very complex issue. I am against any sever punishment for insulting the prophet. It should be some small fine or something like this.

But one can can not just abolish it, because then Islam haters will exploit it and everyday there will be article in the paper calling Prophet name and people will not be able to do anything about it other than getting frustrated and stressed.

You got to understand Muslims mind their own business they don't go out abuse others prophets, because most of them are our own prophets so we can not. Even we don't insult Budha or Ram. But lot of Islam haters have bad things to say against Muhammad so we can not just abolish this law.

If you want a small fine for insulting the prophet, you are no 'liberal' Muslim as you claim to be. A liberal muslim is secular first, religion later. May be you missed the Muslim destruction of Bamian Buddhas, though I might agree that in general ordinary muslims avoid insulting other religions. This strange behavior comes from their fear of criticizing their own religion. But there are ways!

Here are the ways ordinary Muslims like you insult and intimidate other religions, its founders, and followers:
- Muslim countries prohibit or stonewall building of non-muslim places of worship.
- Non-muslims fear to live in muslim countries and leave at every opportunity.
- Muslims attack non-muslims at their places of worship
- Death penalty for Muslims converting to other religions
- Muslim countries make Islam the state religion
- Muslim countries make laws to prevent non-muslims from becoming leaders
- So on and on

[Yohan]

"A total of 34 people were killed extra judicially in Pakistan during 1990-2010 following charges of blasphemy, The Express Tribune has learnt.

The information obtained by the Tribune revealed that 15 of those killed were Muslims and 31 were killed in the Punjab.

16 of the murdered people were Christians, 15 Muslims, two Ahmadis and one a Hindu. All these people accused, of crimes under the blasphemy laws, were either killed extra judicially or found dead in prison under dubious circumstances.

Eight of these people died in the police custody. Five were killed by the police. One of them committed suicide and two were found dead in prison with the cause of their death unknown. Dr Mehdi Hasan, Human Right Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) chairperson, said that he believed that the extrajudicial killings raised questions in relations to the failure of the police security. “The HRCP has always been condemning such tragic incidents. We have long been campaigning for repeal of these laws,” he added.

Ali Dayan Hasan, the senior South Asia researcher at the Human Rights Watch, said that Pakistan would remain a laboratory for rights abuse in the name of religion if blasphemy laws were not repealed.

National Commission for Peace and Justice (NCPJ) is among the organisations calling for blasphemy laws repeal. NCPJ Executive Secretary Peter Jacob said, “In a society like Pakistan where people can be easily instigated into taking law in their hands, such laws should be immediately abolished.”

Religious scholar Javed Ahmad Ghamidi said that the Quran does not lay down a punishment for blasphemy. “In talking about these laws, one should understand the circumstances in which Ziaul Haq introduced them,” he said. He also said that the current laws were not Islamic."
http://tribune.com.pk/story/86694/blasp ... e-muslims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Yohan]

"Pakistani authorities have arrested a Muslim doctor on suspicion of violating the country's contentious blasphemy law by throwing away a business card of a man who shared the name of Islam's prophet, Muhammad, police said Sunday."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_pakistan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ram]

"Pakistani authorities have arrested a Muslim doctor on suspicion of violating the country's contentious blasphemy law by throwing away a business card of a man who shared the name of Islam's prophet, Muhammad, police said Sunday."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_pakistan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a clear case of misuse of the law. That means anyone who criticizes a Muslim whose name is Muhammad will be prosecuted under the blasphemy law. What if I say that Muhammad, the shopkeeper cheated me? Or, Muhammad, the milkman dilutes my milk with water, will I be accused of blasphemy? Be careful, anytime you talk to a Muhammad, you might end up on the death row. Muhammads must be feeling very powerful.

Some years ago, The Hindu published a story about a boy named Muhammad who was not very bright. That riled Muslims so much that they went on killing spree. Also, not to forget the story of a British school teacher in Sudan who let one of her pupils give the name Muhammad to a teddy bear, she was almost hanged.

[Ram]

LAHORE, Pakistan: Around 250 people staged a demonstration in the central Pakistani city of Lahore on Wednesday, warning the president not to pardon a Christian woman sentenced to death for insulting Islam.

They also denounced any attempt to change Pakistan’s blasphemy law, which critics say is often misused to persecute Christians like Aasia Bibi and other minorities. Her case has prompted outrage from human rights groups and a personal appeal from Pope Benedict XVI for her release

http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/24/proteste ... -bibi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Muslims respect the Prophets of Jews and Christians, why it is against the law to build synagogues and churches in every Muslim country? What kind of respect is that?

[iffo]

iffo, Are you for or against the blasphemy law?

Its a very complex issue. I am against any sever punishment for insulting the prophet. It should be some small fine or something like this.

But one can can not just abolish it, because then Islam haters will exploit it and everyday there will be article in the paper calling Prophet name and people will not be able to do anything about it other than getting frustrated and stressed.

