Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

His life, his examples and his psychology
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yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

What if Muhammad was a myth and Islam a Gnostic teaching?
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpr ... ching.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Myth of Mecca Jack Wheeler
Freedom Research Foundation Monday, Sept. 24, 2001
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 2943.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An Anti-Biography of the Founder of Islam The Mohamed Myth
http://en.qantara.de/webcom/show_articl ... &wc_id=760" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Gotcha - thanks.

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

That article by Jack Wheeler is a great resource.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Let's have some excerpts from it (thanks yeezevee, emphases mine)...

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 2943.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For an increasing number of Islamic historians, the tradition of Mohammed being the source and explanation of the Arab Conquest, wherein Arab tribesmen on horseback emerged out of the Arabian deserts to conquer Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and Spain in less than 80 years (636-712), stands history on its head. They demonstrate that the story of Mohammed uniting various Arab tribes as Genghiz Khan did for the Mongols, and providing them with the religious fervor to conquer in the name of Islam, is "sacred history," rather than real history.

Historian Gordon Newby explains: The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction.

This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some 200 years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around. While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu'l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed ("The Praised One"), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu'l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon (**)....

Al-Rawandi summarizes what then happened:

Once the Arabs had acquired an empire, a coherent religion was required in order to hold that empire together and legitimize their rule. In a process that involved a massive backreading of history, and in conformity to the available Jewish and Christian models, this meant they needed a revelation and a revealer a Prophet whose life could serve at once as a model for moral conduct and as a framework for the appearance of the revelation. Hence (Ubu'l Kassim was selected to be the Prophet), the Koran, the Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet), and the Sira were contrived and conjoined over a period of a couple of centuries. Topographically, after a century or so of Judaeo-Moslem monotheism centered on Jerusalem, in order to make Islam distinctively Arab an inner Arabian biography of Mecca, Medina, the Quraysh, the Prophet and his Hegira (flight from Mecca to Medina alleged in 622, Year One in the Islamic calendar) was created as a purely literary artifact. An artifact, moreover, based not on faithful memories of real events, but on the fertile imaginations of Arab storytellers elaborating from allusive references in Koranic texts, the canonical text of the Koran not being fixed for nearly two centuries. (p.104)

Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina, is a myth, a "baseless fiction." This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working in Islamic studies today. They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear.



---(**) Note: al-Lah (Lah/Yah) is an Egyptian moon-god of old (not very well known) I think symbolizing time as in lunar calendars.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Another interesting thread from the old forum is that of 'Popeye'.
Hidden Origin of the Koran (with interesting posts from Kereng).
It's based on the publication of a K-H Ohlig/Gerd-R Puin book.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56994" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some quotes from 'Kereng':
---The point is: Muhammad existed and preached as a prophet but most likely not in Mekka and he did not author all of the koran. The koran has older and later parts and the meaning of MHMD differs. The first coins with MHMD are from the east of Iran and the word travels west with the years. Muawia opened his inscription at the bath of Gadara with a cross and the Ummayads made coins that show John the Baptist and a cross. Abd al-Malik awaited the coming of Jesus (with the sword). Maybe the first "caliphs" had never heard of a prophet Muhammad and the koran. John of Damascus (~730) talked with Ismaelites who told him about a prophet Muhammad, but he did not mention that his king was a member of this heretic sect.

---The Mecca story started later. The Continuo Byzantia Arabica of the chronicle of Isidor (second half of 8th century) mentions a battle ...
"... apud Maccam, Abrahae, ut ipsi putant, domum, quae inter Ur Chaldaeorum et Carras Mesopotamiae urbem in heremo adiacet"
"... in Mecca, Abraham's house, as they [the Arabs] believe, that is located in the desert between Ur in Chaldea and Carras, a city in Mesopotamia". (Ohlig, Der frühe Islam S.368).

---The Aramaic word for confederate is "qarama". The Arabic form is "quraish". (!!!)

---Abd al-Malik was not a caliph. Western Islam-science generally made the mistake to trust the muslim traditions.

