Sorry but the spinning mode was all yours, for you never disproved any of my points...Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:It is a pleasure to discuss with you, when you are not in the spinning mode.
Spinning #1: Nobody was the father of Jesus!
First you wrote that: ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'', which divinize him already.
For he was created from the Ruh of God (Breath), His Ruhullah. No doubt about it.
I've underlined that the Koran use of 'walid' -indicating a sexual filiation- to say 'son'
was something even Christians would agree on, for Jesus was His Spirit incarnated.
Quoting John Gilchrist:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Gilchrist/Vol2/5c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then I wrote, answering your assertion that ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'':In Surah 3.39 an angel announces to Zachariah that his son John (Yahya) will witness to a kalimatim-minallaah, "a Word from God", and in Surah 3.45 the angels, in announcing the conception of Jesus to Mary, speak of him as a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from Him".... In Surah 4.171 Jesus is called God's Word, not just a Word from God as in the two passages we quoted from the third Surah. ''Christ is called 'His Word', that is, 'God's Word'. The Arabic shows that it means 'The Word of God', not merely 'a Word of God'. (Kalimatullaah, not kalimatimmin kalimaatullaah)....
The Qur'an says no more of Adam than that "he learnt from his Lord words of inspiration" (Surah 2.37), that is, the kalimaat were sent down mir-rabbihi, "from his Lord", but in the case of Jesus it is said that he himself is the kalimatullah, the "Word of God"....
In Surah 3.45 we read that Jesus was a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from him". Now we read in Surah 4.171 that he was also a ruhun minhu, "a Spirit from him". On both occasions it is clearly stated that the source of the man who bears these titles is God himself. Jesus is his Word and his Spirit... Whereas David is called Khalifatullah ("Vicegerent of God") and Abraham Khalilullah ("Friend of God") as we have already seen, so now we find that the express title for Jesus in Islam is Ruhullah ("Spirit of God").
Agreed! But then it means that... you're plainly admitting Isa's Koranic divinity! Thanks...
Or is it that Allah being this 'nobody', Muslims are but worshiping a 'no one' as The One?
You've answered:
---How am I am admitting the divinity, when the man had zero divinity?
sum: viewtopic.php?p=135401#p135401" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your logic has gone and that is why you are running away from this thread. Your standing has reached a new low.
Spinning #2: Gabriel is the rasoolin Kareem
You admitted that, in 66.12, Gabriel plays no part. Then you came out saying that the Breath of God was given to an already made fetus or zygote of Jesus and I've pointed out that, then, Mary's body couldn't have been called chaste. As an angel who had to bow to Adam, without any will of his own, Gabriel is an automaton and as such cannot be honored. More so, in 81.19-20 the honored messenger is ''embued with Power, established in the sight of God, having authority to be obeyed.'' No angel can have such authority by its own, but... Isa (5.30/43.63).
So, about 3.59:
Now we can understand why the similitude with Adam in 3.59 only refers to Isa's human body.
The Koran states that Isa is the -abna Maryama- ie. belonging to the human race from Mary,
not only a flesh and blood prophet but a Revelation all by himself, sanctity incarnated...
Like Adam his body was created from nothing (dust) yet, unlike Adam, his Spirit is beyond time which is established in the first similitude:
The 'mathala' of Isa is being WITH Allah, while khamathala is Isa in the flesh created as Adam, perfected from the beginning as in 19.17:
We sent unto her Our Spirit (Ilayhā Rūĥanā) and it assumed for her the likeness (Fata-maththala) of a perfect man. Here again, NO Gabriel!
Still you wrote: ---Rasoolin Kareem has only been used for Gabriel, not for Jesus or others.
To which I've asked for Koranic proofs time and time again and you couldn't provide any...
Thanks for admitting that Gabriel is never mentioned as the Rasoolin Kareem.
The only honored prophet mentioned in the Koran is Isa, 3.45. Honored being the most often translation for ''bi-kalimatin''.
19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).
From 3.45 we must assume that the Rasoolin Kareem mentioned in 69.40 & 81.19 and intended in 86.13 as Jesus-Christ:
69.40: Certainly, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger
81.19: That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger
86.13: Most surely it is a decisive word...
Spinning #3
You wrote: I never tell a lie (which is lying upon a lie, about the word sulb):
Statement A: I have not read the entire discussion on that link but I have to agree with AhmedBahagt. He is right.
Statement B: I have not read AB's posts on this subject, so I would not comment.
A. You have read enough of it to make your mind;
B. You haven't read about it so you can't comment
You've lied even on the fact that you've lied! How's that!
Spinning #4
You wrote:
How can you apply Hebrew roots to Aramaic and Arabic words? The name Jesus is a corruption. Yeshua is Aramaic. Yashua or Joshua is Hebrew.... please note that the word Will carries no significance (in 18.24).... If you write Allah wills and "wills" is Jesus, the verb according to you, then it would mean Allah Jesuses (verb form).... So, Yeshua, a name of Aramaic is not Yashaa, a verb of arabic.
To which I've answered:
And quoting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;First of all you'd deserved to be stone to death for daring to say that Allah's will (want or wish) carries no significance:
the whole Koran is Allah's Will, want or wish! How can you be a Muslim and state something like that!
You're mixing everything up to fit your assertion, including the English Jesus. Pitiful attempt. Words change from one language to another.
In English, the root Yeshua is found in the common YES. ... Yes, it's a wonder why a proper name like Yeshua so became WILL in the Koran.
In 18.24; 9.27; 24.46; 30.48 and 42.19 it's always used as a verb, which instantly refer us to John 1.1: ''And the Word was God...''
Still again, the shared etymology is obvious: Yeshua (YS-h, Hebrew for Jesus) became Allah's Will (YS-h, Yasha'a: Arabic for will).Yeshua, spelled יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšūă‘) or ישוע in Hebrew, was a common name among Jews of the Second Temple Period, and is thought by scholars and religious groups to be the Hebrew or Aramaic name for Jesus. An argument in favor of the Hebrew reduced form ישוע Yeshua, as opposed to Yehoshua, is the Old Syriac Bible (c. 200 AD) and the Peshitta preserve this same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters ܝܫܘܥ. Yeshu.
In the Koranic context, we're not dealing with Yeshua as a named person, a 'son', but as the Spirit and Word of Allah, His Ruhullah.
Or, as I've answered to AB about his 'Yasoo':
The root stems from different influences, silly you. The Koranic Yashaa (YS-h) coming right from the Hebrew Yeshua (YS-h).
When will you stop confusing modern Arabic with Classical? Greek with Hebrew? The Greek Gospels with the Koran's Arabic?
The Koran defines Yeshua as Allah's Yasha'a (ie. John's Logos), like it or not.
19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).
Yasha'a/Isa was much more than just another prophet/messenger like Muhammad. He's a timeless Revelation and Mercy to mankind!
Spinning #5:
You wrote:
You have not tried to show us that an ISA can be derived out of this. With Mashallah, you would get MSA. How can MSA be Jesus?
I've answered:
It's not Jesus I was talking about here, silly, it's Masih (Messiah), Mā šāʾ Allāh (ما شاء الله), Masha Allah: MS-h: "God has willed it".
The name ISA being itself a title right from the Hindu Isa Upanishads, and... Yasha'a from Yeshua!
You too, yet be careful with all this spinning around...Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:Have a good day.