You got to understand Muslims mind their own business they don't go out abuse others prophets, because most of them are our own prophets so we can not. Even we don't insult Budha or Ram. But lot of Islam haters have bad things to say against Muhammad so we can not just abolish this law.

If you want a small fine for insulting the prophet, you are no 'liberal' Muslim as you claim to be. A liberal muslim is secular first, religion later. May be you missed the Muslim destruction of Bamian Buddhas, though I might agree that in general ordinary muslims avoid insulting other religions. This strange behavior comes from their fear of criticizing their own religion. But there are ways!

Here are the ways ordinary Muslims like you insult and intimidate other religions, its founders, and followers:
- Muslim countries prohibit or stonewall building of non-muslim places of worship.
- Non-muslims fear to live in muslim countries and leave at every opportunity.
- Muslims attack non-muslims at their places of worship
- Death penalty for Muslims converting to other religions
- Muslim countries make Islam the state religion
- Muslim countries make laws to prevent non-muslims from becoming leaders
- So on and on

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

BTW I favor allowing others to build new worship places. What you talking about is discrimination which is every where in the world, blacks still complaining about it in USA, but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

[Ram]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

Muslims insult the religions, prophets and deities of non-Muslims on regular basis. If Muslims had the respect for non-Islamic religions they would allow building of their places of worship. The civilized countries have laws which treat all their citizens with equality. On the contrary, the discrimination in Muslim countries is enshrined in the legal code. This proves that Muslim countries are not civilized.

The countries with laws which give equal rights to all are better educated, richer are far ahead of Muslim countries.

BTW I favor allowing others to build new worship places. What you talking about is discrimination which is every where in the world, blacks still complaining about it in USA, but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

Pure Islamic logic. There is discrimination against Jews in the USA but Jews are free to build their synagogues and religious schools. There is discrimination in Pakistan too but still Hindus and Christians cannot build temples and churches.

[ThereIs1Adonai]

Ram,

Actually, Iffie was saying that Blacks in the U.S. still complain of discrimination. And yes, we know it exists, but is not officially sanctioned by the government as it is in Pakistan and other Muslim countries.

Iffie,

Blacks are not the only ones discriminated against. They also discriminate. However, in employment, education, and other areas, the LAW does not allow discrimination. The problem exists where it is difficult to prove. Nevertheless, it is not officially sanctioned by the government, and anti-discrimination laws, such as Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, exist.

Do you understand that Muslim nations have laws that encourage discrimination based on religion, such as anti-blasphemy laws? That is government sanctioned. That is the difference. In civilized nations, governments do not sanction discrimination by enforcing barbaric laws.

Peace, Shalom

[iffo]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

Muslims insult the religions, prophets and deities of non-Muslims on regular basis. If Muslims had the respect for non-Islamic religions they would allow building of their places of worship. The civilized countries have laws which treat all their citizens with equality. On the contrary, the discrimination in Muslim countries is enshrined in the legal code. This proves that Muslim countries are not civilized.

The countries with laws which give equal rights to all are better educated, richer are far ahead of Muslim countries.

BTW I favor allowing others to build new worship places. What you talking about is discrimination which is every where in the world, blacks still complaining about it in USA, but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

Pure Islamic logic. There is discrimination against Jews in the USA but Jews are free to build their synagogues and religious schools. There is discrimination in Pakistan too but still Hindus and Christians cannot build temples and churches.

Ram You have trouble understanding very simple thing. I will not repeat again. Not allowing the construction of a temple or church qualify as descrimination but not as insulting someone's prophet or god.

@ThereIs1Adonai
Trust me its not only non-muslim thing, if I say insulting things about Muhammad they will treat me just the same way.

[Yohan]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

BTW I favor allowing others to build new worship places. What you talking about is discrimination which is every where in the world, blacks still complaining about it in USA, but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

It is disrespecting of other religions, its founders and its followers, no matter what you claim. It is insulting other religions, not with words, but with actions. It has been so right from the prophet's, and the four caliph's times.

Discrimination against blacks in US has no legal standing, but discrimination by muslims against other religions had been codified into your laws. Whether you favor or not, actually, do not count in an islamic society. Only Islam counts, and Islam regally insults other religions by actions. If you publically air your opinion too strong, you will punished by Islamic laws.

[gizzin]

Any man made organised cult like Islam that beats its own kids into submission leaves the church of scientology well and truly behind in the market leaders.... there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.... only those that don't speak out. Fear is the rule of Islam and we all know it.... they just can't escape from it as an apostate is doomed to death for having an opinion outside of the collective.... they are the Borg or cancer of mankind and we can only ever deliver ourselves from them through outright war.

We have a duty to look after our own.... we owe them nothing.

[iffo]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

BTW I favor allowing others to build new worship places. What you talking about is discrimination which is every where in the world, blacks still complaining about it in USA, but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

It is disrespecting of other religions, its founders and its followers, no matter what you claim. It is insulting other religions, not with words, but with actions. It has been so right from the prophet's, and the four caliph's times.