---Muawia's and Abd al-Malik's Christianity was not the Roman-Byzantine mainstream but far from the Islam as we know it today.

---Islam did not become state religion before the Abassid dynasty

---John of Damascus did not know the koran but some surahs, even the Camel of God which is not a part of the koran today. He classified the Ismaelites as a heresy, not as another religion.
The first to identify the new trend as a religion of its own is Theophanes The Confessor (760/818).
He's also the one who used Koreysh to talk about the Arabic tribes allied to Heraclius against Persia.
So, again, the hadith use of quraysh to mean a specific tribe related to Mecca is dismantled.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Dear The Cat - One cliffhanger left from the first page of your post, which I don't think you dealt with:
Next: So Who Was The Historical Muhammad?
Well, I think he is known as one of his companion...
And it just happens that he was 'Muhammad' too!
He also had a brother called 'Mahmud'. Who's that?
So who was the brother?

Well, as I said, now I'm heading back into the mists of time, to trace this story of humans and mysteries right back to its root, if I can. If I don't come back, you'll know where to look for me...

(Somewhere in here: http://www.forgottenagesresearch.com/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Love

BTx

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Well, Theseus got into such a maze. Just don't forget some Ariadne's ball of string. :lighten:

About ibn Maslamah and his brother Mahmud, we got most of it from the sira of Ibn Ishaq.
Thinking about it, how strange that he and Salman aren't that quoted in the hadiths as shahaba !
Is it pointing to what I think: that both of them were mix to form the legendary Muhammad?

Well, some links about he and his brother...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Maslamah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Muhammad ibn Maslamah died in Medina, April 666 at the age of seventy five.
His brother Mahmoud ibn Maslamah killed in Al-Khandaq battle against unbelievers.
He was involved in the expulsion of the Banu Nadir from Medina.
He was married and fathered two sons.
(pls. I don't know about them...)

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Arti ... slamah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Kinana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

this thread has lot of Resource material.. May be some of it you put in to resource center with same heading dear TheCat..
http://digital.library.ksu.edu.sa/paper2562.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

on Arabs in Makkah in Pre-Islamic Period and Their Religious, Commercial and Social Roles

Although Makkah was regarded as ethnically Arab there were foreign races that lived in the city. Makkah had its own commercial and religious importance which encouraged others to come and settle there during the 5th and 6th centuries A.D. Among these foreigners were many slaves of different races and colors whom were brought from Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and Ethiopia. These slaves had many different cultural backgrounds. Slaves served their masters at homes, in agriculture, industry, pasturing and protecting their masters and trading caravans. In addition to the slaves others came to Makkah such as some Jews and Christians whom came seeking to find the last prophet. Some foreigners had political purposes to come to Makkah in connection with Byzantium or Sassanian Empires. Makkah had also special female slaves for dancing and singing. Some of these females were prostitution and were known as of red flags. According to foreign religions, there were more Christians than Jews in Makkah. Even so neither of them tried to spread their religions in Makkan society and they tried to live in peace with the pagans.

http://digital.library.ksu.edu.sa/V43M343R2561.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That PDf file is in Arabic and off course it is from king university of Sand Land..

with best
yeezevee

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

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phill01 wrote:Hi Cat...One of the best reads to date in my view....very interesting stuff indeed. I posted in anqother threas about where three qiblas of the oldest Mosque pointed to being: Al Ula before reading this thread. The evidence just keeps stacking up that Mohammas was from the Al Ula area.

Keep up the good work
Indeed dear phill01, and I found compelling evidences for that... Look at this!

The Mecca build-up is debunked in 33.27, Muhammad never was in Mecca!
He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth,
and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things.


This is a Medina verse (90th), inducting that Mecca hasn't been trodden yet! In 37.136-38 (56th) the former land of the Prophet
seems to be volcanic: ''Then We destroyed the others. And lo! ye verily pass by (the ruin of) them in the morning And at night-time;
have ye then no sense
?'' Not at all in the nowadays vicinity of Mecca, but of the Al-Ula/al-Hijr (Hegra) region, thus the Hegira !

As you've said, the oldest Qiblas weren't pointing toward Mecca but way up North,
That is in the direction of al-Ula/Hegra (Hijr) thus the former meaning of Hegira !
Image

http://www.historyofmecca.com/historica ... .htm#qibla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The direction of the Qibla of the mosques in Wasit, Baghdad and Cairo actually triangulate to a location near Al-`Ula (which was Dedan - inhabited perhaps as early as the 8th century BC). In other words the Qiblas indicate a position almost 500 miles to the north-northwest of Mecca.

Here's a Wikipedia article on "Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia" which does not include Mecca, because Mecca is not an ancient town. The article does mention a town of: "Mada'in Saleh: also called Al-Hijr, this is an ancient city located in northern Saudi Arabia.... Mada'in Saleh is considered to be one of the most important and oldest ancient cities in the country. Mada'in Saleh lies to the northwest of the city of al-Ula..."
Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia -no Mecca, but Mada'in Saleh (Hijr/Hegra) only 25 miles away from Al-Ulah (Thalmudic Dedan).-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_To ... udi_Arabia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All of this only confirming my deductions in this very thread
viewtopic.php?p=93474#p93474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

Amazing ! Isn't it ? The Mecca of Islam is a historical blunder, most probably the all-time biggest falsification !!!

Next, I'll expand on the very possibility that Mt Horeb or Mt Sinai was in fact in this Midian region... of which al-Ula is the southernmost.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

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:clap:

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

I watched a video last year (and showed it as part of the dorm Bible Study) by Bob Cornuke demonstrating the real location of Mt. Sinai. The geography of the Sinai Peninsula doesn't match the biblical account, but the area just east of the Gulf of Aqabah does. There is a mountain there too which the locals call Jebel Musa, and there is a giant stand with carvings of cows on it, plus markers to set the boundaries, also matching the Biblical account. The mountain is called Jebel al-Laws today.

DVD of Search for the Real Mt Sinai

Hardcover book "In Search of the Mountain of God"

Also very good, you can watch a condensed version on Youtube (if it's still up).

Exodus Revealed

Perhaps we should open another thread to discuss the mountain, since this was supposed to be a thread about Muhammad. :wacko:
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

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Ibn Rushd wrote:Perhaps we should open another thread to discuss the mountain, since this was supposed to be a thread about Muhammad. :wacko:
Hi Ibn Rushd... Thanks for the links! :victory:

I think, from the informations I'm slowly gathering, that this thread will fit alright.

For if Moses' Mount Sinai (or Mount Horeb) are indeed Jebel al-Laws (Allah?) there is also a strong possibility that Kadesh Barnea,
which must have been a huge oasis to supply so many people, was in old wadi al-Qura (!) area: Mada'in Saleh or Tayma, ie. Mecca !

Was this Nabonidus' Stele, portraying some kind of Golden Calf in... Tayma, the original Kaaba?
Image
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

iffo
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by iffo »

I have read few posts of cat. I am still confused whether cat is muslim or non-muslim. Whether he believes in Muhammad to be prophet or not?

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

iffo wrote:I have read few posts of cat. I am still confused whether cat is muslim or non-muslim. Whether he believes in Muhammad to be prophet or not?
I really doubt that the Cat is a Muslim. :roll:
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Hello peeps - some of you (you know who you are) might be able to help me (though I admit I'm being lazy) - are there any topics on here that go as far as to set out the most likely evolution of a) the qur'an and b) ahadith, from where they might have started out (are there really papyrus fragments with qur'anic lines on that can be unequivocally said to have originated in 6th / early to mid 7th century?). I'm also interested to work out how and why the final version of the qur'an and ahadith ended up as they have - is there a path one can follow to see how we got from a - z? Why this message and not another one? Who decided that the qur'an should carry this message, and why? And how come the adadith go into such minute details? Are any of these details actual surviving fragments from someone who was saying these things in the 6th / early 7th centuries? (I'm asking the same questions about Christianity and am still unsure how come the Christian message of "Turn the other cheek" had favour but was ousted by those who wrote the qur'an and replaced it with the original "Eye for an eye" - presumably it didn't suit their desire for power and booty?). Or any good reference books on these subjects? Sorry, too many questions. Anyway I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Thanks! BT x