Discrimination against blacks in US has no legal standing, but discrimination by muslims against other religions had been codified into your laws. Whether you favor or not, actually, do not count in an islamic society. Only Islam counts, and Islam regally insults other religions by actions. If you publically air your opinion too strong, you will punished by Islamic laws.

No you are wrong. You comparing apples and oranges. Desrimination and disrespect are two different things. I think I have said enough about it.

[piscohot]

but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

room for improvement?

what kind of positive things are they doing for non muslims in muslim countries that they can have further 'room for improvement', iffo?

[gizzin]

but yes I think there is room for improvement in muslim countries.

room for improvement?

what kind of positive things are they doing for non muslims in muslim countries that they can have further 'room for improvement', iffo?

Muslims will never make life easier for the Kaffir.... they will only ever make it harder until they convert you to the Borg way of collective thinking. You are bashing your head against a solid steel wall if you are looking for some kind of compromise. Islam does not compromise.

[Sten]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

Which do you think is worse, Iffo? Insulting people's religion, or not allowing them to practise their religion?

[bobs1244]

what you wrote is not disrespecting others prophets and religions. There is a huge difference between not allowing the construction of temple and saying "Budha was a mother fuccker" or "Ram's mother was a kunt".

Which do you think is worse, Iffo? Insulting people's religion, or not allowing them to practise their religion?

Exactly what I was going to point out! Iffo's sense of justice is all messed up. Muslims everywhere have complete freedom to practice their religion. And they have the freedom to respond if someone criticized their religion. That is how free speech works. One guy has the freedom to make an allegation while the other guy has the freedom to refute it.

This is a much better setup than what Islamic nations do - Humiliating non-muslims by restricting their freedoms.

And there's one other thing: if the blasphemy law is meant to stop abuse of free speech, then why is the definition of blasphemy limited to only abusing Mohammad? Anyone that abuses ANY religious figure on the face of the earth should come under equal purview of the blasphemy law. Only then can you claim that the law prevents abuse of free speech. Why is there a death sentence only for the abuse of Mohammad? Why is there no death sentence for abuse of, say, Sri Rama or Sri Krishna?

[ThereIs1Adonai]

@ Iffo


Consider what you said to me, that the law applies to you as well if you say something bad about your prophet. That means that YOU do not have freedom of religion, speech, expression. And why? Because of Muslim blasphemy laws.

Thank you for making the point that Islam is tyrannical enslavement of its people. I could not have said it better. YOU are not free!

Peace, Shalom

[iandonlyhim]

Iffo wrote:

No you are wrong. You comparing apples and oranges. Desrimination and disrespect are two different things. I think I have said enough about it.

Awsome! Simply awsome Iffo. So in your world discrimination, which you are against but still do not condemn, but disrespect is not. Nice. I see your logic - Discrimination is not against you so you are not going to Oppose it that loudly but disrespect also affects you so you want to punish people for it.

Dont worry though I am not 100% against what you are saying, I am also against abuse of freedoms accorded to us by our constitutions. So I agree with you that senseless disrespect is useless and creates unnecessary animosity. But freedom of speech is there so you can speak out when something is wrong. In Pakistan, you cant even speak out even when things are wrong. You see? In fact, for the sake of respect you have become so insecure that you arrest a doctor who threw a card in to garbage and he gets arrested, why? Because the card had a name of person that matched with your prophet - Mohammed.

And problem with limiting any freedom of speech, even if it is disrespect, is that once you start limiting, there are no limits of limiting and at the end of the day when you start limiting justice suffers and innocent gets punished and you see that happening in Pakistan everyday. These are the very fundamentals of freedom which you should understand because, let's just that that JUST IN CASE mohammed was a bad guy, truth will never come out in your countries. Forget west which is torch bearers of freedom but even in India, like pakistan, people complain about these little insults, but no law stops people from insulting Hinduism or Buddhism or Sikhism or Jainism. But even in India, due to intolerance of Muslims disrespect of Islam is a crime and cowardly government doesn't allow that.

Unfortunately, UK and other countries in EU are becoming like India - When you start making amendments to your core values of freedom like UK is doing everyday you are in essense being unjust to someone and country where justice does not rule become unpeaceful shitholes like Pakistan and up to a point like India and UK. But you can allow some freedom, even if it means disrespec to Mohammed, Mohammed who was a nice guy is never going to get hurt by it and your country will prosper. Isnt that a win-win situation?

Maybe someday you will understand what I spent my time writing here? I hope so.

[Ram]

Ram You have trouble understanding very simple thing. I will not repeat again. Not allowing the construction of a temple or church qualify as descrimination but not as insulting someone's prophet or god.

iffo, it is you who has the trouble understanding. But, let me ask you this, are you admitting that discrimination is okay but criticizing or insulting the Prophet is not akay? It is a fact that the discrimination against non-Muslims is lawful in Muslim countries.

But our laws are different, insulting religions and Prophets is legal but discrimination is illegal. Muslims have no right to complain till they stop discriminating against non-Muslims. Show some respect, then we can show some respect.