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

So far I have only found this book to actually tackle this head-on without cowing down.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Thanks Ibn Rushd - looks interesting, I'll check it out. x

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

yeezevee wrote:this thread has lot of Resource material.. May be some of it you put in to resource center with same heading dear The Cat..
Ibn Rushd wrote:I watched a video last year (and showed it as part of the dorm Bible Study) by Bob Cornuke demonstrating the real location of Mt. Sinai. The geography of the Sinai Peninsula doesn't match the biblical account, but the area just east of the Gulf of Aqabah does. There is a mountain there too which the locals call Jebel Musa, and there is a giant stand with carvings of cows on it, plus markers to set the boundaries, also matching the Biblical account. The mountain is called Jebel al-Laws today. (...)

Perhaps we should open another thread to discuss the mountain, since this was supposed to be a thread about Muhammad. :wacko:
Well, I'll both answer your call as I am about to publish something in Resource Center, probably called: Which Way to Mecca?
I'll be HUGE including many, revised and ordered, posts I've made herein (and elsewhere) PLUS my reached conclusion that:

1) The biblical Mount Horeb and nearby Meribah/Massah are truly situated in Midian, near Al-Bad: Jebel Al-Laws and its 'black stones'
Image

ImageImage

2) That Mount Sinai is most probably a different place, namely the volcano named Hala'l Bedr, close to Al-Ula and Hegra (Mada'in Saleh)!
Image

3) That the biblical 'Kadesh Barnea' (holy + wandering) could be a generic for any place with water reached after a long and dry wandering.

I'll edit this post, as soon as this HUGE file is about completed in the Resource Center, to give the link (or look over there).

Well... after weeks of compilations, researches and revisions, it's finally on FFI's map... In our Resource Center!

MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of 'Mecca'
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Enjoy ! :yahoo: :cheers:
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

Idesigner
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Idesigner »

Whether Mohemmad was real, mythical or a fairy tale character like Peter Pan is of no consequence to victims of Islam.

Like all NT or OT prophets, messangers , apostles or great teachers like Zarthust & Budhha , Mohemmed's life is also shrouded in mystery, that does not mean they were all product of fertile imagination of beilvers who compiled holy books few hundred years after their death.Even lives of all Mormon prophets, Jim Jones and Koreshes look mysterious and in few generations believers make them larger than life.. Of course its very easy for rationalists to discard absurdities and miracles associated with them.

Many people seriously doubt historical Jesus.Roamn chroniclers of time did not mention Jesus when he preached or when he was crucified. He was a composite character of some crazy jew prophet murdered by other jews some 100 years before the Christ of Peter, Paul ,Mary Luke and Mark. :*)

Mo born few hundred years before or after must have done same thing and must have preached same fanatic religion as the Mo we know now.

Are those letters sent to kings and chieftaians on behalf of Mohemmed ( King of Iran, Yemen etc) fake? Some letters are found in museum of Istambul.

Looks like this whole Mohemmaed myth business is a conspiracy on behalf of Koran only muslims. As his biography, Hadith, Sunna etc puts him in same category as Gheghiz, Hitler and Pol Pot, die hard muslims want to disown him.. Good luck to them all :lol: And Kaffirs dont let them fool you. Sufis of Iran fooled you before!! They made Ali perfect human being and god incarnate!!

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Are we replying to your new topic on Mecca here? Lovin' it... One thing, though - wrt Ishmael - (this from Sam Shamoun who you already refer to):
The Qur'an did not mention the name of the sacrificial son, and hence Muslim historians disagree in this regard.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sacrifice.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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